Pastor AIO:

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwxzwnpqE4I[/flash]

The reason I like this video is because I want to quote Keiser here:


"yeah, that's right, They call it financial VAN-DAL-ISM, you see they're up-ing the rhetoric, we . . we been talking about financial terrorism for months and months and months now, they're upping the rhetoric, they're going to get to the point where they realise that this is in fact not vandalism, which is a quaint way of saying terrorism. They didn't accuse Osama bin Laden of Vandalism on 9-11, or whoever did that. It was an act of terrorism. Moody's, S&P are financial terrorists. They are purposefully targetting these countries for destruction because they want their assets for nothing. "

The long and short of it is that there are Credit Rating Agencies that rate the credit-worthiness of different countries. Like at the moment USA is rated AAA. Iceland used to be rated AAA but then it defaulted on it's debts and it's rating fell off the scale completely. According to your rating it is determined how much funds you can have access to.

The only problem is that these credit rating agencies are created by the banksters and so can be used by them to manipulate countries. For Instance, due to it's present troubles Greece is rated CCC. US is struggling to pay it's debts. S&P have then threatened that if US defaults on even one payment that they will drop US to D. D is even lower than CCC which is where Greece is at at the moment and there is mayhem on the streets in Greece. What is the rationale behind this? They are just using the credit agencies to manipulate and scare US into keeping up it's payments.

What none of the banks like to talk about is Iceland that refused to pay it's debts. In fact they held a plebiscite and the people decided together that they would rather not pay and the banks can go to hell for all they care. They fell of the credit ratings scale completely. Iceland could not have done anything better for it's economy. It is booming again. The fastest growing economy in Europe at the moment. Portugal though is trying hard to be a good boy and do what they are told and yet Moody's recklessly dropped their ratings. This is what is being referred to in the video as financial terrorism.

US is struggling to pay its debts? And you got this information from where?

On Iceland, you do not even see the contradiction in your own opinions. They got away from the evil bankers and not only did the bankers not capture and slice them into pieces, but they're actually doing better. Yet, you don't wonder why everybody is not doing the same? No, it's better to say that the bankers are so powerful, nobody can cross them. Not even refuse their loans, let alone dare not to pay.

Man, this is becoming tiring. Look for a better topic to post on - one that will help Nigeria and humanity.

nlMediator:

What I despise about what you're doing is that your emotion leads you write utter rubbish and disguise it as facts, which the gullible consume, while you smile. Bush incurred 14 T debt in 8 years? FYI, US debt when Bush came in was about $5 trillion. When he left it was about $10 trillion. Obama has incurred roughly $4 trillion. I'm sure you'll come back with a new spin and say that whatever debt incurred under Obama was also under Bush, as though that gives you a license to misstate facts. And the one incurred before Bush was by his father! In financial matters, you either stick to facts or not. Keep your politics away from facts.

Is that really what you despise?  Yes, you're right.  I was wrong about Bush incurring 14T of debt in 8 years.  I said that cos I was aware that Clinton had done much to reduce the deficit (he actually left it at surplus) so when I saw the debt was 14T I thought 'wow!  that much!!!'. I couldn't imagine the kind of deficit that could leave the debt mountain that high.   However that is why you are here, to make sure that I don't get away with such shoddy research.  And this is why I insist that people should do their own research rather than swallow what they are told hook line and sinker. 

However your statement that I am writing such  rubbish disguised as facts would suggest that all I've written is rubbish, not just that bracketed statement.  Can you say that, really? 

nlMediator:

On Greece, everything you wrote may be true. But let's look at one piece of fact you cleverly omitted. Greece borrowed heavily so that its citizens can retire with full benefits at 55 years of age. In the US, people don't even have that benefit, as they need to get to 65 or 67 to get full benefits. Why should the Greeks get that benefit? Oh, I get it: the bankers have to fund it, even if the Greeks have little they produce.

'May' be true?  'May' be true?  Do you mean that if I stretch my imagination far enough it might fit within the confines of remote possibility?  Please, it is either true or it is not true. 
Secondly, I do not think that Greece's entire financial policy was based on the desire to retire at 55.  What kind of idiocy is that?  They borrowed heavily in order to retire at 55?  Abegi!!

nlMediator:


I won't waste one second defending the bankers, IMF, World Bank, etc.  But ignoring personal and national responsibility and looking for someone to dump all the blame on is the kind of pastime that has kept the developing world underdeveloped. Keep up with it, if it makes you happy. And that national serfdom you decry would not be very late in coming.

Oh, before I forget, I have noticed one single solution from you about these problems. It's all about blame and stoking passions, which does nobody any good at the end of the day.

How have I ignored personal and national responsibility?  This thread is about the Banking system.  If you want to discuss politicians and borrowers why you no go open ya own thread na?  You're not under duress.  At least you are no longer trying to defend bankers.  I'm not disagreeing with you that they collude with politicians.  They also collude with the Media, big time.  That is why the internet is one of the best things that has happened in 300 years for human freedom. 

Are you interested in hearing solutions now?  Really?  Cos we can move on to that soon enough.  What brought this whole affair up is the advent of Islamic banking to Nigeria?  I have also pointed to the idea of creating money based on Value rather than debt, as discussed in the video above.  We can look deeper into these and other systems later on. 

At the moment we are still making diagnosis of the problem.  No doctor is going to present a solution without a proper diagnosis.  So please don't bully us from taking stock of the situation.

nlMediator:

US is struggling to pay its debts? And you got this information from where?

