FeelDeMusic:
Ok, so of course I had to jump on this thread as I'm very curious about the Yoruba Ifa religion.... Vaxx or anyone else who may be able to answer, are there any other kind of spirits in the Yoruba religion/mythology, not talking about Orisa here, but just any other sort of beings/creatures that the Yoruba believe in? For example the British/Irish believe in fairies and the Icelandic believe in elves....

According to Yoruba cultural myth, we also believe they are some unseen natural element that dwells in the tree , rocks and some other mystical dwelling places, they are called EBORA, IWIN, egbere.... there is a myth that if you can collect egbere mat, you will suddenly become rich, this egbere cries without pause. that is just is nature

CuteMadridista:


Good!

There are several gods in the Yoruba Pantheon? how did these gods come about? were they created by Olodumare straight? were they just humans elevated to gods status by Olodumare or Man?

yoruba traditional religion is monotheistic , there are no several gods in yoruba tradition, what we have is simply orisha when you put it into Yoruba syllable, it is spell like this... ori- ti- a- sha(meaning, the head we specifically selected)traditionally our believe system is characterized by a deep sense of the interdependence of all life. “Every life form and element of Nature has an inner soul force – including rivers, rocks, clouds, metals, flowers, thunder, and the wind. These natural energies that comprise
are symbolically represented by the orisha. most of the orisha were once with us... for example. orunmila is from oke igbeti , he has a wife known as apetebi likewise sango the son of aganju and so many more of them that has earthly biological background like i and you.

CuteMadridista:
Also @vaxx

Are Olodumare and Eledumare the same entity?

this needs to do with dialect, both are technically the same, in addition . the definition of OLO-DU-TO -MARE in his deeper meaning means the owner of the container of creation and his great blessing, olodumare is a single creative force. The Universe in it’s entirety springs from that single source.this is where it differ from deistic concept and that of pantheism we regard the Orisa as energy and not Olodumare . we believe he is a consciousness. A consciousness big enough to encompass the entire of creation. Everything we know is part of Olodumare, as is everything we are yet to discover.

vaxx:
According to Yoruba cultural myth, we also believe they are some unseen natural element that dwells in the tree , rocks and some other mystical dwelling places, they are called EBORA, IWIN, egbere.... there is a myth that if you can collect egbere mat, you will suddenly become rich, this egbere cries without pause. that is just is nature

Hmmmm, interesting... so not really creatures like trolls or gnomes or whatever, more like different energies?

FOLYKAZE:


Firstly, a deistism is a philosophical position that holds that God (in this case here Eledumare) does not interfare with the world. Thia posit that God is the source of everything and in a perfect condition but there is absenss of divine intervention. This is a fact because no one has ever engage Olódùmarè directly. There is no dedicated shrine or prophet that speaks with him.

Ori is the spark of consciousness and it is integral part of all the entities that exist in the physical world. Ori is not peculiar to only human and that mean that we are not the only conscious entity out there. Maybe what you mean by consciousness is sentience. But the Yoruba people hold that emi (life) and ori (consciousness) is present in every entity that exist. Emi in this case is not biological life but energy. Have you ever wondered there are aboku soro in Yoruba community? Do dead talks? This implies that what we assume dead is only biologically dead but still very much alive as a form of energy.

All the animals you can think about has their owm special Ashe. And this includes the trees and inanimate objects. Therefore, one cannot say that Eledumare is anthropocentric.

Ajoguns who are malevolent agents of Esu can cause one or whole community calamity. This is why Yoruba people appease Esu not to unleash his agent on them with this saying, Èṣù máse mi, ọmọ èlò mi ni ki o se

I agree that everything has its own ase, or energy, similar to the concept of "chi" in Chinese spirituality. However, are you proposing that Esu is in fact, or at least has the capacity to be evil? Why is this?

vaxx:
bro, i will not spoon feed you, i want you to see beyond what i have written... so critically analysed the statement and get back to me...

there is nothing to analyse,I didn't get your reply and I'm asking you to give a clear one

FOLYKAZE:


There are lot of mix-up here.

