johnydon22:
This is the section where we have the most liberal minded folks especially my atheist friends. The subject of transgender is quite a sensitive one in the world today, so i am brining it again to this board.

And my argument is: A man cannot be a woman neither can a woman be a man

I want arguments that can possibly change my mind on this otherwise conservative view of human gender.

johnydon22:
This is the section where we have the most liberal minded folks especially my atheist friends. The subject of transgender is quite a sensitive one in the world today, so i am brining it again to this board.

And my argument is: A man cannot be a woman neither can a woman be a man

I want arguments that can possibly change my mind on this otherwise conservative view of human gender.

vaxx:
Your question is flawed. people don’t change their gender, they change their sex to match their gender, and its not a choice.

CAPSLOCKED:


[color=#990000]"CHANGE MY MIND" IS AT THE END OF THIS TOPIC. OH, WHAT A JOKE.

YOUR MIND HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE UP SINCE YOU EVER LEARNT ABOUT THIS TOPIC, AND THAT IS WHY NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES WE'VE HAD THIS DISCUSSION YOU NEVER LET GO OF YOUR OWN OPINION, NOR ACCEPT ANYTHING DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND SO I'M SURPRISED HOW YOU NEVER TIRE FROM TALKING ABOUT THIS EVERYTIME.

budaatum:
And people are more concerned about homosexuals.

It seems people can change their gender these days, though you need to be in a country that condones such things. Men dressed up as a girls in Thailand is a huge tourist puller, and a man dressed in iro and buba on the streets of Lagos would get chuckles. But when you start asking people to see you not as the gender you were born with there might be issues.

I find it silly really children having sex changes because they have cooked up in their head that they were born with the wrong organs! They should be sent to Nigeria to be cured. Worrying about what to feed you as a child would make you consider wrong gender not a topic of importance to bring up with mummy and daddy. Still here we are.

I can't convince you. I have met people who have changed their gender and have no reason to think different of them. There's a nice one in Tesco who is all laugh, and there's one who walks in my park in summer, though, I don't know how far they've gone since all I see is men dressed as women. They live their lives and let live so what's my problem?

I guess it could be when the person I hook up with at a bar turns out not to be the gender I thought they were. Hopefully, I'd be finding out before, and not afterwards!

johnydon22:


People change their sex?

Really?

Please elaborate

vaxx:
what you are talking about is sex change. Nothing like gender change

The definition of a man or a woman is not limited to a minor biological organ, or its reproductive purpose. Even if a man loses his penis in an accident, he still remains a man because his gender is not limited to his genitals,

the psychological identity is a factor too. Similarly someone having the genitals of a particular gender cannot define them completely if their psychological identity perceives itself as another gender.
All major psychiatrist and psychiatric bodies agree that it is more beneficial and plausible for the individual to conform to their psychological identity than their biological one.

johnydon22:
This is the section where we have the most liberal minded folks especially my atheist friends. The subject of transgender is quite a sensitive one in the world today, so i am brining it again to this board.

And my argument is: A man cannot be a woman neither can a woman be a man

I want arguments that can possibly change my mind on this otherwise conservative view of human gender.

johnydon22:


There seem to be a bit of a conflation here:

Sex = Male and Female
Gender = Man and Woman

Are we talking about similar things here?

actually agree.

Man means = Adult human male
woman means = Adult human female

For these things to be objectively factual, there must be absolute.

I think there is need to be sure of what we are talking about as highlighted above for me to go further

Martinez19:
I am with you on this one. A man cannot be a woman and a woman cannot be a man. Liberal folks need to distinguish between gender and sexual orientation. There are two genders and you can't switch.

vaxx:
Layman understanding, they are the same, scienctific speaking both are different. Sex is the biological identity you are born with. Gender is the socio-cultural stereotype that is fed into your system as a result of the society or environment.

""Absolute"" nothing of such in science, what we have are provisional.

johnydon22:
This is the section where we have the most liberal minded folks especially my atheist friends. The subject of transgender is quite a sensitive one in the world today, so i am brining it again to this board.

And my argument is: A man cannot be a woman neither can a woman be a man

I want arguments that can possibly change my mind on this otherwise conservative view of human gender.

johnydon22:


Isn't gender contingent on sex?

