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UPS Back-up, Also A Complement To FTA / FTA Frequency / Cctv Installation A Complement To Fta And Solar Energy (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 5:30pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Let me guess UniT or Mastech? or some other El- Cheapo knockoff meter? earthrealm: |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by chris81964(m): 6:29pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Malevonent: Do your cables get hot when charging? 16MM in my opinion is too thin. Just my opinion. |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 6:41pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
If the battery interconnect cables get hot while charging or discharging then very definitely he needs to upgrade to a thicker gauge. 16mm is roughly 5 to 6awg per US measurements - per the NEC (US National Electric Code) Ampacities table, 16MM ( 5 to 6awg) is good for approx ~60amps at 60°C. If OP is charging or discharging under 50amps at 48v nominal and with the short cable lengths (half a yard) he mentioned then 16mm is well within spec. I have attached the NEC Ampacities guide below http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/nec%20ampacities.pdf chris81964: 1 Like
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by chris81964(m): 7:05pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
NiyiOmoIyunade: 1 Like |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 8:06pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Malevonent: You might want to upgrade to at least 35mm2 cables for battery interconnects if they're 200AH or higher. The resistance (impedance) becomes nearly negligible at those gauge sizes. I generally don't use below 50mm2 for ease of mind. I suggest you do the same 3 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 8:12pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
NiyiOmoIyunade:Your advice is on point yet unsafe in this scenario. They'll get warm if he's using the C10 charge rate, even if 25mm2 and the distance is as short as manageable. And molten battery terminals/posts are real. Ask the victims. 3 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by duwdu: 8:21pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Saipro: Based on my own continuing education and experience, albeit both relatively short, I fully subscribe to this - and practice it. ........ P34c3 ..... ... |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 8:30pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Kwarrect Sir. I agree with everything you have said. Also, I acknowledge that the NEC specifies the minimum guidelines for safety and we.can definitely do better than the minimum chris81964: 2 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 8:46pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
My Oga, I have used 16mm cables for years for battery interconnects in 48v 200Ah systems with no trouble. The cables are always full gauge copper and typically inverter charge amps max out at 30a/40a. Where i have solar added on, I typically use 35MM cable from CC to battery and battery interconnects especially in a large PV array that may gross 60a output. I am convinced I am over designing in these cases but better safe than sorry and thicker cables can do no harm afterall. With the MustPower type inverters, I have observed battery cables get warm from around 45a/50a as the charger output seems to have a lot of AC ripple or other noise in the signal (I have yet to verify this empirically). With a clean DC signal such as a charge controller may put out, the cables stay cool at the ~50a range. Saipro: |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by pranil(m): 9:23pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Saipro: I agree for four batteries the inverter is probably 5 KW for 5 KW at least 35 or better 50 mm2. Can you detail the inverter.CC make model, please My guess is the batteries are not getting correct voltage due to cable loss. Does the inverter CC have voltage compensation and direct voltage measurement otherwise the batteries may be getting undercharged? a regular undercharging will prevent them from absorb stage A simple test will be to measure the voltage at battery terminals while under full charging current ( near the end of charging) and check with manufacturers spec. If lower you need to raise charger ( inverter/CC) setpoint |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by pranil(m): 9:37pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
NiyiOmoIyunade: 16 mm2 is more than 0.1 V drop over one meter at 40 amps. also if you apply thermal derating 16 mm2 is 61 amps x0.71( 50 DEG) = 43 amp which is borderline. also cables have to be sized for the inverter max capacity not charging current Assuming you will be carrying 2 KW at 44 V( worst case scenario) at 0.9 efficiencies( 2000w/44v)/0.9=50 amps. any higher loads and the cables become the weak point over shorter distances, it makes a difference of a few thousand Naira - Why to take a risk? 3 Likes
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by earthrealm(m): 9:44pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
NiyiOmoIyunade: Bought it on amazon
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Malevonent: 10:10pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
chris81964: i used this to check prior to purchase, http://www.solar-wind.co.uk/cable-sizing-DC-cables.html the site above confirmed that 16mm is ok. installer recommended 35mm truout, i refused. i used 35mm for just inverter to battery, 25mm for cc to battery - all about 2.5m hvnt really bothered to chk if it gets hots when charging, will do so and revert. edit: correction, used 25mm for batt to batt series connection and 16mm for cc to batt, sry i mixed it up initially.checked cable wasnt warm during normal usage 1 Like |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by chris81964(m): 10:56pm On Aug 07, 2018 |
