science shows clearly that the beginning of the universe was chaos and unitelligence. this chaotic beginning resulted in the universe as we know it.

there was no intelligence in the beginning of the universe. you can't say you are deriving from science and yet deny science.

our universe shows order came from chaos.

Gggg102:



and randomness did not deliberately stop at this point. it just happened.


why don't you ask why the randomness after the big bang not continue till now?

why did the chaos that started the universe after the big bang lead to order?


it just happened.

if it had happened another way, you could be asking why it didn't happen this way. it just happened to happen this way.

Randomness does not just stop. It does not just happen. Original randomness continues being random and does not produce order just ad I have been saying ever since.

Why did the moon and sun stop being random at the point of producing order and purpose for the earth despite being mindless and acting Independent of the earth ?

Gggg102:




the pre big bang randomness caused whatever happened to the singularity. after that things turned out as science shows.

you could as well ask
why did the randomness of the big bang not continue till now?

Science themselves are still confused about what you are pushing as fact.

Randomness cannot produce order no matter the number of probabilities which subscribe to the age of the universe.

Gggg102:



if it had all of eternity and random events keep happening. there is a probability.

eternity is endless enough for all permutations to take place and give all possible results.


billions of years is not close to eternity.

Regarding the universe there is no eternity because the universe had a beginning so coming here to say if this probability had all eternity it would succeed is useless

Butterflyleo:


Randomness does not just stop. It does not just happen. Original randomness continues being random and does not produce order just ad I have been saying ever since.

Why did the moon and sun stop being random at the point of producing order and purpose for the earth despite being mindless and acting Independent of the earth ?

why did the universe not continue to act randomly since the beginning of the universe was chaotic?


why did planets form and cool after the big bang and started acting orderly since the big bang was chaotic?


since order could just happen after the chaos of the big bang, order can also just happen after the chaos that caused the big bang.

Butterflyleo:


Regarding the universe there is no eternity because the universe had a beginning so coming here to say if this probability had all eternity it would succeed is useless

the 'magnet' was outside the universe so it had all eternity.
it caused the universe by chance from outside the universe. it had all eternity.

Butterflyleo:


Science themselves are still confused about what you are pushing as fact.

Randomness cannot produce order no matter the number of probabilities which subscribe to the age of the universe.

then you are denying the universe.


the beginning of the universe was chaotic and unintelligent. it was random but now we have order.

Gggg102:


why did the universe not continue to act randomly since the beginning of the universe was chaotic?


why did planets form and cool after the big bang and started acting orderly since the big bang was chaotic?


since order could just happen after the chaos of the big bang, order can also just happen after the chaos that caused the big bang.

This is the point you fail to see.

Take a mindless round rubber ball and put it inside a container and start shaking it around in the container. As long as your chaotic shaking continues it will never stop bouncing around mindlessly. Only you can CAUSE it to stop by a deliberate conscious intelligent act of stopping the container from shaking about.

Mindlessness will continue being mindless. It cannot change its mindlessness, it cannot derive order, it cannot have a meaning. The only one who can give it meaning is an intelligence such as you who is in control of the shaking of the container.

Create a rhythm with the shaking and the ball will also develop a rhythm, remove your deliberate rhythm and its mindlessness resumes.

True or false?

Gggg102:


then you are denying the universe.


the beginning of the universe was chaotic and unintelligent. it was random but now we have order.

I am denying your chaos and not the universe. Since we derived order and gain and purpose then it was not chaos. What you see as chaos due to lack of understanding was actually a well structured pattern since it arrived at form, order, purpose, gain and harmony not to mention intelligence.

Gggg102:
why did the universe not continue to act randomly since the beginning of the universe was chaotic?

why did planets form and cool after the big bang and started acting orderly since the big bang was chaotic?

since order could just happen after the chaos of the big bang, order can also just happen after the chaos that caused the big bang.

Butterflyleo:
This is the point you fail to see.

Take a mindless round rubber ball and put it inside a container and start shaking it around in the container.
As long as your chaotic shaking continues it will never stop bouncing around mindlessly.
Only you can CAUSE it to stop by a deliberate conscious intelligent act of stopping the container from shaking about.

Mindlessness will continue being mindless. It cannot change its mindlessness, it cannot derive order, it cannot have a meaning.
The only one who can give it meaning is an intelligence such as you who is in control of the shaking of the container.

Create a rhythm with the shaking and the ball will also develop a rhythm, remove your deliberate rhythm and its mindlessness resumes.

True or false?

True point
... and regarding his first question, one word he failed to see is:
Volition

Butterflyleo:


This is the point you fail to see.

Take a mindless round rubber ball and put it inside a container and start shaking it around in the container. As long as your chaotic shaking continues it will never stop bouncing around mindlessly. Only you can CAUSE it to stop by a deliberate conscious intelligent act of stopping the container from shaking about.

