shadeyinka:


Some are gods , from Zeus himself

Yes, you're right Shadeyinka... some Orisa were once humans who have been leveled up to god status.. and some are Irunmole... directly from Olodumare who have never been humans before ever.

FeelDeMusic:

Yes, you're right Shadeyinka... some Orisa were once humans who have been leveled up to god status.. and some are Irunmole... directly from Olodumare who have never been humans before ever.

..my point is that vaxx insists that orishas are not gods!

shadeyinka:


I think you are bent on forcing new definitions in order to "purify" the thoughts and knowledge about the Yoruba ATR.

Orisa are deities who are worshiped by the Yoruba's
Deities are non other than gods because they are worshiped.

We have Oju'bo (a place to sacrifice/worship) Ogun. Every sacrifice I know is to a god.

I know you would havebloved to redefine Orisa as "selected heads- literal) but no! Orisa does not mean selected heads. Yoruba is a tonal language and as such Orisa (do do do) does not mean Orisa (re mi do). They mean different things.

You saying that Yoruba's don't have gods but orisa is akin to saying that Yoruba's don't get angry they only can Bi'nu.

I think the Yoruba gods are just like the Greek gods. Not just energy fields or force. Some pure humans, some a hybrid between humans and gods and some are gods , from Zeus himself

if trying to be practical and honest means ''purify'' to you then i cannot fight it out.... orisha are consider to be intermediaries between men and GOD.The veneration of orisha helps their follower to reach supreme source...AKA olodumare...so can you please educate us on the true definition of orisha? if my literally meaning is unacceptable to you , orisha is not translated to anything like olodumare ... i am sure you aware...

let me tell you about ojubo..... ojubo is simply a symbolic focal point... we are not worshipping the sculptures in them nor the shrine . They are just visual focal points.

We only worship the true God, Olodumare. He is not a sculpture or a shrine. He is the source of the universe itself.

you are bringing your own version of Yoruba GOD now. An hybrid between human and GOD is strange to yoruba concept... this is your own assertion

please try and wth this video, she is an authority on the subject( prof sophie oluwole )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025BvqyFyTQ

vaxx:
if trying to be practical and honest means ''purify'' to you then i cannot fight it out.... orisha are consider to be intermediaries between men and GOD.The veneration of orisha helps their follower to reach supreme source...AKA olodumare...so can you please educate us on the true definition of orisha? if my literally meaning is unacceptable to you , orisha is not translated to anything like olodumare ... i am sure you aware...

let me tell you about ojubo..... ojubo is simply a symbolic focal point... we are not worshipping the sculptures in them nor the shrine . They are just visual focal points.

We only worship the true God, Olodumare. He is not a sculpture or a shrine. He is the source of the universe itself.

you are bringing your own version of Yoruba GOD now. An hybrid between human and GOD is strange to yoruba concept... this is your own assertion

please try and wth this video, she is an authority on the subject( prof sophie oluwole )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025BvqyFyTQ

We both know that not a single shrine or ojubo exist for Olodumare. Olodumare is to big to be approached. That is why the Yoruba's go through the smaller gods.

The only Yoruba god that may be referred to as a force is Iku. Iku (death) is not worshiped, neither is there any shrine for Iku.

The Professor Mrs tried but she is telling half truth.

Let's start with this:
1. Yemoja is supposed to be the mother of Ol'okun. Tell me , if both of them used to be human, tell me where they came from and what they did to be deified?
2. Ol'okun is another!

3. Esu Elegbara:
Was he also a deified human?

4. Obatala:
Supposed second son of oluorun(if I am not mistaking). Was he also formally human

Oh yes!
Others like Sango, Oya, Osun etc were formally human and if you like, you may even equate them to saints however the three listed above are not in that same category, hence they are fully gods.

So, you can see why I insist that the Yoruba's worship several gods even though they recognize the Almighty God called Eledumare or Oluorun(Ol'orun).

FeelDeMusic:

Hmmm, well Folykaze, you make a very interesting case and, from all of the information you've provided on this thread, perhaps you're a bit more truthful than Vaxx is. Again, I really can't say yes or no as I'm not extremely familiar with Ifa so I can't really say whether either of you is truly right in what you both say.

Also on the concept of aje/iyami, Vaxx proposed that they are not evil necessarily, but that they are not good either. They have powers both good and bad, and, from the book that I've read, the Yoruba believe that they control the world. Is this true?

Aje that I know about are antagonist of Orisha and Human being. They are popularly called Eleye

shadeyinka:

..my point is that vaxx insists that orishas are not gods!

LOL! Well I wouldn't call them "gods" in the western sense, but they're certainly not just objects or whatever... they're energies, yes, but they're also, I believe, capable of being human or whatever they want to be.. I'm actually writing a story where Ifa plays a significant roll in the lives of these three characters, it's a fantasy novel, and I portray the Orisa as having a human form and a deity form... for example Ogun is tall, big, and muscular with a full head of hair, angular features, and arms and legs almost twice as long and thick as his body, this is his human form. However as an Orisa, he suddenly morphs into a human-looking creature, made of what looks to be a combination of iron and skin, you can almost see magma pulsing through his body, his hands are made of dirt and rock and his teeth are giant gleaming stalagtites... he carrys a huge belt with all sorts of weaponry, and he's probably around twenty feet tall!

shadeyinka:

We both know that not a single shrine or ojubo exist for Olodumare. Olodumare is to big to be approached. That is why the Yoruba's go through the smaller gods.

The only Yoruba god that may be referred to as a force is Iku. Iku (death) is not worshiped, neither is there any shrine for Iku.

The Professor Mrs tried but she is telling half truth.

Let's start with this:
1. Yemoja is supposed to be the mother of Ol'okun. Tell me , if both of them used to be human, tell me where they came from and what they did to be deified?
2. Ol'okun is another!