1. Human life according to the Yoruba traditional belief is predetermined in Ajule Orun.

2. Ajogun is an evil spirit that offers nothing other than lose and calamities. Ajoguns are the agent of Esu. And the only way to pull them away is through appeasing with Ebo.

3. Member of Ajogun is death, sickness, depression, loses and pain. You haven't explain how any of this emanated from human behaviour.

let me put some enlightenment here, in the domain of ajala mopin , some irreversible decision were made which are both physical and spiritual , the physical decision include your gender, race, color DNA, blood group and some other element you have no control over, while the spiritual side are made in two area which are Apari-inu represents character; Ori-Apere represents destiny.

Destiny itself is also divided into three areas: Akunleyan, Akunlegba, and Ayanmo. Akunleyan is the request you make at Ajale's domain- what you would like in specifics during this lifetimes. The number of years you wish to live, the kinds of success you hope to achieve, the relationships you desire, the wisdom you seek to accumulate. Akunlegba are those things given to you to help you achieve these things. Both Akunleyan and Akunlegba can be modified or enhanced by symbolical sacrifice and ritual throughout our lives. Ayanmo is that part of our destiny which cannot be changed: our gender, race, sexuality etc. APARI INU , your character can never be changed unless bad habit is doped in favor of good habit.... therefore the ajogun and his symbolic war lords are necessary to appreciate and understand the concept of benevolent universe, instantiation of evil are the handwork of natural being.... imagine if there is no death, how will you appreciate birth, if there illness how will you appreciate good health, if there is no poverty, how will you appreciate wealth......it is all for the purpose of a balance society..... as good as rain might be, imagine a 365 days of a year non stopping rain without a stop, will farmers still called it good? All these opposite effect of mankind are necessary for a balance society as they are not necessarily anti olodumare.... as you put it... nothing like demons in Yoruba cosmology , it is fabrication to suit biblical or Islamic concept.

FOLYKAZE:


Firstly, a deistism is a philosophical position that holds that God (in this case here Eledumare) does not interfare with the world. Thia posit that God is the source of everything and in a perfect condition but there is absenss of divine intervention. This is a fact because no one has ever engage Olódùmarè directly. There is no dedicated shrine or prophet that speaks with him.

Ori is the spark of consciousness and it is integral part of all the entities that exist in the physical world. Ori is not peculiar to only human and that mean that we are not the only conscious entity out there. Maybe what you mean by consciousness is sentience. go the Yoruba people hold that emi (life) and ori (consciousness) is present in every entity that exist. Emi in this case is not biological life but energy. Have you ever wondered there are aboku soro in Yoruba community? Do dead talks? This implies that what we assume dead is only biologically dead but still very much alive as a form of energy.

All the animals you can think about has their owm special Ashe. And this includes the trees and inanimate objects. Therefore, one cannot say that Eledumare is anthropocentric.

Ajoguns who are malevolent agents of Esu can cause one or whole community calamity. This is why Yoruba people appease Esu not to unleash his agent on them with this saying, Èṣù máse mi, ọmọ èlò mi ni ki o se

I never said olodumare is anthropocentric, i said the center notion of man is anthropocentric. i will oblige you to read my comment again... deism understanding of GOD is simply his acknowledgement, with a position that he does not intervene with what he created but this is differ from Yoruba cosmology that posit that Olodumare is the (discern-er of hearts—‘he who sees the inside and the outside of man’.) He is active in celestial and terrestrial affairs, Olodumare is able to do all things; he is the enabler of all who achieve any ends. this is why praises and prayer are render to him by babalawo before anything is done, mo juba akoda , mo juba aseda(olodumare]though olodumare has no temples of worship nor does he have consecrated priests, But all ifa priests give offerings and give reverences to him. olodumare conveys his will and order to the children consecrated to the orisha of Orunmila.

ALL animal apart from human are lower conscious being

ALL force which you may term as evil and good were also created by him too, including death . At first men did not die. They grew to an immense size, after which they shrank into feeble old people. Because there were so many of them around, so men prayed to Olodumare , begging him to free them from long life, and in this way the old ones died." just to balance the system

shadeyinka:
@ vaxx

When Christians notice a demonic problem in a person, the demons are never appeased : they are driven out.

