Ihedinobi3:

Your question forced a false dichotomy, essentially suggesting that religious choices are affected by either place of origin or by free will. That was the problem.

As for how people's birth affects their choices, not a single human being is born without a conscience unless they are mentally deficient in some way. That means that every single human being has everything they need - no matter where they are born - to recognize their need for a Savior. It is a choice to either seek out that Savior or to ignore that need and carry on with the status quo of their community.

Obviously, there have always been people in every culture who sought out the Gospel and were saved, so, clearly, culture and geographical limits don't prevent people from being saved if they want to be.

It still comes back to the main question of why God would allow multiple religions if there is only one true religion though. Certain christian denominations believe that those who do not follow the word of the gospel and the bible are destined for hell and missionary work is the only thing that can save their souls from eternal damnation. There are still large populations that don't have access to television or internet or even literature, so do you believe your God has more or less predeterminedly condemned these otherwise innocent people (they had no choice in that they have no access to the Judeo-Christian teachings) to an eternity of suffering and torment. I guess that's a healthy worldview.

Ihedinobi3:
It isn't vague at all. You just measured God's Love by the wrong parameters. The true concern of God's Love is each person's eternal destiny. The conditions of our lives here on earth are fleeting. They matter greatly to us, no doubt, but they are really nothing compared to what lies beyond the Grave. If one is wealthy, healthy and perfectly happy in this life (an impossibility though) but remains an unrepentant rebel until they die, they have only an eternity of anguish and sorrow to look forward to in the Lake of Fire. No memory of all the pleasures of this life would comfort them there. In fact, it would only worsen their pain since they would know exactly what they lost and how much more they lost because of what they preferred over their own eternal well-being.

The converse is equally true. If one only ever knew suffering in this life but not only remained true to Jesus Christ but also labored to grow in His Truth and help other people to do the same and be spiritually productive until they die, then the riches and glory that they come into when their Lord judges their work will wipe every possibility of regret from their hearts. All the pain of their lives on earth would completely disappear in the face of the incredible eternal rewards that they earn for their faithfulness to Jesus Christ.

So the conditions of life in this world are important only with respect to how we respond to the Gospel and to God's Truth. It is that Truth that is the demonstration of God's Love to rebels who deserve nothing good from Him.

All of these you've mentioned contradicts the idea of a God who has the tri-omni qualities. God being merciful and all powerful can easily cancel out every form of suffering, so why doesn't he just do so? I fail to see how God, who is actually the person responsible for the condition of human lives here, couldn't just rectify all these problems from the world's beginning.

Ihedinobi3:
To your first question, if the teachings of a religion contradict what is manifest in the world around me or what I know deep within me is true or if it contradicts itself, then I would be remiss indeed to hang my eternal welfare on it.

To your second question, not since I believed in the Lord Jesus. I know without a doubt that not a single religion out there is true.

To your first response, there are some teachings, statements and events in the bible that contradict what is manifest in the world about us. Historians have debunked a lot of events from the bible, the creation story (unless you understand it as a metaphor), has also been debunked, etc etc. To your second response, you've not given any credible, empirical evidence as to why other religions are false.

Ihedinobi3:
Anyone who dies unbelieving is already condemned. They will be in Torments until the Judgment of the Great White Throne after which they will be deposited into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

Indeed, only believers in Jesus Christ will be saved.

What happens to the righteous ones who never happen to come accross the means to hear the gospel before they die? Do they rot in hell too? If so, how does this justify a loving god?

Ihedinobi3:
So, it was only an inference you made. The Bible does not teach what you claimed, and to demonstrate that your inference was wrong, consider that there was also a Tree of Life, yet we do not assume that they were dead until they ate its fruit.

Regarding your second response, what does your question have to do with whether Adam and Eve knew that it was wrong to eat the fruit?

Fair enough. I may not have framed the questions well so let me ask this way: If God created Adam and Eve, how couldn't he have known that they will eat from it?

Ihedinobi3:
I assume then that you are dropping the claim that we inherit sin from our progenitors. Is that correct?

Yes, it does address the salvation issue. As you said, Salvation is an individual question. Each sinner is responsible to choose to be saved. Just like each person was free in the first instance to choose to become a sinner.

As to your question, if any human being can be absolutely perfect without sin of any kind, then, obviously, they don't need to be saved at all. They are by default already at perfect peace with God. So, of course they will be judged worthy of Heaven. But, not a single human being has a prayer at that.