Mindlessness will continue being mindless. It cannot change its mindlessness, it cannot derive order, it cannot have a meaning. The only one who can give it meaning is an intelligence such as you who is in control of the shaking of the container.

Create a rhythm with the shaking and the ball will also develop a rhythm, remove your deliberate rhythm and its mindlessness resumes.

True or false?

there are different ways I can decide to shake the container
I can go up and down, side ways, diagonally, circular shaking. each method of shaking will produce its particular rhythm. it is the method of shaking that I pick randomly. it could be a like a dice that I throw. if it lands on a six, I will shake the can vertically... if it lands on a four, I will shake horizontally and circular.


the way I choose the method of can shaking is random. the result of this method of can shaking is a rhythm.
if the dice landed on a six for example, I will shake the can vertically. this will give a specific rhythm. although I did not decide that I will shake the can vertically. probability made that decision. the making of the decision is the random/chaotic process, the decision itself is ordered depending on what decision it is.



the 'magnet' through chaos/probability randomly chooses a path to follow. once a specific path is chosen, things work according to the rules of the path. if the path leads to disorderliness so be it. if it leads to orderliness, so be it.

Butterflyleo:


Assumptions!

Unless you wish to also assume there were many singularities back then and if this were to be the case why do we not have other universes which emerged from these other singularities no matter how warped they may be or deformed?

And what I said was FIRST TRY and not FIRST TIME.

Another disappointing reply. How do u know there aren't other universes?

Gggg102:



there are different ways I can decide to shake the container
I can go up and down, side ways, diagonally, circular shaking. each method of shaking will produce its particular rhythm. it is the method of shaking that I pick randomly. it could be a like a dice that I throw. if it lands on a six, I will shake the can vertically... if it lands on a four, I will shake horizontally and circular.


the way I choose the method of can shaking is random. the result of this method of can shaking is a rhythm.
if the dice landed on a six for example, I will shake the can vertically. this will give a specific rhythm. although I did not decide that I will shake the can vertically. probability made that decision. the making of the decision is the random/chaotic process, the decision itself is ordered depending on what decision it is.



the 'magnet' through chaos/probability randomly chooses a path to follow. once a specific path is chosen, things work according to the rules of the path. if the path leads to disorderliness so be it. if it leads to orderliness, so be it.

There is no rhythm to randomness and chaos my friend stop saying crap

chaos
noun
complete disorder and confusion

You are just clutching at straws right now and have been for a while.

The universe is said to be 13.7billion years old so lets use that.

Take a mindless rubber ball and put In a container and shake the ball around for 13.7 billion years and then stop. Within this period would it ever be possible for this mindless rubber ball to now have intelligence and a mind to know when to stop so that when you stop shaking the container it would also have a mind to know NOT to stop and now develop a rhythm and pattern and order all by itself?

Under the laws of probability is this possible?

NPComplete:


Another disappointing reply. How do u know there aren't other universes?

Are there? If there are, show me

Butterflyleo:


The laws that govern our universe speak of order and this implies that order gave birth to order because chaos cannot give order.

Light can only give light. It cannot give darkness. What you have is what you give and that is why the law of cause and effect will keep refuting you.

***Face palm***
Jesus. Has this guy ever heard of Chaos theory before?

A certain facet of chaos can be very orderly.

NPComplete:


***Face palm***
Jesus. Has this guy ever heard of Chaos theory before?

A certain facet of chaos can be very orderly.

Maybe you can then help your friend answer this question.

There is no rhythm to randomness and chaos my friend stop saying crap

chaos
noun
complete disorder and confusion

You are just clutching at straws right now and have been for a while.

The universe is said to be 13.7billion years old so lets use that.

Take a mindless rubber ball and put In a container and shake the ball around for 13.7 billion years and then stop. Within this period would it ever be possible for this mindless rubber ball to now have intelligence and a mind to know when to stop so that when you stop shaking the container it would also have a mind to know NOT to stop and now develop a rhythm and pattern and order all by itself?

Under the laws of probability is this possible?

Butterflyleo:


I am denying your chaos and not the universe. Since we derived order and gain and purpose then it was not chaos. What you see as chaos due to lack of understanding was actually a well structured pattern since it arrived at form, order, purpose, gain and harmony not to mention intelligence.

the method that led to the universe choosing a well structured pattern to follow is the chaotic process.

the chaotic process has a result. the result of this chaotic process determines what direction the Universe would follow. the chaotic process decides what path the formation of the universe follows. it is like the throw of dice. the throw of a dice is chaotic/random but when you get a number, you know exactly what to do.


e. g if you are playing ludo. when you throw your dice, it is random. the dice can show any result. it relies on probability, but when the dice lands you know what move to make. if you see a six, you can bring a piece out of your house.

each face of the dice has a particular result to it. but you don't know which face you would get.


the throw of dice is the randomness, the result of the face you get is ordered.