Now in (Yoruba) ATR, apart from sacrifices (appeasement) are demons (malevolent spirits) also driven out? and howw if it is done?

i just said it there is nothing like anti god in Yoruba traditional believe.... every thing is created for a particular purpose....if you rephrase your question like how do babalawo carry out spiritual cleansing because of any opposite occurrence, i may give you the preamble.

vaxx:
let me put some enlightenment here, in the domain of ajala mopin , some irreversible decision were made which are both physical and spiritual , the physical decision include your gender, race, color DNA, blood group and some other element you have no control over, while the spiritual side are made in two area which are Apari-inu represents character; Ori-Apere represents destiny.

Destiny itself is also divided into three areas: Akunleyan, Akunlegba, and Ayanmo. Akunleyan is the request you make at Ajale's domain- what you would like in specifics during this lifetimes. The number of years you wish to live, the kinds of success you hope to achieve, the relationships you desire, the wisdom you seek to accumulate. Akunlegba are those things given to you to help you achieve these things. Both Akunleyan and Akunlegba can be modified or enhanced by symbolical sacrifice and ritual throughout our lives. Ayanmo is that part of our destiny which cannot be changed: our gender, race, sexuality etc. APARI INU , your character can never be changed unless bad habit is doped in favor of good habit.... therefore the ajogun and his symbolic war lords are necessary to appreciate and understand the concept of benevolent universe, instantiation of evil are the handwork of natural being.... imagine if there is no death, how will you appreciate birth, if there illness how will you appreciate good health, if there is no poverty, how will you appreciate wealth......it is all for the purpose of a balance society..... as good as rain might be, imagine a 365 days of a year non stopping rain without a stop, will farmers still called it good? All these opposite effect of mankind are necessary for a balance society are they are not necessarily anti olodumare.... as you put it... nothing like demons in Yoruba cosmology , it is fabrication to suit biblical or Islamic concept.

Wow, interesting! So ajogun are more like man-made creations as a result of their bad behavior and the genral opposits of life? If so this is pretty interesting and revealing....

FeelDeMusic:

I agree that everything has its own ase, or energy, similar to the concept of "chi" in Chinese spirituality. However, are you proposing that Esu is in fact, or at least has the capacity to be evil? Why is this?

Yes, it has capacity to be evil because he control the Ajoguns; and can be the best thing.

vaxx:
i just said it there is nothing like anti god in Yoruba traditional believe.... every thing is created for a particular purpose....if you rephrase your question like how do babalawo carry out spiritual cleansing because of any opposite occurrence, i may give you the preamble.

I speak with respect to the messengers of Esu( Ajoguns) They are malevolent (I call them demons). Demons do no good to anyone (maybe let's not consider whether they are anti God or not) hence Christians do not negotiate with them nor appease them; instead, we force them out.

Now my question is when these malevolent spirits from Esu are afflicting a person, apart from appeasement, do Yoruba ATR also force them out?

If yes, how?

FeelDeMusic:

Wow, interesting! So ajogun are more like man-made creations as a result of their bad behavior and the genral opposits of life? If so this is pretty interesting and revealing....

He is not getting it that way, he is seeing ajogun as supernatural being with other opposite of life as being on their own..... forgetting that , yoruba ATR uses an expression called symbolical format... that is why we represent egungun as an ancestor... egungun are simply human being who hide under the cover of a mask... they are just symbolical representation , yoruba also uses stones to represent esu, iron to represent ogun, thunder to represent shango etc...

vaxx:
I never said olodumare is anthropocentric, i said the center notion of man is anthropocentric. i will oblige you to read my comment again... deism understanding of GOD is simply his acknowledgement, with a position that he does not intervene with what he created but this is differ from Yoruba cosmology that posit that Olodumare is the (discern-er of hearts—‘he who sees the inside and the outside of man’.) He is active in celestial and terrestrial affairs, Olodumare is able to do all things; he is the enabler of all who achieve any ends. this is why praises and prayer are render to him by babalawo before anything is done, mo juba akoda , mo juba aseda(olodumare]though olodumare has no temples of worship nor does he have consecrated priests, But all ifa priests give offerings and give reverences to him. olodumare he conveys his will and order to the children consecrated to the orisha of Orunmila.