3. Esu Elegbara:
Was he also a deified human?

4. Obatala:
Supposed second son of oluorun(if I am not mistaking). Was he also formally human

Oh yes!
Others like Sango, Oya, Osun etc were formally human and if you like, you may even equate them to saints however the three listed above are not in that same category, hence they are fully gods.

So, you can see why I insist that the Yoruba's worship several gods even though they recognize the Almighty God called Eledumare or Oluorun(Ol'orun).

Since you cannot accept the prof academical prowess on the matter, i will not be taking you serious too. she is an authority, well known on the new coined subject AFRICAN PHILOSOPHY... i think you need to learn much about her......it is seriously an insult to the prof for you to say she is speaking half truth.... she challenged peoople like you in the video... she said provide where the yoruba identify sango, ogun and obatala and the rest as olodumare? i will be awaiting your response on it...

Again there is nothing like smaller gods in yoruba ATR, No yoruba literature or contemporary language proves that orisha are known as olorun kekere, .....literally Olodumare has no shrine of his own, but he is worshiped in any form of shrines that is of your choice. it is not limited to one shrine, that will defeat the yoruba understanding of giving meanings to every natural element, an osun devotee understand beauty of God through the power of imagination that are associated with joy and beauty in form of visual art and the use of mirror . TO the devotee, she is is the symbolical object of all things that evoke true beauty also with obatala that is represented by white clean cloth which also symbolized purity and cleanliness.... all these gives each devotee their line of belonging so that this imagination can be manifested into physical world... therefore dedicating a shrine for olodumare alone will practically defeat this objective .


ok , i have spoken about esu, so i will not be repeating myself....

Yemoja is the orisha of trance in IFA:This trance is symbolized by the currents of the river, for which Yemoja is associated. The trance state is defined as the state where your consciousness has stepped aside so that the subconscious rises to lead your conscious state. whenever you are doing something without thinking about it for example , driving a car, riding a bike or walking, etc, is trance. so devotee acknoweldge the subconscious importance. so directly, the trance state of Yemoja is most expressed thru things you do out of habit. It is your habits that determine your success or failure in life. It is only when you are in control of your habits that you can then direct your trance to give birth to a multitude of offspring (symbolized by the fish because of its multitude of offspring. Hence Yemoja's name means "Mother of Fishes". there are many literature surronding how yemoja come on board, but to be specefic, i shall take you through the poems of those who venerate the orisha. it goes like this

Mo juba awo Yemoja.

Iwo ni Ayaba Iya.

Iwo ni Iya Orisha.

Iwo ni Inu Iye Odidi.

Iwo ni Ifihan Ti Abo Ase.

Iwo ni Inu Aiye.

Iwo ni Orisha Obinrin Okun Nla ati Odo.

Iwo ni Oluwa Awo Ti Abo Ipilese.



I humble myself before the mystery of Yemoja.

You are the Queen of Mothers.

You are the Mother of the Orisha.

You are the Womb of all Life.

You are the Feminine Manifestation of the Ase.

You are the Womb of the World.

You are the Goddess of the Oceans and Rivers.

You are the Owner of the Mystery of the Feminine Principle.

FOLYKAZE:


Aje that I know about are antagonist of Orisha and Human being. They are popularly called Eleye

Ok.

FeelDeMusic:

LOL! Well I wouldn't call them "gods" in the western sense, but they're certainly not just objects or whatever... they're energies, yes, but they're also, I believe, capable of being human or whatever they want to be.. I'm actually writing a story where Ifa plays a significant roll in the lives of these three characters, it's a fantasy novel, and I portray the Orisa as having a human form and a deity form... for example Ogun is tall, big, and muscular with a full head of hair, angular features, and arms and legs almost twice as long and thick as his body, this is his human form. However as an Orisa, he suddenly morphs into a human-looking creature, made of what looks to be a combination of iron and skin, you can almost see magma pulsing through his body, his hands are made of dirt and rock and his teeth are giant gleaming stalagtites... he carrys a huge belt with all sorts of weaponry, and he's probably around twenty feet tall!

The question i should pose then should be :
"Who/What are gods?"

I will accept that Energies are Inanimate
gods on the other hands are personalities (living beings)
It dosnt matter if the living beings are Physical or Spiritual. As long as they are "persons", they are gods.

You have described Orisa Ogun as a person, how then can he just be an Energy?

shadeyinka:

The question i should pose then should be :
"Who/What are gods?"

I will accept that Energies are Inanimate
gods on the other hands are personalities (living beings)
It dosnt matter if the living beings are Physical or Spiritual. As long as they are "persons", they are gods.

You have described Orisa Ogun as a person, how then can he just be an Energy?

Ok, you're right. You're right. I guess I get confused with all this sh*t because I just don't know everything. Forgive me, don't expect me to know everything as I'm just learning myself. I don't want to have to start an argument.. my personal belief is that energies are things that can be manipulated, that may have sentience in a sort of way, they're not gods but they are self-aware in some sense... it's hard for me to explain.

Again, please let's not fight over things like this, I only came here to learn as did you.

vaxx:

Since you cannot accept the prof academical prowess on the matter, i will not be taking you serious too. she is an authority, well known on the new coined subject AFRICAN PHILOSOPHY... i think you need to learn much about her......it is seriously an insult to the prof for you to say she is speaking half truth.... she challenged peoople like you in the video... she said provide where the yoruba identify sango, ogun and obatala and the rest as olodumare? i will be awaiting your response on it...

I did not mean to insult the Prof.
I am not insinuating that she isnt an authority in her field.
BUT
Shes human isnt she?
And as humans, its normal to be biased. like Christian Scientists are biased by the bible in interpreting some scientific facts which relate to creation or the origin of the Universe.