ON August 2, a deadline little more than two weeks away, [size=14pt]the US government faces a default for the first time in history on its $US14.3 trillion ($13.3 trillion) debt.[/size]

President Barack Obama is staring down Republican Party leaders in congress over a looming government debt crisis that threatens to throw the US economy and others around the world into turmoil.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/economics/world-holds-its-breath-as-us-plays-with-fire-on-debt-and-default/story-e6frg926-1226095583583

How can you ask me that?  It's been in every newspaper for the last couple of days.  Don't you watch the news?  What country do you live in? 

(Reuters) - Republican lawmakers are "playing with fire" by contemplating even a brief debt default as a means to force deeper government spending cuts, an adviser to China's central bank said on Wednesday.

The idea of a technical default -- essentially delaying interest payments for a few days -- has gained backing from a growing number of mainstream Republicans who see it as a price worth paying if it forces the White House to slash spending, Reuters reported on Tuesday.

But any form of default could destabilize the global economy and sour already tense relations with big U.S. creditors such as China, government officials and investors warn.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/08/us-usa-debt-bondholders-idUSTRE75718320110608

ke, has said it is in the world's interests that the US can come to an agreement on its debt crisis very soon.

The US national debt is more than $14 trillion and talks between Congress and the Obama administration appear close to deadlock.

If no deal is reached in the next three weeks, the United States could theoretically default.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14149813

While many economists say a genuine default is unlikely because politicians in Washington will ultimately agree on a way to raise the debt ceiling, naysayers in Washington have downplayed the potential consequences such as higher interest rates and inflation.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Politics/anatomy-debt-default-united-states/story?id=13940811

THIS NEWS IS EVERYWHERE!

nlMediator:

On Iceland, you do not even see the contradiction in your own opinions. They got away from the evil bankers and not only did the bankers not capture and slice them into pieces, but they're actually doing better. Yet, you don't wonder why everybody is not doing the same? No, it's better to say that the bankers are so powerful, nobody can cross them. Not even refuse their loans, let alone dare not to pay.

To go back to your argument against people being forced to give pastors their money.  There are many people who walk away from these churches and the pastors do not 'capture them and slice them into pieces, and they're actually doing better.'  And yes, I do wonder why everybody else isn't doing the same. 

I did not say that bankers are ALL-powerful and nobody can cross them.  I said they were powerful, and that is undeniable.  I said that people are afraid to cross them, and that is undeniable.  I can see that there is no point getting vexed with you for twisting my words. You won't change, vexation is futile.  Besides I need you here to give me a sounding board that I can dialogue with.  So I'll be nice. 

nlMediator:


Man, this is becoming tiring. Look for a better topic to post on - one that will help Nigeria and humanity.

You see, I do believe that this topic will help Nigeria and humanity.  When people better understand the forces around them the reasons why things (their lives) are the way they are, then they are better equipped to do something about it to improve it. 

At the moment my people run to fake pastors and Imams and babalawos to pray for them to deal with issues that these so-called spiritual leaders do not understand themselves.  What is going on in Greece should have happened in Nigeria in 1981 when Austerity Measures were first introduced.  Alas my people have such a high tolerance for pain.  And we are much too prayerful. While prayer is good, the wrong prayer at the wrong time is unhelpful.

My People sef dey fear too much
we fear for the tings we no seee eee eee
we fear for the air around us
we fear to fight for freedom, we fear to fight for happiness
we always get reason to fear. 

-Fela

Pastor AIO:

Is that really what you despise? Yes, you're right. I was wrong about Bush incurring 14T of debt in 8 years. I said that cos I was aware that Clinton had done much to reduce the deficit (he actually left it at surplus) so when I saw the debt was 14T I thought 'wow! that much!!!'. I couldn't imagine the kind of deficit that could leave the debt mountain that high. However that is why you are here, to make sure that I don't get away with such shoddy research. And this is why I insist that people should do their own research rather than swallow what they are told hook line and sinker.

However your statement that I am writing such rubbish disguised as facts would suggest that all I've written is rubbish, not just that bracketed statement. Can you say that, really?

'May' be true? 'May' be true? Do you mean that if I stretch my imagination far enough it might fit within the confines of remote possibility? Please, it is either true or it is not true.
Secondly, I do not think that Greece's entire financial policy was based on the desire to retire at 55. What kind of idiocy is that? They borrowed heavily in order to retire at 55? Abegi!!


How have I ignored personal and national responsibility? This thread is about the Banking system. If you want to discuss politicians and borrowers why you no go open ya own thread na? You're not under duress. At least you are no longer trying to defend bankers. I'm not disagreeing with you that they collude with politicians. They also collude with the Media, big time. That is why the internet is one of the best things that has happened in 300 years for human freedom.

Are you interested in hearing solutions now? Really? Cos we can move on to that soon enough. What brought this whole affair up is the advent of Islamic banking to Nigeria? I have also pointed to the idea of creating money based on Value rather than debt, as discussed in the video above. We can look deeper into these and other systems later on.

At the moment we are still making diagnosis of the problem. No doctor is going to present a solution without a proper diagnosis. So please don't bully us from taking stock of the situation.

You're right that Clinton had a surplus, but that was budget surplus that did not change the already accumulated debt. While the deficits add to the debt, surpluses do not necessarily erase the debt, although I believe Clinton also made some effort in paying down some of the debt. Bush accumulated 5 T in 8 years, while Obama is approaching 4 T in less than 3 years. The wars, effect of 9/11, recession, prescription drug coverage, etc all contributed the huge deficits and debt.

