Butterflyleo:


We are talking about DAS and euthanasia and not just DAS.

You somehow seem to always have experiences directly linked to topics of discussion

Isn't that very peculiar and a gamblers dream?

And by the way, the worst born condition is a 3RD DEGREE BURN and not A 1ST DEGREE. Your alleged friend died through negligence and your analogy does not meet the standard of DAS or euthanasia.

dalaman:


Whats wrong with me sharing my experince that relates to the topic of discussion?

So a person who was burnt and whose parents prayed to their God to take his life doesnt meet the standard of DAS? What then is the standard for DAS?

The topic is about DAS and NOT euthanasia Mr lie lie. I know you want to lie and turn it to euthanasia but it isn't. It is about DAS.

Butterflyleo:


The serpent pushed eve subtly but she made her decision but did the serpent escape his own punishment for the same subtle push?

CuteMadridista:


Exactly! This is what I've been repeating but it seems I'm talking to a brick wall. DAS is the topic and DAS is different from Euthanasia even though they are similar in many ways

They're busy attacking a strawman

I don't think there's really any intelligent argument against DAS and I was hoping to see some that I never considered but its been unintelligent and ignorant arguments I've seen so far

Butterflyleo:


If I shared mine which always matched any discussion put up on nairaland what would be your reaction? be honest!

Did the patient say he wanted to die?

The discussion is about DAS and euthanasia. And you seriously need to stop with your constant "Mr lie lie" nonsense its stale already.

CuteMadridista:
I fully endorse Doctor Assisted Suicide

dalaman:


Mr lie lie is already trying to make it about euthanasia when the topic is about DAS.

Gggg102:



the serpent was punished for subtly pushing eve to disobeying the law. disobedience was against God's law and he convinced someone to break the law hence his punishment.

the law against das is human and unlike God's law, can be changed. the doctors are trying to get das part of the law, so it wouldn't be illegal to suggest das. so they can't be punished for suggesting it.

if das was legal, it wouldn't be a crime to suggest it. unlike the snake suggesting something that was illegal.


the snake was punished for pushing eve to break the law. eve was in charge of her decision, the snake did not decide for her.

if das is legal, the doctor can't be punished for pushing the patient to get das. the doctor will not be in charge of the patient's decision. he won't decide for him.

it wasn't the snake fault that eve agreed to the suggestion.

it isn't the doctor's fault the patient agreed to the suggestion.

snake was punished for suggesting something illegal.

doctor can't be punished for suggesting something legal.

CuteMadridista:

they've been barking up the wrong tree since this discussion started simply out of religious emotions mixed with ignorance while trying hard to sound logical (an impossible task). now they've seen the error of their ways and are stylishly trying to change the topic as they can't give any argument against DAS

Butterflyleo:


Your words in bold and those in red confirm my position. You really need to look at your own words critically in order to see the far reaching effects a subtle prod can have. Don't respond just yet. First of all, look at what I made bold in your comment in a thorough manner and let the implications reveal themselves to you

CAPSLOCKED:




THIS WILL BE VERY USEFUL IN NIGERIA.

CuteMadridista:

they've been barking up the wrong tree since this discussion started simply out of religious emotions mixed with ignorance while trying hard to sound logical (an impossible task). now they've seen the error of their ways and are stylishly trying to change the topic as they can't give any argument against DAS

Physician-assisted suicide: The voluntary termination of one's own life by administration of a lethal substance with the direct or indirect assistance of a physician. Physician-assisted suicide is the practice of providing a competent patient with a prescription for medication for the patient to use with the primary intention of ending his or her own life.

Physician-assisted suicide has its proponents and its opponents. Among the opponents are some physicians who believe it violates the fundamental tenet of medicine and believe that doctors should not assist in suicides because to do so is incompatible with the doctor's role as a healer.

Euthanasia: A doctor is allowed by law to end a person's life by a painless means, as long as the patient and their family agree. Assisted suicide: A doctor assists a patient to commit suicide if they request it.

