This is a thread concerning the existence or non-existence of god.

a debate between myself and Butterflyleo

Other contributors are not welcome. You can observe.

Thanks.

Butterflyleo, I would like you to state your stance on the topic first.

I am of the opinion that the religious god does not exist in any form.

Capital YES

DeLioncourt:
This is a thread concerning the existence or non-existence of god.

a debate primarily between myself and Butterflyleo

Other contributors are welcome but please state your stance on the topic and stay on topic.

Thanks.

Butterflyleo, I would like you to state your stance on the topic first.

I am of the opinion that the religious god does not in any form.

I did not ask for other contributors. I said between you and i. Kindly edit your OP

Also you originated the topic so you need to be the one to lay the foundation for sake of direction.

There can only be a FOR and an AGAINST and you are clearly against

Butterflyleo:


I did not ask for other contributors. I said between you and i. Kindly edit your OP

Also you originated the topic so you need to be the one to lay the foundation for sake of direction.

There can only be a FOR and an AGAINST and you are clearly against

Whether we like it or not, people will involve themselves. That's why I thought it better to at least lay guidelines for involvement. We can't prevent others from commenting.

I have already laid the foundation: I am of the opinion that the religious god does not exist in any form.
I just want you to state your stance.

DeLioncourt:


Whether we like it or not, people will involve themselves. That's why I thought it better to at least lay guidelines for involvement. We can't prevent others from commenting.

I have already laid the foundation: I am of the opinion that the religious god does not exist in any form.
I just want you to state your stance.

You are the OP. Kindly edit your OP. This discussion is strictly between you and I. Those are the rules. Otherwise we will head nowhere.

I already told you my stance. There can only be a FOR and an AGAINST and you are clearly Against.

DeLioncourt:


Whether we like it or not, people will involve themselves. That's why I thought it better to at least lay guidelines for involvement. We can't prevent others from commenting.

I have already laid the foundation: I am of the opinion that the religious god does not exist in any form.
I just want you to state your stance.

Which one is religious God again?

what is god?

Paradigm777:

Which one is religious God again?

Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu etc especially All religious gods that want us to know them and they want to have some form of relationship with us

skubido:
Capital YES

Educate on how you came to this conclusion sir

hopefulLandlord:


Educate us on how you came to this conclusion sir

visit a prophet, if you don't have any I can introduce you to one... You will know someone is watching every second.

Please the OP has been edited. No other contributor is welcome.

marttol:
visit a prophet, if you don't have any I can introduce you to one... You will know someone is watching every second.

Let's do a little practical. Give me the prophet's number, I'll mimic a lady's voice when calling him and I'll guarantee you the prophet would conclude he's talking to a lady, deal?

hopefulLandlord:


Let's do a little practical. Give me the prophet's number, I'll mimic a lady's voice when calling him and I'll guarantee you the prophet would conclude he's talking to a lady, deal?

mtcheew go see him one on one...

marttol:
mtcheew go see him one on one...

So his power can only work in short distance? I'm not in Nigeria presently

hopefulLandlord:


So his power can only work in short distance? I'm not in Nigeria presently

k...can't give you his number

marttol:
k...can't give you his number

Why? you don't have it? or you're just refusing to give it? if its the former then I wonder how much you really know this man. If I know someone who oozes proof of god I'll definitely have his number as I would like to call him to prophesy into my life from time to time especially when in tough times, If it's the latter then you're making your claims of this prophet untestable

hopefulLandlord:

Why? you don't have it? or you're just refusing to give it? if its the former then I wonder how much you really know this man. If I know someone who oozes proof of god I'll definitely have his number as I would like to call him to prophesy into my life from time to time especially when in tough times, If it's the latter then you're making your claims of this prophet untestable

it will be an insult to him... You are trying to disguise as a lady, just trying to play him...i only give his number to people who need spiritual help... Shalom

DeLioncourt:
Point One.

god has been said to omniscient and omnipotent.

However, these two characteristics are not mutually compatible.

Reason.
Omnipotent - (of a deity) having unlimited power. This means god should be able to do anything and everything
Omniscient - knowing everything.

Now, if god knows everything, he must already know that he will intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence..this, howver means that he cannot change his mind about his intervention, hence making him not omnipotent.

a simple poem captures it thus:
can omnipotent god,
who knows the future,
find the omnipotence to change his future mind?

The "omni" Yahweh is something that got added on in Christianity, it was not part of Judaism.