On Greece, they're rioting on the streets because they don't want to lose the generous package they have, including retirement at age 55. If they accept those conditions, some of their fiscal woes would be reduced and their debt sitaution wouldn't be as dire.

Please continue with your diagnosis. I'll patiently wait for the prescription.

Pastor AIO:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/economics/world-holds-its-breath-as-us-plays-with-fire-on-debt-and-default/story-e6frg926-1226095583583

How can you ask me that? It's been in every newspaper for the last couple of days. Don't you watch the news? What country do you live in?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/08/us-usa-debt-bondholders-idUSTRE75718320110608
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14149813
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Politics/anatomy-debt-default-united-states/story?id=13940811

THIS NEWS IS EVERYWHERE!

To go back to your argument against people being forced to give pastors their money. There are many people who walk away from these churches and the pastors do not 'capture them and slice them into pieces, and they're actually doing better.' And yes, I do wonder why everybody else isn't doing the same.

I did not say that bankers are ALL-powerful and nobody can cross them. I said they were powerful, and that is undeniable. I said that people are afraid to cross them, and that is undeniable. I can see that there is no point getting vexed with you for twisting my words. You won't change, vexation is futile. Besides I need you here to give me a sounding board that I can dialogue with. So I'll be nice.

You see, I do believe that this topic will help Nigeria and humanity. When people better understand the forces around them the reasons why things (their lives) are the way they are, then they are better equipped to do something about it to improve it.

At the moment my people run to fake pastors and Imams and babalawos to pray for them to deal with issues that these so-called spiritual leaders do not understand themselves. What is going on in Greece should have happened in Nigeria in 1981 when Austerity Measures were first introduced. Alas my people have such a high tolerance for pain. And we are much too prayerful. While prayer is good, the wrong prayer at the wrong time is unhelpful.

My People sef dey fear too much
we fear for the tings we no seee eee eee
we fear for the air around us
we fear to fight for freedom, we fear to fight for happiness
we always get reason to fear.

-Fela

The "News Everywhere" has nothing to with ability or struggle to pay the debt. It has to do with raising the debt ceiling. And whether the raise should be conditioned on offsetting spending cuts and revenue increases. That is, Obama wants to borrow 2.5 T, but Republicans want him to cut 2.5 T in spending elsewhere before they'll let him borrow. Obama agrees to some cuts, but wants to raise taxes too or close tax loopholes to get more revenue to attack the deficit. US credit card will be maxed out on August 2 or thereabout and if it is not raised by then, the country may not be able to pay its debts. Reason is that you need approval of the legislature to borrow to pay the bills. Not that the country doen't have the ability to borrow or the means to meet its debt obligations. The US receives about 2.3 T in revenue annually, or almost 200 B a month. Anybody would agree that alone is enough to service a 14T debt. And for a country with annual GDP of about 14 T (which is one-quarter of the world's total GDP), 14 T is huge, but not that huge. As Obama said at a press conference today, the US is not anywhere near the situation of Greece, Spain or Portugal.

As to twisting your words, I have no reason to do that here or anywhere. I need to start reading you more closely, though, so I don't misunderstand you.

nlMediator:

As to twisting your words, I have no reason to do that here or anywhere. I need to start reading you more closely, though, so I don't misunderstand you.

Yes, I've always suspected that you weren't even reading what I was writing. And you weren't watching the videos either. You didn't even address a single point raised in them. I hope it wasn't arrogance.

nlMediator:

The "News Everywhere" has nothing to with ability or struggle to pay the debt. It has to do with raising the debt ceiling. And whether the raise should be conditioned on offsetting spending cuts and revenue increases. That is, Obama wants to borrow 2.5 T, but Republicans want him to cut 2.5 T in spending elsewhere before they'll let him borrow. Obama agrees to some cuts, but wants to raise taxes too or close tax loopholes to get more revenue to attack the deficit. US credit card will be maxed out on August 2 or thereabout and if it is not raised by then, the country may not be able to pay its debts. Reason is that you need approval of the legislature to borrow to pay the bills. Not that the country doen't have the ability to borrow or the means to meet its debt obligations. The US receives about 2.3 T in revenue annually, or almost 200 B a month. Anybody would agree that alone is enough to service a 14T debt. And for a country with annual GDP of about 14 T (which is one-quarter of the world's total GDP), 14 T is huge, but not that huge. As Obama said at a press conference today, the US is not anywhere near the situation of Greece, Spain or Portugal.

I once spent about 6 months on Nairaland arguing over the word 'staggering'. (okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but it did feel like 6 months). I'm not about to get into a long drawn out thing over the word 'struggling'.
By Law American Gov't cannot borrow more than 15T (or thereabouts). They are fast approaching the ceiling. The only painless way that they can service their debt is to borrow more money. So they need to raise the debt ceiling. Congress must allow the gov't to borrow 2.5T more, right?. But Congress insists on cuts somewhere, abi?

Okay o, but me, If I have debts to service and the only way that I can service them is to sell my car, sell my furniture, and withdraw my baby from school then, in my definition of 'struggling', I would say that I was indeed struggling. Maybe that doesn't seem like a struggle to you, in that case I would have to accept your understanding of struggle is different from mine.

The sheer fact that Obama is actually mentioning that US is nowhere near Greece, spain and portugal should be enough to tell you that something is up. Why mention it unless there are suspicions being raised that it is so?