Yorubas don't ever mix up the other gods with Eledumare. Never!
There is a difference between (capital) God and (small) god. And the Yorubas recognize that so much.

g[/b]ods are NEVER small [b]G[/b]ods or Little [b]G[/b]ods (Olorun ke ke ke) with the Yorubas.

she said provide where the yoruba identify sango, ogun and obatala and the rest as olodumare

Of course we know that Yorubas dont do that. The orishas are distinct from Olodumare.
The Orisha serve Eledumares purpose on the earth

Even if she says Orishas are equivalent to Angels, they would still be [b]gods

vaxx:

Again there is nothing like smaller gods in yoruba ATR, No yoruba literature or contemporary language proves that orisha are known as olorun kekere, .....literally Olodumare has no shrine of his own, but he is worshiped in any form of shrines that is of your choice. it is not limited to one shrine, that will defeat the yoruba understanding of giving meanings to every natural element, an osun devotee understand beauty of God through the power of imagination that are associated with joy and beauty in form of visual art and the use of mirror . TO the devotee, she is is the symbolical object of all things that evoke true beauty also with obatala that is represented by white clean cloth which also symbolized purity and cleanliness.... all these gives each devotee their line of belonging so that this imagination can be manifested into physical world... therefore dedicating a shrine for olodumare alone will practically defeat this objective .

maybe, you should define the meaning "god"?

Our definition of gods seems very different:
For me gods are personalities (living beings) worshiped by human being
It doesn't matter if the living beings are Physical or Spiritual.
It doesn't matter if they are living or dead
As long as they are "persons", they are gods.

If we speak to them and we expect them to hear us, they are personalities

vaxx:

ok , i have spoken about esu, so i will not be repeating myself....

Yemoja is the orisha of trance in IFA:This trance is symbolized by the currents of the river, for which Yemoja is associated. The trance state is defined as the state where your consciousness has stepped aside so that the subconscious rises to lead your conscious state. whenever you are doing something without thinking about it for example , driving a car, riding a bike or walking, etc, is trance. so devotee acknoweldge the subconscious importance. so directly, the trance state of Yemoja is most expressed thru things you do out of habit. It is your habits that determine your success or failure in life. It is only when you are in control of your habits that you can then direct your trance to give birth to a multitude of offspring (symbolized by the fish because of its multitude of offspring. Hence Yemoja's name means "Mother of Fishes". there are many literature surronding how yemoja come on board, but to be specefic, i shall take you through the poems of those who venerate the orisha. it goes like this

Mo juba awo Yemoja.

Iwo ni Ayaba Iya.

Iwo ni Iya Orisha.

Iwo ni Inu Iye Odidi.

Iwo ni Ifihan Ti Abo Ase.

Iwo ni Inu Aiye.

Iwo ni Orisha Obinrin Okun Nla ati Odo.

Iwo ni Oluwa Awo Ti Abo Ipilese.



I humble myself before the mystery of Yemoja.

You are the Queen of Mothers.

You are the Mother of the Orisha.

You are the Womb of all Life.

You are the Feminine Manifestation of the Ase.

You are the Womb of the World.

You are the Goddess of the Oceans and Rivers.

You are the Owner of the Mystery of the Feminine Principle.

Check the bolded.
Yemoja is a godess

shadeyinka:

We both know that not a single shrine or ojubo exist for Olodumare. Olodumare is to big to be approached. That is why the Yoruba's go through the smaller gods.

The only Yoruba god that may be referred to as a force is Iku. Iku (death) is not worshiped, neither is there any shrine for Iku.

The Professor Mrs tried but she is telling half truth.

Let's start with this:
1. Yemoja is supposed to be the mother of Ol'okun. Tell me , if both of them used to be human, tell me where they came from and what they did to be deified?
2. Ol'okun is another!

3. Esu Elegbara:
Was he also a deified human?

4. Obatala:
Supposed second son of oluorun(if I am not mistaking). Was he also formally human

Oh yes!
Others like Sango, Oya, Osun etc were formally human and if you like, you may even equate them to saints however the three listed above are not in that same category, hence they are fully gods.

So, you can see why I insist that the Yoruba's worship several gods even though they recognize the Almighty God called Eledumare or Oluorun(Ol'orun).

My point with yemoja are two
1. Yemoja is a personality (she has at least one child - Olokun)
2. Yemoja is NOT human ( i stand to be corrected)

So are Esu and Olokun

Hence, Yemoja or Esu or Olokun cannot be equivalent to the Catholics Saints as proposed by the Eminent Professor

If they are not saints, who are they if not gods!

As said before Orisha is NOT small Eledumare!

shadeyinka:

I did not mean to insult the Prof.
I am not insinuating that she isnt an authority in her field.
BUT
Shes human isnt she?
And as humans, its normal to be biased. like Christian Scientists are biased by the bible in interpreting some scientific facts which relate to creation or the origin of the Universe.

Yorubas don't ever mix up the other gods with Eledumare. Never!
There is a difference between (capital) God and (small) god. And the Yorubas recognize that so much.

g[/b]ods are NEVER small [b]G[/b]ods or Little [b]G[/b]ods (Olorun ke ke ke) with the Yorubas.



Of course we know that Yorubas dont do that. The orishas are distinct from Olodumare.
The Orisha serve Eledumares purpose on the earth

Even if she says Orishas are equivalent to Angels, they would still be [b]gods


maybe, you should define the meaning "god"?

Our definition of gods seems very different:
For me gods are personalities (living beings) worshiped by human being
It doesn't matter if the living beings are Physical or Spiritual.
It doesn't matter if they are living or dead
As long as they are "persons", they are gods.

If we speak to them and we expect them to hear us, they are personalities



Check the bolded.
Yemoja is a godess




My point with yemoja are two
1. Yemoja is a personality (she has at least one child - Olokun)
2. Yemoja is NOT human ( i stand to be corrected)

So are Esu and Olokun

Hence, Yemoja or Esu or Olokun cannot be equivalent to the Catholics Saints as proposed by the Eminent Professor

If they are not saints, who are they if not gods!