Look throughout the Old Testament- Adam and Eve hid from Yahweh, Yahweh did not know if Lot would find good people in Sodom or not, Yahweh did not know if Job would keep the faith after being tortured, Yahweh flooded the world, and then regretted his decision.

Yahweh was a being identical to Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc. A powerful supernatural man, but very much still a man, with the flaws of a man.

And to that ,we get the standard Christian response- "Yahweh works in mysterious ways", which is another way of saying "The Christian god concept makes no sense even to me".

author=DeLioncourt post=66850187]Point One.

god has been said to omniscient and omnipotent.

However, these two characteristics are not mutually compatible.

Reason.
Omnipotent - (of a deity) having unlimited power. This means god should be able to do anything and everything
Omniscient - knowing everything.

Now, if god knows everything, he must already know that he will intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence..this, howver means that he cannot change his mind about his intervention, hence making him not omnipotent.

a simple poem captures it thus:
can omnipotent god,
who knows the future,
find the omnipotence to change his future mind?

To clear the air on your first foundation regarding Omniscience and omnipotence. Both are actually compatible and based on your definition you said this means having unlimited power. This means god should be able to do anything and everything

Everything also includes the ability to do nothing about it if this God chooses especially since he already knows the end from the beginning. Or better yet the creation of this God could just be acting out an already given script unknown to them and are simply being guided by thought, idea (from the outside) which then translates to action be it good or bad.

If God simply chose to change the course of his creation it could have been as a lesson. E.g he deliberately used the first blueprint to prove a point about our uselessness and weakness without his being in the full picture and then brought in the second blueprint as a comparison so we can now see and better understand why the first blueprint was deliberately made inadequate. So we then get to choose on our own volition.

Also your OP says all religious gods do not exist and that can be easily refuted thus.

1)Mother Theresa though dead is currently being Worshipped as a Hindu goddess by some inhabitants of Kolkata.

2) Guan Yu also dead as far back as 618 CE has been deified as early as the Sui Dynasty and is still popularly worshipped today among the Chinese people as an indigenous Chinese deity, He is seen as a bodhisattva in Buddhism and a guardian deity in Taoism.

3) George Washington himself is worshipped as a kami which means god in Hawaiian Shinto shrines. In the United States Capitol dome, he is also depicted ascending into Heaven and becoming a god, in the famous painting called The Apotheosis of Washington.

4) L.L Zamenhof is Considered a god by members of the Oomoto religion.

And there are many more. Note you used the qualifier religious god and not God

marttol:
it will be an insult to him... You are trying to disguise as a lady, just trying to play him...i only give his number to people who need spiritual help... Shalom

You got this all backwards sir. I'm a skeptic and I never asked you for any spiritual help. This thread is about the existence of god and you claimed god exists because there's this prophet somewhere. Now that we want to put your claim to the test you get reticent because we want to "Play" him? so you're saying your proof of god can actually be "played" and "insulted"? doesn't that say a lot about your proof of god?

OP sanitize your thread this is STRICTLY between you and me.

hopefulLandlord:


You got this all backwards sir. I'm a skeptic and I never asked you for any spiritual help. This thread is about the existence of god and you claimed god exists because there's this prophet somewhere. Now that we want to put your claim to the test you get reticent because we want to "Play" him? so you're saying your proof of god can actually be "played" and "insulted"? doesn't that say a lot about your proof of god?

These guys are funny. Butterflyleo is already trying to create a a very false dichotomy BTW God and religious Gods that he can keep beating the strawman that he created inside his head.

Also OP so we do not forget why this debate was set up. It was because you said the below on another thread.

I'll address your 3 paragraphs.
I don't believe in the existence of gods and I strongly believe that they don't exist. There is more evidence to the non-existence of god than to his existence. (going into all that will be tedious)
The inconsistencies in the man and nature is enough proof of god's non-existence.

Please, state one thing I believe in that can't be proven empirically since you know me so well all of a sudden.

I believe in the human race. Yes, man can be evil and cruel but that's all part of the package. Man can also be kind and caring and sympathetic. also part of the package. I believe the ability of people to be moral and humane without the intervention of a supposed deity

And I responded thus

I would like to see the evidence you have for the non existence of God. You say it may be tedious but I still insist on seeing it.


I do not see any Inconsistencies between man and nature. All I see is cooperation. I still want to see your evidence.


I will state more than one.

