vaxx:
This is clearly a thread that address African spirituality and not church or Christianity and i will appreciate it if you treat it that way.

Another disappointing comment.
I was only using Christianity in place of African religion. Or are you implying that traditionalist too dont wait for God to rain money from the sky? Isnt that why traditionalist visit babalawos? Isnt that why they engage in animal and human sacrifice? Because God can suddenly put money in a calabash, or make a sacrificial victim vomit money?

kkins25:
Another disappointing comment.
I was only using Christianity in place of African religion. Or are you implying that traditionalist too dont wait for God to rain money from the sky? Isnt that why traditionalist visit babalawos? Isnt that why they engage in animal and human sacrifice? Because God can suddenly put money in a calabash, or make a sacrificial victim vomit money?

Your comment is more frustrating than I thought. None of my writeup here suggest that african spirituality is a religion that teaches is adherent to be dependable. Therefore I consider your post as those I labell as strawmen conclusion.


My write up was talking about human instinct and decision making as this are the major foundation of African spirituality and not simply mysticism only.

Surely we are caught in a chaotic moment sometime where we don't know what to do. But remember that despite whatever chaos you face, there are still decisions to be made. And this is what African spirituality philosophy entails as that is the symbolical representation of eshu .And not to be dependant.

So If you drop the ball of decision-making, and allow babalawo to do it for You. You will be enslaved and subjugated, because you have neglect the philosophy of eshu which is making decisions regularly.

.So Control your path by controlling your decisions. This is how you venerate Eshu, deity of the crossroad.

But since Most mental-slaves always excuse this and say that they are not in control of their decisions. But you are. If you look deeper, you will see that even in oppression, you still have choices. You might not like the choice that will lead to success because it is too difficult, and this is the reason some take the easier choice (usually handed to them by the babalawo or priest tjey visit and they pretend they had no choice.

No matter how difficuilt it might be .choices are always available. If you don't see them that is because you are blind to difficult choices and only can see the easy ones. Eshu cannot be taken away by any oppressor; Eshu is always at the crossroads of choice.


So in summary African spirituality is about practicality in line with mysticism.

Omo ORUNMILA(the child of ORUNMILA) is full of wisdom and not a babalawo subject.

vaxx:
slavery was already part of African system. It was already an institution. So nothing innocent about it.

Yes but it's a different case when the white colonials came and the gods were impotent to do anything.

Africa was grossly segmented into millions of micro-kingdoms that lived in constant hostility with each other. If a kingdom conquered another it could then sell away its populace into slavery and occupy the land. And give the thanks to the gods. So slavery is a choice that was promoted by Africans themselves. And nothing was attached to it like evil. In fact it's a way of showing your wealthy status and whom the gods favour. We have been selling and trading ourselves.

And likewise most of slave captured were either the prisoners of war and community outcasts like murderers, accursed persons and deviants. In igbo It is called osu. Which means it is part of our judiciary systems. Therefore it would have been a futile to fight back since capture rarely occurred en masse.

Most slaves captured in African kingdoms or tribe were results of tribal or clan wars(like you said) and the gods were behind them in the wars to victory.

The gods were always with the soldiers in the war, they make use of the gods power(juju) to protect and defend themselves.

The Gods are said to strike and inform people about bad, unjust thing in the kingdom but suddenly the gods didn't do anything about the so-called chief, monarchs selling people as slaves to the foreigners, the gods believed by these prisoners are impotent to help them.

Don't blame the people, they are not perfect, blame the Gods for thier failures to protect thier people, and the absurd part is the Gods fail to see that doing nothing to protect it people will make the people abadon them, and it actually happened!

Someone like ScienceWatch has abadon the Gods to a foreign deity.

gods are not some extra being sitting in the sky or a ghost like creature. It is the power of olodumare living within you. So when you disallow this power to manifest in your life . You give chance to external agent to subjugate you.

Oga, what's the purpose of Olodumare if he's the supreme God? Does he depends on humans before taking actions?

Now my question?
Why do we still choose to be a slave now. Especially now that some us have been emacipated?

Because the African Gods failed the people.

This the negative consequences, many Africans have abadon the Gods.

I am sure the name Martins is a Europoid name and this are the traditional name of the people who raped and enslaved your ancestors. Why do we actually still carry the slave-branding of our rapist slave master and then pass it on to our children!!! If that's not slave behavior what is? Should we still blame the gods here.

Nearly all Blacks today still chose to keep the culture of the people who raped and enslaved thier ancestors. We celebrate it with glory. No one is more obsessed with European luxuries than Blacks. If that is not slavery , what it is. Should we still blame the gods here.


I sometime don't know how you guys think.....

You didn't see the absurdity in your argument all along.

Many blacks have abadon your Gods and even despise them, if the Gods had protect the people from the colonials, we would still believe in the Gods.

tintingz:
Yes but it's a different case when the white colonials came and the gods were impotent to do anything.

This is false. Nothing make it difference. HUMAN trade was consider a legitimate business not only among the monarchs and chief but with the wealthy individuals in the community. The white came only to consolidate it. You lacks Yoruba understanding of gods even when I have simplify it in my previous post above.Anyway I will try to correct you again below.

Most slaves captured in African kingdoms or tribe were results of tribal or clan wars(like you said) and the gods were behind them in the wars to victory.

And not only that ,There is higher number in volumes of slaves prisoners sold and those who were caught by the law due to one crime or the others.

The gods were always with the soldiers in the war, they make use of the gods power(juju) to protect and defend themselves

.This post shows that you are just debating unneccasry. Debate objectively friend. War is always won by who prepared most in terms of techinicallity and in terms of military troops. That is the way oyo empire was able to submerge most of the Yoruba kingdom even down to dahomey present day Benin republic..

