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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind (2315 Views)
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A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 7:35pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
This is the section where we have the most liberal minded folks especially my atheist friends. The subject of transgender is quite a sensitive one in the world today, so i am brining it again to this board. And my argument is: A man cannot be a woman neither can a woman be a man I want arguments that can possibly change my mind on this otherwise conservative view of human gender. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 8:03pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:Your question is flawed. people don’t change their gender, they change their sex to match their gender, and its not a choice. 7 Likes |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by budaatum: 8:11pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
And people are more concerned about homosexuals. It seems people can change their gender these days, though you need to be in a country that condones such things. Men dressed up as a girls in Thailand is a huge tourist puller, and a man dressed in iro and buba on the streets of Lagos would get chuckles. But when you start asking people to see you not as the gender you were born with there might be issues. I find it silly really children having sex changes because they have cooked up in their head that they were born with the wrong organs! They should be sent to Nigeria to be cured. Worrying about what to feed you as a child would make you consider wrong gender not a topic of importance to bring up with mummy and daddy. Still here we are. I can't convince you. I have met people who have changed their gender and have no reason to think different of them. There's a nice one in Tesco who is all laugh, and there's one who walks in my park in summer, though, I don't know how far they've gone since all I see is men dressed as women. They live their lives and let live so what's my problem? I guess it could be when the person I hook up with at a bar turns out not to be the gender I thought they were. Hopefully, I'd be finding out before, and not afterwards! |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by CAPSLOCKED: 8:15pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22: "CHANGE MY MIND" IS AT THE END OF THIS TOPIC. OH, WHAT A JOKE. YOUR MIND HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE UP SINCE YOU EVER LEARNT ABOUT THIS TOPIC, AND THAT IS WHY NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES WE'VE HAD THIS DISCUSSION YOU NEVER LET GO OF YOUR OWN OPINION, NOR ACCEPT ANYTHING DIFFERENT. YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND SO I'M SURPRISED HOW YOU NEVER TIRE FROM TALKING ABOUT THIS EVERYTIME. 4 Likes 3 Shares |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 8:16pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx: People change their sex? I didn't know we change XY into XX. Really? Anyway, Please elaborate What is sex and what is gender? 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 8:18pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
CAPSLOCKED:Actually, a good argument rooted in objective biology can Because i am literally surprised how people who pride themselves as upholders of truth could hold convictions that distort reality so much |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 8:19pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
budaatum: So, gender means, behaviors ascribed to masculinity or femininity? |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 8:25pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:what you are talking about is sex change. Nothing like gender change The definition of a man or a woman is not limited to a minor biological organ, or its reproductive purpose. Even if a man loses his penis in an accident, he still remains a man because his gender is not limited to his genitals, the psychological identity is a factor too. Similarly someone having the genitals of a particular gender cannot define them completely if their psychological identity perceives itself as another gender. All major psychiatrist and psychiatric bodies agree that it is more beneficial and plausible for the individual to conform to their psychological identity than their biological one. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 8:34pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx: There seem to be a bit of a conflation here: Sex = Male and Female Gender = Man and Woman Are we talking about similar things here?
I actually agree. Man means = Adult human male woman means = Adult human female For these things to be objectively factual, there must be absolute.
I think there is need to be sure of what we are talking about as highlighted above for me to go further |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by Martinez19(m): 8:43pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22: ![]() ![]() |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 8:50pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:Layman understanding, they are the same, scienctific speaking both are different. Sex is the biological identity you are born with. Gender is the socio-cultural stereotype that is fed into your system as a result of the society or environment. actually agree.""Absolute"" nothing of such in science, what we have are provisional. I think there is need to be sure of what we are talking about as highlighted above for me to go furtherok already explained. 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 8:53pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
Martinez19: What prompted me to open this thread was a Youtube video i was watching today. So, some women created an Advert and posted at an ad space in Liverpool The ad read Woman: noun "Adult human female" Which is in fact the definition of woman. So, apparently it was offensive to transgender people and they petition to have the ad banner taken down. One of the activists who wanted the post to be taken down and one of the women who posted the ads were connected to a tv show to argue on this event. The woman said, they did nothing wrong other than post a literal objective truth, that asking someone not to post a truth in order not to offend someone is quite ludicrous. The man disagreed and was asked to define "Woman" He said "A woman is a person who says she is a [woman" I was amazed because that definition didn't literally make sense at all. It didn't explain what the word "woman" meant and still used the word "Woman" in the definition of "Woman" My mind was blown, it was funny but mind blowing. 2 Likes |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 8:56pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx: Isn't gender contingent on sex? And how do we change sex? You implied that on your first comment. Is this an absolute statement? |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by LordReed(m): 9:06pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22: gender /ˈdʒɛndə/ noun 1. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones). Nothing in this definition says it is impossible to change one's gender. As we are starting to see not even our biology is unmalleable. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 9:06pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:that’s not actually true. Some people have genetic, hormonal and physical features typical of both male and female at the same time, so their biological sex isn’t clearly male or female. This is called ‘intersex’. And how do we change sex? You implied that on your first comment.Surgery and hormones and clothing choices and are all ways to help the outside match the inside. Is this an absolute statement?Also provisional. Till the mystery reveal itself. 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 9:13pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
LordReed: Tell me, how do you change male to female? 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 9:16pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx:Intersex is a medical condition, it is actually an anomaly just like someone having an extra toe. this doesn't really mean human sex isn't binary or gender not being contingent on sex.
