you assume that an intelligent designer created the universe, I assume that an unintelligent force created the universe by chance.

each assumption is as good as the other.

Gggg102:
you assume that an intelligent designer created the universe, I assume that an unintelligent force created the universe by chance.

each assumption is as good as the other.

Like I presented in the OP, the law of cause and effect, causality and gravity say you are wrong.

Unintelligence which means inanimacy cannot birth intelligence and order and harmony and gains from a means.

Its like saying rocks gave us chickens or a toothpick gave me a horse.

Butterflyleo:



I never circled. I corrected your error because you were the one talking about throwing balls in an unplanned and disorderly manner which despicted chaos and I told you that chaos was not there before the big bang but came after and I showed you proof of that so why do you now twist it ?

Chaos cannot bring the following

1) order
2) a means to an end
3) consistency
4) Gains from the means
5) harmony

All these we see in our universe. Chaos and unintelligence cannot get all five right.

you are assuming that chaos was not there before the big bang.

science doesn't go to before the big bang because our laws of physics starts after the big bang.
science does not investigate before the big bang.

anything could have happened before the big bang. science does not know.


you cannot claim that there was no chaos before the big bang because you don't know what happened before the big bang. science can investigate to before the big bang.

the laws that governs our universe came into place after the big bang. they don't work before it


you cannot show proof of what happened before the big bang because science cannot investigate before the big bang





chaos can bring about anything as long as the probability of that thing is not zero. since the universe exists, the probability of its existence is not zero. therefore there is a probability of the universe coming into existence through chaos. just like there is a probability of me throwing a ball into the cup blindfolded by throwing randomly.

chaos can because the probability of those things happening is not zero.
chaos can bring about it eventually.

Butterflyleo:


Like I presented in the OP, the law of cause and effect, causality and gravity say you are wrong.

Unintelligence which means inanimacy cannot birth intelligence and order and harmony and gains from a means.

Its like saying rocks gave us chickens or a toothpick gave me a horse.

or molecules and atoms giving cells, and organisms.

or a programmed machine creating artificial intelligence androids.

Gggg102:




or molecules and atoms giving cells, and organisms.

or a programmed machine creating artificial intelligence androids.

Who or what programmed this artificial intelligence?

Molecules and atoms began to exist at a point. They did not originate themselves

Gggg102:




you are assuming that chaos was not there before the big bang.

science doesn't go to before the big bang because our laws of physics starts after the big bang.
science does not investigate before the big bang.

anything could have happened before the big bang. science does not know.


you cannot claim that there was no chaos before the big bang because you don't know what happened before the big bang. science can investigate to before the big bang.

the laws that governs our universe came into place after the big bang. they don't work before it


you cannot show proof of what happened before the big bang because science cannot investigate before the big bang





chaos can bring about anything as long as the probability of that thing is not zero. since the universe exists, the probability of its existence is not zero. therefore there is a probability of the universe coming into existence through chaos. just like there is a probability of me throwing a ball into the cup blindfolded by throwing randomly.

chaos can because the probability of those things happening is not zero.
chaos can bring about it eventually.

The laws that govern our universe speak of order and this implies that order gave birth to order because chaos cannot give order.

Light can only give light. It cannot give darkness. What you have is what you give and that is why the law of cause and effect will keep refuting you.

Butterflyleo:


Like I presented in the OP, the law of cause and effect, causality and gravity say you are wrong.

Unintelligence which means inanimacy cannot birth intelligence and order and harmony and gains from a means.

Its like saying rocks gave us chickens or a toothpick gave me a horse.

and you are thinking the unitelligence had some gains in mind.


the unintelligence had no purpose. it just did what it did. it was not trying to create anything particular. it was just running how it existed to run. any 'gains' that happens is a result of chance. the unitelligence had no gain in mind because it lacked a mind.

Butterflyleo:


The laws that govern our universe speak of order and this implies that order gave birth to order because chaos cannot give order.

Light can only give light. It cannot give darkness. What you have is what you give and that is why the law of cause and effect will keep refuting you.

Quantum physics called. It wants to disagree with your notions of chaos and order.

Gggg102:



and you are thinking the unitelligence had some gains in mind.


the unintelligence had no purpose. it just did what it did. it was not trying to create anything particular. it was just running how it existed to run. any 'gains' that happens is a result of chance. the unitelligence had no gain in mind because it lacked a mind.