The Gods are said to strike and inform people about bad, unjust thing in the kingdom but suddenly the gods didn't do anything about the so-called chief, monarchs selling people as slaves to the foreigners, the gods believed by these prisoners are impotent to help them

Yes africans understand that they are nothing without their ancestors as it is a foundation and that is the reason they pointed to the orisha as the way of life. But it will be ignorance of you to be mistaken the European and African definition of god as the same. It is only for the European that subscribe that God is a separate being from human beings. In African culture, we are literally gods. Therefore, to just "believe in yourself" and "believe in god" is the same thing in Indigenous African theology. As I state clearly , the slave trade was not a strange idea before the white came.it was already a lucrative business that is booming while the white only came to consolidate it. And the preference of the individual in afica not to demonstrate against it(disunity) that make the slave trade a continuous success even till today. Some of us are still enslaved. Eshu already give a guideline for this which people neglect. "" continuous discion making""

Don't blame the people, they are not perfect, blame the Gods for thier failures to protect thier people, and the absurd part is the Gods fail to see that doing nothing to protect it people will make the people abadon them, and it actually happened!

You are still repeating your lack of understanding as usual. Gods are not sepreate beings sitting somewhere in the sky, gods is the power of olodumare living with you and the inability not to use it after it has been giving to you willingly is not the faults of the Gods but rather your own faults. EVEN after 400 years to the slavery period. No single African country has a good capability to manufacture rocket launcher or can simply build sophisticated Ak47. We mostly buy this with natural resources. Similar to what we do in the past by exchanging a whole human for a single pistol. Do you still blame the gods on our fail attempt to breaks this gun down and build a better version of our own. While this means we can still be enslaved again thru the same weapons.

Someone like ScienceWatch has abadon the Gods to a foreign deity

This is Strawman argument. What brought the moniker to the point of discussion. You could have simply go straight to your point..

Oga, what's the purpose of Olodumare if he's the supreme God? Does he depends on humans before taking actions?

This is what I told Frank when he ask this goal post shifting question. I told him to create a thread on it and invite me. Let me remind you ...the purpose of this thread is where was orisha/olodumare during slavers and not what is the purpose of olodumare. However I will help you out of the ignorance you found yourself.tying to compare the europoid God understanding with Yoruba race is purely a poor attempt. In ifa spirituality. Olodumare is not some ghost living far off in the clouds, waiting to greet us at your death . Olodumare lives through our godly actions, through the holding of hands and power of encouraging words. And it is not to be found in disunity

In short olodumare is an experience. That is how olodumare is known to be real; we experience God through one another. For example . I experience Emi, the breath of life, through you.

Because the African Gods failed the people.

This the negative consequences, many Africans have abadon the Gods.

No because they fail to actualize the power of the gods living in them . As it can be seen today . EVEN after the emancipation. Yet we are still where' we are after 400 years of slavery. Some of is a now willing to be slaved . It is choice you made.

You didn't see the absurdity in your argument all along.

I guess your lack of understanding make you posit a very bad argument. Instead of you asking aquestion , you grab at the Strawman. Anyway the question I asked marthins above is still there wating to be answer. In summary , Should we still blame the. Gods for inability to use our precious given talents. ": HUMAN instinct""?

Many blacks have abadon your Gods and even despise them, if the Gods had protect the people from the colonials, we would still believe in the Gods.

A slave is not simply someone with chains and forced to do labor. A slave is also taken "cared" for by their enslaver, at least enough for them to survive and conduct the slave labor. A slave's food, clothing, and shelter, were all provided for by the "master." As a result, while a slave knows how to take care of his/her master, a slave has no experience taking full responsibility for their own needs. This is the key to maintaining his enslavement.

And this is why so many Black people follow religions that mimic the slave-master relationship between devotee and priest. They want a religion where they are not responsible for themselves. For example in christianity, you are a mindless sheep following a shepherd who is flocking you for meat. In Islam, you are a "slave of Allah." In IFA:Spirituality, Olodumare gives us the ase (divine power to manifest) to achieve all ambitions. It is up to us to cultivate the ase via the Orisa within. An inability no to.do so .is not on.the shoulder of the gods but your lack of irresponsibility.

We are NOT a sheep for Olodumare like the Christian is a sheep for Jesus. And neither are we a slave of Olodumare like the Muslim is a slave to Allah. And neither are we alone like the athiest .

We are a microcosm of the macrocosm that IS Olodumaré, the Supreme Being.

vaxx:
This is false. Nothing make it difference. HUMAN trade was consider a legitimate business not only among the monarchs and chief but with the wealthy individuals in the community. The white came only to consolidate it. You lacks Yoruba understanding of gods even when I have simplify it in my previous post above.Anyway I will try to correct you again below.

In a nutshell the gods approved slavery?

The point I'm making is the black slaves that were sold by the wealthy people, aren't they believers in the gods, I thought the gods were very effective?

No wonder juju is useless.

And not only that ,There is higher number in volumes of slaves prisoners sold and those who were caught by the law due to one crime or the others.

What about Africans in general taken as slaves?

I still find it ridiculous to think our forefathers didn't do anything to protect thier lands from the white colonials.

.This post shows that you are just debating unneccasry. Debate objectively friend. War is always won by who prepared most in terms of techinicallity and in terms of military troops. That is the way oyo empire was able to submerge most of the Yoruba kingdom even down to dahomey present day Benin republic..

For you to say war is mostly in terms of technicality shows juju is useless!

