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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable (3857 Views)
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Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by MuttleyLaff: 7:39pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
LordReed:I am compassionate and a lover. I am not unnecessarily violent and do not force people to do things Go and bring police to come to do what. Are you alright. I dont mind such remarks if coming from an airhead. SMH LordReed:Seems someone is temporarily suffering from amnesia Please do a complete re-reading of all your posts done today You've forgotten about telling me this: "I take it you do not believe in an objective morality" You tried to embroil me in to fairky objective morality but without giving it much of a sniff, I threw it, immediately back in your face Now if you're claiming you dont believe in fairky objective morality, why for fairk's sake then, did you bring fairky objective morality up? You even went further, to give me an example plus explanation of it. Water don pass garri be dat, when people yield to the strong need to resort to posting with snide remarks |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by LordReed(m): 7:50pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff: LoL, English is really hard for you today. So because I asked you a question it makes it that I hold it as true? I think the airhead allusion is appropriate to you. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 7:59pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx: budaatum:It's not about whether there are loopholes in them or not, but whether they exist, are applied and adhered to, which they are, and where or when they are not, they should, are, and would be, enforced. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 8:06pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:First you claim they don't exist, now you've shifted to "they are not implemented", which is just not true! It's a criminal offence to perform unethical procedures and experiments on common rats, not to talk of on human beings! The debate goes on because new unthought of procedures are constantly being considered. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 8:07pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:And ehnnn buda"" ethics as a whole is not a democracy and treating it as such is absurd. It’s about making decisions. Choice is subjective. That doesn’t mean there is not logical, and rational choices. That doesn’t mean “ethics” is up in the air or need to follow a particular standard ..... Do you believe that strictly objective things only have precedence, validity/weight? Even with food, isn’t a burnt plate “bad”? In IT . (Not every programming language is object-oriented )... |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 8:12pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:what i claim is they don't have value/weight on scientist performing the experiment unless for society reasons. And no where do I say they don't exist. If i were claiming so, I would not brought out the code. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 8:16pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:I don't know where you get your "emphasis" from! Consent is after all only one of many principles, and nowhere is it said that one can perform any experiment on living things just because they give consent! Just think. Say a person wants to perform an experiment about the chewiness and flavour of cooked human flesh. Can the consent of the individual experimented on make the experiment ethical? |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by MuttleyLaff: 8:22pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
LordReed:All you've been doing from #36 is running after shadows Hopping from Machiavelli to fairky objective morality, then to and fro one poxy snide remark and the other or obsession with a fictional wall Why didnt you leave a disclaimer saying you do not hold it as true? Why were you trying to get me involved with fairky objective morality? I wrote: "I dont mind such remarks if coming from an airhead." I wouldn't have minded, if you're an airhead or I allude you're an airhead but I do mind those remarks because I know you arent an airhead and you cant write better or classy posts without needing to resort to snide remarks Idle hands are the devil's workshop, that's how the devil always finds some mischief for idle hands to do. You're a recently certified mischief maker, thats why lately you've been opening up Religion thread topics upandan the place that has no substance, head and/or tail 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 8:23pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:it is written bodly in Nuremberg code.....and at the same time WHO attested to it. Consent is the most important agreement before carry out any scientific experimentation on human. Just think. Say a person wants to perform an experiment about the chewiness and flavour of cooked human flesh. Can the consent of the individual experimented on make the experiment ethical?have you ever wonder how postmoterm is carry out....do the dead body required pre-informed notice or from the relatives? |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 8:39pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff:i like the way you pushed the question back to him.... 1 Like |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by LordReed(m): 8:48pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff: LoL! Don't take it so hard, English can be difficult to understand sometimes. LMFAO! |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 8:58pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:It doesn't mean that because you have consent you can go ahead and perform unethical procedures! If the procedure itself is considered unethical, you can't perform it legally even with consent of the person being experimented on. Current issues related to this is the argument we're having over here about canabinoids. No doctor can currently prescribe it even if they want to except illegally, or the law is changed or you're given special dispensation by the home secretary. (MuttleyLaff informs me this is changing soon). Another is abortions over a certain gestation period after which you can't get a normal abortion, consent or not. Then there's the ongoing stem cell controversy where ethics is of immense consideration. Different countries even have Stem Cell Laws stating whether they can be used and to which extent. Stem cell research using the human embryo is permitted in Sweden, Spain, Finland, Belgium, Greece, Britain, Denmark and the Netherlands; however, it is illegal in Germany, Austria, Ireland, Italy, and Portugal. And where it is not permitted, consent is a rather mute point! I just don't see the reason why you insist that consent is a waiver for ethics in experimental procedures, vaxx. That's what you seem to be saying. If so, you are very wrong! |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by MuttleyLaff: 9:00pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:He's a L-plate holder LordReed:[img]https://s1/images/MuttleysGato.gif[/img] We all have demon(s) but I choose not to feed mine. My sympathy for you. Hahahaha haaa. