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Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 11:39am On Apr 05, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Lol!! I'm not even gonna bother to hold you to that. I'm not in the mood for disappointments. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 11:39am On Apr 05, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Lol!! I'm not even gonna bother to hold you to that. I'm not in the mood for disappointments. |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 11:41am On Apr 05, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Ezra, Hebrew ʿezraʾ, (flourished 4th century bc, Babylon and Jerusalem), religious leader of the Jews who returned from exile in Babylon, reformer who reconstituted the Jewish community on the basis of the Torah (Law, or the regulations of the first five books of the Old Testament). His work helped make Judaism a religion in which law was central, enabling the Jews to survive as a community when they were dispersed all over the world. Since his efforts did much to give Jewish religion the form that was to characterize it for centuries after, Ezra has with some justice been called the father of Judaism; i.e., the specific form the Jewish religion took after the Babylonian Exile. So important was he in the eyes of his people that later tradition regarded him as no less than a second Moses.---https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ezra-Hebrew-religious-leader I didn't say that he wrote the Torah, the most I've said is that he redacted the final version of the Torah that we have today. The Catholic church did not claim to write the entire bible. O ma se o! So soon after asking for objectivity saying you don't want to win the argument and in the very next line you write total falsehoods that no one said. 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 11:42am On Apr 05, 2018 |
PastorAIO:Wikipedia and others sources says the Book of Wars was a record of the wars fought by the Jews in Canaan, just as i said. What does these tell us? The man who wrote the First Five books also wrote that book. Moses wrote those books if he didn't you won't be the one to say otherwise, the Jews will be. PastorAIO:A discussion in my opinion should be to learn not to win or be the one to have the last word. That said, pls can we try be objective in our thoughts here? First seta of questions i have been trying to put forward are; Who was Ezra? When did he live? What do you mean he wrote the Torah? Is it the same with the case of Catholicism putting together the Bible books and claiming they wrote it? Can a man [Ezra] who had died before the last book of the Old Testament (Malachi)was written said to havs been the one who wrote it? This is really not sensible if you ask me. The Bible (Torah) is a collection of books (Prophesies mostly) written by different prophets, accounts of the Kings, Shepherds, and laymen. All these men lived in different times. If you insist because Ezra is a 'Who' hence; qualifies as the writer of the Old Testament, then Ezra must be immortal. That will also mean, all the prophets never lived or lived only in Ezra's mind. PastorAIO:Well, Sources says otherwise as he was said to be a scribe and only a priest. His father was the last priest who served in the Temple in Jerusalem before the exile to Babylon. Being a scribe also, he recorded events which took place around him during the last phase of their exile in Babylon and their early return to Jerusalem. God never revealed the future to him as He did with the prophets. If that happened pls post it. PastorAIO:The bolded is where the issue lies. Your feelings. Our feelings ahould not count here. What does the records say? Ezra was a Jew who knew the import of what it meant to add or take away from the Law,hence he wouldn't do what you feel it he did. He was a priests but being in exile, his prietly duties were suspended what he did was act as scribe who recorded events. He was in Babylon like Ezekiel, Hagai, Zacharia, and others. They were prophets who YHWH spoke to, he never could influence what Ezekiel saw and wrote by his scribe. PastorAIO:If Moses didn't write the Torah, i hope you know that you and i will not come close to know it? The Jews will be in that position to know. They wont hold Moses with the kind of reverence they do. No Nation in the Hisyory of men keeps records by mouth to mouth preservation like the Jews. Their God told them to tell their children and have their Children tell their own Children about their origin, till His promises for them are fulfilled. And if we are rational we will see that the records of the wars were put separately, and made reference to by the same person who separated them. [quote author=PastorAIO post=66438589 Furthermore the reference to the Book of Wars indicates that Moses could not have written the Torah since as you say it was about the wars of canaanite conques[/quote] Even if the writrer decided to record the events of the Wars separately? If you are a careful observer you'd see that, When YHWH informed Moses about his death, he told Moses to take Joshua along to the mountain where he died and after Moses, Joshua took over from where Moses left off. I will end this on this note: If Moses didn't write the 5 Books of the Torah, the Jews will be in a better position to know and won't place Moses where they place him. Shalom. |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 11:46am On Apr 05, 2018 |
PastorAIO:If that is the case, it validates the claims that Ezra wrote it? |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 11:56am On Apr 05, 2018 |
Emmanystone: I think that you have the Torah confused with the Tanakh. Please google them quick quick and come back so that we can continue the conversation. |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 12:56pm On Apr 05, 2018 |
