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Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by butterflylion: 4:59pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman: He doesn't have to say it. It's in the "terms and conditions " He offers up his body and services in exchange for a reward. Others can see those services as disgusting but he gladly sees them as awesome. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by CuteMadridista: 5:01pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
hmmmmm |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by CuteMadridista: 5:07pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
AwesomeJ, buzz me when you're ready |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by dalaman: 5:08pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
butterflylion: Ogbeni just admit that you lied. Where did bobrisky declare that he is any body's slave for luxury? You can't ahow it and you made it up as usual abi? Continue 2 Likes |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by dalaman: 5:14pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
CuteMadridista: Even their bible clearly differentiates btw slaves and hired workers. 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. This verse clearly shows that there is a difference btw slaves and hired workers. But this or resident dishonest apologist are trying to tell us that we blind. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by butterflylion: 5:15pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman: As I said, what I am looking at is the context and not the word. Would you not say that bobrisky is currently being subjected to what many find inhuman yet he is enjoying it due to the gratification involved? There is a thread on nairaland currently where he is bragging about his proceeds gotten from sleeping with a man who happens to be a billionaire and their mutual agreement to keep him a secret (terms and conditions) Would you call what he is doing freedom or slavery. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by dalaman: 5:32pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
butterflylion: What is inhumane in two men having mutually agreed sex? Gay relationships are legal in many countries so how is that inhumane when same sex relationships are acceptable in many parts of the world? Many people hide their personal relationships from the public view for many reasons. Dbanj for example has refused to reveal who his girlfriend was till after they got married and he still reveals very little about his wife. What he is doing to total freedombecause he can do what ever he likes and say what ever he likes. He eve tells people about his relationship with a billionare even when he is living in a country that imprisons people for 14 years for gay relationships. But he is so much free that he is talking about it openly. Ogbeni you have no case. 2 Likes |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 5:37pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
I'll be here by 8:25pm. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by butterflylion: 5:43pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman: You always see what you want to see. My comment again below butterflylion: In the context of this discussion you can be likened to those who find it cool for bobrisky yet in the Same way you can be likened to those who do not find it cool regarding scriptures covering slavery and I am seen as the complete opposite of the above. Perspectives is all there is. I do not have to agree with you and neither you me. However this does not make either if us liars as you always enjoy throwing the word round. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by OtemAtum: 6:03pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
awesomeJ: Football players are paid huge sums of money and they can even sue the football club they are playing for, terminate their contracts at any point and some of them even earn more than the coaches who are parts of the employment committee. Slaves are not paid salaries.They are muzzled, pierced in the ears and used for all sorts of terrible jobs like animals 2 Likes |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by dalaman: 6:10pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
butterflylion: Even from the scriptures, the slavery as commanded was bad so much so that Yahweh warned the Jews not to practice it among each other. They were to do the slavery to others but were warned not to treat their fellow Jews that way. 5 Likes |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by CuteMadridista: 6:20pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
I just saw this now awesomeJ:absolutely not! even Yahweh said they mustn't treat fellow Israelites the way they would treat slaves football players sit and negotiate with the club, they even employ expert agents to make sure their interests are met and they aren't fleeced The player negotiates a clause upon which his contract can be terminated. they can negotiate that they have the right to leave for peanuts if they're not played for a particular number of minutes or apps They negotiate bonuses in terms of goals, cleansheets, trophies etc all these don't apply to biblical non Hebrew slaves who's opinion is not sought if injured, the club takes full care of the player and the club can't beat them to death also the player's children don't belong to the club, neither do the wives they marry even if the club has a hand in their marrying the woman
The only perspective I got is that your dishonesty is getting too much to bear 6 Likes |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by EazyMoh(m): 7:30pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
Instead of this your back-and-forth argument why not just compare the rights of slaves in Islam Vs Christianity/Judaism. That way you get a common ground for comparison. Mind you historians generally regard Islam as the second best thing to happen to slaves, second only to its abolisment finally in the 19th century. Some rights of slaves in Islam they have the rights to 1. Live 2. Own property 3. Marry 4. Eat the same type of food as their master 5. wear the same type of cloth as their master 6. Right to buy their freedom 7. Right to practice their religion of choice 8. Once a woman bears a child for her master she and the baby automatically become free people. 9. A Muslim shall never be ensalved 10. Only people who have actively perticipated in waging war against Muslims are liable to be enslaved.... |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by vaxx: 8:33pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