So, we can change an XY into XX? Because being male or female transcends these criterias listed above. I can wear a gown and top, this doesn't make me a woman. An effeminate man is in fact male. So, how do we do this exactly? Meaning we cannot be sure it is true then, so how do we trust your statement? |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by LordReed(m): 9:34pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22: As a social and cultural construct, all it would take was to appropriate the respective social and cultural symbols. We even say it to people all the time "why are you doing like a woman/man?". 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by Martinez19(m): 9:35pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:Don't mind them. Emotions before reasoning. This stupidity is just a tip of the iceberg. Research about the SJWs and their take on race,culture and gender(not forgetting gender studies and gender pronouns); feminazi; antifa; liberals etc. you will see how stupid the human mind can be. I guess I am six years old because I identify as a six year old. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 9:52pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:not true, most forms of intersex do not cause any disabilities, deformities or similar malfunctions, The overwhelming majority of intersex individuals grow up and live their lives without any medical issues.. this doesn't really mean human sex isn't binary or gender not being contingent on sex.Not true either. So, we can change an XY into XX?Genetically they will always be who they were born with. Psychologically they may not. Which is the point of discussion.here. Meaning we cannot be sure it is true then, so how do we trust your statement?provisional truth aren't meant to be trusted . They are simply satisfactory answer we have at hand . When new answer springforth; we adjust our scope. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 9:58pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
LordReed: Human linguistics takes short cuts. We also say "Sun rises from the east" Social stereotypes is built on expectations. Men are more likely to be masculine and strong due to testosterone, hence the stereotype. This doesn't mean a masculine woman is a man or an effeminate man is a woman. So a woman behaving like a man doesn't make her a man. Man means "human adult male" Woman "Adult human female" Girl "child human female Boy "child human male" Unless we can alter sex which is unlikely since sex is more than physiological appearance, you have not shown how a woman can be a man and a man a woman. And remember the transgender argument is based on subjective person identification 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by johnydon22(m): 10:06pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx:LOL. Having an extra toe isn't a disability either doesn't make it less an anomaly. So, how exactly is it not true that intersex is a medical condition? Uhuh. Pray tell, what is the third sex? What do you mean physiologically? Last i checked "being man or woman is contingent on being either male or female" Man = adult human male woman = Adult human male Male and female are biological classification which is not contingent on social behaviors. I can wear a dress and still be a man, i can be effeminate and still be a man. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 10:27pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:because by definition, intersex is not a disorder. A ‘disorder’ being medically defined as something incompatible with a normal, healthy life. Virtual every form of intersex has no impact on an individual’s ability to lead a healthy, long life. Does extra toe has a negative impact? Uhuh. Pray tell, what is the third sex?intersex medically, it will be welcome, layman understanding it will be rejected. Germany has intersex as the third option on their birth certificate What do you mean physiologically?i meant to say psychologically. Last i checked "being man or woman is contingent on being either male or female"Ironically that's true just not the way you mean it. We have this things being male and female which is genetic and being a man or woman boy or girl which was psychological. Historically the two were completed for a purpose of misogyny and control of both females and women but relationship at all is at base pure discrimination Male and female are biological classification which is not contingent on social behaviors. I can wear a dress and still be a man, i can be effeminate and still be a man.Depends on how you look at it. Biologically speaking a man can never be a woman or vice versa. Even after transitioning as i said earlier, it is still, right now, not possible to do a full conversion from male to female or vice versa. Simply not possible yet. In the social construct then yes, a biological male can have the social gender of a female. Or be fluid, or otherwise. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by budaatum: 10:35pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:Despite trying for years to resolve the sex/ gender issue, I have resolved for me that sex is sex, and masculine and feminine is gender. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by tintingz(m): 10:36pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
I've discussed this with Johnydon before, I presented how "gender dysphoria" can be caused by biological factors. But we all have our opinions, this thread is unnecessary and waste of time, the OP "Change my mind" is just a joke. 1 Like |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by budaatum: 10:41pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx:What johnydon22 is saying is he ain't having it, as in you don't get to decide your own gender. If you got a prick you're a diq, otherwise, your a female person. And lopping either off don't change that. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 10:45pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
tintingz:This is a burning issue in my part of the world . Some groups of Lgbt advocate are saying germany needs a drastic overhaul of gender laws after a transgender woman has been told she wanted to be legally recognised as her child's father. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by budaatum: 10:50pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22: Considering, I would have thought you'd agree. vaxx: |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by budaatum: 10:56pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
Martinez19:69-year-old man demands to have age legally reduced to 49 - so he can DATE |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by vaxx: 10:56pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
budaatum:what i personally discover is that most of those that under go transgender surgeries , their GENETIC make up is predominately female/male of the sex they want to become. Granted there is nurture vs nature aspects, but most of them are genetically female/ male regardless of the birth gender . Those hospitals doing transgender surgeries require them to be genetically assessed before committing to the surgical procedures. That's After they go through the psycho/social assessment. Not All require it but most do. |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by tintingz(m): 10:59pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
vaxx:And what's wrong with it? |
Re: A Man Cannot Be A Woman Vise Versa; Change My Mind by budaatum: 11:00pm On Nov 24, 2018 |
johnydon22:And according to some, you can be a man or a woman and identify as a woman or man respectively. And even after you take their clothes off, you might not be able to say otherwise. |
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