CuteMadridista:
DAS would be very useful everywhere so long they put reasonable laws in place like Oregon did to prevent abuse although Oregon's DAS laws could use some tweaking

Gggg102:



what implications?

Butterflyleo:


Imagine this, a hospital needs a heart donor for a very important person who is willing to pay heavily and suddenly an accident victim is rushed in whom after checks is discovered that his heart would be a match for the one who needs it.

The person brought in has no family available and he is put in an induced coma to help with the pain and damage while being treated.

Doctor informs the one who needs the heart that they have found a match but he is still alive but in a coma. Heart needs man appeals to the doctor to do the needful because he needs that heart and is willing to pay a huge amount of money for it.

Doctor holds the power to take it keep the life of this patient so he walks in to carry our a routine check and in the process injects a delayed untraceable substance into the intravenous fluid being passed into the coma patient and walks out. 1hour later, patient begins to code and suffers a massive cardiac arrest and is unable to be revived.

During his autopsy in same hospital, the coroner who is also a partner in crime with the doctor , harvests his heart and they seal him up. Heart needs man gets his heart from an unwilling donor who had no idea what was even going on because he was deliberately induced into coma.

The implications are numerous when viewed properly and that is why the medical world are not embracing DAS or euthanasia with open arms and many are still resisting because they know the far reaching implications based on what they see and know that happens daily in their field.

A sick man who wills his estate to his caregiver can be giving DAS with a false presentation of consent from the already sick man. After all the caregiver would have his signature available and so on . This is similar with how Michael Jackson died due to a deliberate act by his physician when he deliberatelt administered propofol as treatment for insomnia for Michael despite knowing that Propofol is normally given in a hospital or a clinical setting with close monitoring and is mostly used before someone has surgery and is not indicated or approved as a sleep aid. He only got to serve 2 out of his 4yr jail sentence. All this happened without the knowledge of Michael Jackson because he trusted him.

The major implication is that grey areas regarding life and death are being handed to the doctors and believe me when I say that its only going to get worse.

An impatient doctor can push and keep pushing for DAS or euthanasia. An angry doctor can do same. A sadistic doctor can also do same. The implications are endless

Gggg102:



big hole in your analogy.

there was no consent anywhere.

Butterflyleo:


Read it again. Consent can easily be doctored or falsified.

Depends on how the doctor goes about it and how desperate the need is.

Gggg102:


in the first analogy there was no consent at all be it sincere, doctored or falsified.


in the other one, the caretaker would still have carried out his objective without das.

almost all systems can be rigged. does that mean the whole system be scrapped. also, I don't think the das would be made in a manner that it could be rigged.

Gggg102:


in the first analogy there was no consent at all be it sincere, doctored or falsified.


in the other one, the caretaker would still have carried out his objective without das.

almost all systems can be rigged. does that mean the whole system be scrapped. also, I don't think the das would be made in a manner that it could be rigged.

CuteMadridista:


I read the analogy and those are nonsensical argument and lots of reaching all to argue against DAS

1. The first analogy isn't DAS at all as there's no consent from the victim. DAS has no blame for that at all and would've happened with or without DAS in place. its a very useless analogy and an attempt to blame DAS for what is ,probably, already happening which is akin to blaming Buhari for Natural Disasters that occur in USA

Also it should be noted that Oregon (who's laws on DAS are very sensible and I agree with majority of their DAS laws) prevents such from happening as:

A: the patient needs to ask for DAS 2x with at least 15days difference between both to be in consideration for DAS so in order for the doctor to forge the Docs he would have his work cut out as he would need to do a lot of forging and forge the time the patient was flown in which means he would need the cooperation of the emergency services that brought the patient, forge the receptionist register, forge a lot of other records which also includes things like CCTVs meaning he'll need cooperation of the whole security team to wipe out the CCTV, wipe the memory(ies) of whoever witnessed the accident.

