[quote author=Nihilstjnr post=66234120]

Those guys are comparing Legacies, not pitting two fighters against each other.

Obviously Ali will have the greater Legacy because of the the fighters he fought in his era, what he acheieved and his status as a cultural icon.

But if they bring Prime Ali vs Prime Tyson, nothing like rope-a-dope, or sting like a butterfly nonsense. Tyson would beat Ali back into reclaiming Cassius Clay[/quote]

Aaaaargh

You guys should open a boxing thread already na

This argument is so boring

Meanwhile travelling a long distance with beautiful and nice galz inside the same bus with u is so much fun

My God will reply the driver for speeding

afrodoc2:


Almost everybody on that thread agreed agreed that Tyson was well below Ali, apart from Coogar who often argued authoritatively about things he knew nothing about.
I only have one question: Have you watched the full fights of the greats from the 70s? See, Tyson would have been at best no 4 behind Ali, Foreman, Frazier. Tyson had power but Foreman had more power, Shavers had more power, Ron Lyle and Frazier were close. The difference was that most of them also had strong chins.

Tyson ran through a weakend division. The guys he beat did not accomplish anything legendary before or after Tyson and whenever he met another great he struggled. 1980's heavyweight boxing was not great, the 80s belonged to the welterweights and middleweights.
Foreman came out of retirement after being an actor and a pastor and was running through them also in his 40s and none of them could knock him out the way Ali did when he (Foreman) was in his prime.

I can agree with Alli even though the fight didnt happen But Frazier Foreman will be murdered on that ring

But Tyson will destroyed Holmes was epic. This was the same Holmes people are rating as a great. The best they can do to Tyson to is to holding and hugging him. Punch for Punch Tyson destroys any of them
See the confidence and way Tyson was chasing them all over the ring and the opponent running all over like scared sissies. I hate boxers who are afraid to punch or just depend on hugging it out for the match. Thats why I am not impressed with Mayweather Hollyfield, Lewis etc

Tyson vs Holmes

afrodoc2:


Larry Holmes was 39yrs old and way way past his prime, Michael Spinks was a barely decent heavyweight in a poor quality era where Witherspoon, Bonecrusher Smith, Fat Trevor Berbick and co were champions.

All this one is story. Your argument is that Mike Tyson did not fight Top Class Opposition.

I don't need him to fight top class opposition to predict who he would have beat.

His Legacy is different from a theoretical matchup between two fighters.

I'm looking at the technique and his style in the late 80s and comparing it to Mohammed Ali's style and I'm confident, Ali would have been bagged up like Weed.

Tyson switched up his style in the 90s and went off the rails. Went to jail a couple of times, and struggled with mental illness.

Ring magazine will look at his entire career including these dark times where he was skipping training sessions in camp to go and party.

I'm looking at a very specific era. A very specific year.

1988 Iron Mike was GOD. That 20 year old will have killed ANYBODY. Ali especially would have been finished like Mo Salah

afrodoc2:


Larry Holmes was 39yrs old and way way past his prime, Michael Spinks was a barely decent heavyweight in a poor quality era where Witherspoon, Bonecrusher Smith, Fat Trevor Berbick and co were champions.
First time Tyson met quality he folded. When Stoke face York city you think dey sabi but when they face Real Madrid you know say shoe get size. Tyson beat some decent fighters and lots of bums, at the first sign of adversity and legendary quality he folded like a canopy.

You were at best an amateur boxer. Hall of fame heavyweight champions, Hall of fame analysts and journalists all agree that Ali was better than Tyson, put some respek on Cassius Clay's name.

Who was this quality? Buster Douglas? The guy Tyson went to fight while drunk? The Hasheem Rahman of his time?

Just like Leganes can beat Real Madrid in an off day does not mean they are in the same class. Tyson made all the fighters in his time look like bums when he was knocking them out in 3 rounds while dem foreman Spinks Frazier will be hugging and kissing for 12 rounds

Tyson went to no Olympics, a street fighter, no media darling, he didnt fight for any civil rights All he did was get on the ring and send people out cold

raumdeuter:


I can agree with Alli even though the fight didnt happen But Frazier Foreman will be murdered on that ring

But Tyson will destroyed Holmes was epic. This was the same Holmes people are rating as a great. The best they can do to Tyson to is to holding and hugging him. Punch for Punch Tyson destroys any of them
See the confidence and way Tyson was chasing them all over the ring and the opponent running all over like scared sissies. I hate boxers who are afraid to punch or just depend on hugging it out for the match. Thats why I am not impressed with Mayweather Hollyfield, Lewis etc

