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If Nigeria Divide Today, Does Delta And Edo State Has A Place With Yoruba/igbo / Is Oba Of Benin The Paramount Traditional Ruler Of Niger Delta and Igbos? (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Igboid: 4:08pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Takeproft: Show me where I called anyone here "an idiot"? |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by IGBOPRINCE: 7:36pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Igboid:you re just too brilliant, very wise and very experienced. Respect... 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by bigfrancis21: 8:54pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
YourNemesis: You personally know that Igboid's assertion is true. No need feigning ignorance of the obvious. Slavery from the Bight of Benin may have started very early but the Yoruba presence became more obvious towards the ending of the slave trade or during the Oyo kindgom wars of the early to mid 1800s. In terms of numbers, the Kongo and Central Africa people were one of the highest number of slaves (millions of them) exported to the new world however you do not find much of their cultural legacies in the new world. In numerical figures, the number of Yoruba slaves that left Yoruba land were no more than 500,000. The statistics and evidence of Yoruba slave numbers have been discussed already in a previous thread on this website of which you are aware of. If you exclude the numbers that died during the rigorous slave shipping to South America, the Agudas and the Saros that returned to Africa, the Okun subset of Yorubas that left Yoruba land in slave ships destined for slavery but got intercepted by the British and were rerouted to and dumped in Freetown Sierra leone (these people never made it to South America in the first place), the actual number of Yorubas that settled in the new world would be between 300,000 to 400,000 out of the estimated 500,000 that left Yoruba land. As recently as 1860 to 1880, after slavery had been officially ended, Yoruba slaves were still arriving South America, with their ancestral connections and traditions still very fresh in their memories. These Yoruba slaves were mostly captives and spoils of the Oyo-Dahomey wars. For clearer emphasis, these people would be equivalent to our grandparents or greatgrandparents. Someone born in the 1880s was still alive as recently as 1960 or 1970. We have the case of where the entire Ketu village and their god (ososi/ochosi) were invaded and emptied completely by Dahomey women warriors and transported to South America in thousands as slaves. These slaves experienced much less cultural stripping and way more personal and religious freedom unlike their counterparts who arrived earlier. Freedoms such as freedom to speak your language freely, freedom to answer your African name without having it stripped of you and a foreign name imposed on you, freedom to walk around freely, freedom to practice your African religion and customs as you wish etc. Unlike slaves that arrived in the 1600s and 1700s (during the peak of slavery), who were forced to acculturate, punished for practicing any form of African culture or speaking their language, forced to learn English, Spanish, Portuguese etc., immediately christened foreign names such as John, James, Harding, etc. upon alighting from the slave ships, broken up and paired up with other tribes to break up any tribal cohesion etc., times were very favorable in the late 1800s and these late-arriving slaves, Yoruba slaves mostly, had it good. Thus it was very easy for them to remember home and return back home as they still clearly remembered where they came from. We have Ajayi Crowther who returned to Yoruba land only after a few years of staying in Sierra Leone. Also, around this same time Lagos had been established as a British colony and the Oba of Lagos had instructed all recently-exported Yoruba slaves to return home, thus we have the Agudas (returnees from Brazil) and Saros (returnees from Sierra Leone, for eg Desmond Elliot, Tiwa Savage etc) who settled in Lagos upon their return. Their case could be thought of as travelling abroad for visiting and returning after a few years. Arriving Yoruba slaves met creolized slaves and free men (local-born descendants or generations of long-dead african slaves who had very few direct remembrance of connection to Africa, except for stories told to them by their dead parents/grandparents). Yorubas and their religion were greatly appreciated and embraced by creolized slaves and freedmen because they served as a reconnection to mama Africa and their African roots. Now, given the very favorable times during which the Yoruba slaves arrived the new world, it is expected that the Yoruba language should have survived as a living language in South America till this day. By living language it means, one spoken regularly at home, in school, in the market place etc. As recently as 1910 and 1920 Olukumi was still spoken in Cuba or Brazil. The question we should be asking is, why did the language die a natural death? Why is it no longer spoken in South America as a native language till today? Instead the language has been reduced to a liturgical language used by Ifa priests during Ifa ceremonies, hardly understood by Ifa congregants, but mostly by the priests themselves, similar to how Latin is sometimes used for mass by the catholic church which 90% of Nigerian Catholics do not understand. In terms of numbers, Yoruba slaves were among the least sent to the new worlds but left the largest cultural imprint in South America. Ifa religion which originally started in Brazil and Cuba has spread to several other countries in South America, Central America and the United States. It is highly welcome as a reminder of their African roots, even though many or some of the adherents may not by genetically Yoruba by ancestry. As a religion, Ifa, which was originally limited to genetic lukumis as of the late 1800s, has today expanded to include any afro-descended person interested in being a member. 6 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by YourNemesis: 10:55pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
