Butterflyleo:


Actually atheists claim atheism was the status quo before theism arrived on the scene.

So that changes your comment and that also tells you what you need to do.

lol. this only fuels the notion that gods were invented by man.

DeLioncourt:


lol. this only fuels the notion that gods were invented by man.

No. It only fuels the notion that atheists can claim anything.

As for those that want to sit on the fence (agnostics), know that your choice is respected but is as impoverished as the choice to believe

Lol...you don't get it do you? we don't fvcking care! We'd rather care about living a moral and just life than indulge in an unending argument about both the flying spaghetti monster and a thousand acclaimed supreme beings: its an endless cycle that sucks your energy.

If a last day comes and the christian god appears to be real, we join the muslims and other religious practitioners to hell fire gladly. If the muslim god appears to be real, we gladly join christians and others to Allah's hellfire. If none of them are real, we take our own firewood, matches and fuel and start our own hellfire.

Simple.

MaziOmenuko:


Lol...you don't get it do you? we don't fvcking care! We'd rather care about living a moral and just life than indulge in an unending argument about both the flying spaghetti monster and a thousand acclaimed supreme beings: its an endless cycle that sucks your energy.

If a last day comes and the christian god appears to be real, we join the muslims and other religious practitioners to hell fire gladly. If the muslim god appears to be real, we gladly join christians and others to Allah's hellfire. If none of them are real, we take our own firewood, matches and fuel and start our own hellfire.

Simple.

very presumptuous lifestyle....But it's yours

kovah:
Putting ur reality b4 others...or challenging others reality...Is saying they don't have a right to live or exist cos ur existence is d right one

I wonder why people do this, "Putting ur reality b4 others...or challenging others reality". Might it be because peoples' perception affect others?

Consider homosexuality for instance. What business is it of the non-participators. Now consider Christianity itself! I am sure if they didn't claim those who don't believe what they believe are fools, why would anyone be against them? But when they go into schools and start teaching my child 'Jesus Christ', 'eternal life', 'you're going to hell', 'God', I insist that it becomes my duty to ask if the existence being imposed is the right one, sorry!

budaatum:

I wonder why people do this, "Putting ur reality b4 others...or challenging others reality". Might it be because peoples' perception affect others?

Consider homosexuality for instance. What business is it of the non-participators. Now consider Christianity itself! I am sure if they didn't claim those who don't believe what they believe are fools, why would anyone be against them? But when they go into schools and start teaching my child 'Jesus Christ', 'eternal life', 'you're going to hell', 'God', I insist that it becomes my duty to ask if the existence being imposed is the right one, sorry!

nothing is forced down any child's throat ...It's a life choice if ur child welcomes homosexuality or Christianity... It's dat child's decision...You can go to d school and challenge whoever is doing dat...But u r just limiting dat child's choices in life perception... Making u d one forcing ur own perception of reality on dat child...Let ur child hear ur ideas and others and understand his or her own reality

kovah:
nothing is forced down any child's throat ...It's a life choice if ur child welcomes homosexuality or Christianity... It's dat child's decision...You can go to d school and challenge whoever is doing dat...But u r just limiting dat child's choices in life perception... Making u d one forcing ur own perception of reality on dat child...Let ur child hear ur ideas and others and understand his or her own reality

This too was DeLioncourt 's opinion, that I should introduce all views to my child instead of shoving my own crap down it's throat. I think he thought I intended to shove 'Jesus' down my child's throat. You may read the convo here.

Now, be honest, and I assume you are a Jesus person as opposed to a Muhammedan. Have you ever been to a Mosque, read a Quran or studied Islam? Were you given all the information and told to make up your own mind? Will you introduce your child to the Quran, take it to a Mosque or teach it Islam and tell it to make up its own mind? Would you go much further and 'teach' your child about other religions too and ask it to make up its own mind? Were you not indoctrinated into your current worldview? Would you also not shove your own worldview down your child's throat?

By the way, the law where I live does not allow religious indoctrination in schools anymore. Students are taught about all religions and ideas of gods etc in religious studies as part of the curriculum even in religious schools, and any school seen not to do so will be heavily sanctioned and eventually closed down if they do not desist. The consequence is that the veil religion uses to invoke belief has been removed, thank gott! The increase in knowledge about other religions is on the whole why religious bigotry has reduced significantly in the country. We also teach about personal choices and differences and family has been redefined so children do not find it strange that Billy has two mummies or Jane has two daddies. And we teach that it doesn't matter if you're black or white, we all bleed red blood, and the consequence is that racism has significantly been reduced. And just so you know, I approve of how we educate our children in the society I live in. It is how I was educated and I like me very much for it.

