budaatum:

From what you've said here, I'm inclined to say the character of gods is to not exist since my position is that they don't exist.

What you reckon, Pastor?

Of non existent things there are two types. Characters, and Characterless.

That which is without character is Non-existent.

But not every non existent thing is without character. For example we have fictional characters. e.g Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist but he is a well recognised Character from Canon Doyle books. The Fictional acts and choices of Sherlock Holmes will still always tally with his fitional character.

PastorAIO:


Of non existent things there are two types. Characters, and Characterless.

That which is without character is Non-existent.

But not every non existent thing is without character. For example we have fictional characters. e.g Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist but he is a well recognised Character from Canon Doyle books. The Fictional acts and choices of Sherlock Holmes will still always tally with his fitional character.

But Sherlock Holmes does exist, fictitiously albeit, as, and with a character, created by Conan Doyle!

Are you suggesting God too has a created character?

I can't believe we are still debating this thing.
I trashed it out sufficiently in my final reply to Ihedinobi3

HellVictorinho:

Alright, I will explain.
Biologically, humans are wired to do certain things including: moving, feeding, developing feelings(in response),competing,adapting,developing sexual behaviors,exchanging gases,etc.
So,they are expected to do certain things by default and not because they actually had a choice.

But this is not true! Human beings are not wired to move, feed, develop feelings (in response), compete, adapt, develop sexual behaviors and exchange gases, though I'm inclined to let that last one fly.

Human beings may chose to not do the things you claim they are wired to. And they may chose to do them in response to non-related stimulus. I.e. not move, not eat and so on even when the more appropriate response might be to move, or eat etc. Does that alone not show free will?

budaatum:

But this is not true! Human beings are not wired to move, feed, develop feelings (in response), compete, adapt, develop sexual behaviors and exchange gases, though I'm inclined to let that last one fly.

Human beings may chose to not do the things you claim they are wired to. And they may chose to do them in response to non-related stimulus. I.e. not move, not eat and so on even when the more appropriate response might be to move, or eat etc. Does that alone not show free will?

If they just CHOOSE not to do those things ,their brains will be checked.
And there is time for everything/every activity.

HellVictorinho:

If they just CHOOSE not to do those things ,their brains will be checked.
And there is time for everything/every activity.

But that's not true! If I fast when I was hungry, or not run from danger, you will not be checking my brain! You most definitely would not be checking my brain if I refused to compete with you or develop sexual behaviours. Or at least, we do not necessarily check the brains of human beings who refuse to do these things! Most times, we just let such people be.

Still, the fact that they get to choose shows free will, whether we agree with their expression of it or not.

HellVictorinho:

Didn't I mention time?

budaatum:

But that's not true! If I fast when I was hungry, or not run from danger, you will not be checking my brain! You most definitely would not be checking my brain if I refused to compete with you or develop sexual behaviours. Or at least, we do not necessarily check the brains of human beings who refuse to do these things! Most times, we just let such people be.

Still, the fact that they get to choose shows free will, whether we agree with their expression of it or not.

Didn't I mention time?
And where is psychology/psychiatry in all of this?
Oh,I forgot Economics,Religion, Education, etc
Humans can be complex,I know.
But,they remain humans.
You can't choose to be a human being,right?

HellVictorinho:

Didn't I mention time?
And where is psychology/psychiatry in all of this?
Oh,I forgot Economics,Religion, Education, etc
Humans can be complex,I know.
But,they remain humans.
You can't choose to be a human being,right?

I may not chose to be a human being, and by that, I hope you mean 'exist' since it would be absurd for you to mean choose whether I were a dog or a stone.

But I can, with my free will - which I do have, provided it is agreed that I exist as a human being, or a living thing at least - choose what sort of human being I am, and how I respond to stimuli. That choice is not prewired into me or I wouldn't have a choice in the matter, at anytime whatsoever.

HellVictorinho:

If they just CHOOSE not to do those things ,their brains will be checked.
And there is time for everything/every activity.

There is? I disagree. I may very well choose to do whatever I do at a time I also choose!