Emmanystone: My feelings do count here. What you should ask is why I feel the way I feel? Thanks for asking what the records say. I'll take it from there. It is that the bible is full of contradictions and opposing viewpoints. For me, one of the most glaring internal contradictions in the bible is the attitude of the Hebrews to foreigners. On the one hand they embrace foreigners and extend hospitality to them and then shockingly every now and again you'll find a horrendously racist passage that does not tally with the open embrace of foreigners. Consider the following passages: Deut 24:19 When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. Leviticus 19:10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the LORD your God. Deut 26 : 12 (On tithing) When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. Exodus 12 37And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds. Exodus 12 48If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. 49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” Compare this attitude to that of Ezra's. 1After these things had been done, the officials approached me and said, “The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands with their abominations, from the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2For they have taken some of their daughters to be wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has mixed itself with the peoples of the lands. And in this faithlessness the hand of the officials and chief men has been foremost.” 3As soon as I heard this, I tore my garment and my cloak and pulled hair from my head and beard and sat appalled.Ezra 9 10And Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have broken faith and married foreign women, and so increased the guilt of Israel. 11Now then make confession to the Lord, the God of your fathers and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples of the land and from the foreign wives.” 12Then all the assembly answered with a loud voice, “It is so; we must do as you have said. 13But the people are many, and it is a time of heavy rain; we cannot stand in the open. Nor is this a task for one day or for two, for we have greatly transgressed in this matter.-Ezra 10 Ezra was a virulent racist and those passages in the book of Ezra are some of the nastiest passages I've ever read in any religious text. This man broke up families on such a grand scale. And he made the jews swear to not give their neighbours any peace or prosperity. When you look back at the torah and you see contradictory verse where in one passage the jews are open to foreigners yet in another passage they are quite racist I am inclined to accept that Ezra injected the racist passages to further his agenda. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 12:57pm On Apr 05, 2018 |
Emmanystone: You need to ask that question of the person who told you that Ezra wrote it. It is my take that Ezra finalized it in the form that we know today. |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Nobody: 6:48am On Apr 06, 2018 |
sonmvayina: If I understand you, you are saying that the story is symbolic/allegorical, not real life story? If that is what you mean, why do you view it as so? 2 Likes |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Nobody: 6:55am On Apr 06, 2018 |
PastorAIO: How did you come to the conclusion that it is fiction, and who do you think wrote the book? 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 7:28am On Apr 06, 2018 |
JMAN05: Show me where I came to the conclusion it was fiction. |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by sonmvayina(m): 2:56pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
I JMAN05: Yes that is what I mean...because the people who it was written for and the people that wrote it says it is a spiritual journey not a literal one.. The rabbi at Golders green synagogue in London told me, when I was there...we lived on the same street.. 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 3:44pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
Emmanystone: 2 Likes |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by sonmvayina(m): 4:06pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
[quote author=PastorAIO post=66484268][/quote] God is the totality of the consciousness of the universe.... The stories are allegorical... |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 8:17pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
sonmvayina:You mean a Jewish Rabbi told you that the 40 years Journey of the Israelites was an allegorical journey? In other words, the Israelites were never in Egypt? Wow. A Jew told a gentile that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses were made up to explain a spiritual Journey. Did you also ask him if the War with the Amalekites and the Conquest of Canaan was also Allegorical? Now, i'm getting interested in this. Tell me more, from when did the Nation of Israel became a real physical Nation and who were the first fathers, since the Rabbi said, the ones written in the Bible were allegorical? 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 8:24pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
[quote author=PastorAIO post=66484268][/quote] For you to quote this and mention me means you believe what he said right? So you believe a Jewish Rabbi will tell a Gentile that the Nation of Israel was never captives in Egypt at point in time, and there was never a Red Sea Crossing? The 40yrs wandering in the Wilderness never happened. You believe a Moses never lived as a human? Meaning there was no Wars which led to the Conquest of Canaan? Are you this desperate? 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 8:29pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
sonmvayina:Biko Machi onu gi. Do you even know what allegory means? 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Nobody: 11:46pm On Apr 06, 2018 |
sonmvayina: "The people that wrote it". Where did these people that wrote it say it wasn't real? And which people wrote it? 2 Likes |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 12:26am On Apr 07, 2018 |
Emmanystone: Basic reasoning ability would tell you that the point o was making was that your manner of reasoning ( that Jews would know best, better than even yourself) does not favour your stance. Just the simple fact that Jewish rabbis reject your jesus as the messiah should have been enough to shut your mouth on the line of thinking. But you lacked the capacity to realise that you were arguing against yourself. 2 Likes |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 12:35am On Apr 07, 2018 |
Emmanystone: I have no reason to disbelief the man. Plus, his rabbi friend is not the only rabbi that will affirm that. Not only will rabbis say it never happened but historians too will agree with them. Especially the top Jewish historians. The Egyptians would were meticulous record keepers never made a single mention of the event either. The Jews were Canaanites who overthrew their ruling class and created an anarchist society. Out of this a new religion slowly emerged out of the old religions of the canaanites. But it was a long and protracted process. |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by MuttleyLaff: 7:21am On Apr 07, 2018 |