Pastor AIO:

Yes, I've always suspected that you weren't even reading what I was writing. And you weren't watching the videos either. You didn't even address a single point raised in them. I hope it wasn't arrogance.


I once spent about 6 months on Nairaland arguing over the word 'staggering'. (okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but it did feel like 6 months). I'm not about to get into a long drawn out thing over the word 'struggling'.
By Law American Gov't cannot borrow more than 15T (or thereabouts). They are fast approaching the ceiling. The only painless way that they can service their debt is to borrow more money. So they need to raise the debt ceiling. Congress must allow the gov't to borrow 2.5T more, right?. But Congress insists on cuts somewhere, abi?

Okay o, but me, If I have debts to service and the only way that I can service them is to sell my car, sell my furniture, and withdraw my baby from school then, in my definition of 'struggling', I would say that I was indeed struggling. Maybe that doesn't seem like a struggle to you, in that case I would have to accept your understanding of struggle is different from mine.

The sheer fact that Obama is actually mentioning that US is nowhere near Greece, spain and portugal should be enough to tell you that something is up. Why mention it unless there are suspicions being raised that it is so?

No, it's not arrogance. More like impatience. Or perhaps laziness. I figured that since you've mentioned what the videos were about, I don't need to watch them, if time is tight.

It's not about the US selling its "cars" and essentials. Take for example, the defense budget. It has ballooned hundreds of billions of dollars annually from when Clinton was in power. Or tax loopholes for the rich, including the inefficient ethanol subsidies. If Clinton was president today, he won't be able to balance the budget. Are you saying that going back to numbers closer to where it was under Clinton is like trekking or selling your car? Do you think America was worse off then?

The reason people want spending cuts or revenue raising to offset the new borrowing is that they think the US has borrowed enough and should keep its debt at about 14T and start paying down. It's not because they're struggling to pay back. In fact, the US is so creditworthy that it has no problem getting creditors to buy its bonds. Some economists like Paul Krugman even think it's crazy NOT to borrow more at this time while rates are so low and the US can get so much money at little interest and pay back later. Greece and co are not in that position. Nobody wants to lend them anything, unless at about 25% interest as opposed to less than 5% for the US. Obama had to mention Greece because a lot of people know little about economics and think the situations are similar.

Simply put, if you earn $220, 000, you'll not be struggling to pay a mortgage of $1.4 million at 4% interest, since your mortgae would be roughly at $6,000. Since you have no taxes to pay (as the government), how on earth can you be struggling to pay it? Then, factor in the fact that you can earn more from other sources (government raising revenue). The only question is do you need to live in that kind of house when you can get cheaper ones or wait till you earn more. But struggle does not come in.

This NLmediator guy, your reasoning is very funny. I don't know if it is because you are desperately trying to defend the indefensible or if that is actually how your brain functions.

Again I have to be careful not to allow you to dissipate my argument by shooting off in all sorts of directions that are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

The point that I was making when I brought this whole matter of national debt up was that the international banking cartels plan to load a country with debts which when it cannot pay back (which is just a matter of time) they will then seize the National assets of that country. They can even go as far as dictating policy to the government of that country. In other words that country loses it's sovereignty and is ruled by the bank.

Somehow somehow sha we ended up arguing about the credit status of the USA.

nlMediator:

No, it's not arrogance. More like impatience. Or perhaps laziness. I figured that since you've mentioned what the videos were about, I don't need to watch them, if time is tight.

How about deliberate obsfucation, and panic, and defensiveness. The commentaries that I made on the videos are only cursory. I did not really write out the entire arguments in the video. In the video also there are suggestions for alternative financial system so you request for me to provide solution rather than just complain would have been met too, if you had watched the videos.
You know what? It is still not too late to go back and watch the videos.

nlMediator:


It's not about the US selling its "cars" and essentials. Take for example, the defense budget. It has ballooned hundreds of billions of dollars annually from when Clinton was in power. Or tax loopholes for the rich, including the inefficient ethanol subsidies. If Clinton was president today, he won't be able to balance the budget. Are you saying that going back to numbers closer to where it was under Clinton is like trekking or selling your car? Do you think America was worse off then?

This is a classic example of why I think that you don't really think about what you are saying before you start to type. I said the US is struggling to pay it's debts and you're telling me that they've got such astronomical costs like 2 wars in Afghan and Iraq etc. How does that mean that they are not struggling. Quite the contrary, that would explain (at least in part) exactly why they are struggling to pay. I don't know what Clinton being president today has to do with it. (but please don't explain what you mean cos I'm quite sure it is irrelevant to the topic).
No, I'm not saying balancing the budget is like selling your car. I am saying that if you have to cut essential services, and sell essential national assets then that is like selling your car. Again I am befuddled with the way you reason.

I never suggested that a balanced budget means that you are worse off than if you are in deficit. What could I have said to have given you that idea?

nlMediator:

The reason people want spending cuts or revenue raising to offset the new borrowing is that they think the US has borrowed enough and should keep its debt at about 14T and start paying down. It's not because they're struggling to pay back. In fact, the US is so creditworthy that it has no problem getting creditors to buy its bonds. Some economists like Paul Krugman even think it's crazy NOT to borrow more at this time while rates are so low and the US can get so much money at little interest and pay back later. Greece and co are not in that position. Nobody wants to lend them anything, unless at about 25% interest as opposed to less than 5% for the US. Obama had to mention Greece because a lot of people know little about economics and think the situations are similar.