Do give examples though so I know what you mean.

budaatum:

I may not chose to be a human being, and by that, I hope you mean 'exist' since it would be absurd for you to mean choose whether I were a dog or a stone.

But I can, with my free will - which I do have, provided it is agreed that I exist as a human being, or a living thing at least - choose what sort of human being I am, and how I respond to stimuli. That choice is not prewired into me or I wouldn't have a choice in the matter, at anytime whatsoever.

You are expected to choose reasonably because you have a brain.
What you call choice is actually a function of your brain.
If an organism has no brain,it chooses because it
it feels like choosing.
Bacteria also choose but they can't choose to do much.
Yet,they do enough damage when they do.
The complexity of Man means Man will choose as he thinks and express what he his feeling like(informed/happy/unprepared/satisfied/etc).

budaatum:

There is? I disagree. I may very well choose to do whatever I do at a time I also choose!

Do give examples though so I know what you mean.

There is no universal timetable but you know your limits.
That is what I mean.

HellVictorinho:

There is no universal timetable but you know your limits.
That is what I mean.

Limits that I can at any point in time, with my freewill, choose to extend or reduce, at my own will!

budaatum:

Limits that I can at any point in time, with my freewill, choose to extend or reduce, at my own will!

Reduce your life span as a human being(the modern homo sapiens) now if you feel like.
In fact,decide not to eat for the next fifty days!!!!!

HellVictorinho:

You are expected to choose reasonably because you have a brain.

Expected by whom or what? Who or what is to say I must not choose unreasonably?

HellVictorinho:
What you call choice is actually a function of your brain.

Really? Is the function of my brain not a choice? Are you suggesting I cannot choose to allow my brain to function stupidly or not at all?

HellVictorinho:
If an organism has no brain,it chooses because it
it feels like choosing.

I can't say I agree! A stone has no brain. Neither do stones have choice or feelings, as far as I know.

HellVictorinho:
Bacteria also choose but they can't choose to do much.

Little choice is still choice!

HellVictorinho:
The complexity of Man means Man will choose as he thinks and express what he his feeling like(informed/happy/unprepared/satisfied/etc).

And that denotes freewill. Including the choice to not choose to think or not to express what he feels or to feel nothing at all!

HellVictorinho:

Reduce your life span as a human being(the modern homo sapiens) now if you feel like.
In fact,decide not to eat for the next fifty days!!!!!

If I choose to do what you tell me to do, I would be abrogating my free will to you! That would not be me exercising my free will, but me enslaving myself to you, which is the exact opposite of me having any free will at all.

So, no thank you. I would rather exercise my own free will, which at this very moment is to eat today, tomorrow and the days after that, and to extend my lifespan as long as I free willy possibly can!

budaatum:

Expected by whom or what? Who or what is to say I must not choose unreasonably?


Really? Is the function of my brain not a choice? Are you suggesting I cannot choose to allow my brain to function stupidly or not at all?


I can't say I agree! A stone has no brain. Neither do stones have choice or feelings, as far as I know.


Little choice is still choice!


And that denotes freewill. Including the choice to not choose to think or not to express what he feels or to feel nothing at all!

The expectation here has to do with Man's tendency to think.
Stupidity is a level of intelligence.
Mental illness/Psychological disorder means something else.
Inactivity doesn't cause the functioning of your brain to stop.
Stones are not organisms.
And,I have somewhat stated that living things make choices in different ways.
But they have limits-Fact.
Can you choose to sleep for three days?

budaatum:

If I choose to do what you tell me to do, I would be abrogating my free will to you! That would not be me exercising my free will, but me enslaving myself to you, which is the exact opposite of me having any free will at all.

So, no thank you. I would rather exercise my own free will, which at this very moment is to eat today, tomorrow and the days after that, and to extend my lifespan as long as I free willy possibly can!

I don't have to be the one commanding you.
Your freedom is subjective.

HellVictorinho:

I don't have to be the one commanding you.
Your freedom is subjective.