And how do you know the ethnic make up of slaves from the Bight of Benin before the 1800s or that Yoruba groups were not there? There are significant recorded Yoruba presence in places like Haiti, Louisiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique and other places well before the 1800s. Even if your assertion were true, it is on record as well, that Igbo slaves also kept on arriving into the Americas (although not the USAA) as late as the Yoruba kept arriving. Compare and contrast the cultural legacies of the late arrivals on both sides. Besides, Congo influences in the new world are very visible in the places were they concentrated. Palo Mayombe, Conga music, Zombies, Capoeira are all said to be Kongo legacies. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by IGBOPRINCE: 3:32pm On Apr 17, 2018 |
Cire80:am still reading Comments but this comment made me believe you're sick? Pls stop lying. Language indeed. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by bigfrancis21: 4:08am On Apr 18, 2018 |
YourNemesis:@bold 1) I never implied that Yoruba slaves were not exported before the 1800s, but rather their numbers were more substantial in the 1800s compared to the mid-late 1700s. The Oyo-Dahomey wars of the 1800s is the major causative factor that swelled the Yoruba slave population in the diaspora. I am very sure that you are familiar with image 1 attached below. YORUBA SLAVE NUMBERS EXPORTED FROM BIGHT OF BENIN FROM 1650 TO 1865 2) There was Yoruba presence pre-1800 in those places you mentioned but statistics show that they were hardly 'significant' until after the 1800s. Time after time and record after record, statistics all reveal the Yoruba becoming more prominent in the slave trade mostly in the 1800s - towards the end and after slavery ended. It is also on record that even after slavery ended, Yorubas kept arriving Haiti, not as slaves, but as indentured servants. Indentured servants often had way more rights than slaves did. 3) Those few things you mentioned as Congo influence are very minute compared to their much larger numbers taken. There is no gain-saying the fact that Yoruba cultural long-lasting legacies in the new world were as a result of time and changing circumstances. Many Afro-descended people clinging onto Yoruba culture nowadays are not necessarily of genetic Yoruba ancestry but embrace the religion as an African connection. You, very well, cannot dispute this fact. 2 Likes 1 Share
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Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by bigfrancis21: 4:23am On Apr 18, 2018 |
The image below confirms that proportion of Yoruba slave compared to the overall Bight of Benin slave exports was quite little (2% - 10%) between 1640 to 1740, even dropping to as low as 0% in the 1700s, then we begin to see slight increases from 16% in the 1750s to 53% in 1820s, to as high as 85% in the 1830s (once again coinciding with the period of Oyo-Dahomean wars) and dropping to 79% between 1840s and 1860s. 3 Likes 1 Share
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Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 11:44am On May 17, 2018 |
pazienza: Old thread bump. I just can’t help but ROFL at hardline Biafra nationalist claiming everything for himself. Tribes have their own strengths. I’m sure Redbone’s done more for Igbo unity than a fervent Nairaland warrior like you. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by pazienza(m): 12:46pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Probz: Goes to show how impervious to reasoning and common sense some people can be, if you had to produce this reply to justify a very wrong conclusion of Igbo culture being weaker than Yoruba culture, as ignorantly propagated by redbone, despite plethora of evidence produced by Bigfrancis and other posters here to explain the reasons for the seemingly dominance of Yoruba religion and cultural imprints in the Americas. I can't come online to boast of how much I had contributed to Ndiigbo, but I'm damn sure that people who believe Igbo culture is inferior to that of any group are completely incapable of contributing to Igbo uplifltment, for one can't offer what one lacks. 4 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 3:08pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
pazienza: Sometimes the best things in life need to hold onto certain primitive features. That’s something that’s directly opposed to advancement but that’s the point. Some latent Igbotic tendencies come to their fullest expression in the Yoruba. Definitely doesn’t mean the parent tribe’s behind on the whole. Just in certain areas. Igbo culture doesn’t need to be as advanced or sophisticated as Yoruba culture because we’re not as deeply rooted in culture as a people and that’s because we don’t need to be. Dynamism and conservation are two opposed qualities meant for two different people. Parralels, equivalents. One nation can’t have it all. |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by ewa26: 3:38pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
pazienza:hon, is there a different way in which the igbo and Yoruba tribes cook jellof rice, which one sweet pass pls |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by pazienza(m): 4:31pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Probz: You are not making any sense, I hope you know that, right? There is nothing whatsoever to prove Yoruba culture being more sophisticated or advanced than those of Ndiigbo, if you hold unto this opinion, then by everymeans do, but don't for once think they could pass for anything other than ignorance driven jaundiced opinion and don't pretend to speak for Ndiigbo, for no true Igbo man holds such opinion. Bigfrancis had already explained why Yoruba culture survived in Americas, While in contrast, the Igbo, Kongo, Malian, etc cultures barely survived, now you can go on to continue believing that this happened due to phantom sophistication and superiority of Yoruba culture that you can't prove, or you can simply accept the logical and rational explanations Bigfrancis21 offered. 4 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 4:39pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