B. The patient must provide a written request to his or her physician, signed in the presence of two witnesses. if he successfully surmounts A then he would need at least 2 accomplices to surmount this one

C. An external physician is required to come in and assess the situation too to confirm the diagnosis, prognosis and make sure the patient is aware of what he's requesting. "doctor organ transplant" needs to bribe the external physician or something to get past this hurdle


Let's be sincere with ourselves here, if a doctor is able to cross all these hurdles on his way to killing a patient then DAS's LEGALISATION WASN'T THE PROBLEM! the problem was far bigger than DAS and dare I say DAS actually protects the interest of the patient in this situation and makes "doctor organ transplant"'s job a lot more difficult than it would've if it weren't there.....



The second one also faces the same sets of problems and why would a care giver be aware he's awarding him his estate? this shows a leak either from the lawyer or the patient himself and what happened would've happened regardless of DAS being legalised or not



At the end of the day if these kind of stories are what they have against DAS then they're really not against DAS but are asking for stricter rules to avoid abuse which I think Oregon laws work well to prevent even though I think its still not perfect but its pretty close to perfection

CuteMadridista:


I read the analogy and those are nonsensical argument and lots of reaching all to argue against DAS

1. The first analogy isn't DAS at all as there's no consent from the victim. DAS has no blame for that at all and would've happened with or without DAS in place. its a very useless analogy and an attempt to blame DAS for what is ,probably, already happening is akin to blaming Buhari for Natural Disasters that occur in USA

Also it should be noted that Oregon (who's laws on DAS are very sensible and I agree with majority of their DAS laws) prevents such from happening as:

A: the patient needs to ask for DAS 2x with at least 15days difference between both to be in consideration for DAS so in order for the doctor to forge the Docs he would have his work cut out as he would need to do a lot of forging and forge the time the patient was flown in which means he would need the cooperation of the emergency services that brought the patient, forge the receptionist register, forge a lot of other records which also includes things like CCTVs meaning he'll need cooperation of the whole security team to wipe out the CCTV, wipe the memory(ies) of whoever witnessed the accident.

B. The patient must provide a written request to his or her physician, signed in the presence of two witnesses. if he successfully surmounts A then he would need at least 2 accomplices to surmount this one

C. An external physician is required to come in and assess the situation too to confirm the diagnosis, prognosis and make sure the patient is aware of what he's requesting. "doctor organ transplant" needs to bribe the external physician or something to get past this hurdle


Let's be sincere with ourselves here, if a doctor is able to cross all these hurdles on his way to killing a patient then DAS's LEGALISATION WASN'T THE PROBLEM! the problem was far bigger than DAS and dare I say DAS actually protects the interest of the patient in this situation and makes "doctor organ transplant"'s job a lot more difficult than it would've if it weren't there.....



The second one also faces the same sets of problems and why would a care giver be aware he's awarding him his estate? this shows a leak either from the lawyer or the patient himself and what happened would've happened regardless of DAS being legalised or not



At the end of the day if these kind of stories are what they have against DAS then they're really not against DAS but are asking for stricter rules to avoid abuse which I think Oregon laws work well to prevent even though I think its still not perfect but its pretty close to perfection

Butterflyleo:


I simply gave an analogy on how loopholes exist and rather than thinking deep you just spew ridiculous rebuttals.

You keep talking about Oregon but you forget that Netherlands began this a while ago and it was actually a process to something much bigger.

The Netherlands has moved from assisted suicide to euthanasia, from euthanasia for the terminally ill to euthanasia for the chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for psychological distress and from voluntary euthanasia to involuntary euthanasia called “termination of the patient without explicit request”.”

In fact, the Dutch now kill patients and babies born with deformities.

That is what it has become now. You think its all straight down the line right? I sorry for you.

How about the poor? Those without financial resources are most at risk from this dangerous legislation. Suicide becomes the cheap alternative for the poor who cannot afford costly treatment and medication. By passing assisted suicide laws,that state takes an interest in promoting the suicide of its citizens in order to save money. In fact, many insurance companies also favor assisted suicide because is saves them a lot of money.

This is all about business but you wouldn't see the bigger picture would you? Using human lives for money making schemes.