Tyson vs Holmes

The boy doing that to Larry Holmes is just 20 years old. The same age as you in SS2

IF Tyson dont kill him, It dont count!

raumdeuter:


I can agree with Alli even though the fight didnt happen But Frazier Foreman will be murdered on that ring

But Tyson will destroyed Holmes was epic. This was the same Holmes people are rating as a great. The best they can do to Tyson to is to holding and hugging him. Punch for Punch Tyson destroys any of them
See the confidence and way Tyson was chasing them all over the ring and the opponent running all over like scared sissies. I hate boxers who are afraid to punch or just depend on hugging it out for the match. Thats why I am not impressed with Mayweather Hollyfield, Lewis etc

Tyson vs Holmes

No wonder your hatred for moanrimhoe runs deep

raumdeuter:


I can agree with Alli even though the fight didnt happen But Frazier Foreman will be murdered on that ring

But Tyson will destroyed Holmes was epic. This was the same Holmes people are rating as a great. The best they can do to Tyson to is to holding and hugging him. Punch for Punch Tyson destroys any of them
See the confidence and way Tyson was chasing them all over the ring and the opponent running all over like scared sissies. I hate boxers who are afraid to punch or just depend on hugging it out for the match. Thats why I am not impressed with Mayweather Hollyfield, Lewis etc

Tyson vs Holmes

Dayo, Holmes was 39yrs old them and over the hill. At that same age of 39 Tyson was being knocked out by no-name guys like Danny Williams and Kevin McBride.
You want to hear another one? A 34yr old Holyfield knocked out a 30yr old Tyson but a younger Holyfield in his prime could not knock out a 42yr old Foreman or even 43yr old Holmes.

afrodoc2:


Dayo, Holmes was 39yrs old them and over the hill. At that same age of 39 Tyson was being knocked out by no-name guys like Danny Williams and Kevin McBride.
You want to hear another one? A 34yr old Holyfield knocked out a 30yr old Tyson but a younger Holyfield in his prime could not knock out a 42yr old Foreman or even 43yr old Holmes.

if it's that one.

Holmes and Berbick both beat Ali

18 year old Tyson beat the living daylights out of Berbick, and repeated the trick 2 years later with Holmes

afrodoc2:


Dayo, Holmes was 39yrs old them and over the hill. At that same age of 39 Tyson was being knocked out by no-name guys like Danny Williams and Kevin McBride.
You want to hear another one? A 34yr old Holyfield knocked out a 30yr old Tyson but a younger Holyfield in his prime could not knock out a 42yr old Foreman or even 43yr old Holmes.

Holyfield beat a 30yr old Tyson who already spent time in jail and no longer the boxer he used to be

At Tysons peak, I doubt any peak boxer can stand him, This guy was sending people out cold in 3 rounds max and the only way Holyfield and co could stop him was the cowardly tactic of holding hugging and headbutting

Nihilstjnr:


if it's that one.

Holmes and Berbick both beat Ali

18 year old Tyson beat the living daylights out of Berbick, and repeated the trick 2 years later with Holmes

How does that relate? I am saying Tyson was knocked out at 30yrs of age by a man who could not knockout Foreman and Holmes when they were above 40yrs. Tyson's chin was suspect. Every time a great puncher tested it he wobbled like Bruce Grobbelaar and he fell enough times.
Foreman came back in his mid 40s to be knocking out people in Tyson's era. That era was poor, a man in his mid 40s became heavyweight champion. That tells you what you need to know about that era.

I am yet to see the name of the great fighter that Tyson beat in that fighter's prime o.

raumdeuter:


Holyfield beat a 30yr old Tyson who already spent time in jail and no longer the boxer he used to be

At Tysons peak, I doubt any peak boxer can stand him, This guy was sending people out cold in 3 rounds max and the only way Holyfield and co could stop him was the cowardly tactic of holding hugging and headbutting

Name one great fighter Tyson beat in that fighter's prime?

Tyson was sending out bums in 3 rounds. It was a weak division and this was known even before Tyson arrived, that was why the attention then was already on the middleweights and welterweights.
When Tyson faced great talents at their prime he crumbled like a maggi cube.

Cruxifizio:
No wonder your hatred for moanrimhoe runs deep

I hate fighters or sportsmen who use cowardly tactics, Come out and lets duck it out not trying to win on technicalities

raumdeuter:


Holyfield beat a 30yr old Tyson who already spent time in jail and no longer the boxer he used to be

At Tysons peak, I doubt any peak boxer can stand him, This guy was sending people out cold in 3 rounds max and the only way Holyfield and co could stop him was the cowardly tactic of holding hugging and headbutting

41% of all Mike tyson fights ended in a 1st round KO

41%

That's ridiculous.

