MuttleyLaff:
1/ Please what, comprehensively according to what you've come to know and understand it to be, is hell?
2/ There ought to a plausible reason why there is no hell in Yoruba spirituality
so why then, is there no hell in Yoruba spirituality?
3/ Kindly, give a comprehensive and high level illumination that shows what and all that Orisha is?

1. My knowledge of hell is from Christian belief. It is a place filled and surrounded with fire where sinners, demoms and satan are going to be punished after judgement by God.

2. There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality because of the absence of Christian concept of sin, eternal damnation or some kind of jidgdment after the end of the world.

3. Orisha is a spirit that represent the manifestation of the Supreme Authority. In general sense, Orisha is a deity among the Yoruba people

FOLYKAZE:


All you've written above is hogwash. No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more. So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you. No need to be hash.

Folykaze, I replied to your email, did you receive it?

Emmanystone:

So, can Esu be termed as Satan then?

No.

Esu is not entirely bad. He protects, defend, bless and sometime uphold justice for Mankind. Yoruba people name their children after Esu. We have names like Esudara, Esubiyi, Esusola. There are also some people who join Esu cult. If Esu is entirely bad, no one would have embrace it. This is unlike Satan that is complicated evil.

Emmanystone:

Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you. No need to be hash.

Noted.

FOLYKAZE:


No.

Esu is not entirely bad. He protects, defend, bless and sometime uphold justice for Mankind. Yoruba people name their children after Esu. We have names like Esudara, Esubiyi, Esusola. There are also some people who join Esu cult. If Esu is entirely bad, no one would have embrace it. This is unlike Satan that is complicated evil.

Sir, the satanists will disagree with you on this. To them satan is not bad at all. He blesses them with wealth, protection, Some get children from him (as they claim)

The call him the Humanist. They believe he is closer to them and answers them quickly when they call.

And they are names after him too. Devilin. Satin (female name for satan) Devellina, Devellon, Devellin, Devin, Devlyn,

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, I replied to your email, did you receive it?

Got it.

FeelDeMusic:
Folykaze, I replied to your email, did you receive it?

Am trying to get into your Moniker 'FeelDeMusic'. In a good way, as in to enjoy it or you or to endure it as a result of something bad i did?

Emmanystone:

Sir, the satanists will disagree with you on this. To them satan is not bad at all. He blesses them with wealth, protection, Some get children from him (as they claim)

The call him the Humanist. They believe he is closer to them and answers them quickly when they call.

And they are names after him too. Devilin. Satin (female name for satan) Devellina, Devellon, Devellin, Devin, Devlyn,

Wow. This sounds more interesting. I am hearing of those names for the first time.

More added points.

Esu is not anti God. He does not drag supremacy with Eledumare.

Esu was not sent down from heaven. The best access of reaching other Orisha and Eledumare is through Esu.

vaxx:
olodumare has a being is without gender, but he is depicted as a single source, will it not make sense if the we or he is use.....

practically no one has seen olodumare including the orisha.... apart from orunmila who saw his buttocks lol, when he is in human form Oriunmila see a part of his buttocks after a
gigantic sacrifice at the sea.

In odu ifa Osa Otura
Ifa reavel how Olodumare reavel is buttock to orumila
Ifa said in Osa Otura
A ki ri idi okun
A ki ri Idi Osa
A ki ri idi Olodumare
Sugbon Eni to ba ko sinu omi
Ni o mon ibi ti omi mu ni de
Awon to ba ke ibosi ni won feju Yan Yan soke
Difa fun Orunmila
Nijo ti yio lo re ridi Olodumare
Ebo ni won ko Kara ale ko mase
Woni eti okun ni ko gbe ebo lo
Orunmila gbe ebo odi eti okun
Bi o se niki ki o gbe ebo sile lo wo Olodumare to bora le ni ihihoho
Olodumare ni iwo Orunmila?
Orunmila si dahun pe repo
Olodumare nje o ridi mi bayii ?
Orunmila ni ibi sikiti ibadi nikan na ni mori
Olodumare ni oda to ba je be ko si ohun ti o ko ni ridi mon laye
Orunmila ba n jo
I ba n you
Oni ohun pelu eledumare egbarigba.
TRANSLATION
No one unravel the mystery of the ocean
No one unravel the mystery of the sea
No one unravel they mystery of Olodumare

