johnydon22:
I will like to talk about this.

You mean if you repeat same experiment over and over again, same process and all, your answer would improve each time or remain the same? What do you mean by closer or an expected result?

The existence of God is not a mind game and even scientists know this which is why several of them are still trying to rationalise existence outside God and also trying to understand all of nature (which they met and did not create) by pushing forward theories, hypothesis and such like it so as to give a physical explanation to God but have been largely unsuccessful.

There are no facts that exist against the concept of God because facts are based on empiricism which is simply scientific. And it is well known that science cannot prove or disprove God.

That's not the power of the mind. That is actually a reality in all facets of life. We always get rewarded for everything we do be it good or bad. Reward is an unbreakable part of life.

You are born. Reward for this is death.
You die. Reward for this is life.
You work, Reward for this is wages
You are lazy. Reward for this is hunger
Etc.

Every damn thing comes with a reward.

God speaks, God is seen, God is felt, God is loved and is love and loves. All the physical things needed to be done has been done and a majority of his creation attest to this. If I can give birth to a child who looks like me and talks like me and walks like me then its only common sense to know that something else brought me here. Creation resonates God and only the self deceivers would keep denying it such as you are doing.

Many who tried to disprove the existence of God have lived on this earth and died and have been long forgotten but God has waxed stronger. People who have embraced him have increased and will keep doing so. Man cannot let go of God entirely because he is hardwired into our DNA.

When you say MAN you obviously mean you and the 7% world atheist population. The remaining 93% say you are a joker and a liar. If you say its not the duty of man to prove the existence of God then why have you been asking theists to prove the existence of God to you? God has already made his existence obvious and he did it with ease. However, the atheist 7% minority have been having an extremely hard time with making God disappear. So if I am to say who is finding things "too hard to do", its you the atheist minority for God has in such a simple manner proven himself.

Romans 1:20

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

cc muttleylaff am I offtrack?

Butterflyleo:


Yes it would improve or get you an expected result but that is only probable when the parameters are known and not unknown.

Like throwing darts at a dartboard or throwing dice with numbers 1 to 6 on each side.

Parameters are

Dart, dartboard, dice, numbers and frequency of throws.

However in a chaotic environment what stops this chaos at the point of expected result?

What or who knows when expected result has been gotten?

Who or what has knowledge of the parameters available during this chaos?

LiXxGH:
He indirectly talked to me through my pastor who believes in the same God...Though everyone has his/her own God or god, i strongly believe mine does exist. Now to clear up things, i sat one on one with my pastor for the first time during counceling and he began telling me stuff i did in the past which i thought no one will or would ever know, then i felt so ashamed and remoseful...u think this could be magic and not the power of God?

franky317:
[/quote author=Butterflyleo post=67038588]



Scientists know what? Is it the duty of scientists to discover God? Or is it the duty of God to reveal himself? Why bring in scientists here? Are scientists the authorities assigned to prove Gods existence?

This is not about science, its about the fact that there is not single evidence of Gods existence... i am not talking about ur usual assumptions of the necessity of God because the world must have a creator. GOD should not leave us to decide if he exists or argue if he exists.... he should show us he exists.

Its the power of the mind but then... i agree with u.

Ya.. and thats how our mind got so much entangled with this unseen God idea

God speaks? How
God is seen? Where
God is felt? How?
No creation attests to anything? If someone comes to tell u that everything on earth attest to the existence of a three headed spiritual monster will u accept?
If ur enstranged son who has never seen u is living in uk...we only conclude that he is born of a man because we know how humans come into the world... but seeing him without seeing his father cannot tell us the kind of person his father is neither can it tell us the way his father looks. He cant even go around talking about his father because he has never met him.
We have no idea how a world is created... we cannot conclude it is God that created this world because we don't even know if the duty of Gods is to create worlds.

A God that waxes only in tge mind of those who believe in him is sure not the God that creates everyone. God is not wired in my dna.. perhaps he is not the one that created me

I am asking theists only to show the falsehood of their believe. Also tge fact that i am asking theists instead of God really shows how unreal God is.

Who made the above statement? How does it prove anything

quote author=johnydon22 post=67048279] What about experiments such as 2 molecules of hydrogen and 1 molecule of oxygen, would these produce different or more improved result each time with exact same variables involved?