12% of all his fights ended in a 2nd round KO

Basically the man won more than half all his fights in under 6 minutes, and that vast majority his wins came withing 3 flipping minutes ffs

Machine

Nihilstjnr:


All this one is story. Your argument is that Mike Tyson did not fight Top Class Opposition.

I don't need him to fight top class opposition to predict who he would have beat.

His Legacy is different from a theoretical matchup between two fighters.

I'm looking at the technique and his style in the late 80s and comparing it to Mohammed Ali's style and I'm confident, Ali would have been bagged up like Weed.

Tyson switched up his style in the 90s and went off the rails. Went to jail a couple of times, and struggled with mental illness.

Ring magazine will look at his entire career including these dark times where he was skipping training sessions in camp to go and party.

I'm looking at a very specific era. A very specific year.

1988 Iron Mike was GOD. That 20 year old will have killed ANYBODY. Ali especially would have been finished like Mo Salah

A prime Alli between 64-67 would beat anybody..Alli was untouchable,Alli ducked 21punches in 10 seconds with just head movement during that tim.. Also Sonny Liston at the time was more intimidating that Tyson, Liston was beaten like a baby by a 22yr old Alli.
All the guys that beat Tyson were significantly taller and had longer reach, add that to Alli's superior foot speed and his ring savvyness and Alli's superior psychological advantage..Alli would have gotten into Tyson's head even before the fight and when the fight starts, Alli would win.

afrodoc2:
Name one great fighter Tyson beat in that fighter's prime?

EVeryone Tyson beat will become a dud fighter because he beat them in record time.

Who were those great fighters Alli beat? Foreman, Frazier? Holmes? The same one SPinks punished. This is Spinks below

Look at the punch that almost yanked his head off here. Say person get strong chin na because he never hit better punch like Tysons



This is Spinks lying on the floor, All withing round 1. See the look on his face see his eyeballs. That guy saw his maker in those few seconds

Nihilstjnr:


41% of all Mike tyson fights ended in a 1st round KO

41%

That's ridiculous.

12% of all his fights ended in a 2nd round KO

Basically the man won more than half all his fights in under 6 minutes, and that vast majority his wins came withing 3 flipping minutes ffs

Machine

Should tell you all you need to know about their lack of quality. He once fought 4 times in 2 months against no hoppers that D'amato had organized to beef his stats. His 14 to 15 opponents no even get wikipedia page , the guy was knocking out janitors and street vendors in those early days.

Please who is the great fighter that Tyson beat in that fighter's prime?

So we should just trust his flat track bullying of all these puff puff opponents he had? We should not count the sleep Buster Douglas gave him, or the beating from Lewis and Holyfield or the fact that against Holyfield he became a frustrated rabid dog and started biting in the boxing ring?

afrodoc2:


How does that relate? I am saying Tyson was knocked out at 30yrs of age by a man who could not knockout Foreman and Holmes when they were above 40yrs. Tyson's chin was suspect. Every time a great puncher tested it he wobbled like Bruce Grobbelaar and he fell enough times.
Foreman came back in his mid 40s to be knocking out people in Tyson's era. That era was poor, a man in his mid 40s became heavyweight champion. That tells you what you need to know about that era.

I am yet to see the name of the great fighter that Tyson beat in that fighter's prime o.

Tyson was at his peak in 1988. By the time he fought Buster Douglas 2 years later he was already on Bipolar medication. By 91 he would be in court for rape. He wouldn't fight again till 95 and by then his personal life was more or less in chaos. His fighting style changed significantly when he came out of jail and in effect 88 Tyson and 90s Tyson are 2 completely different fighters who happen to share a name.

I don't really care who he fought post 88 or maybe even 89 when he destroyed Frank Bruno. The point is that 88 was his peak period, and that kid would have beaten any gaddem person.

raumdeuter:


EVeryone Tyson beat will become a dud fighter because he beat them in record time.

Who were those great fighters Alli beat? Foreman, Frazier? Holmes? The same one SPinks punished. This is Spinks below

Look at the punch that almost yanked his head off here. Say person get strong chin na because he never hit better punch like Tysons



This is Spinks lying on the floor, All withing round 1. See the look on his face see his eyeballs. That guy saw his maker in those few seconds

Can you please GIF to Jose Ribalta fight? That's another one that sparred with Ali for Thrilla in Manila

That guy chopped the most brutal Tyson Uppercut ever. The look on is face afterwards is comdey gold

Night don reach, don pass sef. No reputable analyst, historian, website names Tyson as no 1. He didnt have the chin or the stamina and his much vaunted punching power was not even no 1.
Like i said we will just have to agree to disagree.