And an action that lacked a mind would now cause a mind to exist?

A mindless action would now produce the kind of fine tuning we have in our universe to the extent of the sun as far away as it is being specifically beneficial to us as humans and plants here despite how small we are and also despite the earth not originating from the sun?

If the earth had originated from the sun then I would understand. But we have no link yet the earths humanity is "alive" as it were because of the sun and the gravitational pull of the moon helps organise our seasons and the temperature of our planet.

Why would these inanimate planets even care and why are they deliberately linked to our planet since it was all caused by a mindless action?

Butterflyleo:


Who or what programmed this artificial intelligence?

Molecules and atoms began to exist at a point. They did not originate themselves

a machine could operate on a code that programmes artificial intelligence. this machine is still unintelligent but it causes artificial intelligence based on its code. while you can claim this machine was created by an intelligence, the machine would still be an unintelligent agent that creates intelligence.

the 'magnet' is like this machine except it was uncaused and exists for eternity.

when chromosomes in sex gametes mix and match, they do so randomly. the result of this mix and match is a specific offspring. the chromosomes are unintelligent. it did not have a specific result in mind, but it got a result. same with our universe.






intelligence began to exist at a point it did not exist on its own


everything in our universe began from unitelligence. it was unintelligent particles that gave rise to atoms, which gave rise to molecules that gave rise to cells and continues till we get to whatever level of intelligence exist today. our universe shows everything began from unintelligence.

if we are to derive from science according to your op, we cannot look outside science.

what science shows is that everything began from unitelligence.

Butterflyleo:


And an action that lacked a mind would now cause a mind to exist?

A mindless action would now produce the kind of fine tuning we have in our universe to the extent of the sun as far away as it is being specifically beneficial to us as humans and plants here despite how small we are and also despite the earth not originating from the sun?

If the earth had originated from the sun then I would understand. But we have no link yet the earths humanity is "alive" as it were because of the sun and the gravitational pull of the moon helps organise our seasons and the temperature of our planet.

Why would these inanimate planets even care and why are they deliberately linked to our planet since it was all caused by a mindless action?

yes.



they never cared. whatever happened happened and the result is what we have today. it could have gone any other way but it went this way by chance. there was a probability for it to happen this way and it happened.

Butterflyleo:


The laws that govern our universe speak of order and this implies that order gave birth to order because chaos cannot give order.

Light can only give light. It cannot give darkness. What you have is what you give and that is why the law of cause and effect will keep refuting you.

according to science, our universe began with chaos(big bang and after) and this chaos led to the order we have today.

even you posted something on it;

Butterflyleo:



This is an extract from www.space.com



As you can see CHAOS DID NOT BEGIN THE BIG BANG. CHAOS BEGAN AFTER THE BIG BANG and it never stopped.

1.chaos began after the big bang.

2.since we are deriving from science, and science began after the big bang.

the starting point of science in our universe is chaos. this chaos led to the order and intelligence in our universe today.


therefore deriving from science (like your op), the Universe began with chaos which led to intelligence and order.

any other conclusion is outside science.



science does not know what happened before the big bang.

it could be an intelligence or an unitelligence, we do not know. it could be ordered or random.

both are equally valid speculations.


but as far as science and the beginning of the universe is concerned, it was from chaos and unitelligence to order and intelligence.

Gggg102:



yes.



they never cared. whatever happened happened and the result is what we have today. it could have gone any other way but it went this way by chance. there was a probability for it to happen this way and it happened.

So you are saying that there is a probability that brought the sun into existence in such a way that it perfectly assists the earth despite not having anything to do with the earth and depitr it being first on the scene before the earth and there is also a possibility that brought the moon into existence to also perfectly suite the earth in the area of assisting our seasons and temperature all at the same time acting differently from the earth and there Is Also a possibility the brought about our earth to match the assistance being rendered by the sun and the moon in order to help a very tiny earthly sized population who the sun and the moon are both unaware of yet help to survive despite being inanimate and mindless?

If this is not delusion then nothing else is.