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by LordReed(m): 9:02pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff: LMFAO! |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 9:03pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:I hardly see how this is related! In a homicidal death, post-mortems are usually carried out as a legal requirement, consent or not. In deaths where there is no suspicion as to the cause of death, there might not be. It is pretty straight forward. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 9:10pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:You keep repeating this as if by so doing it becomes true! Consent is not the only code that needs to be satisfied before experiments can proceed. There are others, and which carry equal, if not more, weight that come into question too. And why you fail to see this completely alludes me. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 9:13pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:I have not claimed there is anything democratic about ethics! India, today, decriminalised homosexuality but I bet if they had to vote on it, it would still be a crime! |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by MuttleyLaff: 9:15pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cannabis-derived-medicinal-products-to-be-made-available-on-prescription I am still lost for words, how you weren't aware of this budaatum:Yeah heard on LBC, this evening, that India has decriminalised same sex relationships Whey Hey! 1 Like |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 9:22pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:Any experiment done on a human without his consent is unethical. And be sure that the person has the ability to understand enough to give informed consent. The possible outcomes should be knowable and known and the human must understand the possible outcomes for it to be ethical, meaning concernt determine if it is ethical or not . Example a new drug trials on HiV patients. Current issues related to this is the argument we're having over here about canabinoids. No doctor can currently prescribe it even if they want to except illegally, or the law is changed or you're given special dispensation by the home secretary. (MuttleyLaff informs me this is changing soon).All this depends on the country pushing the agenda. Science itself depends not on political law to function....it is even a case against human right as some party demonstrate. A proactive country like Germany is setting standard for this bull-shit..... As long as the subject involved demonstrate, in accordance with Nuremberg law. The experiment is consider valid as some party stated. What we have here is political argument and not a sciencetific decision .... |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 9:33pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:But we still have ethics surrounding how we may treat them while alive, and how we are permitted to kill them! People go to jail for the unethical slaughter of animals intended for consumption! Or don't they have such laws where you are? I'm beginning to think you are misusing the word "ethics". I did give a definition when asked! Ethics are moral principles that govern a person's behaviour or the conducting of an activity. There clearly are moral principles that govern the conduct of clinical experiments, and there are moral principles that apply to the conduct of slaughtering animals for consumption. Those moral principles are what are commonly referred to as the "ethics" of the field that they apply to. Where I live, if you are caught circumventing moral principles of slaughter houses, or clinical experiments, you would have committed a crime and could go to jail. And claiming you had consent would not absolve you of the crime. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 9:37pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:Even where the procedure itself has not been deemed ethical in the relevant society? Vaxx, are you saying that with the consent of those experimented on, it is not illegal to perform Stem cell research using the human embryo for example in Germany? |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 9:38pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:you could not see how it related but you were able to ask a similar question.....well it is not important but it is neccasry for the analysis, cause of individuals death either natural or unnatural. At least to take proactive measure. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 9:42pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:consent is the most important factor in ethics.......without it, it will be illegal to carry out scientific experiment on human. YET TO SEE ANY ETHICAL RULES THAT OUTWEIGHT THIS. IF ANY PROVIDE IT. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 9:51pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx: budaatum: |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 9:59pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:what is the definition of experiments here -? How do we make an ethical decision in regard to it? well let say , for an experiment to be truly valid, we have to different groups experimented upon, one being a group that does not know what exactly the experiment is for, or what the researchers expect to see as results. You know, group A is given a drug, group B is given a placebo, group C is given nothing but told they are, group D is given nothing and told they are given nothing. Something like that. How do define ethics in this scenario?And where we ethics play its role? Waiting for your reply vaxx, are you saying that with the consent of those experimented on, it is not illegal to perform Stem cell research using the human embryo for example in Germany?this is political argument and not scientific decision. NOT GOING TO SHIFT POST. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 10:04pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