The bolded is my point of contention. Would you mind explaining to me how people are free to sin in a universe created by a tri omni being? As regards to salvation, does this mean that if a sheltered muslim was more moral than a christian, doesn't this make salvation a faulty yardstick for entering heaven?

Ihedinobi3:
My answer was not at all that "prayer is mostly philosophical introspection". It was that when I pray, it is because I accept that God is in full charge of Creation and because I recognize that all I can have is whatever He is pleased to give to me and because I am confident that He wants to give me only such things as are good for me.

So, I ask for things trusting that if they are good things to ask for (since I very rarely know when what I am asking for is a good thing to have), He will give them to me. In other words, prayer is what God has given me to actually have a relationship with Him. It is for my benefit, not for His.

Given that God already has a plan, and has predestined your end from your beginning and fashioned every aspect of your life, what's the ultimate difference between when you pray and when you don't pray, when the outcome will be the same anyways?

Ihedinobi3:
My responses are only vague when you are expecting the wrong answers.

I wasn't aware that you had become a Christian. You know how wise and powerful God is? Good for you!

For the rest of us believers, while we do believe that there are no limits to God's Wisdom and Power, we often have no concept what that practically means. Creature history - especially human history - is God's Way of teaching us just that. These practical demonstrations help us to understand Who and What He is so that we are confirmed in our faith in Him. We are going to be with Him eternally after all. It builds our confidence in Him to see how He solves the impossible problems that creature free will produces.
For unbelievers, however, these things will prove at the Judgment of the Great White Throne that not a single human being has any excuse to escape just punishment.

To the first bolded: What's the point of claiming to have faith in a god when you doubt the extent of his powers?
To the second bolded: What's so hard about understanding the concept of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being? Aren't all these written in the bible?

Ihedinobi3:
There are two (or three, if we want to be nitpickers) kinds of evil:

1. Moral evil which is the same as creature rebellion against God;

2. Adversity or Calamity which is unpleasantness and discomfort which God causes in response to creature rebellion against Him[; and, in case we want to nitpick...

3. Natural evil which results from foolish disregard of God's rules in creation, for example, if you jump from a cliff without giving it adequate thought, your broken body will be buried and you will be in Heaven or Hell depending on your attitude toward God.]

God clearly is directly responsible only for that judgment that brings evil consequences upon rebels, not for the choices that moral creatures make.

Given that God created the universe, Isn't he responsible for bringing these three forms of evil into existence? I don't expect these evils would exist if God hadn't created the universe. Besides the bible text I showed you clearly stated that God himself created evil. How did you begin to know, hence dissect all the forms of evil he was talking of i.e how do you know what evil he was talking of?

Ihedinobi3:
It was not ad hominem since I was not attacking your person at all. It may be your thread but your mention of me could only be interpreted (to my mind, that is) as an invitation to respond to your questions. So it was insulting to read you demand for evidence for no clear reason other than that I am answering you already. If this is an attitude that you mean to sustain, I will take for granted that you have no respect for my person and will do my best to avoid discussing with you. I have already had this problem once with you. I don't intend to keep dragging the same issue around.

And exactly how is that an insult? You know very well that this thread is all about christians defending their faith. I never intended any insult when typing my post and I find it insulting that you'd suggest that given you don't know what's in my head. That's my problem with you, you just read meanings into useless sh!t.
If I had known you'd continue this brash method of argument you love to employ, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned you. Like I said, i'm not forcing you to answer my questions, if you're going to continue finding fault with my posts by unnecessarily reading meaning into it, then please leave. I have to say you do know how to get on one's nerves.

Ihedinobi3:
Again, I must say that you have not judged my answer correctly. An answer is vague if it fails to address what you asked directly. You asked what evidence I can give you for God and I told you that it is creation. I don't see how that is not a straightforward answer.

Anyone can claim that, for example, the sun is green. When we look at the sun, we can tell whether they should be believed or not. Creation is discernible and so are its attributes. If what we see in it corresponds to the claims that God makes about them and to what is demonstrable as His Nature, then we should believe that He made it.

The problem with your "evidence" is that evolution and the big bang do a better job of explaining how the universe came into being than creationism. Not that I completely believe in the Big Bang and evolution. I still insist there could be other possibilities; but the Big Bang is just more logical than Creationism. Hence, I don't think one can just say "look at the sun!" and conclude that it is empirical evidence for Yahweh(notice i didn't say god?)

hahn:


What is the point of acknowledging something without any tangible proof?

the proof of God's existence stares right back at you when you stand in front of a mirror.

luvmijeje:


This is my issue with the Atheist and the religionist. Their inability to see things from other people's perspective.