Its either you are deliberately denying the obvious and claiming that as mindless as the moon and sun are they somehow keep our earth alive they each individually came about by chance in a manner as to be of help to each other and believing that intelligence was not behind this or you are too proud to admit the truth to yourself

Gggg102:



according to science, our universe began with chaos(big bang and after) and this chaos led to the order we have today.

even you posted something on it;




1.chaos began after the big bang.

2.since we are deriving from science, and science began after the big bang.

the starting point of science in our universe is chaos. this chaos led to the order and intelligence in our universe today.


therefore deriving from science (like your op), the Universe began with chaos which led to intelligence and order.

any other conclusion is outside science.



science does not know what happened before the big bang.

it could be an intelligence or an unitelligence, we do not know. it could be ordered or random.

both are equally valid speculations.


but as far as science and the beginning of the universe is concerned, it was from chaos and unitelligence to order and intelligence.

What you quoted was me correcting you when you claimed chaos preceded the big bang. Why are you being dishonest?

I showed you that the chaos you were referring to when you talked about a metaphorical magnet throwing balls without any direction prior to the bang was false and that chaos only began after the big bang

Gggg102:



a machine could operate on a code that programmes artificial intelligence. this machine is still unintelligent but it causes artificial intelligence based on its code. while you can claim this machine was created by an intelligence, the machine would still be an unintelligent agent that creates intelligence.

the 'magnet' is like this machine except it was uncaused and exists for eternity.

when chromosomes in sex gametes mix and match, they do so randomly. the result of this mix and match is a specific offspring. the chromosomes are unintelligent. it did not have a specific result in mind, but it got a result. same with our universe.






intelligence began to exist at a point it did not exist on its own


everything in our universe began from unitelligence. it was unintelligent particles that gave rise to atoms, which gave rise to molecules that gave rise to cells and continues till we get to whatever level of intelligence exist today. our universe shows everything began from unintelligence.

if we are to derive from science according to your op, we cannot look outside science.

what science shows is that everything began from unitelligence.

When you see order as an end then what you term as chaos at the beginning was intelligence because particles never existed at a point. Neither did atoms and neither did chromosomes or sex gametes

All these are subject to the law of cause and effect which keeps refuting your claims

Butterflyleo:


Like I presented in the OP, the law of cause and effect, causality and gravity say you are wrong.

Unintelligence which means inanimacy cannot birth intelligence and order and harmony and gains from a means.

Its like saying rocks gave us chickens or a toothpick gave me a horse.

@bolded.
Not to drag that, assume you are right, which God does the physics laws proove right?

Butterflyleo:


When you see order as an end then what you term as chaos at the beginning was intelligence because particles never existed at a point. Neither did atoms and neither did chromosomes or sex gametes

All these are subject to the law of cause and effect which keeps refuting your claims

neither did intelligence exist.


the universe was started in chaos. this chaos led to the order we know today. denying this is denying the universe.

any other claim is unscientific. and your op asks for science based derivation.

Butterflyleo:


So you are saying that there is a probability that brought the sun into existence in such a way that it perfectly assists the earth despite not having anything to do with the earth and depitr it being first on the scene before the earth and there is also a possibility that brought the moon into existence to also perfectly suite the earth in the area of assisting our seasons and temperature all at the same time acting differently from the earth and there Is Also a possibility the brought about our earth to match the assistance being rendered by the sun and the moon in order to help a very tiny earthly sized population who the sun and the moon are both unaware of yet help to survive despite being inanimate and mindless?

If this is not delusion then nothing else is.

Its either you are deliberately denying the obvious and claiming that as mindless as the moon and sun are they somehow keep our earth alive they each individually came about by chance in a manner as to be of help to each other and believing that intelligence was not behind this or you are too proud to admit the truth to yourself

yes.


remember the 'magnet' has all eternity. eternity is more than enough period for all specific probability to occur.

there would be countless more results that differ from our universe.

Butterflyleo:


What you quoted was me correcting you when you claimed chaos preceded the big bang. Why are you being dishonest?

I showed you that the chaos you were referring to when you talked about a metaphorical magnet throwing balls without any direction prior to the bang was false and that chaos only began after the big bang

nobody knows what happened before big bang. it could be chaos or order.


after the big bang there was chaos. this chaos led to order in the universe. it is as obvious as our universe.

Gggg102:



nobody knows what happened before big bang. it could be chaos or order.


after the big bang there was chaos. this chaos led to order in the universe. it is as obvious as our universe.

