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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Free Will Is An Illusion (4475 Views)
What Is The Point Of Free Will? / Can You Explain How If Everything Has A Cause You Then Have Free Will? / God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by PastorAIO: 5:03pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum: Of non existent things there are two types. Characters, and Characterless. That which is without character is Non-existent. But not every non existent thing is without character. For example we have fictional characters. e.g Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist but he is a well recognised Character from Canon Doyle books. The Fictional acts and choices of Sherlock Holmes will still always tally with his fitional character. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 5:15pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
PastorAIO:But Sherlock Holmes does exist, fictitiously albeit, as, and with a character, created by Conan Doyle! Are you suggesting God too has a created character? |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 5:28pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
I can't believe we are still debating this thing. I trashed it out sufficiently in my final reply to Ihedinobi3 |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 6:01pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:But this is not true! Human beings are not wired to move, feed, develop feelings (in response), compete, adapt, develop sexual behaviors and exchange gases, though I'm inclined to let that last one fly. Human beings may chose to not do the things you claim they are wired to. And they may chose to do them in response to non-related stimulus. I.e. not move, not eat and so on even when the more appropriate response might be to move, or eat etc. Does that alone not show free will? |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 6:09pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:If they just CHOOSE not to do those things ,their brains will be checked. And there is time for everything/every activity. ![]() |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 6:17pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:But that's not true! If I fast when I was hungry, or not run from danger, you will not be checking my brain! You most definitely would not be checking my brain if I refused to compete with you or develop sexual behaviours. Or at least, we do not necessarily check the brains of human beings who refuse to do these things! Most times, we just let such people be. Still, the fact that they get to choose shows free will, whether we agree with their expression of it or not. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 6:24pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho: budaatum:Didn't I mention time? And where is psychology/psychiatry in all of this? Oh,I forgot Economics,Religion, Education, etc Humans can be complex,I know. But,they remain humans. You can't choose to be a human being,right? |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 6:39pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:I may not chose to be a human being, and by that, I hope you mean 'exist' since it would be absurd for you to mean choose whether I were a dog or a stone. But I can, with my free will - which I do have, provided it is agreed that I exist as a human being, or a living thing at least - choose what sort of human being I am, and how I respond to stimuli. That choice is not prewired into me or I wouldn't have a choice in the matter, at anytime whatsoever. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 6:42pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:There is? I disagree. I may very well choose to do whatever I do at a time I also choose! Do give examples though so I know what you mean. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:18pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:You are expected to choose reasonably because you have a brain. What you call choice is actually a function of your brain. If an organism has no brain,it chooses because it it feels like choosing. Bacteria also choose but they can't choose to do much. Yet,they do enough damage when they do. The complexity of Man means Man will choose as he thinks and express what he his feeling like(informed/happy/unprepared/satisfied/etc). |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:20pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:There is no universal timetable but you know your limits. That is what I mean. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 7:23pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:Limits that I can at any point in time, with my freewill, choose to extend or reduce, at my own will! |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:30pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:Reduce your life span as a human being(the modern homo sapiens) now if you feel like. In fact,decide not to eat for the next fifty days!!!!! |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 7:31pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:Expected by whom or what? Who or what is to say I must not choose unreasonably? HellVictorinho:Really? Is the function of my brain not a choice? Are you suggesting I cannot choose to allow my brain to function stupidly or not at all? HellVictorinho:I can't say I agree! A stone has no brain. Neither do stones have choice or feelings, as far as I know. HellVictorinho:Little choice is still choice! HellVictorinho:And that denotes freewill. Including the choice to not choose to think or not to express what he feels or to feel nothing at all! |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 7:37pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:If I choose to do what you tell me to do, I would be abrogating my free will to you! That would not be me exercising my free will, but me enslaving myself to you, which is the exact opposite of me having any free will at all. So, no thank you. I would rather exercise my own free will, which at this very moment is to eat today, tomorrow and the days after that, and to extend my lifespan as long as I free willy possibly can! 1 Like |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:41pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:The expectation here has to do with Man's tendency to think. Stupidity is a level of intelligence. Mental illness/Psychological disorder means something else. Inactivity doesn't cause the functioning of your brain to stop. Stones are not organisms. And,I have somewhat stated that living things make choices in different ways. But they have limits-Fact. Can you choose to sleep for three days? |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:44pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:I don't have to be the one commanding you. Your freedom is subjective. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 7:47pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:My freedom is subjective to me! When I start doing what you ask me to choose to do, I would be subjecting my freedom to you. I know which I would choose with my own subjective free will! |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 7:51pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:Mans tendency to think? Are you suggesting that you have not met a man without such tendencies? Yes I can choose to sleep for three days if I decided to choose to do so. I can after all take enough sleeping pills to assist me, or bash my head so hard against a wall and be in stupor for three days or more, depending. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:54pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:Goodness!!!!! I know you are not a prisoner. But we have jails for a reason. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by AgentOfAllah: 7:55pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