It one who immersed himself in the river
That knows the depth of the river
It is one who cry out for assistance
That will open his eye very wide to the sky
Ifa divination reading was performed for Orunmila
When ifa want see the buttocks of Olodumare
He ask will I discovered Olodumare secrets ,everything he asked ?
Orunmila was instructed to offer sacrifice
But he should take the sacrifice to the sea
As he was about to place it at the beach
He saw Olodumare put off his garment
He saw the buttocks

Because Olodumare was stark Unclad and was in human image
Olodumare ask Orunmila did you see me?
Orunmila answer yes
I only see plump part of your buttock
Olodumare then said since you see my buttocks
There is nothing on earth that you will not be able to unravel again
Orumila was dancing and very happy
so from this verse we can now deduce tha Olodumare is an invisible entity. You can communicate with him by using orisha of your choice as intermediary. OLODUMARE SELECT WHOMEVER HE WANTshadeyinka

shadeyinka:
You called my name like one who just concluded an incantation.

I hope it is well.
My light is His reflection. Untouchable, unlockable, un-lookable and unquenchable!
Its a light that slices the mountains and divides the seas...

Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."
- Matthew 21:44

Anyone who stumbles over you that stone will be broken to pieces,
and it will crush anyone it falls on."
- Matthew 21:44 NLT[/quote]

And in their hands they shall bear you up,
lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
- Luke 4:11

There was no need for that, except that you're giving him too much credit
Be unmindful of Matthew 21:44 at your own peril

FOLYKAZE:
All you've written above is hogwash.
No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more.
So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

Emmanystone:
Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you.
No need to be hash.

I know FOLYKAZE,
and he is completely right, it is hogwash, plus mostly unashamed copy and paste, lifted word for word, from online content

What I found amusing,
was that, I immediately knew the post, which at the end of, as a frightener, he appended shadeyinka moniker to, was a "copy and paste"
because I recognised the post's content being from a website, I had a long time ago, previously bookmarked due to it being informative.
You know me, living in the Bible, doesnt prevent me travelling and/or go places

FOLYKAZE:
1. My knowledge of hell is from Christian belief.

I thought as much, that likely that's how and where you gathered your understanding and knowledge of and about hell from

FOLYKAZE:
It is a place filled and surrounded with fire where sinners, demoms and satan are going to be punished after judgement by God

Hell or better put, Hades, actually is a Greek concept, the Jews have no concept of Hell or Hades
they have Sheol, alright but as earklier said, the concept of Hell or Hades is a Greek one.

I like your cautious rendition of Hell,
which in the real or proper sense, actually is the Lake of Fire, otherwise, called the second death

FOLYKAZE:
2. There is no hell in Yoruba spirituality because of the absence of Christian concept of sin, eternal damnation or some kind of jidgdment after the end of the world.

Interesting.
In Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence of a concept of sin

Doubly interesting.
In Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence eternal damnation or some kind of jidgdment after the end of the world.

By the way, thanks for your earlier question responses
but wow, what, as you've come to know, learn and understand, is sin?
If you explain what it is, maybe, it will make understanding its absence in Yoruba spirituality
and why Yoruba spirituality happens to be hell agnostic

FOLYKAZE:
3. Orisha is a spirit that represent the manifestation of the Supreme Authority.
In general sense, Orisha is a deity among the Yoruba people

Hmm, so Orisha is a spirit that represents the manifestation of the Supreme Authority

Please share more light on Orisha and the Supreme Authority
1/ Kindly explain in details, how does Orisha, as a spirit, represent the manifestation of the Supreme Authority?
What manifesting/manifested Supreme Authority, is Orisha representing?
2/ What is the Supreme Authority?
Does the Supreme Authority have a name the Supreme Authority is known by?
3/ What is Orisha known as, called or name?
4/ Is there just one or there are more than one Orisha?
5a/ Why does Orisha have to or need to be a deity among the Yoruba or any other people for that matter?
5b/ Is this exclusive to the Yoruba only, as in, a privilege not extended to non Yorubas

Emmanystone:
So, can Esu be termed as Satan then?