I'm sorry, but, in my book when the only way that you can service your debt is to borrow more money then you are struggling. And the reason that this is on the news so much is because the gov't by law is not allowed to borrow more than 14.3T dollars and Obama is arguing with congress to change the law so that the gov't can borrow more.

As regards creditworthiness, US is rated AAA which is the highest credit rating that is why it can borrow cheaply and find creditors easily. but if the ratings should drop then automatically their interest rates will rise. The higher your rating the cheaper it is to get loans, ie the less interest you pay.

July 14 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stock-index futures fell and the euro strengthened versus the dollar after Moody's Investors Service said the American government may lose the Aaa credit rating it's held since 1917.

Standard & Poor's 500 Index futures expiring in September dropped 0.5 percent to 1,306.20 at 8:49 a.m. in Tokyo. Contracts on Japan's Nikkei 225 Stock Average slid to 9,930 in Singapore, compared with 9,950 in Osaka yesterday. The euro rose to $1.4255 from about $1.4170 before the announcement. New Zealand's dollar jumped to a record after its economy expanded more than twice as much as the central bank forecast. Gold rallied for a ninth day.

Moody's began its first U.S. review since 1995 as talks to raise the $14.3 trillion debt limit stall, adding to concern political gridlock will lead to a default. Even a temporary default would likely have "large systemic effects" on the economy and Treasury finances by disrupting money funds, the repurchase-agreement market and foreign investor willingness to buy the government's debt, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.

"This is somewhat unprecedented," said Walter "Bucky" Hellwig, who helps manage $17 billion at BB&T Wealth Management in Birmingham, Alabama. "It just creates all kinds of questions about how do you play it? Nobody thinks they will actually default, but a downgrade could mean maybe higher rates."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/07/13/bloomberg1376-LOAM306K50Y401-7DRT5S8T972NHUE9CJ1RR9JM41.DTL

The difference between the interest rates that US is paying and that which Greece is paying is the difference between an AAA rating and a CCC rating. The US has been threatened with a rating drop to D. Lower than Greece.

Obama had to mention Greece because a lot of people know little about economics and think the situations are similar.

Are you saying that the analysts at S&P and Moody's know little about economics. They are the one's doing the ratings.
Here is a report on what Obama actually said:

"Contrary to what some folks say, we're not Greece. We're not Portugal," he said, discussing the political battle over the US government deficit.

While deeply indebted Greece, Portugal and Ireland are being propped up by massive bailouts from the European Union and International Monetary Fund -- and are expected to need still more money -- Obama said the United States could solve its own problems with his long-term deficit reduction plan.

"We simply need to make these tough choices and be willing to take on our (political) bases. And everybody knows it," he said.

Obama admitted the fundamental underlying problem "that our debt and deficits are too big" -- the same problem of the weak eurozone periphery countries.

But he said there are clear and viable options for fixing the problem over the long term, that only require political will from both political parties.

He also though recognized that the United States was, like Greece and Portugal, facing a risk of defaulting on its debt, which he said would lead to economic "Armageddon."

There is a crucial difference: Greece is most at threat of defaulting because its finances have deteriorated so much it cannot raise any more money at reasonable rates on the commercial debt market.

In comparison, the United States still enjoys very cheap borrowing rates, and can easily borrow more over the medium term.

But it could be forced to default if the Congress does not increase the statutory debt ceiling by about August 2.

Republicans in Congress are refusing Obama's entreaties to raise the ceiling unless they can get a deficit reduction plan that meets their standard of all spending cuts and no tax increases.

http://news.ph.msn.com/business/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5052396

nlMediator:

Simply put, if you earn $220, 000, you'll not be struggling to pay a mortgage of $1.4 million at 4% interest, since your mortgae would be roughly at $6,000. Since you have no taxes to pay (as the government), how on earth can you be struggling to pay it? Then, factor in the fact that you can earn more from other sources (government raising revenue). The only question is do you need to live in that kind of house when you can get cheaper ones or wait till you earn more. But struggle does not come in.

Okay, let us stick with your example. A Man earns 220,000 and has a monthly mortgage payment of 6,000 a year. He also has four children in private education each costing 10,000 a year. That makes 40, 000. On top of that one yeye guy call Afghanistan came to find his trouble and he had to litigate resulting in legal fees of 100, 000 a year. If it was only Mr Afghanistan that would be small, but no another guy called Iraq came to raq with him. Another legal cost of 100,000. Then his ageing mother fell ill adding medical costs of 200,000. But it is okay cos the guy is thinking of taking another loan out. However his wife, with whom he does his financial planning, insists that he must not borrow anymore money. If he wants to borrow money he must cut cost elsewhere. That is what Obama means by 'tough decisions'. Does he withdraw his children from the great school that they are going to, or does he allow his mother to die. Or does he default on paying his mortgage. Tough decisions = a struggle.

@Pastoaio; [Quote]Again I have to be careful not to allow you to dissipate my argument by shooting off in all sorts of directions that are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

The point that I was making when I brought this whole matter of national debt up was that the international banking cartels plan to load a country with debts which when it cannot pay back (which is just a matter of time) they will then seize the National assets of that country. They can even go as far as dictating policy to the government of that country. In other words that country loses it's sovereignty and is ruled by the bank. [/Quote]ini ti iwo paddy olopele yi tun wa ni yi ni?

what concerns ifa worshipers with worldly affairs, especially global finance? the awos are waiting for you to go and make the empty incantation; ofo, that you are so known for.

let the christians argue against islam. the muslims do not need you as an ally. comot for there.