It is my opinion that it is irresponsible for a parent to allow others to fill their child's head with stupid ideas, and if anyone is going to fill my child's head with stupid, I got enough stupid (which in my case, but obviously not everyone else's, will be equipping it with the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff, and not just telling it "this is the wheat, and this is the chaff" ), of my own thank you! You sir are very welcome to allow others to fill your child's head for you!

budaatum:

This too was DeLioncourt 's opinion, that I should introduce all views to my child instead of shoving my own crap down it's throat. I think he thought I intended to shove 'Jesus' down my child's throat. You may read the convo here.

Now, be honest, and I assume you are a Jesus person as opposed to a Muhammedan. Have you ever been to a Mosque, read a Quran or studied Islam? Were you given all the information and told to make up your own mind? Will you introduce your child to the Quran, take it to a Mosque or teach it Islam and tell it to make up its own mind? Would you go much further and 'teach' your child about other religions too and ask it to make up its own mind? Were you not indoctrinated into your current worldview? Would you also not shove your own worldview down your child's throat?

I have read parts of d Koran...Yes I am a Jesus person...I also know I am not d smartest person in any room I enter.... Neither am I d dumbest...But I understand dat d dumbest can teach d smartest person...My child could b d smartest person and me d dumbest...So should I make my child dumb cos I am dumb?

By the way, the law where I live does not allow religious indoctrination in schools anymore. Students are taught about all religions and ideas of gods etc in religious studies as part of the curriculum even in religious schools, and any school seen not to do so will be heavily sanctioned and eventually closed down if they do not desist. The consequence is that the veil religion uses to invoke belief has been removed, thank gott!.[/quote]So even if a child wants to learn more abt a religion u know little or nothing abt...He or she is limited in knowledge.....Dats a very good schooling system..... The increase in knowledge about other religions is on the whole why religious bigotry has reduced significantly in the country. .[/quote]...You kid yourself dat it has reduced....or the religious upset towards Muslims....was reduced..After 9 11..We also teach about personal choices and differences and family has been redefined so children do not find it strange that Billy has two mummies or Jane has two daddies. And we teach that it doesn't matter if you're black or white, we all bleed red blood, and the consequence is that racism has significantly been reduced[/quote]. And the protest dat BLACK LIVES MATTER was very reduced.....And just so you know, I approve of how we educate our children in the society I live in. It is how I was educated and I like me very much for it.[/quote]good for you

It is my opinion that it is irresponsible for a parent to allow others to fill their child's head with stupid ideas, and if anyone is going to fill my child's head with stupid, I got enough stupid (which in my case, but obviously not everyone else's, will be equipping it with the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff, and not just telling it "this is the wheat, and this is the chaff" ), of my own thank you! You sir are very welcome to allow others to fill your child's head for you! [/quote]ur chaff is someone's food

kovah:
I have read parts of d Koran...Yes I am a Jesus person...I also know I am not d smartest person in any room I enter.... Neither am I d dumbest...But I understand dat d dumbest can teach d smartest person...My child could b d smartest person and me d dumbest...So should I make my child dumb cos I am dumb?

I agree. And if what I shoved down my child's throat was religious indoctrination, I must burn in hell for making my child dumb like me. But I am lucky. My own 'indoctrination' was the sort whereby I was given the information to make up my own mind and that's the indoctrination I will give to my child. But let us not delude ourselves that if I were a Jesus person, I would allow my child to be indoctrinated into Islam. Its my child, and like everyone with regards to their child, I will not let my apple fall too far from me the tree.

kovah:
So even if a child wants to learn more abt a religion u know little or nothing abt...He or she is limited in knowledge.....Dats a very good schooling system.....

My parents were wishy washy Christians (well, somewhat, when they had me), and though I was baptised, they never shoved religion down my throat, partly because they were too busy working, and mostly because of their wishy washy Christianity. Tomorrow though, Thursday, my ma will go to Bible Study and ask questions like "How can Mary born Jesus without sleeping with Joseph?", and return and say " buda, you must accept Christ into your life!"

Education where I grew up was as I described though, so you can see how I might turn out as I have opinion wise. And since I think it is so good, why would I not ensure my child reasons as I do? If I were a Jesus person, is it not also my duty to make sure my child goes to the same heaven I will be going to? In fact, how can I believe I will go to heaven if I allow my child to think and believe things that will take it to hell?

kovah:
You kid yourself dat it has reduced....or the religious upset towards Muslims....was reduced..After 9 11..

Oh, it significantly has. Said Khan, a Muslim, would never have been elected as Mayor of the whole of London prior to 9/11.

kovah:
And the protest dat BLACK LIVES MATTER was very reduced.....

Temper that with Barack Obama, a black President of America. Doesn't that say something?

