Okay, so this is something I thought of a while ago, and I hadn't heard of it before.


Premise: Those who are innocent automatically go to heaven


"innocent" is defined as someone who could not have reasonably known about God or the bible (i.e. babies, indigenous tribes people, severely mentally retarded people etc.)


The conclusion is then to strive to make all people fit into this "innocent" category. Mothers should kill their babies before they grow up and have a chance of becoming a nonbeliever, people should destroy all of the bibles and any other evidence of Christianity so that no one could reasonably know about God or the bible.


Notes on this argument:


Don't even start with that "The evidence for God is all around you" bullshit from Romans because I could easily magic wand away that evidence with a severely retarded person or a baby, and you also have to know about Jesus in order for you to accept him as your lord and savior, or else there was no point of him coming here in the first place. Also don't even try that "The bible obviously doesn't tell a mother to kill her child" or "killing/destroying the bible is wrong; you will go to hell for an action like that". One, any decent mother would probably gladly suffer an eternity in Hell if it meant her child was guaranteed a one-way ticket to heaven; the same concept is applicable for the "killing/destroying the bible is wrong...". If you knew an action could potentially guarantee all of humanity a free trip to heaven, you should probably feel obligated to do so, even if it lands you in Hell... I mean come on, that's like 10 Billion : 1 ratio of Heaveners to Hellers (If one person was able to ensure that everyone was indeed innocent, but even a significantly lower ratio is still more than sufficient for this argument).

Not a good argument, if I am understanding it right.

First, no one - not babies or the mentally deficient etc - is innocent. The Bible does not hold that position. Every single human being except Jesus Christ is very guilty before God.

Second, every last sin has been paid for by the Spiritual Death of the Lord Jesus so that anyone who wishes to be forgiven and reconciled to God can be.

Third, children below the age of accountability and the mentally disadvantaged are incapable of making decisions. But because all sins including theirs have been paid off, what counts is that they did not reject the Sacrifice made in their behalf. So they are saved.

Fourth, not hearing the Gospel is no excuse. Every human being who has reached the age of accountability and has a working brain knows that God exists, that we are sinful and that there is terrible Judgment waiting after Death. If they decide to ignore that instead of looking for the Answer to that problem or to hide behind all manner of non-solutions, then they deserve the Judgment waiting for them.

So, there is no escape. You can think and you understand that there is a God, that you are sinful, that you will die and there is Hell waiting after that. If you fail to accept the Gospel, there is no escape. If you reject it, there is no escape. If you destroy all Bibles, there is still no escape.

To comment later...

An easier solution would be to just not have any babies. How insane is it that people who believe that anyone who rejects their doctrine will be teleported to a parallel universe where they will be tortured for eternity... still roll the dice and create new people?

Anyone who believes in hell should be an antinatalist. It is the only guaranteed way to save people from eternal torture.

It appears that you have missed a key point.

James 4:12: "There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

So only God can say who is innocent or not.

TheArranger:

Premise: Those who are innocent automatically go to heaven

"innocent" is defined as someone who could not have reasonably known about God or the bible (i.e. babies, indigenous tribes people, severely mentally retarded people etc.)

The conclusion is then to strive to make all people fit into this "innocent" category. Mothers should kill their babies before they grow up and have a chance of becoming a nonbeliever, people should destroy all of the bibles and any other evidence of Christianity so that no one could reasonably know about God or the bible.