As said before Orisha is NOT small Eledumare!

you just insult the prof by saying, she is speaking half truth, it indirectly means she has half knowledge of what she claims to be an authority on.... it is a serious offence to be bias in any academic discipline, in fact your authority can be revoked when your claims is objectively defeated.... I am surprised to read Christian scientist can be bias on important subject, that is a big blow on the face of christanity, and i found it as a shame to them and that is intellectual dishonesty. prof sophie is well known figure , a simple goggle search will tell you more about her.....

for the last time, orishas are not gods, i have explained the concept of God and orisha on this thread earlier, but i will be doing it again to honor you. in Ifa monotheistic, we believe in a single creative force known as Olodumare. The Universe in it’s entirety springs from that single source. Unlike the Orisa, Olodumare is not an energy but rather a consciousness. A consciousness big enough to encompass the entire of creation. Everything we know is part of Olodumare, as is everything we are yet to discover. according to yoruba cosmology, every life form or element of nature has a life meaning everything is an energy but inanimate and animate object....

orisha are simply the channel will use to reach olodumare, they are not smaller gods. do not treat Yoruba tradition in a western sense. only one God is recognized in yoruba tradition and he s known as olodumare, olodumare may be given many names like :Eledumare, Eleda, Olorun, olofin orun, Adeda, Aseda, Alase, etc. The list is endless. mean same thing as Olodumare because we are just using different name to refer to one entity. But Olodumare is the real yoruba name for God and all others names Are secondary to Olodumare. olodumare is spell like this olo- du- to mare . (THAT IS AN ENTITY THAT IS SO ENORMOUS OR BIG YET WE CAN NOT ASCERTAIN IT LOCATION )Odu mean a very big clay pot. while mare means something we are not ascertain literarilly... but the deeper meaning goes like this, THE OWNER OF CONTAINER OF CREATION AND EVERLASTING BLESSING...All these definitions are both acceptable.

ofcourse , orisha is wrongly translated as gods but that is a grammatical blunder on the side of the english translator , not the yoruba language itself..... the word is ''oluwa'' i am sure you know the application of this word, in yoruba society, your husband can be term oluwa ,A slave can call his master oluwa, kings and powerful men in society are referred as oluwa. they can never be refer as olodumare.. oluwa simply means en ti o ni mi( the one whose owns me) it is not the same with adeda( the creator)in fact it is apply as secondry name of olodumare. just like my lord is differ from my GOD.


the myth behind yemoja is so much that it may be difficult to know which one is correct. as you know, the religion is not documented properly like Christianity and islam. what are available are mostly inn form of oral literature that is pass down from one generation to the olders.... but we can hold the truth from the saying of the people who venerate this orisha .... iyemoja is the mother of all orisha... obatala is the father of all orisha........ that is what i can tell for now

vaxx:
you just insult the prof by saying, she is speaking half truth, it indirectly means she has half knowledge of what she claims to be an authority on.... it is a serious offence to be bias in any academic discipline, in fact your authority can be revoked when your claims is objectively defeated.... I am surprised to read Christian scientist can be bias on important subject, that is a big blow on the face of christanity, and i found it as a shame to them. prof sophie is well known figure , a simple goggle search will tell you more about her.....

for the last time, orishas are not gods, i have explained the concept of God and orisha on this thread earlier, but i will be doing it again to honor you. in Ifa is monotheistic we believe in a single creative force known as Olodumare. The Universe in it’s entirety springs from that single source. Unlike the Orisa, Olodumare is not an energy but rather a consciousness. A consciousness big enough to encompass the entire of creation. Everything we know is part of Olodumare, as is everything we are yet to discover. according to yoruba cosmology, every life form or element of nature has a life meaning everything is an energy but inanimate and animate object....

orisha are simply the channel will use to reach olodumare, they are not smaller gods. do not treat Yoruba tradition in a western sense. only one God is recognized in yoruba tradition and he s known as olodumare, olodumare may be given many names like :Eledumare, Eleda, Olorun, olofin orun, Adeda, Aseda, Alase, etc. The list is endless. mean same thing as Olodumare because is just using different name to refer to one entity. But Olodumare is the real yoruba name for God and all others names Are secondary to Olodumare. literarilly, olodumare which the s is spell like this olo- du- to mare . OLODU (THAT IS AN ENTITY THAT IS SO ENORMOUS OR BIG YET WE CAN NOT ASCERTAIN IT LOCATION )O mean a very big clay pot.... but the deeper meaning goes like this, THE OWNER OF CONTAINER OF CREATION AND EVERLASTING BLESSING...All these definitions are both acceptable.

ofcourse , orisha is wrongly translated as gods but that is a grammatical blunder on the side of the english translator , not the yoruba language itself..... the word is ''oluwa'' i am sure you know the application of this word, in yoruba society, your husband can be term oluwa ,A slave can call his master oluwa, kings and powerful men in society are referred as oluwa... oluwa simply means en ti o ni mi( the one whose owns me) it is not the same with adeda( the creator)in fact it is apply as secondry name of olodumare. just like my lord is differ from my GOD.


the myth behind yemoja is so much that it may be difficult to know which one is correct. as you know, the religion is not documented properly like Christianity and islam. what are available are mostly inn form of oral literature that is pass down from one generation to the olders.... but we can hold the truth from the saying of the people who venerate this orisha .... iyemoja is the mother of all orisha... obatala is the father of all orisha........ that is what i can tell for now

Sorry if it sounded like I am insulting the Eminent Professor, buy I am certainly not.

I am just querying some of her points: raising objections. Objections are valid ways of learning when a counter to the objections are provided.

I remember in primary school when we just learned when to use 'a' or 'an' as a prefix to a noun. Our teacher came one day to say 'a European' and we all protested that it should be 'an European'. He had to give us evidences and convincing arguments before we were convinced.

That is what I am doing. The Prof said some things against my preconceived notion hence , I need a superior counter argument to satisfy me. I don't think this has been done except a repetition of your position and an appeal to the fact that Professors cannot be wrong.