pazienza: Yoruba culture is more sophisticated and advanced than Igbo culture because Yoruba people are more deeply rooted in culture. Igbos are more dynamic. Fact. End. I know a guy like you won’t agree but I made a plain point up there. Igbo world influence is mirrored across the globe in many different ways. Not in direct culture. You can carry on being the fanatical nationalist that you are and claiming everything for yourself or you can look at it from another perspective and admit that Igbo doesn’t need to have the most influential or refined direct culture to be the progenitor of world civilisation as a whole. German, Jewish, Indian, Italian and especially Yoruba cultures are direct expressions of Igbo in more ways than someone like you could imagine. Igbo mustn’t be the obvious dominant black cultural force in the diaspora for that to happen. Our cultural influence is more subtle. |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Nobody: 4:45pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Wulfruna:do you have your facts |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Nobody: 4:47pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Probz:to me you hadn't really made any point. 1 Like |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 4:48pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Eberejesus111: This thing’s not for you. |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 4:52pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Igbo culture at base level is primitive. And that’s exacrly what makes the Igbo nation such a great one. That’s not something you’ll find out by current empirical research. You’ve got to be a certain type of person to understand certain things about Igbo and wider world civilisation and culture. You definitely won’t see it with overly objective-lens. |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Nobody: 4:56pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
bigfrancis21:Highly detailed and succint 1 Like |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by pazienza(m): 4:59pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Probz: Since we had eviscerated the very idea that the survival of Yoruba culture in the new world was as a result of the sophistication or superiority of their culture. Please, can you list concrete reasons and examples to prove Yoruba culture sophistication over the Igbo. Isn't it ironic that in an era when people are claiming that they were Binis who mere interactions with Igbo people resulted in them assimilating Igbo culture in terms of Language, Market days, ancestral god's, and names, some one like you that support such views would still come forward to project the jaundiced opinion that a culture capable of robbing its neighbors of their own natural language and ways of life, without use of force or coercion, is an inferior culture? You need to keep your thoughts and narratives straight, bro. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Nobody: 4:59pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
: Probz:Really... OK then... But truly you made no point. 1 Like |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 5:00pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
pazienza: I could go long and deep into it but then I remembered this is paziena we’re talking about. No point. 1 Like |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 5:02pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Eberejesus111: Good thing then that I weren’t talking to you. 1 Like |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 5:04pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
The Igbo race show their world superiority in other ways than direct culture. I’ll end it there. |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by pazienza(m): 5:19pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Probz: Yet we have many people who claimed to be originally Igala, Bini, Chinese, Japanese , who had all been culturally influenced by Ndiigbo to jettison their supposedly sophisticated cultures, for a supposedly primitive Igbo One. What a paradox. Anakogheli. 3 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 5:22pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
pazienza: You’re too ... paziena to see what I’m saying. That’s alright. Anyone who wants to listen will listen. No need to insult when someone says something beyond your mega-nationalistic understanding. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Nobody: 5:22pm On Jul 04, 2018 |
Read all your comments, and I must say I'm the most impressed... Well let me bring it down to you, for the Delta Igbos and River Igbos, these sort of groups were primarily Igbos, but had denied their identities based on the onset of the civil war and it's aftermaths. A case study: Rivers igbo, these groups had started denying their cultural names, changing it to English or German names, just to bring home their point, and had also denied any cultural attributes with the Igbos, based on the juicy returns the government of that period would want to give them, so in basic terms "they had sold their identity for a morsel of meat(gains)"... Anioma/Anoicha likewise. And as for the prevalence of the said "Yoruba culture having prevalence in the Americas", this could be a mockery,because most African descents in landing in the Americas had been stripped off their culture, and identity, and as for the Igbos, if you could research in history, you'll found out that the Igbos being resisting, and also industrious (had used this kind of trade as a means of making wealth) resisting because the colonist couldn't impose their rules on them, they were tiring to govern, and industrious because there was a demand, and the Igbos had to make a supply in that period. This two criteria, had brought in an overlap of igbo slaves in the Americas and also stripping of identities by their colonist. Making what we call Creoles(making British men out of black individuals). The Yorubas came at a latter period, around the 1800's when slavery was being abolished and sentiments of slave emancipation was on the way. In that period, the yorubas, brought their folklore, and traditional practices, in which most slave workers accepted because of its dejavu effects and African culture remembrance. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 9:41pm On Jul 22, 2018 |