Just accept it and move on

Yes africans understand that they are nothing without their ancestors as it is a foundation and that is they the reason they pointed to the orisha as the way of life. But it will be ignorance of you to be mistaken the European and African definition of god as the same. It is only for the European that subscribe that God is a separate being from human beings. In African culture, we are literally gods. Therefore, to just "believe in yourself" and "believe in god" is the same thing in Indigenous African theology. As I state clearly , the slave trade was not a strange idea before the white came.it was already a lucrative business that is booming while the white only came to consolidate it. And the preference of the individual in afica not to demonstrate against it(disunity) that make the slave trade a continuous success even till today. Some of us are still enslaved. Eshu already give a guideline for this which people neglect. "" continuous discion making""

I'm not talking about the practice of slaves trade, I'm talking how the gods were impotent and juju is useless.

Just accept this instead of giving ridiculous excuses.

You are still repeating your lack of understanding as usual. Gods are not sepreate beings sitting somewhere in the sky, gods is the power of olodumare living with you and the inability not to use it after it has been giving to you willingly is not the faults of the Gods but rather your own faults. EVEN after 400 years to the slavery period. No single African country has a good capability to manufacture rocket launcher or can simply build sophisticated Ak47. We mostly buy this with natural resources. Similar to what we do in the past by exchanging a whole human for a single pistol. Do you still blame the gods on our fail attempt to breaks this gun down and build a better version of our own. While this means we can still be enslaved again thru the same weapons.

Olodumare has no spiritual protection purpose, it's just a figurehead deity to put fear on ignorant people.

This is Strawman argument. What brought the moniker to the point of discussion. You could have simply go straight to your point..

Many people have abadon the African Gods to a foreign God, it is fact.

This is what I told Frank when he ask this goal post shifting question. I told him to create a thread on it and invite me. Let me remind you ...the purpose of this thread is where was orisha/olodumare during slavers and not what is the purpose of olodumare. However I will help you out of the ignorance you found yourself.tying to compare the europoid God understanding with Yoruba race is purely a poor attempt. In ifa spirituality. Olodumare is not some ghost living far off in the clouds, waiting to greet us at your death . Olodumare lives through our godly actions, through the holding of hands and power of encouraging words. And it is not to be found in disunity

Wether Olodumare reside in the sky or outside the universe or inside your head, the point is that, that God didn't do anything, even when the good people are crying for help.

In short olodumare is an experience. That is how olodumare is known to be real; we experience God through one another. For example . I experience Emi, the breath of life, through you.

Olodumare is an experience. Ok

No because they fail to actualize the power of the gods living in them . As it can be seen today . EVEN after the emancipation. Yet we are still where' we are after 400 years of slavery. Some of is a now willing to be slaved . It is choice you made.

The primary cause was the Gods didn't do anything to protect it people.

I even have more sense of protection than the Gods.

I guess your lack of understanding make you posit a very bad argument. Instead of you asking aquestion , you grab at the Strawman. Anyway the question I asked marthins above is still there wating to be answer. In summary , Should we still blame the. Gods for inability to use our precious given talents. ": HUMAN instinct""?

The question is what makes you think our forefathers didn't do anything?

The more you argue about this the more you make your Gods impotent.

A slave is not simply someone with chains and forced to do labor. A slave is also taken "cared" for by their enslaver, at least enough for them to survive and conduct the slave labor. A slave's food, clothing, and shelter, were all provided for by the "master." As a result, while a slave knows how to take care of his/her master, a slave has no experience taking full responsibility for their own needs. This is the key to maintaining his enslavement.

So?

AND this is why so many Black people follow religions that mimic the slave-master relationship between devotee and priest. They want a religion where they are not responsible for themselves. For example in christianity, you are a mindless sheep following a shepherd who is flocking you for meat. In Islam, you are a "slave of Allah." In IFA:Spirituality, Olodumare gives us the ase (divine power to manifest) to achieve all ambitions. It is up to us to cultivate the ase via the Orisa within. An inability no to.do so .is not on.the shoulder of the gods but your lack of irresponsibility.

The blacks had no choice when the colonials came, either they accept the white culture or suffer and die.

We are NOT a sheep for Olodumare like the Christian is a sheep for Jesus. And neither are we a slave of Olodumare like the Muslim is a slave to Allah. And neither are we alone like the athiest .

Who were now the slaves?

We are a microcosm of the macrocosm that IS Olodumaré, the Supreme Being.

Lol, ok. Mr microcosm.

I find this funny vaxx. You should read through what you write and consider how a reader might understand what you've written.

vaxx:
Do you still blame the gods on our fail attempt to breaks this gun down and build a better version of our own.

Take the above, a pertinent question. And now read the response to it below.

vaxx:
Gods are not sepreate beings sitting somewhere in the sky, gods is the power of olodumare living with you and the inability not to use it after it has been giving to you willingly is not the faults of the Gods but rather your own faults.

vaxx:
Olodumare is not some ghost living far off in the clouds, waiting to greet us at your death . Olodumare lives through our godly actions, through the holding of hands and power of encouraging words. And it is not to be found in disunity

vaxx:
In African culture, we are literally gods. Therefore, to just "believe in yourself" and "believe in god" is the same thing in Indigenous African theology.

We agreed, as you've clearly stated in the extracts above that as far as Olodumare is concerned, that "we are the gods". So, in response to your question:

vaxx:
Do you still blame the gods on our fail attempt to breaks this gun down and build a better version of our own.

What difference does it make whether I blame the person or his Olodumare? Are they not one and the same person according to you? And if we, or us through our Olodumare, had done the following,

vaxx:
War is always won by who prepared most in terms of techinicallity and in terms of military troops. That is the way oyo empire was able to submerge most of the Yoruba kingdom even down to dahomey present day Benin republic..