budaatum:I just ask a simple question , what are this moral principle? And you are given me a democratic answer.... Ethics is simply about making decision or call it choices... Am off ....gonna write more on this tommrrw |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 10:10pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:It is not a political argument at all, but a societal one. The society as a whole decides its ethics, and not just the people directly involved! Animals killed in slaughterhouses after all, have never campaigned for their humane treatment and killing, yet society has imposed ethics on how these procedures may legally be done! I don't post shift, vaxx. You seem to want to discuss ethics as it relates to experiments on living things as if only one perspective, that of the direct participants or the scientist alone should be considered, when in reality, it involves the whole society where the ethics actually prevail. No one can claim consent allows them to perform any experiment whatsoever if said experiment is outlawed. The outlawing itself is an ethics issue. I hope we are clear on that. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by budaatum: 10:14pm On Sep 06, 2018 |
vaxx:I am not giving you any democratic answer. What I gave is repeated below! budaatum: And here's a link to the moral principles relating to slaughterhouses in UK Nothing democratic at all, please! |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 6:31am On Sep 07, 2018 |
budaatum:Democracy answer imply that there is fixed definition that support this priniple of ethics which is totally wrong because ethics cannot be subject to evidence ,it is not scientific correct to do so. Therefore leveraging one against the other is too wrong ." (To do so is the equivalent of using water to define the shape of air.). |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 6:54am On Sep 07, 2018 |
budaatum:Laws exist to protect/sustain/promote/improve human society. This is separate (though there is overlap) to the the ethics of killing humans versus killing animals. Never confuse “law” with “morality”.i can see you are doing it a lot here. I'm beginning to think you are misusing the word "ethics". I did give a definition when asked!I have repeated in number how this definition contain a loopholes.....and you keep on repeating it. There clearly are moral principles that govern the conduct of clinical experiments, and there are moral principles that apply to the conduct of slaughtering animals for consumption. Those moral principles are what are commonly referred to as the "ethics" of the field that they apply to. Where I live, if you are caught circumventing moral principles of slaughter houses, or clinical experiments, you would have committed a crime and could go to jail. And claiming you had consent would not absolve you of the crime.You keep on repeating this moral principle as if it is law by itself.. Well, for the sake of argument if you have meant laws to be equal to morals. I we correct you that most of law are created not purely out of logic, but out of public opinion. If 99% of the people believe killing animal is very wrong, then it would become a law even if there isn’t any logic to back it up (there is, but assuming there isn’t any it would still be a law). This why I said science is much pragmatic and does not follow opinion but evidence. If i show you a dead cow and a dead human, naturally you will have more remorse for the dead human and not much to the dead cow. Becuse by nature we do not have much empathy for them like our own race. So slaughter ethics exist to please our egocentric as I mention before and not base on sciencetific decision. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by orisa37: 7:17am On Sep 07, 2018 |
The Scientist is not fair. He can only create Dogs but God remains superior over him. It's like The Rich Fools who thought he could do anything. He died that night leaving his wealth and ideas behind. So may be the Scientist leaving The Cure that he is hoarding to another select Scientist of God. Buhari can stop the infultration of Bokoharam and Fulani Herdsmen into other States, by Restructuring. He is reneging to satisfy his whims. May be he is not a Born Again Muslim. There are other case-practices that I can give for your Parable but sufficient unto Buhari is the evil there off. |
Re: The Scientist And His Dogs: A Modern Parable by vaxx: 7:38am On Sep 07, 2018 |
budaatum:Yes, they have. They are living beings like us, they share our capacity for emotions, joy, pain and love and therefore they should not be viewed as inferior beings who have no rights. Life is life. Whatever difference it is claimed, it's only for man's egoistical advantage. therefore slaughter ethics do not go in alingment with animal decision....they never want it anyway. I don't post shift, vaxx. You seem to want to discuss ethics as it relates to experiments on living things as if only one perspective, that of the direct participants or the scientist alone should be considered, when in reality, it involves the whole society where the ethics actually prevail.The relationship between the society and politics is the same as that of a measurement between compass and it's ship. You can't seperate them. Hence I say this is political argument and not scientific decision. Ok let me shift the post to accommodate your argument. There is political spectrum with two poles. One pole is “top-downward” government in which oligarchs reign with supposedly-unlimited power over society, while others have no authority except for what they’re delegated from moment to moment.in this case science in such society decline because it is incapable of advancing its research in such society due to its conduct of governance And what it terms as law. And anothe pole is the bottom upward which is the direct opposite. For example, societies that enjoy “bottom-upward” government also enjoy freedom of inquiry and speech and such, freedom for people to achieve their greatest potential, and constant innovation in both efficiency and effectiveness that results in ever-rising standards-of-living for everyone, leaving ever-more income available beyond . In this society , science and human consent are treated with ultimum respect. I think my present society is getting closer to that stage. You should be able to see the difference. No one can claim consent allows them to perform any experiment whatsoever if said experiment is outlawed. The outlawing itself is an ethics issue.You eventually push me into political disscussion instead of scientific one. First, understand ethical issues and not law related issues. Ethics is about making decision on what you should do or not do, while law details what you must do or not do. Science confirm to law but on the case of ethics , it is a total ball game. |
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