Eberejesus111: Meanwhile I’m up there trying to show Igbo world superiority part of which is a compensatation of an advanced direct culture and paziena says anything that isn’t 100% gleaming with ego boosts to be an insult to the Igbo nation because he’s such a fervent nationalist. Zenith of maturity. Mega-nationalistic idiot. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Nzita: 3:54am On Jul 23, 2018 |
@Bigfrancis You said that "... While in contrast, the Igbo, Kongo, Malian, etc cultures barely survived.." I'm not sure if you really are aware of how your statement is totally wrong about the Kongo in the USA, Central America, the Caribbean and South America including in Africa. Kongo's cultural impact (art, music, dance, religious) and political impact is very visible in the Americas and Caribbean. Many of the carryover effects were wrongly attributed to YORUBA culture. Proof of Kongo's culture in the USA (2013-2015) [1] Princeton University Art Museum KONGO across the Waters Exhibition October 25, 2014 – January 25, 2015 http://artmuseum.princeton.edu/art/exhibitions/1619 The second paragraph of the press release says: “Kongo across the Waters examines 500 years of cultural exchange between the Kongo, Europe, and the United States, showing the rise of Kongo as a major Atlantic presence and the transmission of Kongo culture through the transatlantic slave trade into American art."[/color] [ 2 ] Harn Museum examines cultural legacy of Kongo kingdom (University of Florida) http://news.ufl.edu/archive/2013/10/harn-museum-examines-cultural-legacy-of-kongo-kingdom.php [3] Kongo across the Waters A National Legacy with Special Hampton Connections Mary Lou Hultgren http://iraaa.museum.hamptonu.edu/page/Kongo-across-the-Waters [4] Introduction: Kongo Atlantic Dialogues by ROBIN POYNOR, SUSAN COOKSEY and CARLEE FORBES African Studies Quarterly | Volume 15, Issue 3 | June 2015 Google this PDF Article Explore these 4 references for the time being. |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by bigfrancis21: 10:23am On Jul 23, 2018 |
Nzita: I appreciate you taking out the time to compile these links to support your view which I did go through but what you sent me are simply congolese art works on display in museums and do not in any way show how these are 'widely felt' kongolese slavery legacies. The Yoruba slave impact, for example, can be felt in the religion they left behind. The Igbo slave impact can be felt linguistically in certain words used in the Creole languages spoken in Central America ('una', 'red bone', etc.) or in place names such as Ibo's landing in Georgia etc. The Igbo-derived 'una',' wunna', or even 'unu' from the Igbo 'unu' (means you in plural form) is widely used among all English-based creoles spoken in former English slave colonies and in several African countries that speak Pidgin such as Nigeria, Cameroon, Sierra Leone, Ghana etc. I would need you to come up with tangible cultural or linguistic evidence like this left behind by the Kongolese people. Caribbean English is a broad term for the dialects of the English language spoken in the Caribbean and Liberia, most countries on the Caribbean coast of Central America, and Guyana and Suriname on the coast of South America. Caribbean English is influenced by the English-based Creole varieties spoken in the region, but they are not the same. In the Caribbean, there is a great deal of variation in the way English is spoken. Scholars generally agree that although the dialects themselves vary significantly in each of these countries, they primarily have roots in British English and West African languages. Overview The English in daily use in the Caribbean include a different set of pronouns, typically, me, meh, or mi, you, yuh, he, she, it, we, wi or alawe, wunna or unu, and dem or day. I, mi, my, he, she, ih, it, we, wi or alawe, allayu or unu, and dem, den, deh for "them" with Central Americans. Other features: Consonant changes like h-dropping or th-stopping are common. Some might be "sing-songish": Tri ...more...https://www.revolvy.com/page/African%252DAmerican-Vernacular-English |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by OlaoChi: 2:46pm On Jul 23, 2018 |
If slave owners accepted yoruba traditions there wouldn't have been any need for syncretism with catholism...and even in syncretism the original ideas would have been totally abandoned. However that's not the case. They were "catholics" to the slave masters in public but yoruba traditionalists in the closet. Let's face it. It is the strong will of the Yoruba slaves in preserving their traditions. Simple as that There is even a place called Abeokuta in Jamaica 1 Like |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Probz(m): 4:21am On Dec 15, 2018 |
danye8: Enuani’s a bona-fide Igbo dialect. That’s not something that’s up for discussion. 2 Likes |
Re: Delta (and Rivers) Igbos by Donarozzi: 11:46pm On Oct 21, 2020 |
bigfrancis21: Of the many clans that make up the Ika, it appears that Agbor and Owa show a deeper level of Edo migrants, though the number of Igbo indigenes still predominates. It may be estimated that Agbor and Owa are 70% Igbo, while the rest of Ika is about 90% Igbo. So, generally, Ika is more than 80% Igbo. 3 Likes |
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