1. Logical and mathematical truths cannot be proven by science. Logic presupposes science.

2. Metaphysical truths (like the past was not created 5 minutes ago with an appearance of age)

3. Ethical truths

4. Aesthetic truths

5. Science itself (since science is based on assumptions that can’t be proven)


6. the existence of the universe (why is there universe at all?) This cannot be proven scientifically

7. the beginning of the universe (assuming it had one) also cannot be proven

8. the existence of scientific laws


9. the existence of conscious minds

10. the fine-tuning of the physical constants

11. most of the things that are of greatest importance to us such as love, meaning, purpose and the need for significance.

12. most of the things that happen in our lives such as why a person lives in a certain place, works in a particular job or marries a particular person.

You might argue that one day science will explain everything, but this response is just a matter of blind faith and is confused. You can use a hammer as a great tool for hitting a nail into wood, but it isn’t the right kind of tool for fixing my mobile phone.

Similarly, science is a great way to make sense of many features of the physical universe, but it isn’t the right kind of ‘tool’ for explaining the things listed above


For years we have seen the extent humans can go in their thirst for recognition, conquest, etc. Wars have come and gone and nobody learned from the past and wars are here again. Nobody learned from past deaths and killings and murders as all these are still very much around today and getting worse with the growth of sophisticated methods.

It is easier to do evil than to do good due to our flawed nature. For example I have seen you insult someone right on this thread even without him provoking you. This shows how evil is strong in man.

If a foundation to a building is wrong or broken, there is no structure that can stand on it. It would only be a matter of time and the foundation which is faulty would be exposed again.

Countries with moral laws still would go to war with other countries. Still would jail, kill, their citizens or anyone who breaks those laws. Men who break laws themselves now sit as judge over others who also break laws and condemn them. Is that being humane?

You now said

This discussion will be a long one that i'd rather not continue on this thread.
If you wish to continue it, I can contact you via email or a method of your choosing.

And I responded

Open a separate thread let's discuss it openly just you and me

So while we are here and debating I still would like to see the evidence you have for the non existence of gods or God.

Dalam0n:


These guys are funny. Butterflyleo is already trying to create a a very false dichotomy BTW God and religious Gods that he can keep beating the strawman that he created inside his head.

I have heard. The Op knows how this debate came about and I have posted it. So kindly let he and I do what we came here for. If you want to call it false dichotomy that's your perception. I am only basing this debate on the OPs words as stipulated.

Butterflyleo:


To clear the air on your first foundation regarding Omniscience and omnipotence. Both are actually compatible and based on your definition you said this means having unlimited power. This means god should be able to do anything and everything

Everything also includes the ability to do nothing about it if this God chooses especially since he already knows the end from the beginning. Or better yet the creation of this God could just be acting out an already given script unknown to them and are simply being guided by thought, idea (from the outside) which then translates to action be it good or bad.

If God simply chose to change the course of his creation it could have been as a lesson. E.g he deliberately used the first blueprint to prove a point about our uselessness and weakness without his being in the full picture and then brought in the second blueprint as a comparison so we can now see and better understand why the first blueprint was deliberately made inadequate. So we then get to choose on our own volition.

Also your OP says all religious gods do not exist and that can be easily refuted thus.

1)Mother Theresa though dead is currently being Worshipped as a Hindu goddess by some inhabitants of Kolkata.

2) Guan Yu also dead as far back as 618 CE has been deified as early as the Sui Dynasty and is still popularly worshipped today among the Chinese people as an indigenous Chinese deity, He is seen as a bodhisattva in Buddhism and a guardian deity in Taoism.

3) George Washington himself is worshipped as a kami in Hawaiian Shinto shrines. In the United States Capitol dome, he is also depicted ascending into Heaven and becoming a god, in the famous painting called The Apotheosis of Washington.

4) L.L Zamenhof is Considered a god by members of the Oomoto religion.

And there are many more. Note you used the qualifier religious god and not God

first of all, these people you have mentioned are dead. that they are worshiped doesn't make them gods. they existed at some point but they don't exist now. And i mean exist in a physical sense because these people were human.

One of the arguments for the existence of god is intelligent design.
The question is, are we really an intelligent design?
Have you ever played a game where you play god? Games like sims... when playing such games, you have the opportunity to design your sims to your taste.
A huge majority of first time players design their sims to perfection. Some go as far as using game cheats to give their sims wealth, happiness, immunity from illness, to name a few. That sounds more like intelligent design to me.

Creationism says god created the world and everything in it.
Let's look at the earth first.
Natural disasters have plagued the world since time immemorial. I know your pitiful defense will be that god designed it that way. Was his design to take human life that he created? Earthquakes, flash floods, hurricanes...have consumed countless lives. Disasters that serve no purpose. To what end? Since the bible says that nothing happens without god's permission, does that mean that a loving god that sent his son to die for his creations cannot will those disasters away? or is he a sadist that enjoys watching his creation die? or does he have no control over the events on earth?