Gggg102:




the method that led to the universe choosing a well structured pattern to follow is the chaotic process.

the chaotic process has a result. the result of this chaotic process determines what direction the Universe would follow. the chaotic process decides what path the formation of the universe follows. it is like the throw of dice. the throw of a dice is chaotic/random but when you get a number, you know exactly what to do.


e. g if you are playing ludo. when you throw your dice, it is random. the dice can show any result. it relies on probability, but when the dice lands you know what move to make. if you see a six, you can bring a piece out of your house.

each face of the dice has a particular result to it. but you don't know which face you would get.


the throw of dice is the randomness, the result of the face you get is ordered.

THERE IS NO PROCESS IN CHAOS.

THERE IS NO METHOD IN CHAOS

chaos
noun
complete disorder and confusion

Gggg102:




the method that led to the universe choosing a well structured pattern to follow is the chaotic process.

the chaotic process has a result. the result of this chaotic process determines what direction the Universe would follow. the chaotic process decides what path the formation of the universe follows. it is like the throw of dice. the throw of a dice is chaotic/random but when you get a number, you know exactly what to do.


e. g if you are playing ludo. when you throw your dice, it is random. the dice can show any result. it relies on probability, but when the dice lands you know what move to make. if you see a six, you can bring a piece out of your house.

each face of the dice has a particular result to it. but you don't know which face you would get.


the throw of dice is the randomness, the result of the face you get is ordered.

In this statement here you keep saying YOU KNOW THE RESULT. Does MINDLESSNESS KNOW?

Butterflyleo:


There is no rhythm to randomness and chaos my friend stop saying crap



You are just clutching at straws right now and have been for a while.

The universe is said to be 13.7billion years old so lets use that.

Take a mindless rubber ball and put In a container and shake the ball around for 13.7 billion years and then stop. Within this period would it ever be possible for this mindless rubber ball to now have intelligence and a mind to know when to stop so that when you stop shaking the container it would also have a mind to know NOT to stop and now develop a rhythm and pattern and order all by itself?

Under the laws of probability is this possible?

I've said it before. the randomness that led to the universe happened before the universe and outside the universe. this randomness led to a result that decided what path the big bang follows.


I throw a dice to decide what way I shake the can. the number that shows decide how I shake the can.

the throw of dice is completely random. but when I get a result from this throw of dice, I know the direction to shake the can.

Gggg102:



I've said it before. the randomness that led to the universe happened before the universe and outside the universe. this randomness led to a result that decided what path the big bang follows.


I throw a dice to decide what way I shake the can. the number that shows decide how I shake the can.

the throw of dice is completely random. but when I get a result from this throw of dice, I know the direction to shake the can.

Can mindlessness DECIDE?

Can mindlessness KNOW?

You who is intelligent knows but can mindless chaos know or decide anything?

Also you are shaking the can. Who shook the can for this mindless chaos?

Butterflyleo:


In this statement here you keep saying YOU KNOW THE RESULT. Does MINDLESSNESS KNOW?

it doesn't know the result but it works the result. and it doesn't know it works the result.

e. g when hydrogen comes in contact with a lighted splint, it makes a pop sound. hydrogen is mindless, it doesn't know it does it but it does it. hydrogen does it all the time. and it is not conscious.

Gggg102:




it doesn't know the result but it works the result. and it doesn't know it works the result.

e. g when hydrogen comes in contact with a lighted splint, it makes a pop sound. hydrogen is mindless, it doesn't know it does it but it does it. hydrogen does it all the time. and it is not conscious.

How can it work a result it does not know it has arrived at and then STOP.

Remember we talked about this mindlessness stopping so that there would be order, purpose, consistency, harmony etc.

Hydrogen reacts and does not decide. It does not know. It does not decide to stop its CONTINUOUS reaction like your mindless chaos did

Butterflyleo:


Can mindlessness DECIDE?

Can mindlessness KNOW?

You who is intelligent knows but can mindless chaos know or decide anything?

Also you are shaking the can. Who shook the can for this mindless chaos?

the mindlessness does not know it does what it does. the mindlessness does not decide but it happens because that is the property of that mindlessness.


e. g if you add yeast to dough, the dough rises. the dough does not know it rises, it did not decide to rise, it just rises because that is its property.


while I use know and decide because I'm conscious, the mindlessness just does it because it is its property.

also since I am conscious, I can decide to not do, but mindlessness is bound to do. the dough cannot decide to not rise. it always rise. it is what it does.

Butterflyleo:


At the bolded so why did the randomness stop independent of each other.

Why did the moon not continue being random but has now deliberately mantained a calculated order of assisting the earth with seasons and temperature despite not being a part of it.

Also why did the sun stop being random and continue on a different path? Why is it constantly giving life to our habitable planet to all organisms here?