Nihilstjnr:


Can you please GIF to Jose Ribalta fight? That's another one that sparred with Ali for Thrilla in Manila

That guy chopped the most brutal Tyson Uppercut ever. The look on is face afterwards is comdey gold

Ribalta that was 12yrs old sparred with Ali for Thrilla in Manilla?
Good night.

jonsnow92:
A prime Alli between 64-67 would beat anybody..Alli was untouchable,Alli ducked 21punches in 10 seconds with just head movement during that tim.. Also Sonny Liston at the time was more intimidating that Tyson, Liston was beaten like a baby by a 22yr old Alli.
All the guys that beat Tyson were significantly taller and had longer reach, add that to Alli's superior foot speed and his ring savvyness and Alli's superior psychological advantage..Alli would have gotten into Tyson's head even before the fight and when the fight starts, Alli would win.

Joe Frazier already proved that Alli was a sucker for aggresive inside fighters, and Tyson had a far better defence than Frazier did.

See this chairman talking about Head movement.

Fam you can't duck your ribs.

Tyson(and Fraizer) didnt have time to stand up and trade jabs with Ali. The man was 6'3 with arms as long as skipping rope. Tyson was 5'10. Frazier the same height.

As a boxer, when you don't have the reach advantage, you close the distance. Go and ask Ali what happened to him when Frazier was agressively closing his angles and beating him like Micheal Jackson. If Tyson had got that same opportunity, I promise you he would have broken Ali's ribs.

88 Tyson was God.

afrodoc2:


Ribalta that was 12yrs old sparred with Ali for Thrilla in Manilla?
Good night.

My Bad.

I sha know that Ribalta Sparred with Ali. And one of the guys that Tyson beat sparred with Ali for Thrilla in Manilla

Probably Larry Holmes then

afrodoc2:


Should tell you all you need to know about their lack of quality. He once fought 4 times in 2 months against no hoppers that D'amato had organized to beef his stats. His 14 to 15 opponents no even get wikipedia page , the guy was knocking out janitors and street vendors in those early days.

Please who is the great fighter that Tyson beat in that fighter's prime?

So we should just trust his flat track bullying of all these puff puff opponents he had? We should not count the sleep Buster Douglas gave him, or the beating from Lewis and Holyfield or the fact that against Holyfield he became a frustrated rabid dog and started biting in the boxing ring?

By the second Holyfield fight, Tyson was done. I think most people know that.

Like I've said to you, I'm not looking at Tyson over his whole career. I'm looking at him in his prime, and that was in 1988.

How many of Ali's opponents have wiki pages sef

Most champions clime on a ladder of journeymen and ring fodder to get to the top

raumdeuter:


I hate fighters or sportsmen who use cowardly tactics, Cose out and lets duck it out not trying to win on technicalities

All mehn are not equal in terms of talent, skill and strength....that's why people will always take a position which will give them a better chance and increase the probability of them winning or not losing shamefully. And no matter how ugly it may come across to you....it is what it is.....A GAME....

Nihilstjnr:


Joe Frazier already proved that Alli was a sucker for aggresive inside fighters, and Tyson had a far better defence than Frazier did.

See this chairman talking about Head movement.

Fam you can't duck your ribs.

Tyson(and Fraizer) didnt have time to stand up and trade jabs with Ali. The man was 6'3 with arms as long as skipping rope. Tyson was 5'10. Frazier the same height.

As a boxer, when you don't have the reach advantage, you close the distance. Go and ask Ali what happened to him when Frazier was agressively closing his angles and beating him like Micheal Jackson. If Tyson had got that same opportunity, I promise you he would have broken Ali's ribs.

88 Tyson was God.

The premise is Prime Alli vs Prime Mike.. Frazier gave all tough time when Alli was out of boxing for 3 solid years, in his 'prime' Alli had clearly lost his legs and had to reinvent his style in order to take more punishments and become more patient.

A prime Alli won't allow Tyson come close, talkies of giving him rib punishment.Alli would move 2 steps back, tip toe round the ring and dance for 10 rounds, It'll get frustrating for Tyson and Tyson showed he couldn't go the distance laye.

Liston was also an inside fighter(not as aggressive as Tyson though) but still Cassius beat him so tay baba go form shoulder injury after fight.

jonsnow92:
The premise is Prime Alli vs Prime Mike.. Frazier gave all tough time when Alli was out of boxing for 3 solid years, in his 'prime' Alli had clearly lost his legs and had to reinvent his style in order to take more punishments and become more patient.