FOLYKAZE:
No.

Esu is not entirely bad.
He protects, defend, bless and sometime uphold justice for Mankind.
Yoruba people name their children after Esu.
We have names like Esudara, Esubiyi, Esusola.
There are also some people who join Esu cult.

Emmmanystone fyi
Esudara means, Esu is good,
Esubiyi means, Esu, birth-gave this,
Esusola means, Esu architected this wealth

Apparently, it was Bishop Ajayi Crowther whilst translating the Bible to Yoruba language
who fitted Esu up to be Satan based on Esu having a similar modus operadi like Satan

FOLYKAZE, if not entirely bad, why at all, is Esu bad?
Why and what do some people join Esu cult for?
Is Esu, a law unto itself or Esu is answerable to a higher power?

FOLYKAZE:
If Esu is entirely bad, no one would have embrace it.
This is unlike Satan that is complicated evil.

Did you mean to type completely, instead of complicated?

MuttleyLaff:
I thought as much, that likely that's how and where you gathered your understanding and knowledge of and about hell from

Hell or better put, Hades, actually is a Greek concept, the Jews have no concept of Hell or Hades
they have Sheol, alright but as earklier said, the concept of Hell or Hades is a Greek one.

I like your cautious rendition of Hell,
which in the real or proper sense, actually is the Lake of Fire, otherwise, called the second death

Interesting.
In Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence of a concept of sin

Doubly interesting.
In Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence eternal damnation or some kind of jidgdment after the end of the world.

By the way, thanks for your earlier question responses
but wow, what, as you've come to know, learn and understand, is sin?
If you explain what it is, maybe, it will make understanding its absence in Yoruba spirituality
and why Yoruba spirituality happens to be hell agnostic

Sin is any form of action, though or feeling that is against or contrary to God's law.

Yoruba spirituality focus more on attaining Iwa-pele. Eledumare does not give Mankind any standard or divine law that guide how we life. Actually, there are some law guiding the livelihood in a community. These laws are set basd on the moral view of Men not God. The Orishas too have some certain principles except Eledumare. He/It has set everything in motion.

MuttleyLaff:
Hmm, so Orisha is a spirit that represents the manifestation of the Supreme Authority

Please share more light on Orisha and the Supreme Authority
1/ Kindly explain in details, how does Orisha, as a spirit represent the manifestation of the Supreme Authority?
2/ What is the Supreme Authority, does the Supreme Authority have a name the Supreme Authority is known by?
3/ What is Orisha known as, called or name?
4/ Is there just one or there are more than one Orisha?
5a/ Why does Orisha have to or need to be a deity among the Yoruba or any other people for that matter?
5b/ Is this exclusive to the Yoruba only, as in, a privilege not extended to non Yorubas

1. The Supreme Authority is the infinite source of all Ashe (power). And Orisha are the facet. More like a pool of energy with electric aspect, kinetic aspect and more aspects of the pool.

2. It is known by the name Eledumare or Olódùmarè

3. Orisha is simply an Orisha.

4. There are many Orishas like Ogun, Sango, Oya, etc

5. This is a very important question. I believe anything that is called God or Deity must be worshipped. Worship literally mean acknowledging the worth of someone or something. Therefore, an Orisha, in whichever form, plays an important role in the existence of Yoruba people and the world at large. For this reason alone, they are Deified.

5b. It extends to Non-Yoruba. Though these Orisha might take on another name in another culture, but they have ssmblance in nature and character.

MuttleyLaff:


if not entirely bad, why at all, is Esu bad?
Why and what do some people join Esu cult for?
Is Esu, a law unto itself or Esu is answerable to a higher power?

I believe Esu is bad becaue that is his nature.

Becoming an initiate of Esu cult will enable one to have full understanding of Esu and it nature.

Esu is answerable to Eledumare.