Did you not claim there was chaos before the big bang?

Butterflyleo:


Did you not claim there was chaos before the big bang?

there could be.

we can not know what happened before the big bang scientifically.

I keep saying this.

both chaos and order are probable events that happened before the big bang. they are equally valid speculations.

Gggg102:


yes.

Then you are clearly deluded. Would you say a light bulb in the middle of a room that lights up the house was unintellently put there?

Would you say the ability to regulate the temperature and seasons of the earth which the moon has despite not being a part of the earth and despite being inanimate was not intelligent?

Would you say the sun being as far from the earth as it is yet being a lifeline to the tiniest organism on this earth and giving life to us humans and also to plants was also unintelligent?

If mindlessness can achieve this much gain as an end and order and harmony and relevance can you tell me another mindless situation that has brought about this same outcome over the billions of years science touts is the age of the universe.

If you can then your claim becomes scientifically falsifiable but if you cannot then your claim falls flat.

Gggg102:



there could be.

we can not know what happened before the big bang scientifically.

I keep saying this.

both chaos and order are probable events that happened before the big bang. they are equally valid speculations.

If chaos was before the big bang then that would mean we had other singularities also before the big bang which also went through trial and error so show me another universe besides our own which came from another singularity.

Gggg102:


neither did intelligence exist.


the universe was started in chaos. this chaos led to the order we know today. denying this is denying the universe.

any other claim is unscientific. and your op asks for science based derivation.

The universe was not started in chaos. What you call chaos was a means to a DELIBERATE end which has shown us order, purpose, harmony etc.

Would you say there is a possibility that this singularity could also not have birthed our universe ? If so, why then did it SPECIFICALLY give us our universe with all the order in it?

Butterflyleo:


Then you ate clearly deluded. Would you say a light bulb in the middle of a room the lights up the house was unintellently put there?

Would you say the ability to regulate the temperature and seasons of the earth which the moon has despite not being a part of the earth and despite being inanimate was not intelligent?

Would you say the sun being as far from the earth as it is yet being a lifeline to the tiniest organism on this earth and giving life to us humans and also to plants was u intelligent?

If mindlessness can achieve this much gain as an end and order and harmony and relevance can you tell me another mindless situation that has brought about this same outcome over the billions of years science touts is the age of the universe.

If you can then your claim becomes scientifically falsifiable but if you cannot then your claim falls flat.

if it had all of eternity and random events keep happening. there is a probability.

eternity is endless enough for all permutations to take place and give all possible results.


billions of years is not close to eternity.

Butterflyleo:


If chaos was before the big bang then that would mean we had other singularities also before the big bang which also went through trial and error so show me another universe besides our own which came from another singularity.

first we might not be able to obverse them. they could exist parallel to us.


and the chance of result is very low. so it won't be a common thing. which would make more sense because you don't need to ask the question: what was the first cause doing before he caused existence. we know it has always been doing and ours was a fateful result.

Butterflyleo:


You are the one extremely ignorant. There is no such thing as throwing a stone ABOVE 11km/sec but there is something like throwing a stone AT THE SPEED OF 11km/sec.

You seem not only science handicapped, you are also challenged in the English language.
Driving above a speed limit is correct English. Some plane can travel above the speed of sound. Throwing a tome above 11km/s mean the stone is projected at speed faster than 11km/s.

Also it is the VOYAGER 2 That is about to escape the suns orbit and not the VIKING 2. Also its escape velocity is not 42km/sec but actually 15.4km/sec and that is because it is travelling through the heliosheath.
The true escape velocity from the suns gravity itself is 618km/sec

My writing viking 2 was an error. I was tired and about sleeping so I was prone to errors.

I had been following the voyeger missions (and the viking missions) since the mid 80's. It was Carl Sagan through his "COSMOS" series that kindled my interest in astronomy and science in general. I have 3 of his books I still treasure. I even downloaded the whole 13 episodes from YouTube, which I keep for posterity.

You just Google terms you know little about, then throw them about senselessly acting intelligent, meanwhile you have not idea of what you are talking about.

The escape velocity of an object from the earths orbit is 42.1km/s. The escape velocity of 15.4km/s is from the present position of voyeger 2. Read it over and over again so you can assimilate and understand the English sentence.