The question is does HE interfare directly with Mankind and the physical world? If yes, tell us how and if No, that approves he his deistic.

vaxx:
ALL animal apart from human are lower conscious being

Ifa holds that everything that exist has an Ori. And it is known that Ori in Yoruba is consciousness. Hence, everything, including animals and inanimate are conscious. Yoruba philosophy is centered on panpsychism

vaxx:
ALL force which you may term as evil and good were also created by him too, including death . At first men did not die. They grew to an immense size, after which they shrank into feeble old people. Because there were so many of them around, so men prayed to Olodumare , begging him to free them from long life, and in this way the old ones died." just to balance the system

What

Death is not evil? Sickness is not evil? Hunger and disease is not evil? Barrenness and lots are not evil? I have not heard or read about any generation that rejoice over sickness, death and epidemic diseases.

And the point you laid that people do not die is an unholy junk from Abrahamic religion. Death is an integral part of existence as it. While it is not the complete end, Yoruba people believe that it is a point of transition to Ajule Orun into the ancestors realm. Yoruba people have long believe that the physical realm is a market place and heaven is the home. How do we return home if not through death? And there is no verse in Ifa that postulate that at a point in the past, man does not die. So I do not really understand where you came about your submission that one does not die at first. Where is that from?

Oyeku meji speaks more on death. That corpus is termed the baba yeku yeku. I havent notice what you said in that Odu once. Maybe you can help with a verse. Thanks

vaxx:
let me put some enlightenment here, in the domain of ajala mopin , some irreversible decision were made which are both physical and spiritual , the physical decision include your gender, race, color DNA, blood group and some other element you have no control over, while the spiritual side are made in two area which are Apari-inu represents character; Ori-Apere represents destiny.

Destiny itself is also divided into three areas: Akunleyan, Akunlegba, and Ayanmo. Akunleyan is the request you make at Ajale's domain- what you would like in specifics during this lifetimes. The number of years you wish to live, the kinds of success you hope to achieve, the relationships you desire, the wisdom you seek to accumulate. Akunlegba are those things given to you to help you achieve these things. Both Akunleyan and Akunlegba can be modified or enhanced by symbolical sacrifice and ritual throughout our lives. Ayanmo is that part of our destiny which cannot be changed: our gender, race, sexuality etc. APARI INU , your character can never be changed unless bad habit is doped in favor of good habit.... therefore the ajogun and his symbolic war lords are necessary to appreciate and understand the concept of benevolent universe, instantiation of evil are the handwork of natural being.... imagine if there is no death, how will you appreciate birth, if there illness how will you appreciate good health, if there is no poverty, how will you appreciate wealth......it is all for the purpose of a balance society..... as good as rain might be, imagine a 365 days of a year non stopping rain without a stop, will farmers still called it good? All these opposite effect of mankind are necessary for a balance society as they are not necessarily anti olodumare.... as you put it... nothing like demons in Yoruba cosmology , it is fabrication to suit biblical or Islamic concept.

We will like to know the benevolent side of Iku (death). Thanks

Folykaze, are you an Ifa believer? Shadyyinka, are you a Christian? CuteMadridista, what are you? I'm not asking this out of malace, just wanting to know beliefs so that I can get a better perspective here on where everyone is coming from.

@Vaxx, interesting response.

FOLYKAZE:


Yes, it has capacity to be evil because he control the Ajoguns; and can be the best thing.

Ok. So Esu is sort of both good and bad? Hmm.

shadeyinka:


I speak with respect to the messengers of Esu( Ajoguns) They are malevolent (I call them demons). Demons do no good to anyone (maybe let's not consider whether they are anti God or not) hence Christians do not negotiate with them nor appease them; instead, we force them out.

Now my question is when these malevolent spirits from Esu are afflicting a person, apart from appeasement, do Yoruba ATR also force them out?