MuttleyLaff:
Did you mean to type completely, instead of complicated?

That was a typo. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

FOLYKAZE:
Sin is any form of action, though or feeling that is against or contrary to God's law.

and Yoruba spirituality has no concept of this description of what sin is, you earlier said. Right?

FOLYKAZE:
Yoruba spirituality focus more on attaining Iwa-pele

Iwa-pele for the benefit of non-Yoruba speakers, means "gentle disposition"

FOLYKAZE:
Eledumare does not give Mankind any standard or divine law that guide how we life.

There must be a justification for this
Why doesnt Eledumare give Mankind any standard or divine law that guide how we life?

FOLYKAZE:
Actually, there are some law guiding the livelihood in a community.
These laws are set basd on the moral view of Men not God.
The Orishas too have some certain principles except Eledumare. He/It has set everything in motion.

Hmm, some laws guiding the livelihood in a community, like what?
What does "These laws are set basd on the moral view of Men not God" mean?

FOLYKAZE:
1. The Supreme Authority is the infinite source of all Ashe (power).

Hmm, interesting and I can relate to this description
I like the description, though, I think, "Ashe" correctly mean Authority or Influence
and Power would have been translated from "Agbara or Ookun"

FOLYKAZE:
And Orisha are the facet. More like a pool of energy with electric aspect, kinetic aspect and more aspects of the pool

Ooookay

FOLYKAZE:
2. It is known by the name Eledumare or Olódùmarè

Kindly break down Eledumare,
What does the word, Eledumare really mean and/or what properly is the name all about?
Why is Olódùmarè called Olódùmarè?

FOLYKAZE:
3. Orisha is simply an Orisha

Thank you, so nothing to compare it with then

FOLYKAZE:
4. There are many Orishas like Ogun, Sango, Oya, etc

Interesting

FOLYKAZE:
5. This is a very important question.
I believe anything that is called God or Deity must be worshipped.
Worship literally mean acknowledging the worth of someone or something.
Therefore, an Orisha, in whichever form, plays an important role in the existence of Yoruba people and the world at large.
For this reason alone, they are Deified.

Hmm interesting bunch of a whole load of stuff

Similar way, the typical wacky-and-die glutton, acknowledging the worth of the stomach or belly, has the stomach deified?
Same way, drunks or alcoholics, acknowledging the worth of beer, spirits, rum, alcohol etcetera, have any of those drinks deified?
Same way, chrematistics acknowledging the worth of money, worship and deify it?
Same way, people acknowledging the worth of inanimate or not alive object, lying around a shrine somewhere, have it deified?
It's true, people make gods of things

FOLYKAZE:
5b. It extends to Non-Yoruba. Though these Orisha might take on another name in another culture,
but they have ssmblance in nature and character.

Hmm. I follow your drift. OK

FOLYKAZE:
I believe Esu is bad becaue that is his nature.

1/ Why is Esu bad?
2/ How did Esu come about?
3/ Does Olódùmarè approve of Esu being deified?
4/ Is Olódùmarè pleased and/or happy Eus is deified?

FOLYKAZE:
Becoming an initiate of Esu cult will enable one to have full understanding of Esu and it nature.
Esu is answerable to Eledumare.

Forgive me, I dont understand this
but why, to what end is this collabo with Esu?
How is any good going to come out of fraternizing with big bad Esu?
Is there not a better way to have full understanding of Esu and it's nature without association with Esu?

FOLYKAZE:


This question is not directed to me, but please permit me to address it.

Olodumare does not mostly interfare in the affair of humankind. What do we need him for when we have our Ori (personal deity) and Orisha as extention. Eledumare can be classified as Deistic God. There is nothing like Ojúbo Eleduare, except some Orisha shrine. Therefore, Eledumare can be exonerated from evil act.

Freewill is the basic foundation of ATS. It is peculiar before physical existence. Before birth, we freely choose our destiny (Orin/ipin) in the abode of Ajala. Whatever we tend to do in physical life is a mirror of our existence in spiritual realm (iponri).