You didn't ask me why I believe there's God. You asked why I don't believe the universe is self existing.

Do you know why I'm able to understand the Atheist and the religionist? It is simply because I've been in both shoes.

The reason why the Atheist don't believe in God is because you didn't have a cause to believe in his existence. While the religionist have a cause to believe.

You can question. You can doubt but you don't have the right to denigrate my belief. Why am I saying this to you?





Below is an excerpt from your comment.

1. What's your evidence that I'm holding on to an imagery?

2. Do you know me?

3. Did we both go through the same experience in life?

4. What's your evidence that I'm indoctrinated?

5. What's your evidence that I've never had encounter with God?

6. Do you believe an identical twins can never go through the same experience in life?

7. So what give you audacity to judge my relationship with God by the experience you went through in life.

8. Please do not re-write my life through your myopic view of life.

Hello? Are we fighting?
First of all, I made it very clear that I take deism as a more logical standpoint than theism, and I applauded you for it. So saying that I dont see things from your view is just senseless if you ask me. If you feel offended by me simply stating why I find atheism the most logical, then do accept my apology. I've fought with lots of people in these religious forums and I don't want that to continue.
I ended my post by saying this is MY opinion, so basically you're attacking me for having an opinion, which makes no sense.

5thElement:


the proof of God's existence stares right back at you when you stand in front of a mirror.

No sir. That is proof of my reflection

MrPresident1:


Stupid questions

But you haven't answered them yet, so until you do, you are just as stupid as the questions.

XxSabrinaxX:

Hello? Are we fighting?
First of all, I made it very clear that I take deism as a more logical standpoint than theism, and I applauded you for it. So saying that I dont see things from your view is just senseless if you ask me. If you feel offended by me simply stating why I find atheism the most logical, then do accept my apology. I've fought with lots of people in these religious forums and I don't want that to continue.
I ended my post by saying this is MY opinion, so basically you're attacking me for having an opinion, which makes no sense.

HI! We are not fighting. I just don't appreciate you patronizing me after re-writing the story of my life.

luvmijeje:


HI! We are not fighting. I just don't appreciate you patronizing me after re-writing the story of my life.

I'm sorry then

luvmijeje:


HI! We are not fighting. I just don't appreciate you patronizing me after re-writing the story of my life.

Didn't you already say you grew up christian? How did she re-write your life story lol?

Ihedinobi3:

Again, I must say that you have not judged my answer correctly. An answer is vague if it fails to address what you asked directly. You asked what evidence I can give you for God and I told you that it is creation. I don't see how that is not a straightforward answer.

Anyone can claim that, for example, the sun is green. When we look at the sun, we can tell whether they should be believed or not. Creation is discernible and so are its attributes. If what we see in it corresponds to the claims that God makes about them and to what is demonstrable as His Nature, then we should believe that He made it.

Bruh how is "Creation" a straight forward answer? smh

hahn:


No sir. That is proof of my reflection

#sighs

and what do you see in your reflection?

a stone? a plant?

lemme guess, a human being. a self-aware human being whose physical composition is proof of intelligent design that can't be explained away as a freak accident of nature anymore than it's possible for a whirlwind to rip through a metal scrapyard and assemble a gleaming Ferrari.

Even top scientists aren't atheistic. It's not possible to observe nature, observe the human composition and even observe celestial bodies in space and still maintain that it all occurred accidentally.

at the root of most atheistic idea is ignorance and naïveté.

I really blame the instant-miracle hallelujah-screaming, bible thumping "Christians for this increasing atheistic attitude towards spirituality and the Divine.

Modern day Christianity is a disservice to the growth of human spirituality and knowledge.

luvmijeje:


HI! We are not fighting. I just don't appreciate you patronizing me after re-writing the story of my life.

Na this girl be this

5thElement:


#sighs

and what do you see in your reflection?

a stone? a plant?

lemme guess, a human being. a self-aware human being whose physical composition is proof of intelligent design that can't be explained away as a freak accident of nature anymore than it's possible for a whirlwind to rip through a metal scrapyard and assemble a gleaming Ferrari.

Even top scientists aren't atheistic. It's not possible to observe nature, observe the human composition and even observe celestial bodies in space and still maintain that it all occurred accidentally.

at the root of most atheistic idea is ignorance and naïveté.

I really blame the instant-miracle hallelujah-screaming, bible thumping "Christians for this increasing atheistic attitude towards spirituality and the Divine.

Modern day Christianity is a disservice to the growth of human spirituality and knowledge.