Sweetnecta:

@Pastoaio; ini ti iwo paddy olopele yi tun wa ni yi ni?

what concerns ifa worshipers with worldly affairs, especially global finance? the awos are waiting for you to go and make the empty incantation; ofo, that you are so known for.

let the christians argue against islam. the muslims do not need you as an ally. comot for there.

No be today you start to craze. Abeg no come spoil this thread for us. Nobody mention islam here.

^^^^^^^^^^; i tried not to abuse you. it will be personal. and like that 'personal' will be out of islam.

cry me a river as a title may throw you off, the reason you think it is not about Islam.

the banking the op made the center of his thread is 'islamic banking'.


i guess in your awoyinka mind this is not Islam. darn babalawo.

Sweetnecta:

@Pastoaio; ini ti iwo paddy olopele yi tun wa ni yi ni?

what concerns ifa worshipers with worldly affairs, especially global finance? the awos are waiting for you to go and make the empty incantation; ofo, that you are so known for.

let the christians argue against islam. the muslims do not need you as an ally. comot for there.

Pastor AIO:

No be today you start to craze.  Abeg no come spoil this thread for us.  Nobody mention islam here.

Sweetnecta:

^^^^^^^^^^; i tried not to abuse you. it will be personal. and like that 'personal' will be out of islam.

cry me a river as a title may throw you off, the reason you think it is not about Islam.

the banking the op made the center of his thread is 'islamic banking'.


i guess in your awoyinka mind this is not Islam. darn babalawo.

So show some respect for the well-versed man and give due recognition of it.
In spite of the mystery surrounding him and his occasional funniness, he is a rounded and objective maverick
Evidently he is an avant-garde and his theology is rarely known to be dogmatically opinionated, influenced by emotions or personal prejudices nevertheless do not be fooled because his actual conviction or the revelation of his belief system is shrouded with secrecy and closely guarded which is why perhaps some have surrendered to the idea that he may well be a necessary evil
Without a seductress Joseph would have not be Prime Minister. Without a goliath, David would have not been King
Not implying PastorAIO is evil but that he is a recognised authority and always considered persona granta.

@Pastoraio; you already have a replacement of the guy called deepsight by the above poster. Look at how is worshiping you. he has made you a god. he says you are a 'persona granta'. funny.

your follower forgets that many of us see you as a mere idolator; which is what you are. sometimes you act as a bully, the reason you defeated deepsight by attrition, sending poor deepsight away for good. the next man to get the ax will be the one raving about you.



@Ka-kaww!; what so special about an ifa man who covers himself with a christian title? is he not an ifa worshiper anymore, or are you saying being an ifa man is now a thing to be proud of? is ifa a thing outside the sphere of the yorubas? do the twis of ghana indulge in it?

respect is due to Allah. and from human to human cultural viewpoint; i am yoruba and your pastor is not my elder and he is not a man of honor. there is no reason for me to respect him. i see him as a fire worshiper. and you know how muslims see idolators.

Sweetnecta:

@Pastoraio; you already have a replacement of the guy called deepsight by the above poster. Look at how is worshiping you. he has made you a god. he says you are a 'persona granta'. funny.

your follower forgets that many of us see you as a mere idolator; which is what you are. sometimes you act as a bully, the reason you defeated deepsight by attrition, sending poor deepsight away for good. the next man to get the ax will be the one raving about you.

@Ka-kaww!; what so special about an ifa man who covers himself with a christian title? is he not an ifa worshiper anymore, or are you saying being an ifa man is now a thing to be proud of? is ifa a thing outside the sphere of the yorubas? do the twis of ghana indulge in it?

respect is due to Allah. and from human to human cultural viewpoint; i am yoruba and your pastor is not my elder and he is not a man of honor. there is no reason for me to respect him. i see him as a fire worshiper. and you know how muslims see idolators.

smh, grabbing the wrong end of the stick. Not getting the capitalism stuff. This uncalled-for ignorance, is beyond doubt legendary

You're right that the thread should not be derailed by injecting irrelevant stuff. But you invited them. I left you alone until you started talking about the US economy, with wrong facts.

"No, I'm not saying balancing the budget is like selling your car. I am saying that if you have to cut essential services, and sell essential national assets then that is like selling your car. Again I am befuddled with the way you reason."

I never said you did. I understood you perfectly. My response is that nobody is cutting essential services, at least the kind of services comparable to an individual selling his car. You need to familiarize yourself better with the suggested cuts and you'll see it has nothing to do with what you're saying. Are they tough choices? Of course, they are. But if I downgrade from drinking a bottle of wine every day to one every week, that may be tough, but that does not mean it's real toughness, compared to what people all over the world are going through. Unlike Greece & Co, US has so many choices for dealing with its debt and deficit that it has not tapped into. E.g., many oil and gas leases that it can sell. Or raising taxes, since unlike virtually everywhere in Europe that has tax rates of 50, 60 % or more, the highest marginal rate in the US is about 35%.

"I never suggested that a balanced budget means that you are worse off than if you are in deficit. What could I have said to have given you that idea?"

Again, never said you did. I said Clinton ran a government without the kind of expenses the US has now, and I gave defense as an example. Spending has increased dramatically over the past few years and people want it reduced. Unless, you're suggesting that spending at Clinton levels means things are tough, I don't understand what else you're saying.