Those who chose Ori rere will be prosperous while those who chose Ori buburu will become impoverish. But from what I learnt, Ori búburú has to do with bad behaviour. This is why Yoruba say, ti mo ba de ajule Orun, nibi a n gbe yan ori, rere ni ma yan (if I return to the spiritual world, in the place where Destiny can be chosen, I will pick the good one). This implies that the harmony of good and evil are what makes existence continual.

If not for sacrifices and blood offerings in pagan religions, I think this accords with my concept of God. Not the blood thirsty god of the Jews called Yahweh.

vaxx:
hello, i understand where you are conming from, but i will do my best to explain some details to you..... the universe is bounded on a balance system..... what you call evil is good to another man, the war that besiege a community that cause calamity has cause prosperous to another community, the famine that besiege a village that cause starvation is a blessing in disguise for another community, in evil, there exist good, and in in good there exist evil..... so every element of universe is base on balance system .... sacrifice given to the orisha which include Esu, eleye, shango and others are symbolical... No orisha eat ebo..... The real sacrifice is always about sacrificing your bad habits or "wants" in order to get the things you really need or to contribute your wealth to your community.

The animals that are sometimes associated with ebo are not the true sacrifice, but are symbolic. They serve a metaphoric purpose, ebo is not just the sacrifice of animals, food etc but of what the animals and this sacrifice object represent. For example, sacrificing a ram to Sango is symbolic of the qualities of the ram that we must embrace (such as perseverance).

therefore the real sacrifice to orisa is only taking place when you sacrifice practical things such as bad habits holding you back or feeding your community. Because it is easier to sacrifice foodstuffs, lazy people push the myth that it is the real sacrifice and not that actual spiritual work that you should be focusing your sacrifice on. so sacrifice given to esu or any orisha is not necessarily for him but for the person or community that offer it

Beside Ajogun do not act on its own, it is human being bad character that besiege ajogun ... it is not olodumare that create evil, evil emanate from human when he violate the concept of nature.... meaning it is human that hurt themselves ....so the evil cause of ajogun is as a result of the effect of human action

Once again if not for the ebo (whether regarded as symbolic or not) I am comfortable with such a spiritual outlook on life. The black man is spiritually sick because an alien spirituality has been foisted on him but many continue along that diseased Road because they want to go to heaven. Very juvenile.

Is there heaven and hell in ATS (Yoruba)?

Fact is my concept of God is pagan but I detest anything fetish.

FOLYKAZE:


Firstly, a deistism is a philosophical position that holds that God (in this case here Eledumare) does not interfare with the world. Thia posit that God is the source of everything and in a perfect condition but there is absenss of divine intervention[b]This is a fact because no one has ever engage Olódùmarè directly. There is no dedicated shrine or prophet that speaks with him[/b].

Ori is the spark of consciousness and it is integral part of all the entities that exist in the physical world. Ori is not peculiar to only human and that mean that we are not the only conscious entity out there. Maybe what you mean by consciousness is sentience. But the Yoruba people hold that emi (life) and ori (consciousness) is present in every entity that exist. Emi in this case is not biological life but energy. Have you ever wondered there are aboku soro in Yoruba community? Do dead talks? This implies that what we assume dead is only biologically dead but still very much alive as a form of energy.

All the animals you can think about has their owm special Ashe. And this includes the trees and inanimate objects. Therefore, one cannot say that Eledumare is anthropocentric.

Ajoguns who are malevolent agents of Esu can cause one or whole community calamity. This is why Yoruba people appease Esu not to unleash his agent on them with this saying, Èṣù máse mi, ọmọ èlò mi ni ki o se

ATS is quite advanced and accords with common sense. The fraud of those who say God spoke to them in a book.
But then who speaks through IFA? I really don't have a clue about ATS but I think I'd be comfortable with it if not for the sacrifices as in ebo. Anything fetish, juju, or blood sacrifices I have strong aversion to such things.
My concept of God is nature. Let man just live in accordance with nature and he'd find true spirituality. The spirituality that comes through dictates in a book is what has corrupted man.

vaxx:
yoruba traditional religion is monotheistic , there are no several gods in yoruba tradition, what we have is simply orisha when you put it into Yoruba syllable, it is spell like this... ori- ti- a- sha(meaning, the head we specifically selected)traditionally our believe system is characterized by a deep sense of the interdependence of all life. “Every life form and element of Nature has an inner soul force – including rivers, rocks, clouds, metals, flowers, thunder, and the wind. These natural energies that comprise
are symbolically represented by the orisha. most of the orisha were once with us... for example. orunmila is from oke igbeti , he has a wife known as apetebi likewise sango the son of aganju and so many more of them that has earthly biological background like i and you.