[s]Notes on this argument:


Don't even start with that "The evidence for God is all around you" bullshit from Romans because I could easily magic wand away that evidence with a severely retarded person or a baby, and you also have to know about Jesus in order for you to accept him as your lord and savior, or else there was no point of him coming here in the first place. Also don't even try that "The bible obviously doesn't tell a mother to kill her child" or "killing/destroying the bible is wrong; you will go to hell for an action like that". One, any decent mother would probably gladly suffer an eternity in Hell if it meant her child was guaranteed a one-way ticket to heaven; the same concept is applicable for the "killing/destroying the bible is wrong...". If you knew an action could potentially guarantee all of humanity a free trip to heaven, you should probably feel obligated to do so, even if it lands you in Hell... I mean come on, that's like 10 Billion : 1 ratio of Heaveners to Hellers (If one person was able to ensure that everyone was indeed innocent, but even a significantly lower ratio is still more than sufficient for this argument).[/s]

Well, if you're going to address Christianity, then you'd have to address the fact that Christians believe that genuine faith alone in Jesus makes a person righteous (this may perhaps be the main/biggest point of the Christian faith). Maybe you have a totally different take on it than me, but I think Christians would rather try to get people to believe in Jesus to become "innocent" instead of, you know, killing a bunch of babies and other people.

NnennaG6:
It appears that you have missed a key point.

James 4:12: "There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

So only God can say who is innocent or not.

It appears that YOU have missed a key point. You have two options here:

1. Worship a God that sends babies to heaven

2. Worship a God that doesn’t send babies to heaven

Option one leads to mass baby murdering. Option two, good luck trying to get someone to worship a God who potentially does not send babies to heaven.

XxSabrinaxX:

It appears that YOU have missed a key point. You have two options here:

1. Worship a God that sends babies to heaven

2. Worship a God that doesn’t send babies to heaven

It appears your options are quite limited, exposing that your understanding of your Creator may be as such.

Again: James 4:12: There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

XxSabrinaxX:

Option one leads to mass baby murdering. Option two, good luck trying to get someone to worship a God who potentially does not send babies to heaven.

Understand, you aren't the lawgiver nor judge. So you're really in no position to set how it is.

Good day.

NnennaG6:

Well, if you're going to address Christianity, then you'd have to address the fact that Christians believe that genuine faith alone in Jesus makes a person righteous (this may perhaps be the main/biggest point of the Christian faith). Maybe you have a totally different take on it than me, but I think Christians would rather try to get people to believe in Jesus to become "innocent" instead of, you know, killing a bunch of babies and other people.

But if they just try to convince people, then there is a chance that person will not believe in the end. By killing the baby, you guarantee them a spot in heaven; that's a 100% success rate.

NnennaG6:

It appears your options are quite limited, exposing that your understanding of your Creator may be as such.

Again: James 4:12: There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?



Understand, you aren't the lawgiver nor judge. So you're really in no position to set how it is.

Good day.

Okay I am going to try and make this as clear as possible for you.

1. Worship a God that sends babies to heaven
2. Worship a God that doesn’t send babies to heaven

The above two options literally cover all of the possibilities for your God. Either he does or does not let babies into heaven; there literally it not another option. OP is saying that you have to pick which one of those your God is (according to your Christian beliefs or whatever religion you belong to), and then the argument is that either way you're screwed because both lead to an absurd outcome.


Gooder day

Vic2Ree:

By killing the baby, you guarantee them a spot in heaven; that's a 100% success rate.

I'm not sure what you mean by this because this is a super loaded statement on what Christianity thinks is good. Are you saying that Christianity teaches that life on this earth is nothing and it's better just to not live and go to heaven?

Are you saying that the Christian ideal is (or should be) that all people should just kill babies from this point on till they themselves die so that humanity doesn't continue and we die out and all those murdered babies go to heaven?

XxSabrinaxX:

Okay I am going to try and make this as clear as possible for you.

1. Worship a God that sends babies to heaven
2. Worship a God that doesn’t send babies to heaven

The above two options literally cover all of the possibilities for your God. Either he does or does not let babies into heaven; there literally it not another option. OP is saying that you have to pick which one of those your God is (according to your Christian beliefs or whatever religion you belong to), and then the argument is that either way you're screwed because both lead to an absurd outcome.

You still have a false dilemma fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma ) on your hands, from not understanding the topic of debate (religion). I suggest you take the time to understand the topic in greater depth, if not to find your Creator, at least to be able to debate the topic better. But trying to insult with it is nothing short of poor form, and I'd expect better, Sabrina.