I sugest you look more closely at the debt ceiling talk. That you even think for a moment that the US would be downgraded from AAA to D is puzzling, unless you're trying to pull my legs. The law does not necdessarily say that the US can only borrow 14.3 T. There is no limit to amount that can be borrowed, if there are willing lenders. What the law is is that under the Constituion, only the Congress can authorize borrowing. They do so from time to time, including about 7 times under Bush when they raised the debt ceiling without incident. Under Obama, they're simply saying that there's too much debt and there should be no more borrowing unless some current spending is stopped. Congress could easily raise the limit without such condition. Moody and S&P are talking of downgrade because the stalemate may lead to a default. They all know the US' default would not because of struggle or lack of money. For a country that takes in 200 B monthly, less than 10% of which can pay interest on the debt, there's no cause for alarm today.

Could there be cause for alarm tomorrow? Sure. That's why some of the leaders are arguing for reduced borrowing and spending. That your major point is that debt can overwhelm a country someday is not an excuse or license to claim it is happening to the US TODAY. If you want to be taken seriously in a discussion of economics.

And I'll make out time to watch the videos or at least some of them. I'm happy to hear that they contain some solutions.

Zeitgeist Addendum
[flash=400,326]http://video.google.co.uk/googleplayer.swf?docid=-7308171700962325804&hl[/flash]

Pastor AIO:
. .
Are you saying that the analysts at S&P and Moody's know little about economics.  They are the one's doing the ratings. . . 

nlMediator:
. . .  Moody and S&P are talking of downgrade because the stalemate may lead to a default. They all know the US' default would not because of struggle or lack of money. For a country that takes in 200 B monthly, less than 10% of which can pay interest on the debt, there's no cause for alarm today.

Could there be cause for alarm tomorrow? Sure. That's why some of the leaders are arguing for reduced borrowing and spending. That your major point is that debt can overwhelm a country someday is not an excuse or license to claim it is happening to the US TODAY. If you want to be taken seriously in a discussion of economics.

And what rating did all these Moodys, S&Ps and other (including more localized) agencies give Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Nigerian banks before the 'melt down' in each case?

Beyond that, I agree that the threatened US 'default' (if at all it happens) will essentially be a technical default rather than one due to proper inability to service the facilities.

Ka-Kaww!:

Zeitgeist Addendum
[flash=400,326]http://video.google.co.uk/googleplayer.swf?docid=-7308171700962325804&hl[/flash]

Wow, what a great film. I had to watch it twice and I think I still need to watch it one more time to fully absorb it. What blows my mind is the way they said many of the things I was saying in almost the same way. I'm thinking maybe I've seen it before and forgot but it subconsciously influenced my thinking. Or maybe it is collective unconscious.

Ka-Kaww!:

smh, grabbing the wrong end of the stick. Not getting the capitalism stuff. This uncalled-for ignorance, is beyond doubt legendary

I beg, leave the guy. It is my fault for giving him any attention. Thanks for the support though.

capitalism; as in banking and finance is my primary function in the organization i work in.

i do not intend to discuss cyberspace amateurish financing.

if people like me are allowed to organize the finances of Nigeria, she will be out of debt and financially solvent, in less than 6 months top.


so boys; your empty talks without ever engaged in project financing in your entire lives is just that; empty talk.

Please has anyone else watched the zeitgeist film. I'm curious to know what other people think. Any criticisms?

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8[/flash]

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAqG51uwzMI&feature=related[/flash]

Sweetnecta:

capitalism; as in banking and finance is my primary function in the organization i work in.

i do not intend to discuss cyberspace amateurish financing.

if people like me are allowed to organize the finances of Nigeria, she will be out of debt and financially solvent, in less than 6 months top.


so boys; your empty talks without ever engaged in project financing in your entire lives is just that; empty talk.

PEBCAK

^^^^^ what is it that you are saying that can't be spelled out like a real person?

What PEBCAK is, only you know. of course Allah the Almighty knows your thought.

Sweetnecta:

^^^^^ what is it that you are saying that can't be spelled out like a real person?

What PEBCAK is, only you know. of course Allah the Almighty knows your thought.

Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard

The Worst Case (probably) of IMF interference was in Argentina.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs[/flash]

What happened in Argentina? How was it possible that in so rich a country so many people were hungry? The country had been ransacked by a new form of aggression committed in time of peace and in a democracy. A daily and silent violence that caused greater social disruption, more emigration and death than the terrorism of the dictatorship and the Falkland islands war.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whVSw5X2pVU[/flash]

Unfortunately these videos are subtitles all the way but it is worth it. It mirrors exactly what happened in Nigeria but more extreme. It will give you an idea of the systematic application of evil in this world. It is important for God-fearing people to be aware of this.

As nigerians we should be asking how it is possible for an oil rich country that was so overwhelmed with petrodollars in the early 70s that it's head of State, General Gowon, reputedly said that nigeria's biggest problem was HOW to spend it, can go from that to a state of indebtedness. Remember what John Perkins, the Economic Hitman, says about how they operate. What happened in Argentina runs parallel with what happened with Nigeria in the 70s. Credit is offered at a low interest rate in the 70s. By the early 80s the interest rate is jacked up and the country begins to struggle to pay.

In fact I think, perversely, that one of the things that saved nigeria and nigerians is our corruption and the difficulty of doing business in Nigeria for foreigners. Not to mention the high likelihood of getting 419-ed.