Does this accords with the nonduality of Hindu and Buddhist mystics? As in the unity of all things held in perfect harmony and balance including what we call evil. Is that the concept in ATR?

FeelDeMusic:

Hmmmm, what does this mean?

In raw lay mans language:
It's a statement of who I really am.
A reflection of Gods Light and Presence!

MuttleyLaff:


Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."
- Matthew 21:44

Anyone who stumbles over you that stone will be broken to pieces,
and it will crush anyone it falls on."
- Matthew 21:44 NLT

And in their hands they shall bear you up,
lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
- Luke 4:11

There was no need for that, except that you're giving him too much credit
Be unmindful of Matthew 21:44 at your own peril


.
You know me, living in the Bible, doesnt prevent me travelling and/or go places

Thank you o, for stating some other parts of the Holy Incantation.

MuttleyLaff:


Emmmanystone fyi
Esudara means, Esu is good,
Esubiyi means, Esu, birth-gave this,
Esusola means, Esu architected this wealth

Apparently, it was Bishop Ajayi Crowther whilst translating the Bible to Yoruba language
who fitted Esu up to be Satan based on Esu having a similar modus operadi like Satan

FOLYKAZE, if not entirely bad, why at all, is Esu bad?
Why and what do some people join Esu cult for?
Is Esu, a law unto itself or Esu is answerable to a higher power?

Did you mean to type completely, instead of complicated?

Meaning, Esu is not evil, but to have a satan in the Bible, he was given the place of satan the devil?

But, the cult, what is it for?

MuttleyLaff:


Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."
- Matthew 21:44

Anyone who stumbles over you that stone will be broken to pieces,
and it will crush anyone it falls on."
- Matthew 21:44 NLT

And in their hands they shall bear you up,
lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
- Luke 4:11

There was no need for that, except that you're giving him too much credit
Be unmindful of Matthew 21:44 at your own peril

All you've written above is hogwash.
No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more.
So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you.
No need to be hash.I know FOLYKAZE,
and he is completely right, it is hogwash, plus mostly unashamed copy and paste, lifted word for word, from online content

What I found amusing,
was that, I immediately knew the post, which at the end of, as a frightener, he appended shadeyinka moniker to, was a "copy and paste"
because I recognised the post's content being from a website, I had a long time ago, previously bookmarked due to it being informative.
You know me, living in the Bible, doesnt prevent me travelling and/or go places

I totally subscribe to travelling to such places, without which you wouldn't know what is going on around you.

Other religions of the world knows so much about Christianity and her literature, but the Christians know very little about them, hence, they have a way of being deceitful and drawing unsuspecting Christians away.

I read everything printed in English.

FOLYKAZE:


Wow. This sounds more interesting. I am hearing of those names for the first time.

More added points.

Esu is not anti God. He does not drag supremacy with Eledumare.

Esu was not sent down from heaven. The best access of reaching other Orisha and Eledumare is through Esu.

Okay. So, we settle for 'No satan' in the Yoruba cosmology/Mythology' (?)

Hmmm. I just learn something here. No being is totally evil in the African Traditional religion. No Heaven, no Hell.

Only the realm of the Ancestors.

Meaning the wickedness in this world will not be recompensed. No wonder the hearts of men are set in them to keep doing evil. No Recompense of Tribulation.

But, what if there's indeed Hellfire? I mean, what if A Yoruba traditionalist dies discovers there's indeed Hellfire, Heaven and satan?