Surely we wouldn't have been enslaved! But because we failed to:

vaxx:
fail to actualize the power of the gods living in them . As it can be seen today . EVEN after the emancipation. Yet we are still where' we are after 400 years of slavery. Some of is a now willing to be slaved . It is choice you made.

The whole idea of projecting an aspect of oneself unto an entity called Olodumare, Spirit, Chi, Psyche, can be seen to not be unique in Yoruba. The Igbos would go as far to say, "if I say 'yes', and my Chi says 'no', I would get another Chi!", a clear recognition of who is in charge here! It is called the conscious, and the unconscious, mind, vaxx. The you inside of you!

As to the following,

vaxx:
We are NOT a sheep for Olodumare like the Christian is a sheep for Jesus. And neither are we a slave of Olodumare like the Muslim is a slave to Allah. And neither are we alone like the athiest .

We are a microcosm of the macrocosm that IS Olodumaré, the Supreme Being.

The atheist knows there is a consciousness and an unconsciousness to the mind. The atheist just knows who they belong to. The atheist goes further by not separating them from their own person. My conscious mind, and my unconscious mind, and hence my Olodumare, as you have used it above is all the same me. So if either is stupid enough to allow me to be enslaved, you can blame me, or my Olodumare, its the same, me, is my point here!

tintingz:


The blacks had no choice when the colonials came, either they accept the white culture or suffer and die.

If vaxx could, he'd agree that we, as ourselves, or as our individual Olodumares, were not smart enough, to resist slavery or colonialisation. I would argue that our Olodumare, and ourselves, knowing what was better for us, and how much superior these new comers were to Olodumare and ourselves (which is the same person, mind) advised us (or ministered to us) to abandon our ancient beliefs and understandings and adopt this superior western culture, or suffer and die! It's after all obvious 3 is greater than 2. It probably figured that a person in trinity is greater than a person in duality.

budaatum:
I find this funny vaxx. You should read through what you write and consider how a reader might understand what you've written.


Take the above, a pertinent question. And now read the response to it below.



We agreed, as you've clearly stated in the extracts above that as far as Olodumare is concerned, that "we are the gods". So, in response to your question:

What difference does it make whether I blame the person or his Olodumare? Are they not one and the same person according to you? And if we, or us through our Olodumare, had done the following,

Surely we wouldn't have been enslaved! But because we failed to:


The whole idea of projecting an aspect of oneself unto an entity called Olodumare, Spirit, Chi, Psyche, can be seen to not be unique in Yoruba. The Igbos would go as far to say, "if I say 'yes', and my Chi says 'no', I would get another Chi!", a clear recognition of who is in charge here! It is called the conscious, and the unconscious, mind, vaxx. The you inside of you!

As to the following,


The atheist knows there is a consciousness and an unconsciousness to the mind. The atheist just knows who they belong to. The atheist goes further by not separating them from their own person. My conscious mind, and my unconscious mind, and hence my Olodumare, as you have used it above is all the same me. So if either is stupid enough to allow me to be enslaved, you can blame me, or my Olodumare, its the same, me, is my point here!

It mean you are not yet evolve to understand olodumare ""God"" in Ifa spirituality..it means Everything that you can sense and yet not sense is an expression of God, The expression " he is there yet you don't see him"

The basic element of GOD is this...

- God is ‘the happening’ itself!
- God is ‘the Truth’ which is always happening
- God is there, never happened.

Therefore God is source of every creation, when you see man, you just seen his element, when you see tree, you just seen his element, when you rock etc, you are seeing his element.


When it come to position of consciousness.not all atheist will agree with you so it will be clever of you to withdraw your generalization.

Some take it as illusion and some take it as a figment of our own imagination while some represent it clearly with theistic perspective. It all depends on which category you fall into.

Ifa spirituality never seperate olodumare from us. Ire o

So the question you position above. Why do we fail to actualize the power of olodumare living within us.

tintingz:
In a nutshell the gods approved slavery?

The point I'm making is the black slaves that were sold by the wealthy people, aren't they believers in the gods, I thought the gods were very effective?

No wonder juju is useless.


What about Africans in general taken as slaves?

I still find it ridiculous to think our forefathers didn't do anything to protect thier lands from the white colonials.

For you to say war is mostly in terms of technicality shows juju is useless!

Just accept it and move on


I'm not talking about the practice of slaves trade, I'm talking how the gods were impotent and juju is useless.

Just accept this instead of giving ridiculous excuses.

Olodumare has no spiritual protection purpose, it's just a figurehead deity to put fear on ignorant people.

Many people have abadon the African Gods to a foreign God, it is fact.

Wether Olodumare reside in the sky or outside the universe or inside your head, the point is that, that God didn't do anything, even when the good people are crying for help.

Olodumare is an experience. Ok

The primary cause was the Gods didn't do anything to protect it people.

I even have more sense of protection than the Gods.

The question is what makes you think our forefathers didn't do anything?

The more you argue about this the more you make your Gods impotent.

So?

The blacks had no choice when the colonials came, either they accept the white culture or suffer and die.

Who were now the slaves?

Lol, ok. Mr microcosm.

i will reply you again when I begin to sense a demonstration of good understanding of the subject matter in your writing and not the usual goal post or pseudologic gabbage to pass a point......i may not respond to you till then.


It takes stress replying gibberish. Especially when there is no single attempt to see your own flaws or correct it ...

vaxx:
i will reply you again when I begin to sense a demonstration of good understanding of the subject matter in your writing and not the usual goal post or pseudologic gabbage to pass a point......i may not respond to you till then.


It takes stress replying gibberish. Especially when there is no single attempt to see your own flaws or correct it ...