How many percent of scientists believe in a personal god or in intelligent design?

XxSabrinaxX:

I'm sorry then

You are now making me look like a bully. It's okay o jare.

Vic2Ree:


Didn't you already say you grew up christian? How did she re-write your life story lol?

She didn't accuse me of being a Christian

luvmijeje:


You are now making me look like a bully. It's okay o jare.

Wait... How? I've already apologized. What do you want me to do now?

5thElement:


#sighs

and what do you see in your reflection?

a stone? a plant?

lemme guess, a human being. a self-aware human being whose physical composition is proof of intelligent design that can't be explained away as a freak accident of nature anymore than it's possible for a whirlwind to rip through a metal scrapyard and assemble a gleaming Ferrari.

Even top scientists aren't atheistic. It's not possible to observe nature, observe the human composition and even observe celestial bodies in space and still maintain that it all occurred accidentally.

at the root of most atheistic idea is ignorance and naïveté.

I really blame the instant-miracle hallelujah-screaming, bible thumping "Christians for this increasing atheistic attitude towards spirituality and the Divine.

Modern day Christianity is a disservice to the growth of human spirituality and knowledge.

Lol. You seem to miss the point

You claim I am proof of your god ie the Christian god.

The Muslims claim I am proof of Allah

The Greeks would have claimed I am proof of Zeus

The ancient Egyptians would have claimed I am proof of Ra.

At the end of the day that is all it is CLAIMS. Arrogant claims birthed from ignorant assumptions.

For some reason you must believe your god is the creator forgetting there are thousands of religions who make the same claim.

The only thing you all have in common is your lack of evidence for your claims. You all make silly infantile excuses for your imaginary gods but cannot produce a picture or physical evidence for your so called gods.

And THAT is the source of atheism because only the truly wise will accept their ignorance and only real grown ups don't have imaginary friends

luvmijeje:


She didn't accuse me of being a Christian

I know. But were you brought up in a christian household? If so, she said nothing wrong. Anyone born into any religion like christianity is being indoctrinated into christianity from childhood and that's fact. I'm just clarifying things sha, you women should not pull me in

LordReed:


How many percent of scientists believe in a personal god or in intelligent design?

you will have to do that statistics yourself.

There are Christian scientists, astronomers, IT specialists, Mathematicians, Philosophers, Surgeons, in every aspect of the scientific world. and they believe in God.

if you believe the words of some atheistic scientists, it is because that is what you wanna believe. Don't disparage others who decide to listen to the words of scientists who believe in God.

Most people don't know that the Church (Catholic) had monks who were astronomers and even had some itty-bitty pieces of rocks named after them for their contribution to astronomy. Heck, the Vatican even has an observatory.

So yes, inasmuch as it sounds unbelievable to you, there are scientists who believe in and worship God.

XxSabrinaxX:

Wait... How? I've already apologized. What do you want me to do now?

By apologizing, you make me feel like my own is too much. I'm not expecting you to apologize.

Vic2Ree:

I know. But were you brought up in a christian household? If so, she said nothing wrong. Anyone born into any religion like christianity is being indoctrinated into christianity from childhood and that's fact. I'm just clarifying things sha, you women should not pull me in

I too know syndrome. Why won't I pull you in?

5thElement:


you will have to do that statistics yourself.

There are Christian scientists, astronomers, IT specialists, Mathematicians, Philosophers, Surgeons, in every aspect of the scientific world. and they believe in God.

if you believe the words of some atheistic scientists, it is because that is what you wanna believe. Don't disparage others who decide to listen to the words of scientists who believe in God.

Most people don't know that the Church (Catholic) had monks who were astronomers and even had some itty-bitty pieces of rocks named after them for their contribution to astronomy. Heck, the Vatican even has an observatory.

So yes, inasmuch as it sounds unbelievable to you, there are scientists who believe in and worship God.

I asked a question and you get side tracked with answering what wasn't asked. The question is simple, what percentage of scientists believe in a personal god or in intelligent design?

5thElement:


the proof of God's existence stares right back at you when you stand in front of a mirror.

One thing my grandpa was fond of saying is "any answer the human mind is bent on seeing is what it shall sees."

luvmijeje:


I too know syndrome. Why won't I pull you in?

Madam, I was just calling you out on faulty reasoning. I don't know why you are emotional like this

hahn:


Lol. You seem to miss the point

You claim I am proof of your god ie the Christian god.

The Muslims claim I am proof of Allah

The Greeks would have claimed I am proof of Zeus

The ancient Egyptians would have claimed I am proof of Ra.