XxSabrinaxX: Fascinating argument! While I am unable to defend the existence of freewill, I do think your take on a determinate universe is outdated. Modern physics is unequivocal about the intrinsic indeterminacy of the universe. Do look up 'uncertainty principle' when you're chanced. 1 Like |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 7:56pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:The drugs caused you to sleep for approximately three days. And you did it for a reason. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 8:02pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:But I am not in jail. Nor have I done anything to merit being jailed. But assuming I did do something to merit being jailed, I would still have asserted my free will in doing that thing which the consequence is imprisonment in a jail. One could even claim that it is my choice to be jailed since, and if, I knew the consequence of my freely chosen act was imprisonment in a jail. Unless you just happen to be a tyrant who has the power to jail me without reason, that is, of course. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 8:03pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:A reason subjective to me, and still within the remit of my free will. Or is it not? |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 8:30pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:You can as well strip naked on the streets. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by PastorAIO: 8:36pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
And yet there are people commuting suicide everyday. Some clinics in Switzerland even specialise in euthanasia. People 'choose' to end their lives all the time. budaatum: 1 Like |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Ihedinobi3: 8:49pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:So, basically, human beings are biological machines just like the animals. How then do you explain the obvious difference between human beings and the animals, that is, the obvious possession of self-awareness and volition by human beings which is lacking in other biological machines? HellVictorinho:I am afraid I don't know what these "obvious absurdities/meaningless events that prove otherwise" are. I assume that they will explain how anything at all can exist without "an Intelligent Designer with a purpose in mind" to make them. HellVictorinho:Why is there a need for setting limits on individual desires etc if there is no such thing as a free will and therefore no good and evil? HellVictorinho:Quite right. I am a Christian. The Bible teaches me that every human being except the insane, of course, possesses a free will and the opportunity to exercise it either in submission to God's or in rebellion against Him. That is what I believe. It is my position. But I don't see how that helps you demonstrate that your position is correct at all. |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Nobody: 8:55pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:You shouldn't ask me questions on Biology as if I am the only one that has studied it. 'Limits to human rights' are taught in schools. Even animals organize themselves in a way that seems appropriate to them so what should we expect of humans? |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Ihedinobi3: 9:14pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:I realize and recognize that you may be new to Nairaland (your profile and your posting style suggest that you, in fact, are) and it seems to me as well that you are an atheist and it has been my observation that atheists assume that embracing atheism confirms that they are astronomically intelligent - certainly more intelligent than those of us who stick with the Bible. But debate is where you actually demonstrate that you are making arguments worthy of being considered and received. You should not expect your claims to go unchallenged. You should be prepared to properly defend everything you say especially when you take the intellectual high ground. Now, it is YOU who made those claims about biology, not some other person. It is YOU then who must defend it. It is also YOU who made claims about limits as an objection to free will. So, it is YOU too who must defend it. Animals organize themselves into groups, it is true, but I would be surprised if the far greater sophistication of human organization is not evident to you. Human beings do not merely organize themselves into groups, they do so in very important ways to reflect their attitudes to God and to one another. This is rather self-evident. I doubt very much that you will find any ant colonies making laws involving homosexuality and gender identification. Do you consider that such things are possible? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 9:24pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
HellVictorinho:If I want to, I will. But considering it's sub 5o where I am, I'd rather not at the moment, thanks. 1 Like |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by budaatum: 9:27pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:Where'd you get that from? Atheists really are just as human as non-atheists. Neither has an exclusive hold on astronomic stupidity, as I'm sure you've noticed despite the assumptions of some! 3 Likes |
Re: Free Will Is An Illusion by Ihedinobi3: 9:39pm On Jan 06, 2019 |
budaatum:Just from many of the atheists I have debated here on Nairaland. But you are right, of course. Being atheist or being Christian does not quite have anything to do with one's intellect. These things are spiritual positions (at least, from where I stand). There are Christians blessed with rather strong intellects and Christians who are not, just as there are rich and poor Christians as well. There are also atheists who possess very strong intellects and atheists who do not. 2 Likes 1 Share |
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