The equivalent in UK would be our riots and all. We even have political parties that promote bigotry, the English Defence League, British National Party, UK Independence Party, but go check how badly they do in the polls.

kovah:
good for you

Thank you. If I wanted to elevate myself, I will claim I am educating my child, but we had a discussion on here where KingEbukasBlog and some others argued that all educating is indoctrination, and I use the word in the sense they proposed. If I find the thread I will post a link.

kovah:
ur chaff is someone's food

Oh, I know that. And that's why it is my duty to feed my child what I call my wheat and not what some other person calls food. They can feed my chaff or their own chaff to their own child if they want to!

Butterflyleo:


No. It only fuels the notion that atheists can claim anything.

Atheists make no claim.
Theists do.

budaatum:

We had a discussion on here where KingEbukasBlog and some others argued that all educating is indoctrination, and I use the word in the sense they proposed. If I find the thread I will post a link.

Eureka! I found it kovah .

butterflyl1on:

ANYTHING TAUGHT IS INDOCTRINATION BE IT DOCTRINE, DOCUMENTS. ACADEMIA, ETC.

I disagree of course, to "teach", in no way means to "indoctrinate", but I have been using the word 'indoctrinate' as they implied. As in, each parent does as they know how to do, and only the most irresponsible parent would not do either.

Click on the quoted for thread.

DeLioncourt:


Atheists make no claim.
Theists do.

So God does not exist is not a claim? Lmao

If atheists claim atheism was the status quo originally then who made the claim of God does not exist first? Are you confused?

Butterflyleo:


So God does not exist is not a claim? Lmao

If atheists claim atheism was the status quo originally then who made the claim of God does not exist first? Are you confused?

It was the status quo.
Simply put, there wasn't any belief to begin with. There were just people.
There was no back and forth until some folks decided to invent deities to believe in.
My mistake was saying "god does not exist". I call this a mistake because there currently no foolproof way to disprove god's existence. There will always be some illogical line of argument in favor of his existence...it is, after all, one man's imagination.
Atheists say "there is no reason to believe that God exists". And before the name was coined, before religion was created, there wasnt and still isn't any reason to believe in the existence of god.

DeLioncourt:


It was the status quo.
Simply put, there wasn't any belief to begin with. There were just people.
There was no back and forth until some folks decided to invent deities to believe in.
My mistake was saying "god does not exist". I call this a mistake because there currently no foolproof way to disprove god's existence. There will always be some illogical line of argument in favor of his existence...it is, after all, one man's imagination.
Atheists say "there is no reason to believe that God exists". And before the name was coined, before religion was created, there wasnt and still isn't any reason to believe in the existence of god.

So now the next escape tactic is to now say " its a mistake"? So saying God does not exist is now a mistake? Lmao

Remind me the definition of atheism again.

If you say declaring God does not exist is a mistake then that would render you and your brood of atheists jobless on nairaland and by extension, the whole world as your posts about this and your threads about this would cease to exist and so would you.

If you say God was one mans imagination, can you show me this man and when the imagination began and where? I guess this "imagination" must have been very powerful to have spread so fast and still spreading beyond the 7+ billion people having it now which is about 84% of the world population.

Butterflyleo:


So now the next escape tactic is to now say " its a mistake"? So saying God does not exist is now a mistake? Lmao

Remind me the definition of atheism again.

If you say declaring God does not exist is a mistake then that would render you and your brood of atheists jobless on nairaland and by extension, the whole world as your posts about this and your threads about this would cease to exist and so would you.

If you say God was one mans imagination, can you show me this man and when the imagination began and where? I guess this "imagination" must have been very powerful to have spread so fast and still spreading beyond the 7+ billion people having it now which is about 84% of the world population.

You misconstrue my words.
In explanation, I propose a question.
It's a simple yes or no question.

Do you believe that dragons and wizards with wands and magic cloaks exist?
.

DeLioncourt:


You misconstrue my words.
In explanation, I propose a question.
It's a simple yes or no question.

Do you believe that dragons and wizards with wands and magic cloaks exist?
.

That's my point being made for me. Do you see me talking about wizards with magic wands, dragons, magic cloaks? NO

Do I see you talking about God despite your claims he does not exist? YES

When you constantly talk about something that you say does not exist that means you are yet subciounsly able to accept that it does not exist.

Something that does not exist would NEVER and I repeat NEVER come into your train or thought repeatedly as you are doing with God whom you claim does not exist.

Butterflyleo:


That's my point being made for me. Do you see me talking about wizards with magic wands, dragons, magic cloaks? NO

Do I see you talking about God despite your claims he does not exist? YES

When you constantly talk about something that you say does not exist that means you are yet subciounsly able to accept that it does not exist.

Something that does not exist would NEVER and I repeat NEVER come into your train or thought repeatedly as you are doing with God whom you claim does not exist.