Emmanystone:
Meaning, Esu is not evil,
but to have a satan in the Bible, he was given the place of satan the devil?

But, the cult, what is it for?

Meaning Esu has a similar evil modus operadi like Satan's
and so was given the place of satan the devil
The necessity for a name, is the mother of that substitution
The Yoruba bible translation had to be completed with a Yoruba name for Satan,

Esu's idiosyncrasy, apparently, fitted the bill like a hand fits in a glove

MuttleyLaff:
and Yoruba spirituality has no concept of this description of what sin is, you earlier said. Right?

No

MuttleyLaff:
Iwa-pele for the benefit of non-Yoruba speakers, means "gentle disposition"

Yes.

MuttleyLaff:
There must be a justification for this
Why doesnt Eledumare give Mankind any standard or divine law that guide how we life?

There is freewill

MuttleyLaff:
Hmm, some laws guiding the livelihood in a community, like what?
What does "These laws are set basd on the moral view of Men not God" mean?

In some community, there is a law that prevent one from stealing. The same law is created by the leader of the community.

MuttleyLaff:
Hmm, interesting and I can relate to this description
I like the description, though, I think, "Ashe" correctly mean Authority or Influence
and Power would have been translated from "Agbara or Ookun"

Ooookay

Ashe relates with potency or power to make things happen.

MuttleyLaff:
Kindly break down Eledumare,
What does the word, Eledumare really mean and/or what properly is the name all about?
Why is Olódùmarè called Olódùmarè?

Eledumare when broken down gives us El + Odu + Mare. This mean owner + energy + with infinite end like rainbow.

Eledumare is the source of all Energy in the universe.

MuttleyLaff:
Thank you, so nothing to compare it with then

Interesting

Hmm interesting bunch of a whole load of stuff

Similar way, the typical wacky-and-die glutton, acknowledging the worth of the stomach or belly, has the stomach deified?
Same way, drunks or alcoholics, acknowledging the worth of beer, spirits, rum, alcohol etcetera, have any of those drinks deified?
Same way, chrematistics acknowledging the worth of money, worship and deify it?
Same way, people acknowledging the worth of inanimate or not alive object, lying around a shrine somewhere, have it deified?
It's true, people make gods of things

Hmm. I follow your drift. OK

The mouth is called Olubobotiribo. This is the deity that receive most of Ebo.
Money too is an Orisha called Aje.

However, Yoruba spirituality acknowledge the essence of this things in material form but what they worship is the real essence. Aje (God of wealth) is very important for our existence. Aje is not the coin or paper note but the value it carries. The paper is just like a representation or material face.

More like a nationalist honoring the flag of a country, the flag is not the country but the representation or symbol of the country. I guess this is why some JW ain't supporting nationalism because they perceive it is Idolatry.

The so called inanimate objects are all energy and vibrate on a frequency. However, they are symbolic representation of the essence of Orisha.

Man does not create God. The system is call Abalaye.

MuttleyLaff:
1/ Why is Esu bad?
2/ How did Esu come about?
3/ Does Olódùmarè approve of Esu being deified?
4/ Is Olódùmarè pleased and/or happy Eus is deified?

1. That is his nature.
2. From Eledumare.
3. He is the keeper of Ashe. So yes.
4. Eledumare is not just an emotional creature. I learnt that Esu, Ajogun and Eleye are in position to keep balance in the universe.

MuttleyLaff:
Forgive me, I dont understand this
but why, to what end is this collabo with Esu?
How is any good going to come out of fraternizing with big bad Esu?
Is there not a better way to have full understanding of Esu and it's nature without association with Esu?

To either become a Priest or Initiate.
Without Esu appealing on one behalf, there wont be good either. He is at the middle of tbe cross road. Esu bless women with kids, wealth and close relationship with other Orisha.
No, without joining Esu cult, you will only be entitled to know very little about thr Deity. More like Ifa cult or Ogboni. One cannot know much without joining the specific field. Would you know quantum physics by going to Banking and Finance class?