Malevonent: All your battery cables should be the same size. From inverter to battery and between batteries. Everyone including me has got an opinion. You should not be surprised then that your batteries are not behaving. You did not listen to the installer. 3 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 12:59am On Aug 08, 2018 |
In your average use scenario for Nigeria, a user has 4 12v 200Ah batteries to make his 48v 200Ah system, if he has a 5kva inverter connected to the bank, he either chose it because that was the only or cheapest size available for 48v or he wanted the relatively faster charging (with limited Mains or Gen availability) or because he was told the inverter was 'rugged' enough to carry his freezer or fridge and it would 'last' or some other reason not related to the actual performance characteristics of a 5kva inverter. The inverter in question would have on average less than 1kw of total loads connected to its output - my point is that your average user purchases a 3.5kva Sukam or 5kva Felicity because that is the smallest 48v choice he has - he doesn't really need or use that 5kva capacity neither do the connected loads ever even approach that 5kva limit. Come to think of it, why would someone even try to put 2kw+ of loads on a 9.6kwh bank (4 pcs 12v 200Ah batteries) on a routine basis? The above is the design scenario where people use 16MM cables for battery interconnects and it more than suffices - millions of Nigerians do it this way and have managed to get by with no trouble for years. Unlike hardcore users on here who want to routinely load a 5kw rated inverter with 4.8kw of total loads, that is simply not the case for 99% of users who have that same size inverter and a much undersized battery bank relative to the inverter capacity. To be frank, most users or installers do not even have the tools to properly crimp on lugs onto a 16mm cable (they just use a plier) not to talk of 35mm or 50mm cables which are much thicker and tougher to work with without proper tools. I would be surprised (nay flabbermoosed) if it turns out inadequate cable gauge is the culprit behind OP's battery balance issues but let us wait to hear from him. Anything is possible afterall. 4 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Dam5reey(m): 6:43am On Aug 08, 2018 |
NiyiOmoIyunade: Early grave for the batteries |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by primefaith1: 8:09am On Aug 08, 2018 |
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Wazari: 8:49am On Aug 08, 2018 |
While I understand what you are trying to say, I don't think it is good practice to spec the cables based on the present consumption or the battery bank size. You should use the inverter norminal rating. So in this case, we are looking at approximately 105A for a 5kva 48V inverter. The reason is that even though you know the present power demand, you cannot predict what will be plugged into the inverter in future. Most inverter manufacturers provide a recommended cable size in their manuals for this reason. So from your NEC table, the cable minimum size should be either 3AWG (90C) or 2AWG (75C). In either case, the minimum cable size will be 35mm. That said, like you said its too early to say if the cable gauge is the reason for battery balance issues. NiyiOmoIyunade: 2 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by S007: 10:51am On Aug 08, 2018 |
Wazari: Great comment. I concur. Most manuals will also tell to you to go higher if cable length will be an issue. 1 Like |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by duwdu: 1:23pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
pranil: Whoa... the bit in bold+italics is in fact what I've been practicing... I happened to have noticed that, with my PCM60X CC manually and properly set-up for charging my AGM batteries: 1.) With the recommended and supplied Battery Voltage-Sensing cable connected, 29.2V (@24V nominal) on the CC actually reads only 28.2V on my VIL Power Star-Light 3KW inverter, 28.2V on a clamp multi-meter, and 28.0V on my proper multi-meter which I trust more because the accuracy of it's readings has been favorably compared to those on Flukes. I ascertained these discrepancies consistently over one or two charge cycles. 2.) Without the BVS cables, the CC @ 28.6V would give 28.2V, 28.2V, and 28.0V respectively as listed under 1., above. This indicated to me, that the CC was potentially undercharging my batteries! So, 3.) I've settled to NO LONGER use the BVS cable, and for the CC maximum absorb charge @ 29.7V; the other measurements now register max 29.4V, 29.4, and 29.1-2V, respectively. I calibrated the CC's Float charging parameters accordingly. My batteries are maintained at under 30 degrees Centigrade almost always, as measured with an ETEKCITY Lasergrip 774 Infrared Thermometer. If I'm correct in my above steps, then many thanks to the lessons and confidence imparted on me on this forum and elsewhere, otherwise I welcome all corrections, advice, and criticisms. Thanks. ........ P34c3 ..... ... |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 1:24pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