On the contrary, having an opinion on a topic doesn't connote belief - subconscious or not - in any of the elements concerning that topic.
I am not a fan of the twilight series, but I would share an opinion on it if I had one. This does not mean I am subconsciously a fan the series.

And you should probably check the definition of "constantly", because I have never engaged anyone on this platform on this topic prior to the last few days.

The point of my question was, you don't believe in dragons and wizards...yet there is a book - 8 books in fact - that say they exist. Can you disprove their existence? It is written, is it not?

DeLioncourt:


On the contrary, having an opinion on a topic doesn't connote belief - subconscious or not - in any of the elements concerning that topic.
I am not a fan of the twilight series, but I would share an opinion on it if I had one. This does not mean I am subconsciously a fan the series.

And you should probably check the definition of "constantly", because I have never engaged anyone on this platform on this topic prior to the last few days.

The point of my question was, you don't believe in dragons and wizards...yet there is a book - 8 books in fact - that say they exist. Can you disprove their existence? It is written, is it not?

I keep trying to tell you, I do not aim to disprove nothing. That is your department and not mine.

My comment about " constantly" was in reference to atheists generally and not to you specifically.

Sharing an opinion about something is totally different from making an assertion on it especially one done so passionately

Butterflyleo:


I keep trying to tell you, I do not aim to disprove nothing. That is your department and not mine.

My comment about " constantly" was in reference to atheists generally and not to you specifically.

Sharing an opinion about something is totally different from making an assertion on it especially one done so passionately

which is why i said i was wrong making the assertion (which you misconstrued). I should have said instead that there is no reason and sufficient evidence to believe in god.

Atheism is not defined as there is not god. It's simply a disbelief in the existence of one.

DeLioncourt:


which is why i said i was wrong making the assertion (which you misconstrued). I should have said instead that there is no reason and sufficient evidence to believe in god.

Atheism is not defined as there is not god. It's simply a disbelief in the existence of one.

Then your OP is wrong and so are you. Disbelief does not negate existence. Lack of evidence does not mean such a thing does not exist prior to evidence.

Its like when we had no evidence for bacteria or gold or plasmodium yet that did not mean they did not exist did it?

And also I never misconstrued your assertion. It was faulty, erroneous and vapid.

Butterflyleo:


Then your OP is wrong and so are you. Disbelief does not negate existence. Lack of evidence does not mean such a thing does not exist prior to evidence.

Its like when we had no evidence for bacteria or gold or plasmodium yet that did not mean they did not exist did it?

And also I never misconstrued your assertion. It was faulty, erroneous and vapid.

I have said that twice haven't I? It doesn't bother me to admit that I made a wrong choice of words. However, it doesn't mean that I concede to the notion that god exists.

I still maintain that there is no reasonable evidence to god's existence...such as there is none to the existence of fire breathing dragons.

DeLioncourt:


I have said that twice haven't I? It doesn't bother me to admit that I made a wrong choice of words. However, it doesn't mean that I concede to the notion that god exists.

I still maintain that there is no reasonable evidence to god's existence...such as there is none to the existence of fire breathing dragons.

Well like I also have repeated. Not all evidence is "reasonable". Some are plain outlandish and crazy but they still stand as evidence.

budaatum:

I agree. And if what I shoved down my child's throat was religious indoctrination, I must burn in hell for making my child dumb like me. But I am lucky. My own 'indoctrination' was the sort whereby I was given the information to make up my own mind and that's the indoctrination I will give to my child. But let us not delude ourselves that if I were a Jesus person, I would allow my child to be indoctrinated into Islam. Its my child, and like everyone with regards to their child, I will not let my apple fall too far from me the tree.


My parents were wishy washy Christians (well, somewhat, when they had me), and though I was baptised, they never shoved religion down my throat, partly because they were too busy working, and mostly because of their wishy washy Christianity. Tomorrow though, Thursday, my ma will go to Bible Study and ask questions like "How can Mary born Jesus without sleeping with Joseph?", and return and say " buda, you must accept Christ into your life!"

Education where I grew up was as I described though, so you can see how I might turn out as I have opinion wise. And since I think it is so good, why would I not ensure my child reasons as I do? If I were a Jesus person, is it not also my duty to make sure my child goes to the same heaven I will be going to? In fact, how can I believe I will go to heaven if I allow my child to think and believe things that will take it to hell?


Oh, it significantly has. Said Khan, a Muslim, would never have been elected as Mayor of the whole of London prior to 9/11.


Temper that with Barack Obama, a black President of America. Doesn't that say something?

The equivalent in UK would be our riots and all. We even have political parties that promote bigotry, the English Defence League, British National Party, UK Independence Party, but go check how badly they do in the polls.