What about those who are terminally Ill? Those coping with terminal illness are pressured to take the easy way out. “Not being a burden” becomes a powerful temptation to end one’s life. Instead of cherishing the sunset of life, a terminally ill person’s last moments are deliberately cut short. Laws of this type also allow relatives and family members to kill in order to access inheritances and take advantage of the situation.

Under the false guise of "compassion" as it were, all sorts of euphemisms are being used to force this dangerous legislation into medical practice. phrases such as “aid in dying,” “end-of-life options,” and “death with dignity.” But there is no getting around the truth. These laws allow doctors to administer drugs designed to facilitate suicide. Even more insidious, the lethal drugs are falsely labeled as “medication” while designed to do the exact opposite of any true medicine.

Whether you like it or not, assisted suicide turns doctors to killers and it is fundamentally incompatible with the physician’s role as healer, would be difficult or impossible to control, and would pose serious societal risks.” Even now the entire 3.4 million nurses in america represented by The American Nurses Association, has clearly stated that "the nurse should not participate in assisted suicide and that Such an act is in violation of the Code for Nurses and the ethical traditions of the profession."

The whole charade is not for the benefit of the patient but for the benefit of the state in terms of cost cutting, resource saving and for the benefit of insurance companies.

The Hippocratic Oath proclaims: “I will keep the sick from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect.”

Now how is that turning out? DAS is simply giving them a window to freely break that oath and get away with it.

If you still wish to argue in support and claim this is a humane gesture as an atheist then go ahead. That does not change the fact that it is ethically wrong, morally bankrupt and a societal Ill for the weak, the poor, the disabled and the elderly. Its all a money saving and making scheme.

***walks out****

dalaman:


This man and plagiarism. You just can't and won't stop abi?

https://www.tfpstudentaction.org/blog/10-reasons-to-ban-assisted-suicide

dalaman:

This man and plagiarism. You just can't and won't stop abi?
https://www.tfpstudentaction.org/blog/10-reasons-to-ban-assisted-suicide

dalaman:

This man and plagiarism. You just can't and won't stop abi?
https://www.tfpstudentaction.org/blog/10-reasons-to-ban-assisted-suicide

Butterflyleo:


Call it what you want. I knew you would do what you love doing. Does that defeat the import of the message?

Does that change the fact that it is ethically and morally wrong and a huge societal Ill which cannot be controlled?

Keep on playing God with the lives of people in the name of "hey he plagiarized" while looking away from more serious issues which may affect your own family or relative tomorrow. By then I am sure you just might wish you led the placard carrying opposition.

I am done. You can go ahead and argue with your ancestors but know this. Isn't it rather funny that a theist is the one arguing for life to be either prolonged or allowed to run its course for the terminally Ill while you an atheist does not even care about their lives and would just wave it away like a fart.

You need to check yourself and see how low you have become and how deep you have sunken in a very dark place.

dalaman:


Ogbeni shut up. You are a thief. Plagiarism is stealing. You are lifting someone else's intellectual property and passing it off as yours. You are notorious for that and it is wrong.

I am really not down with DAS per say. Only two conditions have made me support it because things are not always black or white. In the case of my late friend where his parents and my own mum prayed for him to die and the other case that made front page on nairaland of the guy with a tumor on his head where you could see his brain some years ago, the report had it that the guy was crying for the doctors to take his life because he was in endless pain and suffering from severe headaches always. I will support DAS in such cases because their situations were helpless and there was no cure that will save them. Ending their lives was the humane thing to do.

There are a lot of unethical issues associated with every thing in life so I really do not see why you are beating the drums on DAS as if it's the end of the world. Life should ALWAYS be preserved is a belief I hold deeply but in cases where the situation is hopeless and the person will suffer needlessly, putting an end to the persons life is sometimes the most humane thing to do. Things are not always black or white.

Arondizuogu:
I seriously think that if someone wants to use DAS, he or she should be given that option.. some folks are living in chronic pain and discomfort.. I think it's a clean option for people who are capable of making such decisions...