If yes, how?

when affliction befall a man, the first things the babalawo do is consulting ifa (oracle) to a ascertain the reason behind the calamity, since individual ori are difference, so the person ori will determine what the babalawo will do, it may be simple ritual cleaning in form of ebos and prayer or simply . a lay down instruction so that the person will not commit taboo. sometimes this calamity are blessing in disguise, and to be noted the ebos is a symbolical representation,no orisha eat sacrifice.... the most important is droping bad habit for good ones....that is why it normally comes with taboo ...

vaxx:
He is not getting it that way, he is seeing ajogun as supernatural being with other opposite of life as being on their own..... forgetting that , yoruba ATR uses an expression called symbolical format... that is why we represent egungun as an ancestor... egungun are simply human being who hide under the cover of a mask... they are just symbolical representation , yoruba also uses stones to represent esu, iron to represent ogun, thunder to represent shango etc...

All you've written above is hogwash. No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more. So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, are you an Ifa believer?

A spiritual athiest with a passion for Isese. Not an Olorisha but an adherent

FeelDeMusic:

Ok. So Esu is sort of both good and bad? Hmm.

Everything have the positive and negative aspect.

Esu also bless person

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, are you an Ifa believer? Shadyyinka, are you a Christian? CuteMadridista, what are you? I'm not asking this out of malace, just wanting to know beliefs so that I can get a better perspective here on where everyone is coming from.

@Vaxx, interesting response.

I am an atheist but I have an inquisitive mind as I love hearing both sides of a story before making a conclusion

(Almost)Every info I have on the Yoruba Traditional belief has been given to me by people from the Abrahamic faith and they may not be in the best position to give authentic info on ATR without being blinded by the bias brought about by the religion they belong to

FOLYKAZE:


All you've written above is hogwash. No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more. So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

i will prefer you watch your tongue when replying me, pls i deserve to be respected just like you did. you can simply type you disagree.... by giving me reasons which i should explain...


first of all the Yoruba do not have a "heaven" that the dead roam around in and chat to each other as you are insinuating . Such a place is completely superstitious. you need to be able to seperate superstitious believe from the original one... The Yoruba word "orun" does not equate to heaven but just means the spiritual realm. It is not a "place" but a part of the dual aspect of the one world which is a union of the physical and spiritual.

when a person dies, they don't go to a "heaven" but their spirit lives on thru you. They literally live in your blood. A part of their spirit eventually finds another genetic relative to reincarnate thru via the blood/DNA. This is the practical understanding of the egungun as the spiritual aspect of your physical DNA and not the human being that cover himself in mask

The Egungun's role is only to help us carry out the plans we have devised. Only Egungun (revered ancestors) can do this; they are distinct from just Egun (ancestor, any dead person). When one becomes Egungun, they have the power to positively help you via your veneration of them. so it is not the person in mask but the revered ancestor... their thought, their heroism while they were alive...

read my post again, i have explain in details the concept of ajogun.... pls i will not be repeating myself....i will only be explaning what i have not touch.... i cannot be going in cycle...

FOLYKAZE:
A spiritual athiest with a passion for Isese. Not an Olorisha but an adherent

Ok.. so yes and no? You don't really believe in God but you enjoy the Yoruba spiritual system, am I correct?

I'd appreciate it if we keep arguments to as minimal a level as possible

FeelDeMusic:

Ok.. so yes and no? You don't really believe in God but you enjoy the Yoruba spiritual system, am I correct?

I enjoy the philosophy

vaxx:
i will prefer you watch your tongue when replying me, pls i deserve to be respected just like you did. you can simply type you disagree.... by giving me reasons which i should explain...

You are only distorting the concept of Orisha by eliminating the real essence and this cannot be accepted.

When a body of water in Ondo state has a dedicated shrine and purported force called God by adherent, it is an insult for someone to write some junk calling that God ordinary water.

You buddy should be the one that needs to apologise for calling the Deity of some people simply 'a man hiding under veil'.

vaxx:
first of all the Yoruba do not have a "heaven" that the dead roam around in and chat to each other as you are insinuating . Such a place is completely superstitious. you need to be able to seperate superstitious believe from the original one... The Yoruba word "orun" does not equate to heaven but just means the spiritual realm. It is not a "place" but a part of the dual aspect of the one world which is a union of the physical and spiritual.