Thank you. If I wanted to elevate myself, I will claim I am educating my child, but we had a discussion on here where KingEbukasBlog and some others argued that all educating is indoctrination, and I use the word in the sense they proposed. If I find the thread I will post a link.


Oh, I know that. And that's why it is my duty to feed my child what I call my wheat and not what some other person calls food. They can feed my chaff or their own chaff to their own child if they want to!

the Holocaust was brought about by Hitler's ideology but he didn't personally lite d fire dat burnt millions of Jews neither did he personally kill and torture Jews... He tapped into wat d majority of Germans in dat time were thinking but not acting on....Trump wants to build a wall and he was elected... The true nature of man isn't wat he does dat u can see but wat is hidden in his heart ...In d UK u mentioned blacks r killed by young minds dat have not been educated well enough to know dat we r all same...If they knew d technological advancements Africans had b4 d colonials came...They would not think we still to dis day live in trees....But they have no idea dat we have technologies....So they treat us in dat context...No matter wat u perceive in ur situation...If u had an iota of idea how d people around u regard u...U would see dat letting d next generation accept all ideas and discern those ideas for them selves is d next logical step in our enlightenment... Religion is d reason for majority of d world issues...D fact dat a mind is stream lined into thinking dat his way is d only way or d right way will only lead to destruction...Emacipate yourselves from your mental slavery... Accept all even if u don't understand them...Hear listen learn... Don't separate or disassociate or condemn cause of your mental prison... Freedoms of choice is d only real thing we have.... Taking it away from an unformed mind...Is creating a path of destruction...Creating killers who justify killings cause they know nothing abt d people they kill or were taught to see those people as in d wrong....

kovah:
The true nature of man isn't wat he does dat u can see but wat is hidden in his heart ...

Hmm. Remember the conversation we had about oxygen, and the fallacy of making things up in one's head and calling it reality?

I can't see into the heart of another person, so all I have is how they treat me. Making things up about people with no supporting evidence is indicative of a mental illness, schizophrenia, to be precise, paranoia at the very least.

kovah:
If they knew d technological advancements Africans had b4 d colonials came...They would not think we still to dis day live in trees....But they have no idea dat we have technologies....So they treat us in dat context...

Who thinks you live in trees? Don't they fly planes to your countries to visit you? Please stop making up a false reality in your head! It is unhealthy!

kovah:
No matter wat u perceive in ur situation...If u had an iota of idea how d people around u regard u...U would see dat letting d next generation accept all ideas and discern those ideas for them selves is d next logical step in our enlightenment...

You, kovah, are people around me. And I know I just said I cannot see into people's hearts, but I'll have a go anyway:

I think you regard me very highly and respect my right to hold my opinion. You would never be rude to me, or even think of insulting me.

Go on, tell me I don't know how you regard me!

As to the next generation doing as they please, that goes without saying. Each generation does as they please so what's new. Give enough time and Nigerian men will even marry other men as Nigerian women too will marry women. It is the next logical step, as you mention. Or do you think we don't have gay people in our country already?

kovah:
Religion is d reason for majority of d world issues...D fact dat a mind is stream lined into thinking dat his way is Emacipate yourselves from your mental slavery...

Religion is the worst type of indoctrination there is, and that is mental slavery. Intelligent people don't go around looking for what to believe, they go about seeking knowledge instead. But religion is not about knowledge, it is about belief, even when there is no evidence whatsoever to support said beliefs!

So, who should be emancipating themselves, I dare wonder?

kovah:
Accept all even if u don't understand them...Hear listen learn... Don't separate or disassociate or condemn cause of your mental prison... Freedoms of choice is d only real thing we have.... Taking it away from an unformed mind...Is creating a path of destruction...Creating killers who justify killings cause they know nothing abt d people they kill or were taught to see those people as in d wrong....

I am sure there are some things you just freely choose to outright reject. Murder would be a classic example, and perhaps stealing. Do you reject these things because of some mental prison? Be that as it may be, I reserve the right to reject unfounded beliefs when I can go and seek knowledge instead. I just find it impossible to believe in the absurd.

Do note, I 'indoctrinate' my child with "thou shalt not kill" and wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a vegetarian!

budaatum:

Hmm. Remember the conversation we had about oxygen, and the fallacy of making things up in one's head and calling it reality?

I can't see into the heart of another person, so all I have is how they treat me. Making things up about people with no supporting evidence is indicative of a mental illness, schizophrenia, to be precise, paranoia at the very least.

Who thinks you live in trees? Don't they fly planes to your countries to visit you? Please stop making up a false reality in your head! It is unhealthy!


You, kovah, are people around me. And I know I just said I cannot see into people's hearts, but I'll have a go anyway:

I think you regard me very highly and respect my right to hold my opinion. You would never be rude to me, or even think of insulting me.

Go on, tell me I don't know how you regard me!