My freedom is subjective to me! When I start doing what you ask me to choose to do, I would be subjecting my freedom to you. I know which I would choose with my own subjective free will!

HellVictorinho:

The expectation here has to do with Man's tendency to think.
Stupidity is a level of intelligence.
Mental illness/Psychological disorder means something else.
Inactivity doesn't cause the functioning of your brain to stop.
Stones are not organisms.
And,I have somewhat stated that living things make choices in different ways.
But they have limits-Fact.
Can you choose to sleep for three days?

Mans tendency to think? Are you suggesting that you have not met a man without such tendencies?

Yes I can choose to sleep for three days if I decided to choose to do so. I can after all take enough sleeping pills to assist me, or bash my head so hard against a wall and be in stupor for three days or more, depending.

budaatum:

My freedom is subjective to me! When I start doing what you ask me to choose to do, I would be subjecting my freedom to you. I know which I would choose with my own subjective free will!

Goodness!!!!!
I know you are not a prisoner.
But we have jails for a reason.

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

Fascinating argument! While I am unable to defend the existence of freewill, I do think your take on a determinate universe is outdated. Modern physics is unequivocal about the intrinsic indeterminacy of the universe. Do look up 'uncertainty principle' when you're chanced.

budaatum:

Mans tendency to think? Are you suggesting that you have not met a man without such tendencies?

Yes I can choose to sleep for three days if I decided to choose to do so. I can after all take enough sleeping pills to assist me, or bash my head so hard against a wall and be in stupor for three days or more, depending.

The drugs caused you to sleep for approximately three days.
And you did it for a reason.

HellVictorinho:

Goodness!!!!!
I know you are not a prisoner.
But we have jails for a reason.

But I am not in jail. Nor have I done anything to merit being jailed. But assuming I did do something to merit being jailed, I would still have asserted my free will in doing that thing which the consequence is imprisonment in a jail. One could even claim that it is my choice to be jailed since, and if, I knew the consequence of my freely chosen act was imprisonment in a jail.

Unless you just happen to be a tyrant who has the power to jail me without reason, that is, of course.

HellVictorinho:

The drugs caused you to sleep for approximately three days.
And you did it for a reason.

A reason subjective to me, and still within the remit of my free will. Or is it not?

budaatum:

But I am not in jail. Nor have I done anything to merit being jailed. But assuming I did do something to merit being jailed, I would still have asserted my free will in doing that thing which the consequence is imprisonment in a jail. One could even claim that it is my choice to be jailed since, and if, I knew the consequence of my freely chosen act was imprisonment in a jail.

Unless you just happen to be a tyrant who has the power to jail me without reason, that is, of course.

You can as well strip naked on the streets.

And yet there are people commuting suicide everyday. Some clinics in Switzerland even specialise in euthanasia. People 'choose' to end their lives all the time.

budaatum:

If I choose to do what you tell me to do, I would be abrogating my free will to you! That would not be me exercising my free will, but me enslaving myself to you, which is the exact opposite of me having any free will at all.

So, no thank you. I would rather exercise my own free will, which at this very moment is to eat today, tomorrow and the days after that, and to extend my lifespan as long as I free willy possibly can!

HellVictorinho:

Alright, I will explain.
Biologically, humans are wired to do certain things including: moving, feeding, developing feelings(in response),competing,adapting,developing sexual behaviors,exchanging gases,etc.
So,they are expected to do certain things by default and not because they actually had a choice.

So, basically, human beings are biological machines just like the animals. How then do you explain the obvious difference between human beings and the animals, that is, the obvious possession of self-awareness and volition by human beings which is lacking in other biological machines?

HellVictorinho:
Yet,that doesn't prove that there is an Intelligent Designer with a purpose in mind and it doesn't prove that there is a Divine Consciousness that facilitates 'everything'.
This is because of the obvious absurdities/meaningless events that prove otherwise.

I am afraid I don't know what these "obvious absurdities/meaningless events that prove otherwise" are. I assume that they will explain how anything at all can exist without "an Intelligent Designer with a purpose in mind" to make them.