A prime Alli won't allow Tyson come close, talkies of giving him rib punishment.Alli would move 2 steps back, tip toe round the ring and dance for 10 rounds, It'll get frustrating for Tyson and Tyson showed he couldn't go the distance laye.

Liston was also an inside fighter(not as aggressive as Tyson though) but still Cassius beat him so tay baba go form shoulder injury after fight.

There was nobody that fought like Tyson before or since.

Mohammed Ali had no defence. All he had was his incredible footspeed and reflexes.

One of the things you learn as soon as you go in the ring is how to close off angles. When you control the centre of the ring, you control the fight.

Ali relied on jabbing while dancing backwards to keep his opponent at bay. 88 Tyson had both hands up in front of his face at all times, and would advance straight forward crouching. Ali's only option would be to make illegal body shots to the top of his head.

Go and watch the Frazier fights again. It had nothing to do with age, after all Ali technically won two of the 3. But when you look at the styles involved in both, you would understand exactly why Ali suffered so much in that fight.

And Tyson was a better fighter on the inside than Frazier.

I cant overemphasize this - you control the centre, you control the fight. 88 Tyson owned the centre bruv

jonsnow92:
The premise is Prime Alli vs Prime Mike.. Frazier gave all tough time when Alli was out of boxing for 3 solid years, in his 'prime' Alli had clearly lost his legs and had to reinvent his style in order to take more punishments and become more patient.

A prime Alli won't allow Tyson come close, talkies of giving him rib punishment.Alli would move 2 steps back, tip toe round the ring and dance for 10 rounds, It'll get frustrating for Tyson and Tyson showed he couldn't go the distance laye.

Liston was also an inside fighter(not as aggressive as Tyson though) but still Cassius beat him so tay baba go form shoulder injury after fight.

That was the style everyone planned to use with Tyson. Keep him on the perimeter, jab him and hold him

Tyson knew this and he came inside aggressively, delivered his punches hit the target and was out like strike 3

Cruxifizio:


All mehn are not equal in terms of talent, skill and strength....that's why people will always take a position which will give them a better chance and increase the probability of them winning or not losing shamefully. And no matter how ugly it may come across to you....it is what it is.....A GAME....

I agree. Thats why some are remembered and some are not. Some winners are reference points and some are barely remembered. Thats like the difference between getting a 100A and a 72A.

Nihilstjnr:


There was nobody that fought like Tyson before or since.

Mohammed Ali had no defence. All he had was his incredible footspeed and reflexes.

One of the things you learn as soon as you go in the ring is how to close off angles. When you control the centre of the ring, you control the fight.

Ali relied on jabbing while dancing backwards to keep his opponent at bay. 88 Tyson had both hands up in front of his face at all times, and would advance straight forward crouching. Ali's only option would be to make illegal body shots to the top of his head.

Go and watch the Frazier fights again. It had nothing to do with age, after all Ali technically won two of the 3. But when you look at the styles involved in both, you would understand exactly why Ali suffered so much in that fight.

And Tyson was a better fighter on the inside than Frazier.

I cant overemphasize this - you control the centre, you control the fight. 88 Tyson owned the centre bruv

Bro Frazier was able to get back in the fight in Mannilla because he had Endurance and Stamina,which Clearly Tyson didn't have as fights wore on.

Its true, Tyson controlled the centre but Alli was a more calculative fighter and stronger physically, Only those guys who fought Alli recognised how physically Strong Alli was. He was able to tie down monsters like Frazier, Foreman and the like, wear them out physically, simply by restraining their arms and forcing the referee to separate them, but not without leaning on them and forcing their heads down for a bit. With time this would get to tyson and he'll tire out..Tyson would try to close the distance and draw Alli to the centre,Ali would clinch like he did with foreman and frazier all through, The ref forces them to separate, Ali fires off a couple of shots, Tyson rushes in, Ali clinches, cycle continues. Both men would get tired, but Ali would still be the man with the taller body, longer reach, and be the one landing punches.

raumdeuter:


That was the style everyone planned to use with Tyson. Keep him on the perimeter, jab him and hold him

Tyson knew this and he came inside aggressively, delivered his punches hit the target and was out like strike 3

Everyone isn't Alli, No Heavyweight danced like Alli, before and After Alli no Heavyweight comes close with his superb footwork.

Are you also of the sentiment that Prime Tyson would beat Prime Alli?

jonsnow92:
Everyone isn't Alli, No Heavyweight danced like Alli, before and After Alli no Heavyweight comes close with his superb footwork.
Are you also of the sentiment that Prime Tyson would beat Prime Alli?

I dont know if Tyson will beat peak Alli or vice versa my opinion is if Alli is the best Tyson is top 3 at his peak of all time