As to the next generation doing as they please, that goes without saying. Each generation does as they please so what's new. Give enough time and Nigerian men will even marry other men as Nigerian women too will marry women. It is the next logical step, as you mention. Or do you think we don't have gay people in our country already?


Religion is the worst type of indoctrination there is, and that is mental slavery. Intelligent people don't go around looking for what to believe, they go about seeking knowledge instead. But religion is not about knowledge, it is about belief, even when there is no evidence whatsoever to support said beliefs!

So, who should be emancipating themselves, I dare wonder?


I am sure there are some things you just freely choose to outright reject. Murder would be a classic example, and perhaps stealing. Do you reject these things because of some mental prison? Be that as it may be, I reserve the right to reject unfounded beliefs when I can go and seek knowledge instead. I just find it impossible to believe in the absurd.

Do note, I 'indoctrinate' my child with "thou shalt not kill" and wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a vegetarian!

first not realizing how people see you is putting on rose coloured glasses... Second do ur research on Africa and how d Western world veiws the African continent... Hollywood n other social media education...Then u can tell me they don't think us backward...Third my idea of u isn't what u protested not even close... Fourth intelligent people do look for what to believe in dat y there r some many advancements in all aspects of life...Cos of dreamers and believers.... Fifth tolerance is what we as humans lack...We can't tolerate anything dat is not in anyway convince to our understanding.... Like me trying to get u to open up ur child's mind eye to everything...U can't tolerate dat.... Sixth yes religion is a problem cause it separates every human into different categories....I wouldn't reject murder of a pedophile or stealing in a Robin Hood manner...

kovah:
first not realizing how people see you is putting on rose coloured glasses... Second do ur research on Africa and how d Western world veiws the African continent... Hollywood n other social media education...Then u can tell me they don't think us backward...Third my idea of u isn't what u protested not even close... Fourth intelligent people do look for what to believe in dat y there r some many advancements in all aspects of life...Cos of dreamers and believers.... Fifth tolerance is what we as humans lack...We can't tolerate anything dat is not in anyway convince to our understanding.... Like me trying to get u to open up ur child's mind eye to everything...U can't tolerate dat.... Sixth yes religion is a problem cause it separates every human into different categories....I wouldn't reject murder of a pedophile or stealing in a Robin Hood manner...

I do know how people see me. I even told you, a 'people', how you see me. If I am wrong, do tell, or is that what you meant when you wrote "Third my idea of u isn't what u protested not even close.." If so, prove it. Show me where you insult me! Or are rude to me, or think I have no right to have my opinion!

As to backwardness, We, Nigeria, don't have running water, our gutters do not go round the street corner, our waste is not centrally collected, we have constant electricity failures, government employees are not paid salary when due, our roads are not well repaired, our hospitals are not well equipped, our children die of diseases that can easily be avoided or treated, and so on and so on... We are backward, and I don't have to be a westerner to say so!

Some humans may lack tolerance, and some do not.

budaatum:

I do know how people see me. I even told you, a 'people', how you see me. If I am wrong, do tell, or is that what you meant when you wrote "Third my idea of u isn't what u protested not even close.." If so, prove it. Show me where you insult me! Or are rude to me, or think I have no right to have my opinion!

As to backwardness, We, Nigeria, don't have running water, our gutters do not go round the street corner, our waste is not centrally collected, we have constant electricity failures, government employees are not paid salary when due, our roads are not well repaired, our hospitals are not well equipped, our children die of diseases that can easily be avoided or treated, and so on and so on... We are backward, and I don't have to be a westerner to say so!

Some humans may lack tolerance, and some do not.

don't insult cos there is no need to....But dat doesn't mean I can't...I just see it as necessary...We had a well organized system b4 colonization...A health system...Good roads dat impressed Lord lugard....Walls as high as d China wall... Sanitary system.. Artisans skilled in arts... Medicine...poetry...technology.But d Westerners never let us develop in our own way... They forced their doctrines on us...So we are not us as we should be ...But us as they told we should be...We were d dumb child learning but our parent decided their way was better and here we are agruing their ideology

kovah:
don't insult cos there is no need to....But dat doesn't mean I can't...I just see it as necessary...We had a well organized system b4 colonization...A health system...Good roads dat impressed Lord lugard....Walls as high as d China wall... Sanitary system.. Artisans skilled in arts... Medicine...poetry...technology.But d Westerners never let us develop in our own way... They forced their doctrines on us...So we are not us as we should be ...But us as they told we should be...We were d dumb child learning but our parent decided their way was better and here we are agruing their ideology

Of course you can insult, but you wouldn't insult me, and of course, you see no need to. Like I said, I know how you treat me and whatever opinion you may have about me is irrelevant, at the moment.