28 August 2011 Last updated at 16:41

Christianity and capitalism: Investing in the Lord
By Johny Cassidy Business producer, BBC News

St Margaret Lothbury Services at St Margaret Lothbury are attended by City professionals

It's in St Mark's Gospel that we're told that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Bible also tells us that the love of money is the root of all evil, yet the seemingly sin-ridden worlds of investments and big banking are cohabiting quite happily with Christianity.

St Margaret Lothbury is one of the oldest churches in London. It's the parish church of the Bank of England and other financial institutions in the square mile, but unlike other Church of England churches, it has no services on a Sunday.

Weekdays however are a completely different matter. At a recent service I watched hundreds of expensively dressed City workers dance and sing and pray along with a Christian band who were providing the music for the worshippers.

The Reverend Jeremy Crossley has been the vicar at St Margaret's for more than 11 years. He thinks there's no conflict between Christianity and making money.

"As long as you're being honest about what you do, it's not a sin to make money," he says.

"God rewards industriousness, and that's what most of the people who come here are.

"Good, hard-working honest people who want to make money. No sin there."

The latest annual report from the Church of England (CofE) shows that despite global uncertainty about the future of the economy, its investment fund rose by more than 15% to £5.3bn last year.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Eve Poole

The parable of the talents in the Bible shows us the reward of investing”

End Quote Eve Poole Theologian, Ashridge Business School

The fund, which goes to help the CofE mission and to pay out the thousands of pensions for retired clergy, operates under a strict policy of socially responsible investment.
Ethical investments

For the Roman Catholic Church, the Christian Brothers Investment Service (CBIS) does the same kind of investing, managing about $4bn (£6.6bn) worth of assets for thousands of various institutions across the world.

The Methodist Church in England also has a similar investment vehicle, with a fund of about £1bn to invest in what it considers ethical areas.

Bill Seddon is the chief executive of the Central Finance Board (CFB) for the Methodist Church. He explains how its investment policy works.

"We have a team of professional fund managers whose approach integrates the work of searching for companies with good financial characteristics with those that also meet our ethical criteria," he says.

"There is also a committee who's job it is to ensure that any suggested investment adheres to the principles of Methodism, and that the faith and beliefs are never compromised."

The role of the CBIS for the Roman Catholic Church, the Church Commissioners for The Church of England and the Central Finance Board for Methodism has changed over the years.

They're a lot more proactive now in trying to engage with big companies in order to try to get them to operate in a more socially responsible way and to spread the ministry of the church. It's about engagement.
Pornography

For years the Methodist Church's CFB refused to invest in BSkyB, citing its involvement and ownership of several porn channels.
Bill Seddon Bill Seddon says Methodism will not allow investment in certain industries

Mr Seddon explains: "Methodism is very clear on pornography. It's not something we believe we should as a society be investing in.

"That's why we have actively been engaging with BSkyB over their ownership of pornographic television channels, an engagement that has led to the TV provider deciding to let go of their interests in these channels.

"This means we can look again at investing with them."

The CFB annual report for 2011 also shows that there has been dialogue with numerous other companies - including BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Nestle and Unilever - over decisions they have made in the past and might make in the future in regards to their operating policy, something the CFB argues is changing attitudes in boardrooms.

Mr Seddon says: "We find that most companies are willing to enter into dialogue on ethical issues as they find it helpful to know our views, as long-term investors, on social justice issues.

"The long-term nature of our interest means that mutual trust can be established and we can follow through on issues over a long period of time.

"This is very much in keeping with the idea of Methodism and spreading the word."
Conflict of interest?

All the major religions argue they need money to move forward with their teachings.

The upkeep of existing churches and the administering of their beliefs, not to mention the thousands of pensions doesn't come cheap, but what about philosophically?

Can a religion really exist along with capitalism? Surely there has to be a conflict of interest?

Eve Poole is a theologian who teaches ethics on the master of business administration (MBA) course at Ashridge Business School.

She's also the author of The Church and Capitalism.

She thinks healthy engagement in money is good for Christianity.

"The parable of the talents in the Bible shows us the reward of investing," says Ms Poole.

"Two servants are given money by their master when he goes away. One invests and makes money for his master whilst the other buries it making nothing.

"It's the shrewd investor who gets rewarded."

So the Bible encourages risk for the benefit of future profit.

This is something Mr Seddon also believes is true.

"We live in a capitalist world. This however doesn't automatically mean it's bad," he says.

"It's up to each individual to decide in what capacity they're going to engage with it. Making money isn't inherently wrong… as long as it's used for the greater good."

Back at St Margaret Lothbury, as the music fades and the myriad of City workers leave the church to return to their desks, no doubt in order to make more and more money for their companies, one can't help but wonder what God would really make of it all.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14615704

This is a grave issue and one that is not being given due consideration in Church. What is ethical investing? Why should churches have a financial arm? Is the excuse of needing money to 'move forward with your teachings' really good enough. Especially for christians for whom it has been specified that should not be carried when they are spreading the gospel.

How far are Churches willing to 'follow the money' that they invest? Not very far from the sound of things. If you follow the money any significant distance you'll find that it most likely feeds straight into the pornography industries, drugs, arms and other such unethical industries. If you are truly looking for a profit then can you afford to be ethical? The church's investment will go towards contributing to the ills that modern capitalism is bringing upon the world.

These are things that the church needs to address. I'm a firm believer that Church money should not be used for anything other than Church work.

Revelation Chapter 6:

5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqN3amj6AcE&feature=player_embedded[/flash]

Hello Pastoraio,

I did enjoy this thread a lot. I would like to bring it back to life and further the discussion, especially with the development of crypto currency as an alternative to classical finance.