And how do we change sex? You implied that on your first comment.

Is this an absolute statement?

LordReed:


gender
/ˈdʒɛndə/
noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Nothing in this definition says it is impossible to change one's gender. As we are starting to see not even our biology is unmalleable.

vaxx:
that’s not actually true. Some people have genetic, hormonal and physical features typical of both male and female at the same time, so their biological sex isn’t clearly male or female. This is called ‘intersex’.

Surgery and hormones and clothing choices and are all ways to help the outside match the inside.

Also provisional. Till the mystery reveal itself.

johnydon22:


Tell me, how do you change male to female?

johnydon22:


What prompted me to open this thread was a Youtube video i was watching today.

So, some women created an Advert and posted at an ad space in Liverpool The ad read

Woman:
noun
"Adult human female"

Which is in fact the definition of woman. So, apparently it was offensive to transgender people and they petition to have the ad banner taken down.

One of the activists who wanted the post to be taken down and one of the women who posted the ads were connected to a tv show to argue on this event.

The woman said, they did nothing wrong other than post a literal objective truth, that asking someone not to post a truth in order not to offend someone is quite ludicrous.

The man disagreed and was asked to define "Woman"

He said "A woman is a person who says she is a [woman"

I was amazed because that definition didn't literally make sense at all. It didn't explain what the word "woman" meant and still used the word "Woman" in the definition of "Woman"

My mind was blown, it was funny but mind blowing.

johnydon22:
Intersex is a medical condition, it is actually an anomaly just like someone having an extra toe.

this doesn't really mean human sex isn't binary or gender not being contingent on sex.

So, we can change an XY into XX?

Because being male or female transcends these criterias listed above. I can wear a gown and top, this doesn't make me a woman.

An effeminate man is in fact male.

So, how do we do this exactly?

Meaning we cannot be sure it is true then, so how do we trust your statement?

LordReed:


As a social and cultural construct, all it would take was to appropriate the respective social and cultural symbols. We even say it to people all the time "why are you doing like a woman/man?".

vaxx:
not true, most forms of intersex do not cause any disabilities, deformities or similar malfunctions, The overwhelming majority of intersex individuals grow up and live their lives without any medical issues..

Not true either.

Genetically they will always be who they were born with. Psychologically they may not. Which is the point of discussion.here.

johnydon22:
LOL. Having an extra toe isn't a disability either doesn't make it less an anomaly. So, how exactly is it not true that intersex is a medical condition ?

Uhuh. Pray tell, what is the third sex?

What do you mean physiologically?

Last i checked "being man or woman is contingent on being either male or female"

Man = adult human male
woman = Adult human male

Male and female are biological classification which is not contingent on social behaviors. I can wear a dress and still be a man, i can be effeminate and still be a man.

johnydon22:


So, gender means, behaviors ascribed to masculinity or femininity?

vaxx:

All major psychiatrist and psychiatric bodies agree that it is more beneficial and plausible for the individual to conform to their psychological identity than their biological one.

tintingz:
I've discussed this with Johnydon before, I presented how "gender dysphoria" can be caused by biological factors.

But we all have our opinions, this thread is unnecessary and waste of time, the OP "Change my mind" is just a joke.

johnydon22:

He said "A woman is a person who says she is a woman"

vaxx:
Yes every true is subjective except what we want to make objective and that will be term as reality which is based on consensus agreement. The truth is always perceived by a subject, experienced by a subject. The subject, that is a human, is like a tint on the glass - the tint colors everything one looks at. This tint is comprised of one’s previous experiences, thoughts, ideas, beliefs, personality traits, emotional states, all the characteristics that comprise a person.

Martinez19:

I guess I am six years old because I identify as a six year old.

budaatum:

What johnydon22 is saying is he ain't having it, as in you don't get to decide your own gender. If you got a prick you're a diq, otherwise, your a female person. And lopping either off don't change that.

vaxx:
This is a burning issue in my part of the world . Some groups of Lgbt advocate are saying germany needs a drastic overhaul of gender laws after a transgender woman has been told she wanted to be legally recognised as her child's father.

johnydon22:

Male and female are biological classification which is not contingent on social behaviors. I can wear a dress and still be a man, i can be effeminate and still be a man.