I am sure that the problem is our different definition of the term gods.

We know who Olodumare is: the Almighty, The Creator, God

What/Who do you call gods?

The bone of contention is that (your claim)
1. Orisas are not gods
2. Orisas used to be humans (hence equivalent to saints)

shadeyinka:

The question i should pose then should be :
"Who/What are gods?"

I will accept that Energies are Inanimate
gods on the other hands are personalities (living beings)
It dosnt matter if the living beings are Physical or Spiritual. As long as they are "persons", they are gods.

You have described Orisa Ogun as a person, how then can he just be an Energy?

I very much love knowledge seekers like yourself. However, if your interest in this subject is what I think it is then you need to stay away from VAXX's posts thereon and look for guys with empirical knowledge on this stuff I can't fathom how I made is through his litany of hogwash. I believe the real initiates (I'm not one) here would've seen that the guy is not a practitioner but a theorist Ifa priest.

Although he's claiming to be an atheist, FOLYKAZE has made much more sense and more invaluable contributions to this thread than our wannabe initiate. I'm impressed.

FeelDeMusic:

Ok, you're right. You're right. I guess I get confused with all this sh*t because I just don't know everything. Forgive me, don't expect me to know everything as I'm just learning myself. I don't want to have to start an argument.. my personal belief is that energies are things that can be manipulated, that may have sentience in a sort of way, they're not gods but they are self-aware in some sense... it's hard for me to explain.

Again, please let's not fight over things like this, I only came here to learn as did you.

OK.
We can't quarrel over small matters like this.

I know that the modern Yoruba ATR practitioners wish to establish a strict monotheistic concept on ATR to promote acceptability. The only way out is to say the Irumales and Orisas are energies.

If they are just energies, how can they be self aware.
I agree that Orishas are spirits: but spirits are personalities. If orishas are personalities, then they are gods.

aadoiza:


I very much love knowledge seekers like yourself. However, if your interest in this subject is what I think it is then you need to stay away from VAXX's posts thereon and look for guys with empirical knowledge on this stuff I can't fathom how I made is through his litany of hogwash. I believe the real initiates (I'm not one) here would've seen that the guy is not a practitioner but a theorist Ifa priest.

Although he's claiming to be an atheist, FOLYKAZE has made much more sense and more invaluable contributions to this thread than our wannabe initiate. I'm impressed.

Thanks bro!
I think it is one thing to make an assertion but it is another to justify them.

Vaxx will want us to believe the monotheistic nature of the Yoruba ATR but every available fact contradict it.
My paternal grand mum was an Osun devotee, its difficult for me to believe that Yoruba's don't pray to their gods.

He would also want us to believe that Orishas are energies, unfortunately he can't justify it. For energies who can hear prayers are not energies but personalities.

shadeyinka:


Sorry if it sounded like I am insulting the Eminent Professor, buy I am certainly not.

I am just querying some of her points: raising objections. Objections are valid ways of learning when a counter to the objections are provided.

I remember in primary school when we just learned when to use 'a' or 'an' as a prefix to a noun. Our teacher came one day to say 'a European' and we all protested that it should be 'an European'. He had to give us evidences and convincing arguments before we were convinced.

That is what I am doing. The Prof said some things against my preconceived notion hence , I need a superior counter argument to satisfy me. I don't think this has been done except a repetition of your position and an appeal to the fact that Professors cannot be wrong.

I am sure that the problem is our different definition of the term gods.

We know who Olodumare is: the Almighty, The Creator, God

What/Who do you call gods?

The bone of contention is that (your claim)
1. Orisas are not gods
2. Orisas used to be humans (hence equivalent to saints)

you made me go in cycle, after giving explanation on my own, i realized you think i am talking base on my center notion to ''purify'' Yoruba ATR as you claim.... therefore i need to bring in an authority to buttress my point. so that at least you will have an idea of where i am coming from....

Despite, repeating myself, i still back it up with new fact, please kindly read the post again with open mind and raised objections in it as you claim you did to your primary school teacher...

for you to say the professor theory is wrong, you will have to bring a counter evidence that will defeat her stands... she of course raised the challenged, that is what academia do.... they do give fact with evidence.... and the challenge is still open... PRESENT ANY FACT THAT YORUBA ATR REFER TO OSUN, OGUN, SHANGO AS OLODUMARE.... unless the challenge is defeated, but as for now the prof theory remain the most valid conclusion...

gods in a western sense are simply MULTIPLE of being consider to have power over human nature or fortune..... that is the western sense, now to the yoruba concept, we do not have multiple of being with that regard, only being capable of having power over human nature and fortune is Olodumare.... the difference you should derived now is to note that olodumare is not in multiple... orisha are in multiple, therefore it invalidate the logic and the truth in calling orisha god according to yoruba morphology .

Beside, orisha has gender......we know orunmila to be man, we known osun to be female.... but olodumare has no gender, he is believe to be the only supreme creator of earth and in heaven, acknowledged by all the orisha as the Head to whom all authority belongs and all allegiance is due. . . His status of supremacy is absolute. Things happen when He approves, things do not come to pass if He disapproves. In worship, the Yoruba holds Him ultimately First and Last; in man's daily life, He has the ultimate pre-eminence. all this article of faith invalidate the chance of orisha to be called god..... i will call your attention to one odu ifa that i sent to cutemadridista

shadeyinka:

Thanks bro!
I think it is one thing to make an assertion but it is another to justify them.

Vaxx will want us to believe the monotheistic nature of the Yoruba ATR but every available fact contradict it.
My paternal grand mum was an Osun devotee, its difficult for me to believe that Yoruba's don't pray to their gods.