The previous ones are pioneer 10, pioneer 11, voyager 1 and new horizons. There is no viking 2

Do you see how ignorant you are?

There was a viking mission. The viking program was the sending of 2 probes to Mars to explore the planet. The COSMOS series covered it extensively.

Provide the links you Googled so I can explain terms to fail to comprehend.

Butterflyleo:


The universe was not started in chaos. What you call chaos was a means to a DELIBERATE end which has shown us order, purpose, harmony etc.

Would you say there is a possibility that this singularity could also not have birthed our universe ? If so, why then did it SPECIFICALLY give us our universe with all the order in it?

your claim is not scientific.
you are assuming this. it has no basis.


to science, it was started in chaos. that's what science observed.


you claiming deliberate cause to this chaotic beginning of the universe is a unscientific speculation or science fiction.

your op says to derive from science.
you are denying the scientific observation of the universe.


the singularity might not have birthed our universe if there was a slight change. it could have resulted to something else.

it gave us our universe by chance. it just happened.

wirinet:

You seem not only science handicapped, you are also challenged in the English language.
Driving above a speed limit is correct English. Some plane can travel above the speed of sound. Throwing a tome above 11km/s mean the stone is projected at speed faster than 11km/s.


My writing viking 2 was an error. I was tired and about sleeping so I was prone to errors.

I had been following the voyeger missions (and the viking missions) since the mid 80's. It was Carl Sagan through his "COSMOS" series that kindled my interest in astronomy and science in general. I have 3 of his books I still treasure. I even downloaded the whole 13 episodes from YouTube, which I keep for posterity.

You just Google terms you know little about, then throw them about senselessly acting intelligent, meanwhile you have not idea of what you are talking about.

The escape velocity of an object from the earths orbit is 42.1km/s. The escape velocity of 15.4km/s is from the present position of voyeger 2. Read it over and over again so you can assimilate and understand the English sentence.


There was a viking missions. The viking program was the sending of 2 probes to Mars to explore the planet. The COSMOS series covered it extensively.

Provide the links you Googled so I can explain terms to fail to comprehend.

You are the one who reads without understanding.

Also it is the VOYAGER 2 That is about to escape the suns orbit and not the VIKING 2. Also its escape velocity is not 42km/sec but actually 15.4km/sec and that is because it is travelling through the heliosheath.
The true escape velocity from the suns gravity itself is 618km/sec

Read that slowly over and over again until you understand it

Gggg102:



if it had all of eternity and random events keep happening. there is a probability.

eternity is endless enough for all permutations to take place and give all possible results.


billions of years is not close to eternity.

At the bolded so why did the randomness stop independent of each other.

Why did the moon not continue being random but has now deliberately mantained a calculated order of assisting the earth with seasons and temperature despite not being a part of it.

Also why did the sun stop being random and continue on a different path? Why is it constantly giving life to our habitable planet to all organisms here?

Randomness never deliberately stops at any point because it is mindless and does not known when order has been achieved. So why is this your chaos different?

Butterflyleo:


At the bolded so why did the randomness stop independent of each other.

Why did the moon not continue being random but has now deliberately mantained a calculated order of assisting the earth with seasons and temperature despite not being a part of it.

Also why did the sun stop being random and continue on a different path? Why is it constantly giving life to our habitable planet to all organisms here?

Randomness never deliberately stops at any point because it is mindless and does not known when order has been achieved. So why is this your chaos different?

the pre big bang randomness caused whatever happened to the singularity. after that things turned out as science shows.

you could as well ask
why did the randomness of the big bang not continue till now?

Butterflyleo:


At the bolded so why did the randomness stop independent of each other.

Why did the moon not continue being random but has now deliberately mantained a calculated order of assisting the earth with seasons and temperature despite not being a part of it.

Also why did the sun stop being random and continue on a different path? Why is it constantly giving life to our habitable planet to all organisms here?

Randomness never deliberately stops at any point because it is mindless and does not known when order has been achieved. So why is this your chaos different?

and randomness did not deliberately stop at this point. it just happened.


why don't you ask why the randomness after the big bang not continue till now?

why did the chaos that started the universe after the big bang lead to order?


it just happened.

if it had happened another way, you could be asking why it didn't happen this way. it just happened to happen this way.