Just imagine if with no evidence, I decide in my head that you think I am a fool and insult me in your mind, can you see how I might begin to attack you for no reason? Then I bet you would insult me back, and before we know it you and I would be at war, caused by me cooking up false ideas of your opinion of me in my head. I'd also have to lie and say you insulted me first! Millions die for such stupidity and there are numerous threads on here where it has been done! Hopefully, you and I will not be contributing to that number.

Nigerians often claim we were advanced, but the facts don't support that view. We didn't have an alphabet for instance, until Arabic was brought from the North, and sparsely at that. Our medicine was very backward, and the artisanship was rather basic compared to what prevailed elsewhere.

The colonisers were actually able to colonise us because we lacked the things you claim we had. And we adopted western ideas because we found their's to be superior to what we had. Or why would we abandon our Obatala and Ogun for Allah and Yahweh or allow them to enslave us if we were superior in any way whatsoever. If we truly did have those things you claim we had, we would have been able to repel the westerners with their ideology!

Do note that no nation develops without external influence. Britain was colonised by the Romans, and Americas by the Europeans. Even Japan and China was influenced by invaders!

budaatum:

Of course you can insult, but you wouldn't insult me, and of course, you see no need to. Like I said, I know how you treat me and whatever opinion you may have about me is irrelevant, at the moment.

Just imagine if with no evidence, I decide in my head that you think I am a fool and insult me in your mind, can you see how I might begin to attack you for no reason? Then I bet you would insult me back, and before we know it you and I would be at war, caused by me cooking up false ideas of your opinion of me in my head. I'd also have to lie and say you insulted me first! Millions die for such stupidity and there are numerous threads on here where it has been done! Hopefully, you and I will not be contributing to that number.

Nigerians often claim we were advanced, but the facts don't support that view. We didn't have an alphabet for instance, until Arabic was brought from the North, and sparsely at that. Our medicine was very backward, and the artisanship was rather basic compared to what prevailed elsewhere.

The colonisers were actually able to colonise us because we lacked the things you claim we had. And we adopted western ideas because we found their's to be superior to what we had. Or why would we abandon our Obatala and Ogun for Allah and Yahweh or allow them to enslave us if we were superior in any way whatsoever. If we truly did have those things you claim we had, we would have been able to repel the westerners with their ideology!

Do note that no nation develops without external influence. Britain was colonised by the Romans, and Americas by the Europeans. Even Japan and China was influenced by invaders!

all wrong...We were farmers and fishermen and no counting system ...Wrong...We had d NOK art and Benin bronze day was stolen by d west if they had better Artisans y bother with yours... Religious freedom of worship didn't put d northern Nigeria and southern Nigeria in a historical conflict...The Westerners did dat cause d northern region had adapted Islam...So wrong again...They were not better than us... Historical evidence proves dat...They saw a people to b exploited...So here we are....If they had seen d oil ... they wouldn't have given us independent...We were a business venture for them...

budaatum:

Of course you can insult, but you wouldn't insult me, and of course, you see no need to. Like I said, I know how you treat me and whatever opinion you may have about me is irrelevant, at the moment.

Just imagine if with no evidence, I decide in my head that you think I am a fool and insult me in your mind, can you see how I might begin to attack you for no reason? Then I bet you would insult me back, and before we know it you and I would be at war, caused by me cooking up false ideas of your opinion of me in my head. I'd also have to lie and say you insulted me first! Millions die for such stupidity and there are numerous threads on here where it has been done! Hopefully, you and I will not be contributing to that number.

Nigerians often claim we were advanced, but the facts don't support that view. We didn't have an alphabet for instance, until Arabic was brought from the North, and sparsely at that. Our medicine was very backward, and the artisanship was rather basic compared to what prevailed elsewhere.

The colonisers were actually able to colonise us because we lacked the things you claim we had. And we adopted western ideas because we found their's to be superior to what we had. Or why would we abandon our Obatala and Ogun for Allah and Yahweh or allow them to enslave us if we were superior in any way whatsoever. If we truly did have those things you claim we had, we would have been able to repel the westerners with their ideology!

Do note that no nation develops without external influence. Britain was colonised by the Romans, and Americas by the Europeans. Even Japan and China was influenced by invaders!
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This is easily refuted but i will let it go as it is between you and kovah

vaxx:
This is easily refuted but i will let it go as it is between you and kovah

vaxx who colonised the colonials...War.. Their way of living... Disease...Famine...Plagues...The black death... Development in science... Knowledge of animal behavior....A question working a 9 to 5 and saving for ur necessaries food clothing shelter and a billionaire comes to ur home and gives u an investment plan dat wld take 60 years to manifest....U would abandon all ur survival cos he is richer Dan u...