Lol, ok.

budaatum:

If vaxx could, he'd agree that we, as ourselves, or as our individual Olodumares, were not smart enough, to resist slavery or colonialisation. I would argue that our Olodumare, and ourselves, knowing what was better for us, and how much superior these new comers were to Olodumare and ourselves (which is the same person, mind) advised us (or ministered to us) to abandon our ancient beliefs and understandings and adopt this superior western culture, or suffer and die! It's after all obvious 3 is greater than 2. It probably figured that a person in trinity is greater than a person in duality.

What vaxx don't know is that he has limited his Gods to the point that they are useless.

tintingz:
What vaxx don't know is that he has limited his Gods to the point that they are useless.

it is because you lack proper understanding of what gods is in ifa spirituality even after correcting you. You still grab at Strawman.

vaxx:
it is because you lack proper understanding of what gods is in ifa spirituality even after correcting you. You still grab at Strawman.

Ok, since you have ifa knowledge, what do you suggest the people should have done for the gods to protect them?

kkins25:
Another disappointing comment.
I was only using Christianity in place of African religion. Or are you implying that traditionalist too dont wait for God to rain money from the sky? Isnt that why traditionalist visit babalawos? Isnt that why they engage in animal and human sacrifice? Because God can suddenly put money in a calabash, or make a sacrificial victim vomit money?

He was perfectly dishonest with his reply. U will see him hobnobbing with sciencewatch, a Christian, who has a different view on the matter, but as long as both call and accept the word God, they are OK and friends. But what is the difference between the two? Both will say nothing but will quickly differentiate the two when u bring in an example from either side.

Vaxx, I will take u seriously the u come out open on what u think about christian belief... Do u think they are slaves to the white?
U asked Martin why he chose to be a slave by answer a white name but fail to ask sciencewatch why he chose to be a slave by following a white religion and doing white wedding and calling his African Gods powerless power.

vaxx:
Your comment is more frustrating than I thought. None of my writeup here suggest that african spirituality is a religion that teaches is adherent to be dependable. Therefore I consider your post as those I labell as strawmen conclusion.


My write up was talking about human instinct and decision making as this are the major foundation of African spirituality and not simply mysticism only.

Surely we are caught in a chaotic moment sometime where we don't know what to do. But remember that despite whatever chaos you face, there are still decisions to be made. And this is what African spirituality philosophy entails as that is the symbolical representation of eshu .And not to be dependant.

So If you drop the ball of decision-making, and allow babalawo to do it for You. You will be enslaved and subjugated, because you have neglect the philosophy of eshu which is making decisions regularly.

.So Control your path by controlling your decisions. This is how you venerate Eshu, deity of the crossroad.

But since Most mental-slaves always excuse this and say that they are not in control of their decisions. But you are. If you look deeper, you will see that even in oppression, you still have choices. You might not like the choice that will lead to success because it is too difficult, and this is the reason some take the easier choice (usually handed to them by the babalawo or priest tjey visit and they pretend they had no choice.

No matter how difficuilt it might be .choices are always available. If you don't see them that is because you are blind to difficult choices and only can see the easy ones. Eshu cannot be taken away by any oppressor; Eshu is always at the crossroads of choice.


So in summary African spirituality is about practicality in line with mysticism.

Omo ORUNMILA(the child of ORUNMILA) is full of wisdom and not a babalawo subject.

Ur topic was.... Where was orisha during slave trade?/how did they let it happen...

This suggests that orisha was expected to do something for humans. How does this not teach that we should be dependable on them?
Calling human instinct and decision making the foundation of african spirituality is totally misleading. Human instinct is human instinct and not orisha. Humans must make decisions based on environmental circumstances or biological situation. If man suffering from malaria makes a choice, same man will not make same choice if he is not sick. I fail to see how this has anything to do with the Gods.

Why do traditionalists pray? What do they desire from a supposedly undependable God when they pray?

vaxx:
It will mean you are not yet evolve to understand olodumare ""God"" in africa spirituality.

It means Everything that you can sense and yet not sense is an expression of God,

The basic element of GOD is this...

- God is ‘the happening’ itself!
- God is ‘the Truth’ which is always happening.
- God is there, never happened.

Therefore God is source of every creation, when you see man, you just seen his element, when you see tree, you just seen his element, when you rock etc, you are seeing his element.

Some call it Monism, by the way, the "Everything that you can sense and yet not sense is an expression of God" . Amerindians also believed in the divine unity of everything, as did the Aborigines, the Amazonians, and quite a few others.

Judaism introduced the same idea with their 'God', until priests got hold of it and placed themselves between humans and their psyche. It is not some external entity that spoke to Adam in the garden, but the unconsciousness (as it was at the time) in the human which is projected outside ones own being when initially discovered. The serpent is simply the negative aspect of that same psyche, negative in Judaism. It is the idea being conveyed in the Book of Proverbs, where Sophia is given a voice.

Jesus symbolises the same idea, being the embodiment of the "will" in the human being, except by his time it had become the consciousness, as in humans were more conscious of it. It is the entire meaning of the expression "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God". He goes further and tells you where to seek it: "The Kingdom of God is within you" and "Know ye not that ye are gods?, in an attempt to resolve this split and unite the psyche with the 'self'. This same concept is later established in the form of the Holy Spirit that ministers to one. But religion had so much got in the way that they made an external God out of it, tagged it on to the almighty and placed it apart from the person and far away up in heaven.

It is what Christianity expresses in the idea of the Trinity, but which Christians think means the literal "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", rather comically! When it is said, "seek, and you shall find", it is the realisation of this idea that one is supposed to be looking for, the "unity of all in the concept called God" as embodied in the human being".