Should we subject our perception of the cosmos to the limits of this parameters?

Should we assume the universe as a dice then?

Further clarification. A meteor landing on the surface of the moon creates a local explosion (chaos) which eventually creates an impact result symmetrical at every point (moon crater circles)

what stopped the chaos and made a pattern?

Does the absence of who or what invalidate the possibility of a result from a reaction?

This should be the first penitent question i think

0temSapien:
That's psychology my friend. Lemme add a couple of things you did in the past... you had sex before marriage(fornication) and you've lied in the past. Pls tell me if you've never done these two things in the past. How did I know? Through psychology my brother.

hopefulLandlord:


someone once told me such "Prophet knew many things about me he couldn't have known" story and I asked for the number of the prophet which she provided. I called the prophet on phone mimicking the voice of a female telling him I'm facing some challenges and I need some spiritual solution. he said I should come visit but I said I live in borno and its not only expensive but also difficult for me to come. I told him he should speak to god on my behalf and get word of knowledge. He told me he'll call me anytime from then when god speaks back. he finally called after 3 days and started saying a lot of things about me which are obviously wrong. I led him on as he kept guessing wrongly but kept pretending everything was true. for instance I got a pic of a random husband and wife pic from the internet and made it the WhatsApp DP of that number (a new number I was using for the first time). This man assumed I'm married and said my husband needs to change career as god is moving him to higher level and also prophesied into the lives of my "children in secondary school"

to cut the long story short I exposed the scammer for what he is to my friend. I recorded the calls and played it for her. instead of thanking me for a job well-done she got upset instead. She claimed the prophet knew I was lying which is why he also lied to me and it was the spirit of god that ordered the lie just like he did for Ahab's prophets in the BuyBull. She wanted to believe that man is genuine so badly that facts didn't matter

what most these prophets do is explained here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

HopefulLandlord:
to cut the long story short I exposed the scammer for what he is to my friend. I recorded the calls and played it for her. instead of thanking me for a job well-done she got upset instead. She claimed the prophet knew I was lying which is why he also lied to me and it was the spirit of god that ordered the lie just like he did for Ahab's prophets in the BuyBull. She wanted to believe that man is genuine so badly that facts didn't matter.

Butterflyleo:


You brought in science and scientists here when you spoke about facts and facts and facts are defined as a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence

Last time I checked, that is science for you. If you say scientists are not the authority to prove God then why are you asking for VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for God. Or do you not even know what you are saying when you ask for such?

Again you bring in the word FACT. Yet you want me not to link this to science. God never left you to decide if he exists or not. He exists ...simple. You are the one who chose to disbelieve that despite the many NATURAL proof of his creation.

Its not the power of any mind but a harsh reality in every day life.

Yet it is the duty of atheists to disprove the existence of God right and also to disprove that God created the world? Why did you take up the task if you felt there was really no need for that, going by your comment above? If you have no idea how the world was created then why do you go ahead and say God does not exist despite not being sure? Confused?

From my observation he is also waxing strong in your mind too for you to be always so desperate to disprove his existence even to yourself. Adds credence to God being hardwired into your DNA

I am also talking to you an atheist to show the falsehood in your disbelief. Also the fact that you keep talking about a God you claim does not exist shows how subconsciously real he still is to you.

The above statement was made long ago and shows that your likes have been around long before now yet with nothing to show nor lack any ability to make God disappear.

author=franky317 post=67049640]
I nevet had science in mind but if u think what i said automatically means i was talking about science, u can still answer tge question... is it the duty of scientists to prove to man or is it the duty of God to prove himself to man?

Are saying his existence or not is inconsequential? If Gid never left me to decide what exactly did he to? Is it necessary to him or not if i believe he exists or not?
How can i choose not to believe if he has revealed himself to me? How did u come to that conclusion?

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Why do u just like arguing for the sake of it? Power of the mind is one thing and harsh reality of life is another. Why are u arguing like we are comparing both? Cant the harsh reality of life make the mind act in a particular way?
What do u understand by the power of the mind?

This is how u argue round and round without saying anything...
God has been heard... how?
God has been seen ... where?
God has been felt... how
I am telling u God does not exist because u who also does not know God exists is telling me he exists? Are u seriously unaware of this?
I am tellling u because i doubt ur assumptive statement which lacks evidence.