Kovah, I am unfortunately pivoted on the side of western superiority over Nigeria, a side most Nigerians would shirk from holding because it would seem like denigrating my own. Unfortunately, sentiment aside, history is there to observe who had the advantage. It would depend which periods one is considering, of course, for a like for like comparison.

One indicator is history. The more developed a nation was in the past, the more historical records there are showing that development. Go and search for written history about Africa, and you'd find we hardly kept any. How could we have been as developed as nations that kept more detailed and older historical records?

Writing, another indicator, was non-existent in Nigeria until the arrival of Islam and Arabic. It is why our alphabet had to be created by westerners, and along western lines.

Now consider art. Western art had advanced way further than art had in Nigeria by the 1500s, and even our Nok art, which could be called sculptures, had been significantly superseded by the time we were making that art. The reason the Westerner stole ours was not because it was superior, but because, in their opinion, we had never been able to produce such things, and because they were in a superior position so as to steal it without us being able to do anything about it!

Religion, is another indicator of social advancement . Our religions, by the time the westerners arrived, were disjointed, and in Yorubaland, even the worship of the same gods was not universal across neighbouring societies. What Ogun and Sango requested of it's adherents in one community was not necessarily what Ogun and Sango requested in a neighbouring community, whereas, by about 1000AD, Yahweh, was pretty much supreme in most of Western Europe. They had abandoned the equivalent archaic gods of Zeus and Aphrodite, to name a couple, years before and long after some still clung on to Ogun and Sango and still do in current Nigeria! It is Yahweh's superiority that has overwhelmed our gods and turned them into what most refer to as demons today, sadly. If our gods had united and united us, Yahweh would have easily been repelled.

And in case you do not know, Islam had been invading western Nigeria long before the arrival of the westerner. Some have claimed that trans-sahara slavery, a consequence of those invasions, resulted in more people enslaved than those enslaved in the trans-atlantic slave trade!

Then look at philosophy. While Egypt, an African nation, was very well advanced in this by the beginning of the first millennium, albeit couched behind the veil of the gods Osiris et al, Europe was having much more involved discourse about philosophical ideas while Nigeria wasn't.

Now fast forward to the 16th Century. The Western European was travelling the world in very large vessels and covering distances we never imagined existed. They were using ideas and technology we knew nothing of and were able to exploit the void in our knowledge. While they were staring at the moon and planets and writing thesis about them, we were afraid to enter the forests in our backyards least gbomogbomo takes us away and sell us as slaves.

Then consider today. Yes, they impose their ideas and technology on us, but it must be noted that they do not exactly have to over exert themselves for us to accept it. And our acceptance is not out of ignorance but out of acknowledgment of the superiority of what they produce compared to what we produce. Or who amongst us would chose to purchase a made in Nigeria car or phone if they can afford a second hand western made and already used to death one? Do we even make any of these things? Even our said cars are run on imported petrol, and in a country that is amongst the top ten producers of the raw product from which that petrol is made!

And for your information, oil was first discovered at the Oloibiri Oilfield on Sunday 15 January 1956 by Shell Darcy after a lot of exploration by many other western companies. The westerners did let you go after it was discovered though as you wrongly claim, and, they kept their grubby fingers on that oil until we kicked them out with various Indigenisation Bills starting in the early 70s.

I mention all this because of the consequence of not realising as a nation, how far we have developed compared to other nations. Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun, too thought they were superior until the might of the west showed them they weren't, which propelled them to do something about it. China, the most populous nation on earth, realised how far backward they had gotten, and have done a great leap forward to rectify the situation. The Arab world took one look at the objective reality, and while they claim Allah is superior, they accept that a thatched hut in the desert can not be said to be superior to the magnificent stone buildings built in the west. They have been doing quite a lot to rectify the situation . But we Nigerians imagine a glorious past where we were superior and so do nothing to move us forward, while the reality is that we recede further backward compared to the more developing nations.

While the West base their progress on objective reality and build institutions of technology, we seem to think miracles would prevail and build temples in which to pray to gods we create with our imaginations, an ideology the west abandoned centuries ago when they realised it was taking them into darkness which we are in now!

There is a consequence to building up subjective imaginary realities in our heads and refusing to face the objective facts, and it's like believing one can survive in a room that the oxygen has been sucked out of! I think we agreed what the end of that folly is.

kovah:
all wrong...We were farmers and fishermen and no counting system ...Wrong...We had d NOK art and Benin bronze day was stolen by d west if they had better Artisans y bother with yours... Religious freedom of worship didn't put d northern Nigeria and southern Nigeria in a historical conflict...The Westerners did dat cause d northern region had adapted Islam...So wrong again...They were not better than us... Historical evidence proves dat...They saw a people to b exploited...So here we are....If they had seen d oil ... they wouldn't have given us independent...We were a business venture for them...