Mohammed, in Islam, also discovered the same idea. It is the realisation of an aspect that appears separate from the self that we now read as coming from God through the Angel Gabriel. His struggle (Jihad), in accepting the first encounter with his psyche as his consciousness meeting his unconsciousness is established in the narrative of the Angel telling him to "recite", a struggle that lasted years but which is presented as an act that took a couple of minutes. The rituals in Islam are meant to lead one to this discovery! Their consciousness and unconsciousness has become Allah, and Mohammed is the one who literally makes one aware of it.

The Four Noble Truths - abandoning your Tanhās, and replacing them with Chanda - is the first step in the million or so on the journey to the realisation of Nirvana. Jesus expressed the same sentiment when he told you where not to store up your wealth, advising against the wrong sort of wealth. Nirvana is not someplace like some think heaven is, but a state of bliss that comes after arriving at the destination of knowing that you are God. A realisation that upon encountering, makes some feel so much sorrow for ones fellow beings that one does not enter the Nirvana one has sought for all ones life, but goes down to hell where humans are suffering in an attempt to save them, because "In as much as one does for all those whom one sees, one has done for one's God whom one sees not"!

Jung called it the Shadow. His work on the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29?wprov=sfla1]Individuation[/url] dealt with this dual idea of the human being. He wrote extensively how the lack of resolution appears as a mental illness even in societies. And went on past the Trinity, as discovered by the West, and added a fourth aspect to form the Quarternity signifying completeness.


Say "I don't understand as much as you want!" I understand it's what people say when they themselves are limited in their own understandings, or when one is simply disagreeing with them, so I will ignore it henceforth or perhaps create a thread with that topic just so I can point people to it when they say "you don't understand"!

Buda does not agree that you vaxx, do not have the capability to understand buda if buda is clear enough. You are not stupid! If you ever don't understand buda, please note that it is because buda has not expressed herself clearly enough, and once you make buda aware, buda promises to always try harder to express buda clearer than buda might have done.

frank317:


Ur topic was.... Where was orisha during slave trade?/how did they let it happen...

Excellent

This suggests that orisha was expected to do something for humans.

And not only that, it also suggest what the orisha is expecting from us the devotee before they can do something for human. if I put it in your own words.

How does this not teach that we should be dependable on them?

The thread then go further to break down what orisha entails and the position of we the devotee in regards to it.

Calling human instinct and decision making the foundation of african spirituality is totally misleading. Human instinct is human instinct and not orisha. Humans must make decisions based on environmental circumstances or biological situation

Strawman argument here . I only position human instinct and decision making as the philosophy behind the worship of orisha eshu . I never said eshu is the human instinct and the decision making itself.it is what the orisha eshu symbolized that I represent.

If man suffering from malaria makes a choice, same man will not make same choice if he is not sick. I fail to see how this has anything to do with the Gods.

when you read the above response you will connect the dot you failed to see.

Why do traditionalists pray? What do they desire from a supposedly undependable God when they pray

In Yoruba, the words for prayer are iwure and adura. I hope you understand Yoruba.

Do not conceived it in the same way as the christain or Muslim part. In IFA: Spirituality, it is a meditative session you engage in when you are conscious of being the Supreme Being Olodumaré, not just communicating with God.

This is the difference and it is very essential. praying in Abrahamic theology, is a representation of a weak Being begging a mythical stronger Being to aid you in your endeavors. But In Ifa, when you pray you are not communicating with a distinct Supreme Being from you but you are focusing on the realization that YOU ARE A MICROCOSM OF THE SUPREME BEING.

frank317:


He was perfectly dishonest with his reply. U will see him hobnobbing with sciencewatch, a Christian, who has a different view on the matter, but as long as both call and accept the word God, they are OK and friends. But what is the difference between the two? Both will say nothing but will quickly differentiate the two when u bring in an example from either side.

Vaxx, I will take u seriously the u come out open on what u think about christian belief... Do u think they are slaves to the white?
U asked Martin why he chose to be a slave by answer a white name but fail to ask sciencewatch why he chose to be a slave by following a white religion and doing white wedding and calling his African Gods powerless power.

This clearly shows you are dishonest..go thru my profile, I have created enough thread to counter the position of Christianity and likewise that of Islam. So if you says we are ":hobnobbing"" you are clearly trying to defend the indefendendable.

I as a person sometimes agree with athiest on so many occasion.you can confirm on some of my post. And likewise that of Christianity when our position align. Yes it happens that my alignment are in general with the position of Christianity or Islam because our view on certain topic fall into the same perspective but with different interpretation.

I will obliged you to clarify your position well enough before you attack next time. And with your question above, I answer something similar above. Raise your eyes up.

budaatum:

Some call it Monism, by the way, the "Everything that you can sense and yet not sense is an expression of God" . Amerindians also believed in the divine unity of everything, as did the Aborigines, the Amazonians, and quite a few others.

Judaism introduced the same idea with their 'God', until priests got hold of it and placed themselves between humans and their psyche. It is not some external entity that spoke to Adam in the garden, but the unconsciousness (as it was at the time) in the human which is projected outside ones own being when initially discovered. The serpent is simply the negative aspect of that same psyche, negative in Judaism. It is the idea being conveyed in the Book of Proverbs, where Sophia is given a voice.

Jesus symbolises the same idea, being the embodiment of the "will" in the human being, except by his time it had become the consciousness, as in humans were more conscious of it. It is the entire meaning of the expression "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God". He goes further and tells you where to seek it: "The Kingdom of God is within you" and "Know ye not that ye are gods?, in an attempt to resolve this split and unite the psyche with the 'self'. This same concept is later established in the form of the Holy Spirit that ministers to one. But religion had so much got in the way that they made an external God out of it, tagged it on to the almighty and placed it apart from the person and far away up in heaven.