He would also want us to believe that Orishas are energies, unfortunately he can't justify it. For energies who can hear prayers are not energies but personalities.

if your paternal grandmum is still alive, seek her attention in what i post to you...do not believe in what i say, carry out your investigation.... we are not living in superstition world... and please be practical in your approach ... i am given you attention because i saw a sense of calmness in you, this might be my last reply as some already declare to be more knowledgeable than i do which i accept.. i do not claim the perfect answer, though i will still give you the honor to reply you, if there is need.

vaxx:
olodumare has a being is without gender, but he is depicted as a single source, will it not make sense if the we or he is use.....

practically no one has seen olodumare including the orisha.... apart from orunmila who saw his buttocks lol, when he is in human form Oriunmila see a part of his buttocks after a
gigantic sacrifice at the sea.

In odu ifa Osa Otura
Ifa reavel how Olodumare reavel is buttock to orumila
Ifa said in Osa Otura
A ki ri idi okun
A ki ri Idi Osa
A ki ri idi Olodumare
Sugbon Eni to ba ko sinu omi
Ni o mon ibi ti omi mu ni de
Awon to ba ke ibosi ni won feju Yan Yan soke
Difa fun Orunmila
Nijo ti yio lo re ridi Olodumare
Ebo ni won ko Kara ale ko mase
Woni eti okun ni ko gbe ebo lo
Orunmila gbe ebo odi eti okun
Bi o se niki ki o gbe ebo sile lo wo Olodumare to bora le ni ihihoho
Olodumare ni iwo Orunmila?
Orunmila si dahun pe repo
Olodumare nje o ridi mi bayii ?
Orunmila ni ibi sikiti ibadi nikan na ni mori
Olodumare ni oda to ba je be ko si ohun ti o ko ni ridi mon laye
Orunmila ba n jo
I ba n you
Oni ohun pelu eledumare egbarigba.
TRANSLATION
No one unravel the mystery of the ocean
No one unravel the mystery of the sea
No one unravel they mystery of Olodumare

It one who immersed himself in the river
That knows the depth of the river
It is one who cry out for assistance
That will open his eye very wide to the sky
Ifa divination reading was performed for Orunmila
When ifa want see the buttocks of Olodumare
He ask will I discovered Olodumare secrets ,everything he asked ?
Orunmila was instructed to offer sacrifice
But he should take the sacrifice to the sea
As he was about to place it at the beach
He saw Olodumare put off his garment
He saw the buttocks

Because Olodumare was stark Unclad and was in human image
Olodumare ask Orunmila did you see me?
Orunmila answer yes
I only see plump part of your buttock
Olodumare then said since you see my buttocks
There is nothing on earth that you will not be able to unravel again
Orumila was dancing and very happy
so from this verse we can now deduce tha Olodumare is an invisible entity. You can communicate with him by using orisha of your choice as intermediary. OLODUMARE SELECT WHOMEVER HE WANT

shadeyinka

vaxx:
you made me going in cycle, after giving explanation on my own, i realized you think i am talking base on my center notion to ''purify'' Yoruba ATR.... therefore i need to bring in an authority to buttress my point. so that at least you will have an idea of where i am coming from....

Despite, repeating myself, i still back it up with new fact, please kindly read the post again with open mind and raised objections in it as you claim you did to your primary school teacher...

for you to say the professor theory is wrong, you have bring a counter evidence that will defeat her stands... she of course raised her chanledge, that is what academia do.... they do give fact with evidence.... and the challenge is still open... PRESENT ANY FACT THAT YORUBA ATR REFER TO OSUN, OGUN, SHANGO AS OLODUMARE.... unless the challenge is defeated, but as for now the prof theory remain the most valid conclusion...

gods in a western sense are simply MULTIPLE of being consider to have power over human nature or fortune..... that is the western sense, now to the yoruba concept, we do not have multiple of being with that regard, only being capable of having power over human nature and fortune is Olodumare.... the difference you should be derived now... olodumare is not in multiple... orisha are in multiple, therefore it invalidate the logic and the truth in calling orisha god according to yoruba morphology .

Beside, orisha has gender......we know orunmila to be man, we known osun to be female.... but olodumare has no gender, he is believe to be the only supreme creator of earth and in heaven, acknowledged by all the orisha as the Head to whom all authority belongs and all allegiance is due. . . His status of supremacy is absolute. Things happen when He approves, things do not come to pass if He disapproves. In worship, the Yoruba holds Him ultimately First and Last; in man's daily life, He has the ultimate pre-eminence. all this article of faith invalidate the chance of orisha to be called god..... i will call your attention to one odu ifa that i sent to cutemadridista

There isn't a contest to who Olodumare is. The Creator, the Almighty, the All knowing, All Powerful Deity.

The Yoruba's will say Orisha bi Olorun 'o si.

In other words there is no comparison between Olodumare and any Orisa.

PRESENT ANY FACT THAT YORUBA ATR REFER TO OSUN, OGUN, SHANGO AS OLODUMARE...

I think I have answered this question.
Yoruba ATR does not refer to any Orisa as Olodumare, so there is no fact against that.

I have stated why the prof is wrong, haven't I?
She said "Orisas are not gods but equivalent to saints in Christianity". And I have shown that Orisas are personalities hence gods.

She said Yoruba orishas are human:
I have shown that some are not human like Yemoja, Ol'okun etc

Now to the definition of gods: you say

gods in a western sense are simply MULTIPLE of being consider to have power over human nature or fortune..... that is the western sense, now to the yoruba concept, we do not have multiple of being with that regard, only being capable of having power over human nature and fortune is Olodumare....

In the light of your definition, doesn't
Aje have power over peoples wealth?
We pray: " Aje a gbe yin o!"

Osun have the power to give children

Ogun has the power to kill those who lie while swearing to him

These three falls into power over human nature or fortune.

Hence Orisas are by your definition gods.

Or,
Maybe I am not clear by what you mean by "multitude of beings"

shadeyinka:


OK.
We can't quarrel over small matters like this.