0temSapien:
At hopefulLandlord, another thing they do in church is to share prayer request form. You write your prayer requests in them in January. Then in June, Pastor will start reading those prayer requests like this: there is a woman there who is having miscarriage, you have gone to so so and so for help but no help. There is a man there... Bla bla bla.
When you here your problem mentioned, you holla 'ope o! God has revealled my problem to the man of God," not knowing that it was the prayer request you wrote for them five months ago they have gone to study. That is the method Kumuyi and hundreds of them use in their churches.

Before we get started, can you explain to us what you mean by GOD? That word is ambiguous which mean different things to different people. In some cultures, something or someone can grow into what we call 'god' or gain divinity status. While also, some things just take upon the title 'god' for a reason best know to adherents. So God is just a title, tag or height. This brought us to another question....what makes god a god? To address your question, God does exist but it depends on what you call God. To some people, it is a river, rock, tree, energy or even human. Commonsense tells us that these things exist but the question if they are God or not is another thing.

From observation, most people tend to view God as ultimate creator of the universe. To some extent, without been sentimental, the creator of the universe exist. We may not accept some of the Gods' concepts but beyond every expression, imagination, abstraction and reasoning, there exist a creator God which I call 'The Cause'.

From a logical stance, nothing just happen without a trigger, without a cause, and without a push. The cause might not necessarily be intelligent or serve an purpose. However, there is always a cause which some people call God.

Let's take it from big bang. The explosion from the minute tiny dot didn't happen. The dot didn't just magically appear. Something would cause the explosion to happen. That thing is God, the creator God.

That cause if you bring it down to Yoruba spirituality is called Eledumare. I have tried to make this argument with my other moniker but it seems people do not really understand it too well. In Yoruba spirituality, there is little known about Eledumare. He/It does not have form, no human nature, and doesn't interfare with the world. What we know, certainly, is that He/It is the source of all things; norm and orderliness, law and nature as we generally understand. And the Orishas are the manifestation of Eledumare.

Butterflyleo:


You seem lost in your own argument. Science cannot prove or disprove God yet you keep asking for VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for Gods existence. God has already proven himself to man. Something you and the entire league of scientists who are atheists have been trying forever to disprove. I wonder why?

He already has revealed himself to you which is why you are without excuse and that was why I quoted Romans 1:20 to you

You seem lost. There can be no inferred meaning if there was no physical action to link it to.

Everything in life comes with a reward. This reality of life is independent of the mind. Our mind does not control it because it just is that way.

I know God exists and if you do not know or are not sure then why do you say He does not exist based on this ignorance? Science cannot prove God to you but can infer this to those who examine the evidence sincerely. But for those who wish not to then they are indeed without excuse.

[quote author=franky317 post=67050341]
How did God prove himself to man?

Romans 1:20

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

Sleep is regulated by two body systems: sleep/wake homeostasis and the circadian biological clock .

When we have been awake for a long period of time, sleep/wake homeostasis tells us that a need for sleep is accumulating and that it is time to sleep. It also helps us maintain enough sleep throughout the night to make up for the hours of being awake.
Our internal circadian biological clocks, on the other hand, regulate the timing of periods of sleepiness and wakefulness throughout the day.
The circadian biological clock is controlled by a part of the brain called the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus (SCN), a group of cells in the hypothalamus that respond to light and dark signals. From the optic nerve of the eye, light travels to the SCN, signaling the internal clock that it is time to be awake. The SCN signals to other parts of the brain that control hormones, body temperature and other functions that play a role in making us feel sleepy or awake.

In the mornings, with exposure to light, the SCN sends signals to raise body temperature and produce hormones like cortisol. The SCN also responds to light by delaying the release of other hormones like melatonin, which is associated with sleep onset and is produced when the eyes signal to the SCN that it is dark. Melatonin levels rise in the evening and stay elevated throughout the night, promoting sleep.

God did not reveal himself to me.. how dis he reveal himself to me?

In otherword... ur mind has not power?
What has rewards got to do with this?
The pwer of the mind i meant in my first statement only implies how man assumed God exists and believe he speaks, talk and will reward him aftet life. All these are all made up. No God has been seen, heard or felt... how then can he reward u after life. This is the power of the mind.