It is what Christianity expresses in the idea of the Trinity, but which Christians think means the literal "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", rather comically! When it is said, "seek, and you shall find", it is the realisation of this idea that one is supposed to be looking for, the "unity of all in the concept called God" as embodied in the human being".

Mohammed, in Islam, also discovered the same idea. It is the realisation of an aspect that appears separate from the self that we now read as coming from God through the Angel Gabriel. His struggle (Jihad), in accepting the first encounter with his psyche as his consciousness meeting his unconsciousness is established in the narrative of the Angel telling him to "recite", a struggle that lasted years but which is presented as an act that took a couple of minutes. The rituals in Islam are meant to lead one to this discovery! Their consciousness and unconsciousness has become Allah, and Mohammed is the one who literally makes one aware of it.

The Four Noble Truths - abandoning your Tanhās, and replacing them with Chanda - is the first step in the million or so on the journey to the realisation of Nirvana. Jesus expressed the same sentiment when he told you where not to store up your wealth, advising against the wrong sort of wealth. Nirvana is not someplace like some think heaven is, but a state of bliss that comes after arriving at the destination of knowing that you are God. A realisation that upon encountering, makes some feel so much sorrow for ones fellow beings that one does not enter the Nirvana one has sought for all ones life, but goes down to hell where humans are suffering in an attempt to save them, because "In as much as one does for all those whom one sees, one has done for one's God whom one sees not"!

Jung called it the Shadow. His work on the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29?wprov=sfla1]Individuation[/url] dealt with this dual idea of the human being. He wrote extensively how the lack of resolution appears as a mental illness even in societies. And went on past the Trinity, as discovered by the West, and added a fourth aspect to form the Quarternity signifying completeness.


Say "I don't understand as much as you want!" I understand it's what people say when they themselves are limited in their own understandings, or when one is simply disagreeing with them, so I will ignore it henceforth or perhaps create a thread with that topic just so I can point people to it when they say "you don't understand"!

Buda does not agree that you vaxx, do not have the capability to understand buda if buda is clear enough. You are not stupid! If you ever don't understand buda, please note that it is because buda has not expressed herself clearly enough, and once you make buda aware, buda promises to always try harder to express buda clearer than buda might have done.

completely goal post shifting..


The thread topic is where was orisha /olodumare during slave trade and not the similarities between world major religion...


I am not contrasting or comparing the similarities of religion here , I am stating what seems as ignorance when people repeat the same question.where was orisha /olodumare during slave trade.

So if I say you lack the understanding....you yourself should be able to accept it.. It is not insulting. It is obvious. '""See the topic"" " see your reply"


BUT I will like you to create this topic elsewhere.....it been what i wanted to do.even compiling some book on it.

tintingz:
Ok, since you have ifa knowledge, what do you suggest the people should have done for the gods to protect them?

Your question was answer in the op

but you will have made an impressive question like this " what should people do for themselves for gods to protect.them. "" human instinct is already given as the most precious price:""

I repeat the proverb again . Gods help those who help themselves. Historically, at least they were over 50 rebellions or more that occurred on slave ships by the enslaved in Africans coast which resulted in the Africans freeing themselves and making their way back to Africa directly or indirectly...this are the people whom gods help. They rembeer the principle of unity to defend even when gun was pointing toward them. They symbolized Sango. The brave warrior.

Another way gods help those whom help themselvea were Africans whom excape and establish their own colony in the land where they were. One of the first of such colonies was founded in Veracruz in 1570 but others existed as early as 1550 and still exist. In other words the historical record shows clearly that enslaved Africans began fighting for freedom as soon as enslaved, from the boat to the block and before and after.which shows Gods help those who help themselves.

vaxx:
completely goal post shifting..


The thread topic is where was orisha /olodumare during slave trade and not the similarities between world major religion...


I am not contrasting or comparing the similarities of religion here , I am stating what seems as ignorance when people repeat the same question.where was orisha /olodumare during slave trade.

So if I say you lack the understanding....you yourself should be able to accept it.. It is not insulting. It is obvious. '""See the topic"" " see your reply"


BUT I will like you to create this topic elsewhere.....it been what i wanted to do.even compiling some book on it.

You should just write my response for me then and not bother asking the question or starting a thread! As if you get to tell people what they should write! You said I do not understand, and I have shown you that I seem to understand way better than you seem to.

Regarding the topic at hand. You said Orisha/Olodumare is not separate from the human being, and that they are one and the same thing. So the question posed is simply, "where were the people who were enslaved (or their sense) when they were being enslaved?", since the people and Olodumare/Orisha are the same one entity, according to you.

The answer is a simple, the person, and their Orisha, were not smart enough to resist being enslaved. And the people on seeing the superiority of the new god, thankfully abandoned their primitive idea of Olodumare, which was their own archaic thinking anyway, and smartly, adopted the superior knowledge and idea of god that was used to enslave them, as anyone with a brain would do. As we Yorubas would say, a ja wo kuro ninu apon ti ko yo, a lo gbe omi ila ka na, or our enslavement would have been a lot worse than it currently is today, with our pointless human sacrifices et al!

You really should stop throwing tantrums as if you are the only one with a brain. We are not stupid individuals whom you get to educate with what is seeming more like a limited understanding of what you think you might know. If you don't want people to voice their opinion, consider writing it in a book and not on an interactive forum where people would likely respond. I have written my piece and it stands. You are not the only one on here and if you don't get it, those who will will!

tintingz:
Ok, since you have ifa knowledge, what do you suggest the people should have done for the gods to protect them?

Abi now! N'gbo, vaxx. What do you suggest the people should have done so that the superior god did not overwhelm and enslave them?

budaatum:

[You should just write my response for me then and not bother asking the question or starting a thread! As if you get to tell people what they should write! You said I do not understand, and I have shown you that I seem to understand way better than you seem to.