I know that the modern Yoruba ATR practitioners wish to establish a strict monotheistic concept on ATR to promote acceptability. The only way out is to say the Irumales and Orisas are energies.

If they are just energies, how can they be self aware.
I agree that Orishas are spirits: but spirits are personalities. If orishas are personalities, then they are gods.

And as I said, you're right. Perhaps the Orisa, as gods/goddesses, have their own energy, just as you have your own energy and I have my own. And perhaps praying/offering things to an Orisa is different than, say, praying or offering things to Zeus because their spirits are composed of different things. The energy you feel with Orisa may be different than one you feel with Jesus or Allah or whatever. Again, this is hard for me to explain.

FeelDeMusic:

And as I said, you're right. Perhaps the Orisa, as gods/goddesses, have their own energy, just as you have your own energy and I have my own. And perhaps praying/offering things to an Orisa is different than, say, praying or offering things to Zeus because their spirits are composed of different things. The energy you feel with Orisa may be different than one you feel with Jesus or Allah or whatever. Again, this is hard for me to explain.

I understand you.

Every god is supposed to have some benevolent or malevolent powers (if you like energies) else, they won't be gods.

Every kind of god is worshiped (to bring favours and to please them) and prayed to (as a means of making a request). It is impossible to separate a god from its powers: cause that is what make them gods.

The rituals may be different, but the purpose is the same

shadeyinka:

There isn't a contest to who Olodumare is. The Creator, the Almighty, the All knowing, All Powerful Deity.

The Yoruba's will say Orisha bi Olorun 'o si.

In other words there is no comparison between Olodumare and any Orisa.

PRESENT ANY FACT THAT YORUBA ATR REFER TO OSUN, OGUN, SHANGO AS OLODUMARE...

I think I have answered this question.
Yoruba ATR does not refer to any Orisa as Olodumare, so there is no fact against that.

I have stated why the prof is wrong, haven't I?
She said "Orisas are not gods but equivalent to saints in Christianity". And I have shown that Orisas are personalities hence gods.

She said Yoruba orishas are human:
I have shown that some are not human like Yemoja, Ol'okun etc

Now to the definition of gods: you say


In the light of your definition, doesn't
Aje have power over peoples wealth?
We pray: " Aje a gbe yin o!"

Osun have the power to give children

Ogun has the power to kill those who lie while swearing to him

These three falls into power over human nature or fortune.

Hence Orisas are by your definition gods.

Or,
Maybe I am not clear by what you mean by "multitude of beings"

shadeyinka, i am sorry this will be my last post to you....
orisha bi olrun ko si , good words.. even in metaphorical statement, the literal meaning stills hold that there is no DEITY LIKE GOD which conclude olorun is unique and absolute..... as i made mention earlier, olorun are part of the secondary names of GOD.. the real name is olodumare.. try and read my post with an open heart and not for the purpose of debating... and again read the odu ifa i quote you on.

Your rebuttal to the prof challenge is weak, how? with over 400 orishas , there is more than enough evidence that majority of this orisha has earthly background.... if the myth surrounding iyemoja and olokun remain unverified for now, it those not mean it invalidate the claim of the prof, i postulate that obatala and iyemoja were the first creature ( i stand to be corrected)since they are consider the father and mother of all orishas according to yoruba ATR.... i will seek knowledge about this concept and get back to you (maybe in my my next topic).... objectively the prof point remain very valid because her approach is very logical and support available information... if orunmila who is regard has ibikeji olodumare(second in command to olodumare) has earthly parent.... then it tells that the background of the remain known orisha cannot be entirely mythical and therefore buttress the point of the prof.

when people say aje a gbe yin. they are not seeing aje as a being who will help the merchandiser in his/her business.... they are literally telling the merchandiser that his /her struggle will benefit her..

osun olomoyoyo(osun mother of plenty children) does not have the power to give children because she does not create one, she can only request from olodumare on behalf devotee for children.. when osun was on earth, she herself was barren, despite being surrounded by lots of children, she waited and waited yet no baby, she consult ifa, it was explained to her that she will be bless by plenty children, yet she did not born, after much awaited time and frustration from her fellow iyawo who later become the river in iwo today and her husband, it is beloved she turn to water.... symbolically it become orisha and today lots of children venerate her... it is this love she has for children when she was alive that people still invoke on her energies to bring forth children.... you can only have babies thru sex when olodumare permit it... osun songs goes like this'' mo ti wede, moti wede, ori je ro omo mi we(i have bath an iron, i have birth an iron, my destiny let me see my child to birth) it is your akunleyan that matter.


ogun those not practically kills ..No mystical gun will appear to shut you down.... law of karma is so heavily presented in YORUBA ATR... a robber caught in the process of robbing and was shut down by gun is believed to be killed by ogun, symbolically they are right because guns are made of iron which represent ogun, if a car accident occur, it is believed those who died in the car are killed by ogun , they are also right symbolically because they die through what symbolically represent ogun... i can see you find it difficult to separate reality from superstition. i understand... hence orisha by definition are not god because they do not qualify to be in position of olodumare....they are simply a channel between human and GOD...


Gods are plural terms, orisha are also in plural terms, olodumare iis a term coined for one single source..

vaxx:
shadeyinka

You called my name like one who just concluded an incantation.

I hope it is well. My light is His reflection. Untouchable, unlockable, un-lookable and unquenchable! Its a light that slices the mountains and divides the seas...

vaxx:
shadeyinka, i am sorry this will be my last post to you....
orisha bi olrun ko si , good words.. even in metaphorical statement, the literal meaning stills hold that there is no DEITY LIKE GOD which conclude olorun is unique and absolute..... as i made mention earlier, olorun are part of the secondary names of GOD.. the real name is olodumare.. try and read my post with an open heart and not for the purpose of debating... and again read my the odu ifa i quote you on.