EazyMoh:there is nothing like second best thing, slavery is simply dehumanization. what is more worst than that. in islam a master can sleep with what his right hand possess even if it against her will. also enslaving captives of war in Islam jurisprudence is regarded as welfare . what kind of welfare is that when you are been denied your basic fundamental right, the right to associate with whomever you wish. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 8:57pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman:Quite a long post on misconceived opinions. 1. quote the verse wherein it was stated that every non Hebrew slave must be owned forever. 2. For slaves who were sold by their own relatives, they're obviously better off being sold as slaves. For those captured and overpowered-those taken as plunders of war, they're still better off, because the alternative would have been death for them. 3. You're bringing legality in here, that's not what we're talking. Slavery could be illegal in Nigeria today, but it certainly wasn't I. the world of that time, because, more than anything else, it was labour sales. 4.I didn't say foreign slaves gave themselves up for slavery, I said if a man chooses to sell himself or his relative into slavery, he is the one to blame. Should that be the case, the slave masters would obviously yet pay for the slave contract. 5. You're mistaken, thinking God could ever do anything bad. Whatever regulations you find in the Bible regarding slavery were mere the labour laws of the time. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:07pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman:Hey, mind your tone there, you wanna be rude, find some place else please. How would you know slaves couldn't be free? You're just showing your ignorance. Depending on the type of contract a footballer signs, he may or may not be able to leave a football club whenever he wishes, so it was with the slaves of that time. there were those who could be redeemed from the slavery contract. Take note of the fact that the Bible regards the deal as a contract between two parties, wherein labour is traded for money. Those who didn't earn wages were those who already got their wages upfront in terms of the purchase consideration. Imagine if a firm chooses to sign you up for a job. $20m for 2 years, if the $20m was paid as a lump sum on the day the contract was signed, would they yet have to pay you any more wage? 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:12pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
DeSepiero: I have given instances of the kind of relationship that did exist between slaves and masters at those times, I can yet give you much more, all of them confirm the fact that those slaves were merely employees. Whoever thinks otherwise should dig up any story in the Bible that portrays the slave/master relationship as anything different. Remember, I said story. I already gave 2 to support my position, I could give much more. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:17pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
DeSepiero:Not quite? If a father negotiates the terms of a job he wants to commit his 12-year old son to, would you see it as bad? Even if he chooses to sign up to terms that the boy is much inconvenient with, do you then blame the employer. This is a father who has said to the son, "I can't do anything at all to cater for you" Wouldn't it be a huge favour the employer does to the son? |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:24pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
CuteMadridista: Should Messi sign up a contract that sees him renouncing his rights to his wife and children to Barcelona, then legally, he has lost those rights to Barca. About a slave declaring that he doesn't want to be free, if you could think on it with an open mind, you'd see that it's proof of how comfortable slaves could get with their masters. They were employees basically, and just as folks don't want to leave a good job nowadays, there were slaves who wouldn't want to leave their masters at the time. Have an open mind to things bro, those folks were employees. To buttress that, mention a portion of the old testament where any other word was used to describe long-term staff/workers. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:27pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
CuteMadridista:You don't know this detail about the payment appropriation do you? You're merely assuming. Quote that verse again that says all non Hebrew slaves were to forever be slaves. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:30pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman: Where did you get that slaves were not involved in decisions regarding them? 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:48pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
CuteMadridista:Whatever rights the player has is definitely such as had been defined while he was entering the original contract with the FC, if he had signed to terms that didn't give him those rights, maybe due to the attractiveness of the cash, he wouldn't have any such rights. Meanwhile, if you read that entire chapter 26 of Lev you quoted, the points I have been making are obviously spelt out. 1. A slave gets his payment upfront, and that's equivalent to wages/salary. 2. Slaves could be redeemed by their close relatives. 3. Slaves who prosper could redeem their own selves. 4. Redemption involved returning money to the slave master, in exchange for the slave getting back his freedom which he earlier sold. 5. The calculation of a slave's price was daily wage * number of days in the slavery contract. Doesn't this yet confirm to you that it was basically employment? Na was for you guys o. 6. God said every Israelite was his own slave. That should make it obvious to you that when he says slaves he doesn't mean those to be subjected to constant inhumane treatments If the entire chap. 26 is too long, just read from vs 47-55. But reading the full chapter gives you a broader perspective. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 9:59pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman:Why do you just make silly assumptions? was it stated that Joseph's exceptional treatment meant inhumane treatment to other slaves? For the Israelites, it wasn't just slavery that caused their ill treatment. it was a case of oppression, which could have been meted to anyone slaves or not. Don't Nigerian leaders oppress the masses? is it cos the masses are slaves to them? And if you read where God foretold Abraham about the israelites stay in Egypt, God said, "they will be enslaved and oppressed 400 years". if slavery inherently had oppression, there wouldn't have been any need to say " enslaved and oppressed " it's cos the two are separate things that necessitated the use of both words. You'll find that statement in Gen 15:13 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by vaxx: 10:00pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
i perceive intentional lies on this thread, slavery is simply dehumanization and can never be compared to present day employment. how can you compare a human resources manager to a slave master? Even the name slave is far more derogatory, it's a mental and psychological one. This is case where the master truly believes he's superior and that slaves are his property and outsiders who are alien by origin, while the slaves believes he's no more than a servant, and lives believing he's inferior throughout his slave-hood. slaves do not enjoy the same equality statures with his master. i think christian should argue on this part, if the biblical instruction on slavery is relative or absolute to society when it was given instead of playing mental gymnastic that is obvious. it will have been more interesting. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by EazyMoh(m): 10:12pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