At the end of the day that is all it is CLAIMS. Arrogant claims birthed from ignorant assumptions.

For some reason you must believe your god is the creator forgetting there are thousands of religions who make the same claim.

The only thing you all have in common is your lack of evidence for your claims. You all make silly infantile excuses for your imaginary gods but cannot produce a picture or physical evidence for your so called gods.

And THAT is the source of atheism because only the truly wise will accept their ignorance and only real grown ups don't have imaginary friends

now you are deliberately misquoting me. go back and read my response again. where did I say Christian god or moslem god or Buddhist gods or whatever?

that's a cheap shot from you. if you gonna quote me please do so correctly.

I maintain my statement. your existence and your self-awareness are proof enough of the existence of a rational intelligent Creator.

whether that Creator looks like the image created by "Christians" or Moslems or Jews, that belongs in a different realm of discussion.

LordReed:


I asked a question and you get side tracked with answering what wasn't asked. The question is simple, what percentage of scientists believe in a personal god or in intelligent design?

I have answered the question you asked Oga. maybe you need to read it again. besides I never claimed to know the percentage of scientists who believe in God versus those that don't and that's why I have taken the pain to explain to you that there scientists who are also Christians. understand?

Martinez19:
One thing my grandpa was fond of saying is "any answer the human mind is bent on seeing is what it see."

your grandpa sounds like a very intelligent sombori.

luvmijeje:


By apologizing, you make me feel like my own is too much. I'm not expecting you to apologize.

So what should I do now? I'm confused

5thElement:


I have answered the question you asked Oga. maybe you need to read it again. besides I never claimed to know the percentage of scientists who believe in God versus those that don't and that's why I have taken the pain to explain to you that there scientists who are also Christians. understand?

You were trying to frame it like scientists automatically become believers with this statement: Even top scientists aren't atheistic. Which is why I asked you the question, let us know how many top scientists are believers in a personal god or in intelligent design. Now you claim to not know how many top scientists are believers so why did you make that claim?

5thElement:


now you are deliberately misquoting me. go back and read my response again. where did I say Christian god or moslem god or Buddhist gods or whatever?

that's a cheap shot from you. if you gonna quote me please do so correctly.

I maintain my statement. your existence and your self-awareness are proof enough of the existence of a rational intelligent Creator.

whether that Creator looks like the image created by "Christians" or Moslems or Jews, that belongs in a different realm of discussion.

Oh you mentioned Christians so I assumed you were one. My bad

You seem to forget humans are not the only "creations". We also have diseases, poverty, pain, loss, hurt, catastrophes, hunger, rape etc. And you seem to ignore the fact that humans are NOT perfect. We are prone to diseases and can die from a cold. We age and our body degenerates and decays after a certain period.

Even if there is a creator how can you say that something that created all these is " intelligent" and "rational"? More like psychopathic and an divine asshole.

That is why I will rather lean to the stance that the earth was created by something instead of someone because that at least explains all the flaws in creation.

And all we ask for is proof of this creator. The same way you CLAIM we are proof of a creator is the same way scientists have PROVEN we evolved.

Go figure

LordReed:


You were trying to frame it like scientists automatically become believers with this statement: Even top scientists aren't atheistic. Which is why I asked you the question, let us know how many top scientists are believers in a personal god or in intelligent design. Now you claim to not know how many top scientists are believers so why did you make that claim?

lol. your use of the English language is defective sir. no offence.

I said, even top scientists aren't atheistic.

does that mean

ALL scientists?

MOST scientists?

I went ahead to prove this by mentioning that there are Christian surgeons, christian astronomers, christian physicists etc but you said I was talking off point.

My point which you seem to miss is not how many or what percentage. I never mentioned that, you did.

and unless you wanna deny that there are indeed scientists who are Christians and Moslems then this conversation is moot, don't you think?

5thElement:


the proof of God's existence stares right back at you when you stand in front of a mirror.

LOL @ this response.
Oga, have u heard of reflection before?

5thElement:


lol. your use of the English language is defective sir. no offence.

I said, even top scientists aren't atheistic.

does that mean

ALL scientists?

MOST scientists?

I went ahead to prove this by mentioning that there are Christian surgeons, christian astronomers, christian physicists etc but you said I was talking off point.

My point which you seem to miss is not how many or what percentage. I never mentioned that, you did.

and unless you wanna deny that there are indeed scientists who are Christians and Moslems then this conversation is moot, don't you think?

Religion is a crime against humanity.