Your rebuttal to the prof challenge is weak, how? with over 400 orishas , there is more than enough evidence that majority of this orisha has earthly background.... if the myth surrounding iyemoja and olokun remain unverified for now, it those not mean it invalidate the claim of the prof, i postulate that obatala and iyemoja were the first creature ( i stand to be corrected)since they are consider the father and mother of all orishas according to yoruba ATR.... i will seek knowledge about this concept and get back to you (maybe in my my next topic).... objectively the prof point remain very valid because her approach is very logical and support available information... if orunmila who is regard has ibikeji olodumare(second in command to olodumare) has earthly parent.... then it tells that the background of the remain unknown orisha cannot be entirely mythical and therefore buttress the point of the prof.

when people say aje a gbe yin. they are not seeing aje as a being who will help the merchandiser in his/her business.... they are literally telling the merchandiser that his /her struggle will benefit her..

osun olomoyoyo does not have the power to give children because she does not create one, she can only request from olodumare on behalf devotee for children.. when osun was on earth, she herself was barren, despite being surrounded by lots of children, she waited and waited yet no baby, she consult ifa, it was explained to her that she will be bless by plenty children, yet she did not born, after much awaited time and frustration from her fellow iyawo who later become the river in iwo today and her husband, it is beloved she turn to water.... symbolically it become orisha and today lots of children venerate her... it is this love she has for children when she was alive that people still invoke on her energies to bring forth children.... you can only have babies thru sex when olodumare permit it... osun songs goes like this'' mo ti wede, moti wede, ori je ro omo mi we(i have bath an iron, i have birth an iron, my destiny let me see my child to birth) it is your akunleyan that matter.


ogun those not take practically kills ..No mystical gun will appear to shut you down.... law of karma is so heavily presented in YORUBA ATR... a robber caught in the process of robbing and was shut down by gun is believed to be killed by ogun, symbolically they are right because guns are made of iron which represent ogun, if a car accident occur, it is believed those who died in the car are killed by ogun , they are also right symbolically because they die through what symbolically represent ogun... i can see you find it difficult to separate reality from superstition. i understand... hence orisha by definition are not god because they do not qualify to be in position of olodumare....they are simply a channel between human and GODs...


Gods are plural terms, orisha are also in plural terms, olodumare iis a term coined for one single source..

OK, I hear you

shadeyinka:

You called my name like one who just concluded an incantation.

I hope it is well. My light is His reflection. Untouchable, unlockable, un-lookable and unquenchable! Its a light that slices the mountains and divides the seas...

lol, i only called your attention to the quote, and anyway am not a traditionalist with superstition, you made me break my promise when i said this will be my last reply .... do you even know you have also recited incarnation too but only in English

vaxx:
lol, i only called your attention to the quote, and anyway am not a traditionalist with superstition, you made me break my promise when i said this will be my last reply .... do you even know you have also recited incarnation too but only in English

Was that an incantation? LOL

It was just a statement of fact!

But it is well. There is no problem!

CuteMadridista:
Vaxx, This is a discussion between you and I and I never called anyone to this thread except those ready to educate us as I said in OP, asides that I never called anyone here

I notice some people see whatever they want to see based on their preconceived conclusions which made them interpret this post https://www.nairaland.com/post/65750087 as me inviting someone to THIS thread which isn't true as the link I gave in that post was actually that which you gave in your second post on this thread

This troublemaker, attention seeker and scammer has always been against your educating me on ATR for (perhaps) personal reasons cuz I see no sense in his attempt at stirring up drama here over a post that has nothing to do with this thread

I'll advice you to ignore this guy as far as this thread is concerned if you can help it unless he asks questions if he has any and doesn't bring arguments, I hope you hearken to this advice as it'll help this thread stay sane and serve its purpose

Ignore him. That's his medicine.

FOLYKAZE:
There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality.
And freedom is vital in ATS, veneration of Orisha is done at will

1/ Please what, comprehensively according to what you've come to know and understand it to be, is hell?
2/ There ought to a plausible reason why there is no hell in Yoruba spirituality
so why then, is there no hell in Yoruba spirituality?
3/ Kindly, give a comprehensive and high level illumination that shows what and all that Orisha is?

shadeyinka:

You called my name like one who just concluded an incantation.

I hope it is well. My light is His reflection. Untouchable, unlockable, un-lookable and unquenchable! Its a light that slices the mountains and divides the seas...

Hmmmm, what does this mean?

FOLYKAZE:


Firstly, a deistism is a philosophical position that holds that God (in this case here Eledumare) does not interfare with the world. Thia posit that God is the source of everything and in a perfect condition but there is absenss of divine intervention. This is a fact because no one has ever engage Olódùmarè directly. There is no dedicated shrine or prophet that speaks with him.

Ori is the spark of consciousness and it is integral part of all the entities that exist in the physical world. Ori is not peculiar to only human and that mean that we are not the only conscious entity out there. Maybe what you mean by consciousness is sentience. But the Yoruba people hold that emi (life) and ori (consciousness) is present in every entity that exist. Emi in this case is not biological life but energy. Have you ever wondered there are aboku soro in Yoruba community? Do dead talks? This implies that what we assume dead is only biologically dead but still very much alive as a form of energy.

All the animals you can think about has their owm special Ashe. And this includes the trees and inanimate objects. Therefore, one cannot say that Eledumare is anthropocentric.

Ajoguns who are malevolent agents of Esu can cause one or whole community calamity. This is why Yoruba people appease Esu not to unleash his agent on them with this saying, Èṣù máse mi, ọmọ èlò mi ni ki o se

So, can Esu be termed as Satan then?

vaxx:
According to Yoruba cultural myth, we also believe they are some unseen natural element that dwells in the tree , rocks and some other mystical dwelling places, they are called EBORA, IWIN, egbere.... there is a myth that if you can collect egbere mat, you will suddenly become rich, this egbere cries without pause. that is just is nature

Sir, do Egbere and Ebora have English replicas? Asin, is there a term you can use to desceibe them so we the none Yoruba speaking can get along?