HellVictorinho:
As regards the creation/making of Laws,you should understand that the natural tendency of humans to organize themselves leads to the necessity for constituted authorities.
And these authorities are acquainted with the responsibility of maintaining this organization.
But they can't do it without setting limits for the exhibition of individual desires,ambitions,feelings, behaviors,etc among members of the society in their localities.

Why is there a need for setting limits on individual desires etc if there is no such thing as a free will and therefore no good and evil?

HellVictorinho:
Lastly, I know why you think there is 'freewill'=Religious dogma.

Quite right. I am a Christian. The Bible teaches me that every human being except the insane, of course, possesses a free will and the opportunity to exercise it either in submission to God's or in rebellion against Him. That is what I believe. It is my position. But I don't see how that helps you demonstrate that your position is correct at all.

Ihedinobi3:

So, basically, human beings are biological machines just like the animals. How then do you explain the obvious difference between human beings and the animals, that is, the obvious possession of self-awareness and volition by human beings which is lacking in other biological machines?



I am afraid I don't know what these "obvious absurdities/meaningless events that prove otherwise" are. I assume that they will explain how anything at all can exist without "an Intelligent Designer with a purpose in mind" to make them.



Why is there a need for setting limits on individual desires etc if there is no such thing as a free will and therefore no good and evil?



Quite right. I am a Christian. The Bible teaches me that every human being except the insane, of course, possesses a free will and the opportunity to exercise it either in submission to God's or in rebellion against Him. That is what I believe. It is my position. But I don't see how that helps you demonstrate that your position is correct at all.

You shouldn't ask me questions on Biology as if I am the only one that has studied it.
'Limits to human rights' are taught in schools.
Even animals organize themselves in a way that seems appropriate to them so what should we expect of humans?

HellVictorinho:

You shouldn't ask me questions on Biology as if I am the only one that has studied it.
'Limits to human rights' are taught in schools.
Even animals organize themselves in a way that seems appropriate to them so what should we expect of humans?

I realize and recognize that you may be new to Nairaland (your profile and your posting style suggest that you, in fact, are) and it seems to me as well that you are an atheist and it has been my observation that atheists assume that embracing atheism confirms that they are astronomically intelligent - certainly more intelligent than those of us who stick with the Bible. But debate is where you actually demonstrate that you are making arguments worthy of being considered and received. You should not expect your claims to go unchallenged. You should be prepared to properly defend everything you say especially when you take the intellectual high ground.

Now, it is YOU who made those claims about biology, not some other person. It is YOU then who must defend it.

It is also YOU who made claims about limits as an objection to free will. So, it is YOU too who must defend it.

Animals organize themselves into groups, it is true, but I would be surprised if the far greater sophistication of human organization is not evident to you. Human beings do not merely organize themselves into groups, they do so in very important ways to reflect their attitudes to God and to one another. This is rather self-evident. I doubt very much that you will find any ant colonies making laws involving homosexuality and gender identification. Do you consider that such things are possible?

HellVictorinho:

You can as well strip naked on the streets.

If I want to, I will. But considering it's sub 5^o where I am, I'd rather not at the moment, thanks.

Ihedinobi3:

it has been my observation that atheists assume that embracing atheism confirms that they are astronomically intelligent - certainly more intelligent

Where'd you get that from? Atheists really are just as human as non-atheists. Neither has an exclusive hold on astronomic stupidity, as I'm sure you've noticed despite the assumptions of some!

budaatum:

Where'd you get that from? Atheists really are just as human as non-atheists. Neither has an exclusive hold on astronomic stupidity, as I'm sure you've noticed despite the assumptions of some!

Just from many of the atheists I have debated here on Nairaland. But you are right, of course. Being atheist or being Christian does not quite have anything to do with one's intellect. These things are spiritual positions (at least, from where I stand). There are Christians blessed with rather strong intellects and Christians who are not, just as there are rich and poor Christians as well. There are also atheists who possess very strong intellects and atheists who do not.