Let's look at man. god apparently said "lets make man in our own image and likeness". (the meaning of this has been open to debate) but I am inclined to believe that he was being literal since the god of the old testament was not known for metaphors.
Man, without his tools and weapons, is one of the weakest creations. The american field ant can withstand pressure up too 5000 times its body weight...lol. the largest known deadweight lift by a man is 500kg.
The eyes of man are not even the best in the business... cats and ospreys have it wayyyy better. Our nose and ability to smell? Even rats do better. How about our hearing? Cats, rats, dogs have it better.
We are one of the slowest creatures. the fastest man runs at about 27kmh... rhinos go at 50.. dogs at 64.. horses at 40... lol. cats are even faster at 48kmh.
We are susceptible to sickness, heat, cold, injuries... our skin is easily broken... we have totally useless parts. the appendix, the tailbone..

Again, your argument will be that we are yet to understand the purposes of those useless parts.

This isn't intelligent design. It is evolution.

The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

The universe had a start - what caused it?
Thunder fire u there for even coming up with the topic "God does not exist "

Paradigm777:
The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

The universe had a start - what caused it?
Thunder fire u there for even coming up with the topic "God does not exist "

lol. i'm waiting for the thunder from your impotent god.
ask him to strike me down if he can.

DeLioncourt:


first of all, these people you have mentioned are dead. that they are worshiped doesn't make them gods. they existed at some point but they don't exist now. And i mean exist in a physical sense because these people were human.

One of the arguments for the existence of god is intelligent design.
The question is, are we really an intelligent design?
Have you ever played a game where you play god? Games like sims... when playing such games, you have the opportunity to design your sims to your taste.
A huge majority of first time players design their sims to perfection. Some go as far as using game cheats to give their sims wealth, happiness, immunity from illness, to name a few. That sounds more like intelligent design to me.

Creationism says god created the world and everything in it.
Let's look at the earth first.
Natural disasters have plagued the world since time immemorial. I know your pitiful defense will be that god designed it that way. Was his design to take human life that he created? Earthquakes, flash floods, hurricanes...have consumed countless lives. Disasters that serve no purpose. To what end? Since the bible says that nothing happens without god's permission, does that mean that a loving god that sent his son to die for his creations cannot will those disasters away? or is he a sadist that enjoys watching his creation die? or does he have no control over the events on earth?

Let's look at man. god apparently said "lets make man in our own image and likeness". (the meaning of this has been open to debate) but I am inclined to believe that he was being literal since the god of the old testament was not known for metaphors.
Man, without his tools and weapons, is one of the weakest creations. The american field ant can withstand pressure up too 5000 times its body weight...lol. the largest known deadweight lift by a man is 500kg.
The eyes of man are not even the best in the business... cats and ospreys have it wayyyy better. Our nose and ability to smell? Even rats do better. How about our hearing? Cats, rats, dogs have it better.
We are one of the slowest creatures. the fastest man runs at about 27kmh... rhinos go at 50.. dogs at 64.. horses at 40... lol. cats are even faster at 48kmh.
We are susceptible to sickness, heat, cold, injuries... our skin is easily broken... we have totally useless parts. the appendix, the tailbone..

Again, your argument will be that we are yet to understand the purposes of those useless parts.

This isn't intelligent design. It is evolution.

You are beginning to drift.

Your OP says religious gods do not exist.
And I just showed you that they exist. If they are dead or not is inconsequential. They existed before and still exist in the minds of their followers as gods.

Religion is defined thus

religion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods

And the list I gave you are worshipped and personal gods.

So they exist.

Paradigm777:
The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

The universe had a start - what caused it?
Thunder fire u there for even coming up with the topic "God does not exist "

Lmao! go and take several seats

Butterflyleo:


You are beginning to drift.

Your OP says religious gods do not exist.
And I just showed you that they exist. If they are dead or not is inconsequential. They existed before and still exist in the minds of their followers as gods.

Religion is defined thus



And the list I gave you are worshipped and personal gods.

So they exist.

See the silly games you play?

So mother Theresa exist as a God? Where is she?

Butterflyleo:


You are beginning to drift.

Your OP says religious gods do not exist.
And I just showed you that they exist. If they are dead or not is inconsequential. They existed before and still exist in the minds of their followers as gods.

Religion is defined thus



And the list I gave you are worshipped and personal gods.

So they exist.

words in bold.
last time I checked, that's what imagination is about .