I must have offend you to ask something of such as an online buddy. But if it get on your nerve as I see it . I tender my apology.

I still repeat you do not understand the concept of God In ifa spirituality and it clarly shows. And as for this one I will not tender an apology because it is obvious. And nonetheless they are distinct difference from both of them and your post has a lot of flaws which I can point out . But that is not the purpose of this thread.

Regarding the topic at hand. You said Orisha/Olodumare is not separate from the human being, and that they are one and the same thing. So the question posed is simply, "where were the people who were enslaved (or their sense) when they were being enslaved?", since the people and Olodumare/Orisha are the same one entity, according to you.

it is two things. It's is either you read out of contest or you read what suit you. but all the same it is still lack of understanding. sometimes when I don't understand thread I boycoult the discussion or I ask relevant question to get the message. I just don't debate becuse I can use Google. It is called internet abuse.

You really should stop throwing tantrums as if you are the only one with a brain. We are not stupid individuals whom you get to educate with what is seeming more like a limited understanding of what you think you might know. If you don't want people to voice their opinion, consider writing it in a book and not on an interactive forum where people would likely respond. I have written my piece and it stands. You are not the only one on here and if you don't get it, those who will will!

This is more of emotions rather than a discussion. Ok your point is noted and will be well taken care of.

budaatum:

Abi now! N'gbo, vaxx. What do you suggest the people should have done so that the superior god did not overwhelm and enslave them?

look up sir

vaxx:
look up sir

I'm not wadding through your bad writing vaxx, looking for an answer to a question you have not bothered to respond to. If you've answered it, you can copy and paste a link to it, or let me just assume you are talking crap and hoping we are too ignorant to see through you!

[/b][b]

budaatum:

I'm not wadding through your bad writing vaxx, looking for an answer to a question you have not bothered to respond to. If you've answered it, you can copy and paste a link to it, or let me just assume you are talking crap and hoping we are too ignorant to see through you!

""bad writting"" whaooo

vaxx:
I must have offend you to ask something of such as an online buddy. But if it get on your nerve as I see it . I tender my apology.

Yes, you do get on my nerves. You write badly and expect to be understood, and when people respond, what do you say? "You don't understand"! When you claim one does not understand, I suppose you are being emotionless, in your view!

If you don't want to be misunderstood, why not make a little bit more of an effort to write clearly? Or haven't you heard of proofreading what you post? You really need to stop insulting people and then accuse them of getting emotional. Your insults are a clear sign of who is the emotional one here. Though now that you've got me going, emotion is well deserved, from me!

budaatum:


Yes, you do get on my nerves. You write badly and expect to be understood, and when people respond, what do you say? "You don't understand"! When you claim one does not understand, I suppose you are being emotionless, in your view!

If you don't want to be misunderstood, why not make a little bit more of an effort to write clearly? Or haven't you heard of proofreading what you post? You really need to stop insulting people and then accuse them of getting emotional. Your insults are a clear sign of who is the emotional one here. Though now that you've got me going, emotion is well deserved, from me!

ok. Clearly noted. Emotion on display.

vaxx:
[/b][b]""bad writting"" whaooo

I have told you about it many times. You even once made an effort to write clearer, but it did not last long. It is insulting of you to expect us to derive meaning from what you write when you can't bother to be clear. And to accuse us of not understanding when you don't is rubbing more egg in our faces! I swear, if it was not the case that I know you have a better brain in your head than you sometimes use to express yourself, I would not even bother reading your stuff.

Please do not make me dump that very good head of yours in the dustbin I beg you. My existence here will be less fruitful if I have to!

budaatum:

I have told you about it many times. You even once made an effort to write clearer, but it did not last long. It is insulting of you to expect us to derive meaning from what you write when you can't bother to be clear. And to accuse us of not understanding when you don't is rubbing more egg in our faces! I swear, if it was not the case that I know you have a better brain in your head than you sometimes use to express yourself, I would not even bother reading your stuff.

Please do not make me dump that very good head of yours in the dustbin I beg you. My existence here will be less fruitful if I have to!

I accept mistake . But saying what i post here is not understood base on bad writing will be a clever way to be biased. EVEN Steven wonder can read and understand it. But anyway, Your complain will be noted and be well taken care of

vaxx:
Your question was answer in the op

but you will have made an impressive question like this " what should people do for themselves for gods to protect.them. "" human instinct is already given as the most precious price:""

I repeat the proverb again . Gods help those who help themselves. Historically, at least they were over 50 rebellions or more that occurred on slave ships by the enslaved in Africans coast which resulted in the Africans freeing themselves and making their way back to Africa directly or indirectly...this are the people whom gods help. They rembeer the principle of unity to defend even when gun was pointing toward them. They symbolized Sango. The brave warrior.

Another way gods help those whom help themselvea were Africans whom excape and establish their own colony in the land where they were. One of the first of such colonies was founded in Veracruz in 1570 but others existed as early as 1550 and still exist. In other words the historical record shows clearly that enslaved Africans began fighting for freedom as soon as enslaved, from the boat to the block and before and after.which shows Gods help those who help themselves.

Three things here,

The Gods depends on humans before taking any action?

The Gods fail to protect it people because Africans were not united?

From your post, how do we know if the Gods actually didn't do anything when the people fought?

vaxx:
I accept mistake . But saying what i post here is not understood base on bad writing will be a clever way to be biased. EVEN Steven wonder can read and understand it. But anyway, Your complain will be noted and be well taken care of

You are free to assume I am not as capable of reading as Stevie Wonder is if it would only make you write a tiny bit clearer.
Thank you.