I am a fan of using the thickest gauge cable you can possibly afford for best results but I will also be the last to say a particular cable size is insufficient when it clearly is sufficient for the application and many authorities that set building and electrical codes aver that it is sufficient. It is much like a friend who ran 4MM wires to all sockets in his house to power his 2hp ACs which came from factory installed with 2.5mm wire or people who dedicate a 5kva relay stabilizer to power their 'large' chest freezer whose maximum possible surge watts is about 1.5kw and running watts under 300w - sure these will work without issues but they are both clear cases of overdesign. Perhaps people make these choices due to an abundance of caution or perhaps they have been badly burnt in the past by false ratings and labels on products they bought so they scale up and err too much on the side of caution. So an application where based on the install parameters the inverter output is fed to a DB with separated loads of max 1.2kw AC and the inverter max charging amps is 30amps DC surely will be fine with 16mm cable - it is up to the installer or system designer to use a superior spec e.g 35MM. Again to be very clear I agree that 35MM is probably best for a 5kva inverter that we have all used for a test case but I will also not say 16mm is insufficient as a cable gauge unless the power moving through the system is in excess of 2kw in a 48v nominal system. If in doubt, then it is best to go for the next higher cable size like we have all reinforced several times. S007: 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by c0ogumo(m): 2:24pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by pranil(m): 5:31pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
earthrealm: did you try pressing zero button for 3 sec while keeping it away from any electrical field ( and jaws closed) DC tong testers need zero calibration on every start 1 Like |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 5:39pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
It appears to me that you have effectively moved your absorb voltage from 14.1v to 14.6v per 12v battery if I go with your trusted multimeter readings. All would be well provided you are within the manufacturer recommended temperature compensated absorb voltage range for your AGM battery type in which case 14.6v at 30°C would imply your battery manufacturer allowed a 14.1 to 14.8v absorb voltage range at the 25°C temperature reference (methinks Quanta uses 27°C as the reference). My point is that your current absorb voltage setpoint at 14.6v may be too high for an AGM battery especially if you bring temperature compensation into the picture - please check and revert - also what battery brand do you use? I am not sure I fully trust your Etekcity temperature probe - not sure if they are renowned for their accuracy - though the weather has been fair in Lekki in the last few months, I expect us to have crossed the 30°C mark by now. I will check what ambient temperature is when I get home today (I expect your battery temperature to trend around ambient except you have implemented special measures to cool them) duwdu: |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by pranil(m): 5:49pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
Malevonent: Unfortunately, that calculator is designed to give ratings at 30 DEG C which is not the case in Nigeria. This website has many tools and links for a solar design ( both free and pro) https://photovoltaic-software.com/free-online.php |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Saipro(m): 6:42pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
NiyiOmoIyunade:Once again, you're right but ... distance matters (resistance is quoted per unit distance) and you never can trust the quality of your cables. I have a 15kVA servo AVR and 4mm (calculations as per requirements specs showed 2.5mm) should be more than sufficient a gauge of cable to run power to and from it under 1m of distance. I did the installation myself using best practices as guidelines. Lo and behold, my 10mm cables got quite warm at 6kVA loading (on the input side of the servo). And that's AC, not DC. The point being, you really can't be too careful. And yes, time and time again, people have shown wanton use with big inverters. Rather than the 99% you quoted, I'd say more like 30%. AbuNafiu and Kiekie1 can bear witness to this. I'll merely assume you've had very civil and obedient clients thus far. 3 Likes |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by NiyiOmoIyunade(m): 7:02pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
My Oga Balanced analysis as always and I agree with you 100%. I use minimum 16mm cables for the input sides of servo stabs because of the wide and indeterminate input voltage range say between 80v and 250v AC - there is a very real possibility of starting a fire when PHCN brings low voltage and the client is obliviously running his plenty ACs and and other gadgets on the clean output voltage side without bothering to derate the load. I have had my fair share of unreasonable clients who do not want to understand that the expensive servo stab or inverter or battery bank they just paid for must still obey the laws of physics For all our inverter clients, Zeestone will attest that we always install a load limit on the inverter e.g a 3kw Mustpower will have its AC output clipped at 1.5Kw and a 5Kva Felicity will have its AC output clipped at 2.4Kw - for this reason we are able to get away with the design choices we make. Saipro: |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 8:14pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
pranil: Nicely said Sir. I use same zero calibration on my Unit 203 & 210 DC clamp meters respectively .. Its been working great tho ! |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 8:16pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
Saipro: Good evening Sir, you are right ! |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 8:18pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
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Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by Malevonent: 8:47pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
chris81964: cc:niyi, pranil saipro and others who commented sorry, i mixed things up, my batt to batt series connection is 25mm, and cc to batt is 16mm, checked, and the cable didnt get warm during normal usage. i saw another 5kva installation where the installer used 50mm all through, that to me is overdesign, and waste of resources 1 Like |
Re: Solar Energy, A Complement To FTA by kiekie1(m): 9:01pm On Aug 08, 2018 |
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