Baseless. The Egungun dwell in Orun. Everyone knows that what I am referring to Heaven is Orun of the Yoruba cosmo.

vaxx:
when a person dies, they don't go to a "heaven" but their spirit lives on thru you. They literally live in your blood. A part of their spirit eventually finds another genetic relative to reincarnate thru via the blood/DNA. This is the practical understanding of the egungun as the spiritual aspect of your physical DNA and not the human being that cover himself in mask

My dear, you do not just create words without any reference to Ifa. All you wrote up there is absent in Ifá.

The dead ones can always be call upon through oro. This is what Ifa said. And when they are called upon, they respond as Alaye. Also they can be invoked to amend or appease on behalf of his/her heirs.

vaxx:
The Egungun's role is only to help us carry out the plans we have devised. Only Egungun (revered ancestors) can do this; they are distinct from just Egun (ancestor, any dead person). When one becomes Egungun, they have the power to positively help you via your veneration of them. so it is not the person in mask but the revered ancestor... their thought, their heroism while they were alive...

When one speak from both sides of his mouth, he loses his respect. Were you not the one that said Egungun is simply a man hiding behind a veil?

To the emboldened, the ritual, atonement and ceremony for Egungun is all because of thoughts, heroism and achievements while they were alive? Where do you get this nonsense from?

vaxx:
read my post again, i have explain in details the concept of ajogun.... pls i will not be repeating myself....i will only be explaning what i have not touch.... i cannot be going in cycle...

All you have written in your previous post doss not address my question. What is Ajogun and please tell us the benevolent aspect of Ajogun

FOLYKAZE:


You are only distorting the concept of Orisha by eliminating the real essence and this cannot be accepted.

When a body of water in Ondo state has a dedicated shrine and purported force called God by adherent, it is an insult for someone to write some junk calling that God ordinary water.

You buddy should be the one that needs to apologise for calling the Deity of some people simply 'a man hiding under veil'.




Baseless. The Egungun dwell in Orun. Everyone knows that what I am referring to Heaven is Orun of the Yoruba cosmo.



My dear, you do not just create words without any reference to Ifa. All you wrote up there is absent in Ifá.

The dead ones can always be call upon through oro. This is what Ifa said. And when they are called upon, they respond as Alaye. Also they can be invoked to amend or appease on behalf of his/her heirs.



When one speak from both sides of his mouth, he loses his respect. Were you not the one that said Egungun is simply a man hiding behind a veil?

To the emboldened, the ritual, atonement and ceremony for Egungun is all because of thoughts, heroism and achievements while they were alive? Where do you get this nonsense from?



All you have written in your previous post doss not address my question. What is Ajogun and please tell us the benevolent aspect of Ajogun

cutemadridista, i am dropping my pen here... maybe the new dude can educate us or what do you think?

vaxx:
He is not getting it that way, he is seeing ajogun as supernatural being with other opposite of life as being on their own..... forgetting that , yoruba ATR uses an expression called symbolical format... that is why we represent egungun as an ancestor... egungun are simply human being who hide under the cover of a mask... they are just symbolical representation , yoruba also uses stones to represent esu, iron to represent ogun, thunder to represent shango etc...

cutemadridista how do understand this, is there any problems with been sincere while writing. i am trying as much as possible to separate superstition from reality.....that is only what i did here

vaxx:
cutema. dridista, i am dropping my pen here... maybe the new dude can educate us or what do you think?

The thread is for you and a question has been thrown at you. Do us a favor by telling us what Ajogun is and the benevolent aspect of Ajogun.

You even madd some think Ajogun is Manmade. Lord

LOL! All of this arguing is pointless and stupid. Since I really don't know much about Ifa, I can't attest to Vaxx or Folykaze's posts as truth or not. But as CuteMadridista has said, let's not fight! Please.... ejo, Jẹ kiLẹ gbogbo wa ni ifẹ.

Let's be charitable with each other please, each person should state his answer and we move to the next one

ATR doesn't have a Holy spirit that Christians claim communicates to every Christian so its okay if there are differences amongst ATR believers