Mujtahida:

ATS is quite advanced and accords with common sense. The fraud of those who say God spoke to them in a book.
But then who speaks through IFA? I really don't have a clue about ATS but I think I'd be comfortable with it if not for the sacrifices as in ebo. Anything fetish, juju, or blood sacrifices I have strong aversion to such things.
My concept of God is nature. Let man just live in accordance with nature and he'd find true spirituality. The spirituality that comes through dictates in a book is what has corrupted man.

Ifa is a collection of history of the world, orisha and people in the distant past. Orunmila though is the divinity that own Ifa. Just like Ogun own metal.

I personally do not know how the blood sacrifice work. But I believe it would be fascinating to know before disregarding it.

Emmanystone:

Meaning, Esu is not evil, but to have a satan in the Bible, he was given the place of satan the devil?

But, the cult, what is it for?

The cult is the place where one can know more about Esu.

Emmanystone:

Okay. So, we settle for 'No satan' in the Yoruba cosmology/Mythology' (?)

Hmmm. I just learn something here. No being is totally evil in the African Traditional religion. No Heaven, no Hell.

Only the realm of the Ancestors.

Meaning the wickedness in this world will not be recompensed. No wonder the hearts of men are set in them to keep doing evil. No Recompense of Tribulation.

But, what if there's indeed Hellfire? I mean, what if A Yoruba traditionalist dies discovers there's indeed Hellfire, Heaven and satan?

A ṣègbé kan o sí. Eni guro ika, aya a je, omo re a je, oun na a wewe sun. One does not plant okra and expect to reap yam. It is more like a cause and effect. Who would judge a wild animal who feast on a little baby when the nature of that animal is to eat anything it can subdue and has flesh?

There is no Hell. Ifa didn't mention anything like that. We have Aboku sooro and no one has ever claimed he went to hell or stuff.

MuttleyLaff:
Meaning Esu has a similar evil modus operadi like Satan's
and so was given the place of satan the devil
The necessity for a name, is the mother of that substitution
The Yoruba bible translation had to be completed with a Yoruba name for Satan,

Esu's idiosyncrasy, apparently, fitted the bill like a hand fits in a glove

I think the new version of the Yoruba bible have corrected the anomaly and ttanslate Satan to Satani.

Why didnt Ajayi Crowther translate Jehovah as Orisha Oke, Mary as Moremi, Jesus as Orunmila and the likes?

FOLYKAZE:
I think the new version of the Yoruba bible have corrected the anomaly and ttanslate Satan to Satani.

Why didnt Ajayi Crowther translate Jehovah as Orisha Oke, Mary as Moremi, Jesus as Orunmila and the likes?

Thank you so much for taking the time to adequately respond to all my queries, trying to clear a seemingly muddled pool.

I will in a few hours respond to this and the preceded post.
I must say, and warn you that, how described Olodumare is a concern to me among other matters.

MuttleyLaff:


Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."
- Matthew 21:44

Anyone who stumbles over you that stone will be broken to pieces,
and it will crush anyone it falls on."
- Matthew 21:44 NLT

And in their hands they shall bear you up,
lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
- Luke 4:11

There was no need for that, except that you're giving him too much credit
Be unmindful of Matthew 21:44 at your own peril

All you've written above is hogwash.
No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more.
So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you.
No need to be hash.I know FOLYKAZE,
and he is completely right, it is hogwash, plus mostly unashamed copy and paste, lifted word for word, from online content

What I found amusing,
was that, I immediately knew the post, which at the end of, as a frightener, he appended shadeyinka moniker to, was a "copy and paste"
because I recognised the post's content being from a website, I had a long time ago, previously bookmarked due to it being informative.
You know me, living in the Bible, doesnt prevent me travelling and/or go places

please how can i hold access to an in information that is purely not mine, you sound so ridiculous . do i claim to be the owner of the message.... i am person who back my point with references..... i do not hold odu ifa, i have to back it up with reference available which is online.... i trust its genuity and that is copy and paste it.... apart form it tell me how is my message not independent.. i am not an authority, is it not better for me to copy and paste an authority statement.... i am sorry you sound bitter ... there is no claim i made here without honoring the copyright.....