So if i have no prove of God i should accept ur statement that God exists without prove? If ur arguement was that God created only u, trust me, u will not get a single arguement from me

I know God exists and if you do not know or are not sure then why do you say He does not exist based on this ignorance? Science cannot prove God to you but can infer this to those who examine the evidence sincerely. But for those who wish not to then they are indeed without excuse.

hopefulLandlord:


Yes o! also information moves around a lot. You'll be surprised of the level of info you can get about someone on Social media. So many people have posted their entire life history on social media. you can see their brothers, sisters, extended family members, their jobs, wives, children, happy moments, sad moments, when their grandfather died etc and all these info can be used on such a person if they happen to come to the prophet for spiritual help and they're basically gotten for free and without sweats

hopefulLandlord:
Lmao! someone up there is trying hard to connect my story to Nairaland haha. Try harder

0temSapien:
Do you mean Samuel Ekwueme the scammer?

nwabekeyi:
My dear, any genetic biologist can create a creature but the problem is what kinda creature will you end up creating and again, there are strict lows barring them from doing such, for the sake of humanity and inteferring with nature...

Give me a suitable laboratory and ask me to make a living thing, I will do it, it's just all about creating a stabilized genetic sequence and expressing the genes but like I said, that might be detrimental to the existence of humanity.

And again, the concept of sweet and bitter fruit is explanable by the genetic characterized of the plants involved.

You eat plants, have you asked yourself why you are not made of plants?

johnydon22:
Humans have been doing this all the time. All the fruits you know of today were directly created due to the influence of humans. Bananas did not taste like they do now before, apples, oranges, strawberries, all these fruits are totally different and tastes different from their ancestors and this was because of humans and the factor of artificial selection.

This is also true for domesticated animals like cows, dogs and horses etc.

How so?

I'm pretty sure modern biotechnologies can print or grow organs in the lab.

What point is this supposed to make brother?

I disagree.

I also disagree. We understand oxygen well enough down to its atomic compositions.

This is also incorrect.

Tree augmented by soil nutrients.

Good point, could be compared to our solar panels today. Even though there are other likely alternatives.

How did you get to know this creator so well that you know the creator has a name?

Yes we can, even you can. Water is not a mystery.

This is not really a good argument brother

johnydon22:
The assumption is neither for me nor you, it is an implication of our premise. I have neither argued that God exists or not. My point is, if you are discussing a premise that posits God to do something, the fundamental assumption of that premise must be that God exists (this however have no weight whatsoever on the argument that God exists or not as a separate premise) Its sorely a logical implication. Try to calm down and learn, i am not here to argue that God exists.

Here again you are wrong, your assumption that there is no God negates the premise we were discussing, if we assume there is no God as regards the premise, the premise becomes useless and therefore we have no need to discuss it.

So your assumption that there is no God can be an implication of a different premise but for the premise in contention its of no consequence or relevant.

Not really. I really doubt you could win an argument against me if i argue that God exist, you wouldn't still if i argue that God don't.

So my side-discussion or reply was on this question, i just provided possible (speculative) but logical explanations on how it could be attainable using answers to similar question regarding the Big bang model.

Winning an argument does not necessary mean determining what is right. You can win an argument for or against God. it can go both way when it comes to winning an argument but we both know it can't go both in terms of what really is; its either God exists or not.

Should i be surprised you still don't understand this application?

Does scientific findings exclude religions from forming ideas from its basis?

When you say the universe started at the Big Bang, does it mean the universe started from a pre-existing material or from nothing? (it can only go one way)

its still amazes me how you fail to grasp that simple application, assume i was arguing for God - this is why i hinted you had no idea who you were arguing with.

Before the Big bang is a subject of speculation, so my speculations on possible explanations for "How God existed forever before creation" is built of the most common scientific explanations of Before the Big bang or an implication of extra-deminsionalism which however is still a scientific thesis.

Or maybe your analogy is totally lost to the premise in question.

johnydon22:
To that i say No.

To me, whatever exists even if its extra-deminsional that we cannot comprehend it, lacks visibility, exists outside our own space-time, is still part of an infinite whole, nature.

TayserMahiri:

Im not sure I will join you in this speculation. Physics itself is already struggling with the question about before the big bang. I would recommend that argument to a religious person so that they can torture themselves.

The problem with some ppl is they cant leave an unfilled gap. If there is a disturbing question like this one you want to answer it by whatever means even with the little knowledge we have.