vaxx:Oga no be me talk am o, na renown historians that are professors in Islam and middle eastern studies. So in all your cherry picking you ignored dozens of verses in the Qur'an which are commanding Muslims to free slaves on many occasions both as a measure for remission of sin and for reward by God. Throughout history of slavery in Mankind known history the best time to be a slave is during the early years of Islam and belong to a pious Muslim master. This was proven by Umar Bin Khattab's conquest of Jerusalem. Umar and his personal "slave" rode to the city on a single came by taking turns to ride. By the time they reached outskirts of Jerusalem it was the turn of the slave and when they entered the people of the city mistook the slave as the caliph because he (the slave) was the one riding the camel while the Caliph was on foot. They basically wear the same type of cloth and look pretty much the same. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 10:14pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
dalaman:What do you think that difference is? It's the difference between a daily labourer (casual staff), and a full-time long term staff. if all workers were hired workers, then there would be no need to used the adjective hired. But workers were mainly in two categories then: Hired(casual); Slaves( long term) The casualnes of hired workers is why you don't find much regulations regarding them, other than the fact the they must be paid their wages. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 10:18pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
OtemAtum:Quote a place in the Bible where slaves were treated as animals. you're basically making funny assumptions. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by vaxx: 10:21pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
EazyMoh:i am less concern about those things you wrote up there, my stands is, slavery is a barbaric attitude, thank GOD for civilization. should there be slavery in the first place?, thank GOD we have move ahead... i am not interested in debunking Islam on this thread. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 10:30pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
CuteMadridista: Note that the reference to football players is the fact that you people think the fact that slaves were called properties of their masters, meant they were subjected to inhumane treatments. I gave the illustration, that an ignorant person who hears that clubs sell and loan out football players, would also think that players were treated as commodities and so were experiencing inhumane treatments. Just as the guy who assumes a funny thought regarding player/club relationship is wrong, so are you guys who assume funny thoughts on the slave/master relationship regulated in the Bible. It was a long term labour contract, everyone including Hebrews could be sold into it. God said if a non Hebrew wants to sell himself as a slave, Hebrews could buy him, but if a Hebrew wants to do same, his fellow Hebrew should rather employ him on a casual basis. Do you know the reason he gave for that? He said the Israelites were already his own slaves, and so if you want their service, it'd have to be on a non permanent basis. This should be clear enough right? 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by awesomeJ(m): 10:42pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
vaxx: Go read the story of how Abraham's servant got Isaac his wife. Check out how it was reported that Laban- an heir was all over him. Obviously whom Laban saw was a very big boy, and not just some folk with chronic inferiority complex as you suppose. Or check out Joseph, he was CEO. Try, try really hard to come up with one story from the Bible that shows slaves as treated horribly or as animals. 1 Like |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by EazyMoh(m): 10:42pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
vaxx:Of course slavery in whatever form is very bad. This is including corporate slavery you can find today. You were the one that quoted me trying to argue what I quoted what many learned historians have agreed. If you were to have come in 7th century, the best thing you could have done was to reduce slavery and make sure their fundamental human rights were guaranteed. You can't possibly do more than what Islam did! The best thing to happen to slavery to which Islam was agreed to be the second was it's final abolisment as I mentioned earlier. It is important to note as well that the main drive for the final abolisment was as a result of industrial revolution rather than "civilization" as you put it. If cheap slave labor was not made obsolete by farm machinery, slavery wouldn't have being abolished. So the only movement to improve welfare of slaves based on a humanitarian compassion was Islam and we'd all be fair to give it the credit. |
Re: Spartan117 And Awesomej Vs Dalaman And Me On Biblical Views Of Slavery by vaxx: 11:24pm On Mar 21, 2018 |
EazyMoh:this is indeed an insult for anybody in this category, as i said i am less concern about your findings, slavery was encouraged in the quran and it was also empowered as well to the extent laws concerning how slaves should be treated were imprinted in the quran. which shows slavery itself is an acceptable way of life in the Muslim word. if quran claim to be the final testament of GOD, she could have discourage this dehumanization rather than encourage it. is the allah of 7th century difference from 21 century, remember this rules are divine and not given by primitive 7th century human mind, unless you also agree that allah mind was primitive as at then or was the instruction Muhammad opinion? The main source of slavery abolishment is the rise of human right which was facilitated by political movement and struggles, the bone of civilization .it was called the age of enlightenment, The abolitionist movements in Britain and America and the revolutionary ideals of the Enlightenment, and the French and American Revolution, all these movements affected change through political advocacy and violent and nonviolent struggle which reshape the world. for example ,France temporarily abolished slavery during the French Revolution but Napoleon resumed it in the colonies after he took power, however the ideals were present and common within the French and American Revolution and the Enlightenment before it begin to affect the thinking of millions of people around the world, therefore the rise of human rights throughout the world cause slavery to seem like a barbaric institution instead of a common practice. industrial revolution just followed up. and lastly if there is anything like cooperate slave, some ideology found in some books can be blamed. please do not let me debunk Islam. it is OK |
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