Randomness never deliberately stops at any point because it is mindless and does not known when order has been achieved. So why is this your chaos different?

Oh lord my god. Guy why na. U have just been disappointing me so far. The moon was not always at this distance from the earth; it moved farther and it might still move even farther. The universe itself is expanding and accelerating.
Nothing is exactly the way it has been and neither has it stopped changing. The initial random chance still continues.
The earth u are talking about supports the life that lives on it. The sun does not deliberately support life on earth. It is the organisms on earth that evolved to depend on the sun and the earth's atmosphere and the moons gravitational pull. There's probably another planet whose organisms have evolved to adapt to something else entirely.

The sun itself is trying to kill every organism on this earth. It doesn't care. It is not out to support life. It is just doing its own thing and life just evolved to be supported by it. Without the protection of the earth's magnetic field and ozone layer, most things will be dead already.

The earth still exists based on chance. Just look at Mars. It should remind u that there is a thin line between a thriving planet and a "dead" one. Since the existence of the earth it has been hit by numerous asteroids and the only reason it is still here is because of chance. It has been lucky enough to to be hit by an asteroid large enough to knock it out of its orbit. There are rogue planets right now that are just floating idly through the expanse of the cosmos because they were once knocked out of orbit of their solar system for some reason.

I am almost reaching the end of this thread so I will start replying your replies to me soon.

Gggg102:




the mindlessness does not know it does what it does. the mindlessness does not decide but it happens because that is the property of that mindlessness.


e. g if you add yeast to dough, the dough rises. the dough does not know it rises, it did not decide to rise, it just rises because that is its property.


while I use know and decide because I'm conscious, the mindlessness just does it because it is its property.

also since I am conscious, I can decide to not do, but mindlessness is bound to do. the dough cannot decide to not rise. it always rise. it is what it does.

The yeast is designed to stop its rise at a point but mindless chaos does not care because it does nothing else but be mindless.

How come your mindless chaos stopped being chaotic and stopped at the point of order,harmony, purpose, etc.

How did it know it had arrived at the perfect place for it to stop its mindless chaos?

Butterflyleo:


How can it work a result it does not know it has arrived at and then STOP.

Remember we talked about this mindlessness stopping so that there would be order, purpose, consistency, harmony etc.

Hydrogen reacts and does not decide. It does not know. It does not decide to stop its CONTINUOUS reaction like your mindless chaos did

the same way chemical reactions reach endpoint.

the chaos does not decide. it arrives at an endpoint.

Gggg102:



the same way chemical reactions reach endpoint.

the chaos does not decide. it arrives at an endpoint.

There is no end point to chaos because it is mindless. It keeps being chaotic.

If you say there is an end point to this your mindless chaos, how come THEY all stopped and arrived at their end points? What are the odds that every single one had an end point which was perfectly suited for life on earth to thrive?

Butterflyleo:


The yeast is designed to stop its rise at a point but mindless chaos does not care because it does nothing else but be mindless.

How come your mindless chaos stopped being chaotic and stopped at the point of order,harmony, purpose, etc.

How did it know it had arrived at the perfect place for it to stop its mindless chaos?

how was the yeast designed? you are speculating. the yeast is mindless. but it stops where it does because that is the property it has. same with the chaos.



how does your dice know that it has arrived at a perfect point for it to stop its random rotation?

Butterflyleo:


Are there? If there are, show me

Lol. In your fit of hubris you are making a blanket statement about the impossibility of other universes "however deformed" as u so eloquently put it owing to your inability to observe them. Yet u failed to realise that this is the same argument the atheists make about the existence of your god.

Show us your god.

Butterflyleo:


There is no end point to chaos because it is mindless. It keeps being chaotic.

If you say there is an end point to this your mindless chaos, how come THEY all stopped and arrived at their end points? What are the odds that every single one had an end point which was perfectly suited for life on earth to thrive?

the chaos had an endpoint that determines the path the singularity will follow.

your dice throw has an endpoint that determines the number of moves you make.


the chaos/ dice throw is random but gives a specific result.

the specific result determines what happens to the singularity(universe)/how many moves you make.

Gggg102:



how was the yeast designed? you are speculating. the yeast is mindless. but it stops where it does because that is the property it has. same with the chaos.



how does your dice know that it has arrived at a perfect point for it to stop its random rotation?

The yeast already had purpose before it was used. Your chaos had no purpose.

Dice does not know when it arrives at anything. You the thrower knows and decides for the dice based on what suites you and not the dice.

There is no perfect point for a dice. It stops when its spin ends because there is a limit of energy applied to it so it can also have a limit of spin. Our universe is still expanding which means that chaos should still be happening. After all chaos was also there at the beginning of the expansion.

So why did it stop at the point if order despite being mindless. Should mindlessness know when to stop?