Religious people are even worse they go filling those ones with God and forever. I'm quite comfortable in waiting for discovery. And quit misusing the word logic. If we used logic we would come to the conclusion that there is no God.

Precisely! You're trying to drag me by the nose to your corner. I already told you the premise is yours, to me its quite pointless, even if we engage I'll probably be ignoring you. Ever seen someone who has already done some calculations wrong and is continuing to explain what he is doing despite the fact that you already know he got it wrong a few steps back? Ye, thats precisely what is happening here!

So the two positions are equally valid?
God Exists - Because I believe so
and
God doesnt exist - Because there is no evidence ?

Logical By now you should have known the word logic and God dont rhyme.

It starts from the first page of the Bible.

But I get it, please go on with your premise but refer to my first response in this post! I'll ignore because the steps are wrong. Sounds like forgery.

Thats better. Your previous one was out !

The big bang has evidence, God existing forever is a belief. Those two things can only be FORCED to merge. They dont belong together unless proven otherwise and as always, by science.

of course not! But to be honest, considering the amount of confidence that oozes from religious texts and people, we would expect it to be the other way round. This God who knows everything should be intoxicating us with wisdom from his ancient books. We wouldnt be wasting time doing science, which itself has endured a great deal of oppression from God himself and his fans in the past, when God already knows everything. Why bother looking for cures to serious diseases when God knows the cures and is only hiding it under his wings?

Lets wait for science to answer that. Thats the magic! We can only argue about it but untill research finally finds out what that was, we will just be arguing. We are limited by a lot of stuff, not the least our short lifespan. Doesnt it shock you that religion cant answer such fundamento questions? With all the backup from the sky dude who knows everything?

Lol, God is really hanging on. The thing is, God himself is an unnecessary assumption.

At least begin by speculating what if anything preceded the big bang. God is an unnecessary baggage here when you havent even exhausted a prior condition. If you examine that scientific thesis, you'll learn there is no God in the equations/formulas.

No, my analogy is on point. Unless you point out the issue with it

Geofavor:
. Simple.

This, however, is equivocally contrasting to your first answer.
so in other words, for example, even if spirits, magic, witchcrafts, etc., exist, they are still part of nature; they're natural?
Is that what you were trying to say?

If so, it means you believe In the existence ghosts and the likes, but you consider them natural.

If I'm right, how would you define what supernatural is then? Because it seems we pretty much have different meanings of the word.

johnydon22:




I mean that whatsoever exist can be counted as part of an infinite whole nature. Whatever you choose to call them, however you choose to conceive them.

No it doesn't mean i believe in those things. it means that if anything exists then its natural.

So lets just say it bothers on IF.


That is the problem, i think supernatural is a nonsensical notion.

Geofavor:
You are not sure. Considering that you are an atheist, shouldn't you be assertive of your belief?

I mean, why didn't you just say:

[b]* Nothing of such exists

* supernatural is a nonsensical notion.

Gggg102:




chance means anything could happen.

if you were walking down the street and you met an old classmate you haven't heard from since your school days, would you say you intended to meet him?
no! you met by chance.
chance brought you to a favourable conclusion.

by chance, you were passing the same road as he. by chance, both of you met. you met accidentally. there was no deliberate effort into making you meet. it just happened.

same could be said of the origin of the universe. there could have been no deliberate effort into causing the Universe. it could have just happened accidentally by chance.

johnydon22:
Why would I be sure? Have I transversed the entirety of what is natural? Have I even perceived even a fraction of the truth that nature holds?
So how exactly can I make such arrogant remark even though on an uncertain standpoint with such certainty?

Yes. Whatever you think exist may or may not. But I simply think that whatever is, is part of nature. Maybe there are things much more than we can perceive or comprehend it doesn't make them to cease being part of nature.

E.G: Assuming there is an extra dimension more than this (this is permissible under physics) and you come in contact with a four dimensional being, you wouldn't even fathom or comprehend exactly what to think or even understand your own perception.
From your 3D perception, you wouldn't even perceive the entirety of a 4D being.

The wierdness of the part of it you perceive would contradict everything you know to be normal. You may then coin out words like "Supernatural" to discribe this strange new thing.

But fact is, its just nature but much more than the bit of nature you are accustomed to.

I hope you understand the way I see nature. To me its possibilities are endless