Emmanystone:Not only desperate but more PastorAIO:Swot up on the Egyptian sage named Ipuwer PastorAIO:This post is so fubar I expect this coming from a dissembler and so not surprised at the bunglings, misinformation or having the Jews mixed up with the Hyksos |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by sonmvayina(m): 7:49am On Apr 07, 2018 |
JMAN05: The jews wrote it for their religion, Judaism... |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 10:34am On Apr 07, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff: Only me, and I have the questionable honour of being trolled by you. Even to the point that you can claim that I was viewing a thread when I didn't even contribute to the thread. So you are even aware of where I browse. What a pitiable soul. Well you have one thing right about me. I think to highly of myself to stoop to trading un-progressive insults with you. MuttleyLaff: 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 11:04am On Apr 07, 2018 |
William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years and authored almost as many books on the subject. In the following interview, Dever describes some of the most significant archeological finds related to the Hebrew Bible, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 11:07am On Apr 07, 2018 |
and lest any one gets swayed by any yeye Ipuwer arguments they should consider read this: -Wikipedia 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 12:02pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
PastorAIO:Oh, this pastor has no idea what he is talking about. If only you knew that the Jews' temporal rejection of their Messiah is not of their making. You read and quote from the Scriptures but only when you dishonestly know that taking the verse out of context will project your twisted intent. Now, here is what the Scriptures says about the Jews rejecting their messiah for now; I said 'for now', because, when this dispensation closes, they'll come to the realization of who Christ truly is and shall embrace Him. GNT 11:7-12 What then? The people of Israel did not find what they were looking for. It was only the small group that God chose who found it; the rest grew deaf to God's call. As the scripture says, “God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear.” And David says, “May they be caught and trapped at their feasts; may they fall, may they be punished! May their eyes be blinded so that they cannot see; and make them bend under their troubles at all times.” I ask, then: When the Jews stumbled, did they fall to their ruin? By no means! Because they sinned, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous of them. [The sin of the Jews brought rich blessings to the world, and their spiritual poverty brought rich blessings to the Gentiles] Then, how much greater the blessings will be when the complete number of Jews is included! The Jews rejection of their Messiah opened a door for us Gentiles to accept Jesus. This is the Church Age, when this despensation closes with the rapture, all the Jews shall turn to their Messiah. Romans 11:13-22 [b]I am speaking now to you Gentiles: As long as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I will take pride in my work. Perhaps I can make the people of my own race jealous, and so be able to save some of them. For when they were rejected, all other people were changed from God's enemies into his friends. What will it be, then, when they are accepted? It will be life for the dead! If the first piece of bread is given to God, then the whole loaf is his also; and if the roots of a tree are offered to God, the branches are his also. Some of the branches of the cultivated olive tree have been broken off, and a branch of a wild olive tree has been joined to it. You Gentiles are like that wild olive tree, and now you share the strong spiritual life of the Jews. So then, you must not despise those who were broken off like branches. How can you be proud? You are just a branch; you don't support the roots—the roots support you. But you will say, “Yes, but the branches were broken off to make room for me.” That is true. They were broken off because they did not believe, while you remain in place because you do believe. But do not be proud of it; instead, be afraid. God did not spare the Jews, who are like natural branches; do you think he will spare you? Here we see how kind and how severe God is. He is severe toward those who have fallen, but kind to you—if you continue in his kindness. But if you do not, you too will be broken off.[/b] Can you see why the Jews don't believe in Jesus yet? I'm waiting for your twisted mind to come up with another twisted and warped views. 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 12:07pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
PastorAIO: @the bolded, at what point in history did this happen? I mean the Jews overthrowing the Canaanite ruling class? 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 12:13pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
Still maintaining a limited intellectual capacity. Inside all this one that you've spewed now, will you still say that Jews ought to know more than you or not? Emmanystone: Emmanystone: |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by PastorAIO: 12:15pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
Emmanystone: It is the theory that I find most reasonable. It happened over the course of centuries. roughly from about 1300bce to 800 bce. 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 1:28pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
PastorAIO:At the same time the Jews conquered Canaan or another time? Who were their ancestors and from when did they become a Nation? And, who were these Jews to be so powerful to overthrow the Canaanites, the Amalekites, the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Gitites, the Amorites. the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, tbe Perrizites, the Raphims, Girgashites, and the almighty Jericho? 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by Emmanystone: 1:29pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
PastorAIO:This is all you can say? Are you sure you read what i posted? Lol. 1 Like |
Re: DISCUSSION: YHWH (jewish) And Enki (epic Of Gilgamesh) Who Is Older? by sonmvayina(m): 9:58pm On Apr 07, 2018 |
Emmanystone: No, I don't, enlighten me please...... 1 Like |
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