XxSabrinaxX:
Gooder day

And for the last time, good day.

Vic2Ree:

But if they just try to convince people, then there is a chance that person will not believe in the end. By killing the baby, you guarantee them a spot in heaven; that's a 100% success rate.

LOL. Yeah, sure, kill your children when you have them.

I am guaranteeing to you that the Bible teaches that babies are automatically saved. No doubt of it. Now kill all your babies when you have them. I'd love to see how unselfish you are willing to be about this.

NnennaG6:

You still have a false dilemma fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma ) on your hands, from not understanding the topic of debate (religion). I suggest you take the time to understand the topic in greater depth, if not to find your Creator, at least to be able to debate the topic better. But trying to insult with it is nothing short of poor form, and I'd expect better, Sabrina.


And for the last time, good day.

It isn't a false dilemma when there really are only two options. Once we assume Yhwh and heaven, the claim "Yhwh sends all babies to heaven" either is true or isn't true.

Ihedinobi3:
Not a good argument, if I am understanding it right.

First, no one - not babies or the mentally deficient etc - is innocent. The Bible does not hold that position. Every single human being except Jesus Christ is very guilty before God.

Second, every last sin has been paid for by the Spiritual Death of the Lord Jesus so that anyone who wishes to be forgiven and reconciled to God can be.

Third, children below the age of accountability and the mentally disadvantaged are incapable of making decisions. But because all sins including theirs have been paid off, what counts is that they did not reject the Sacrifice made in their behalf. So they are saved.

Fourth, not hearing the Gospel is no excuse. Every human being who has reached the age of accountability and has a working brain knows that God exists, that we are sinful and that there is terrible Judgment waiting after Death. If they decide to ignore that instead of looking for the Answer to that problem or to hide behind all manner of non-solutions, then they deserve the Judgment waiting for them.

So, there is no escape. You can think and you understand that there is a God, that you are sinful, that you will die and there is Hell waiting after that. If you fail to accept the Gospel, there is no escape. If you reject it, there is no escape. If you destroy all Bibles, there is still no escape.

Complete and utter bullshit !!

1. Babies are guilty of what ?? A baby born today is guilty of the sin of ADAM is what you call justice.

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." - Ezekiel 18:20

2. Wrong - Jesus did not die for the SINs of mankind , its all make believe.

"No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them--" - Psalm 49:7

3. Yep, billions of children in non-christian countries have rejected the sacrifice and are hell bound for eternity

"Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." - Mark 7:7


This is not a GOSPEL of LOVE for the LOST, it is a SADISTIC CRUEL DOCTRINE , CONCOCTED by superstitious people from a PRIMITIVE ERA.

Go put your GOSPEL in the TRASH CAN where it belongs.

One thing that I think is worthy of note in all this is how atheists are so concerned about saving everyone but themselves.

An atheist won't believe in Jesus Christ because a Sentinelese has never heard of Him.

An atheist wants to kill babies and the insane because he wants to save them.

Anything at all but actually believe in Jesus Christ for themselves.

I mean, does any of them actually think about the stuff they say?

XxSabrinaxX:

It isn't a false dilemma when there really are only two options.

No one knows how God judges, and to lump it into two options is a false dilemma.

XxSabrinaxX:

Once we assume Yhwh and heaven, the claim "Yhwh sends all babies to heaven" either is true or isn't true.

So you say. I suggest you take the time to learn the topic of debate (religion) in greater depth. Good day.

MhizAngel99:
An easier solution would be to just not have any babies. How insane is it that people who believe that anyone who rejects their doctrine will be teleported to a parallel universe where they will be tortured for eternity... still roll the dice and create new people?

Anyone who believes in hell should be an antinatalist. It is the only guaranteed way to save people from eternal torture.

There is no ETERNAL TORTURE , none whatsoever. It is a FIGMENT of IMAGINATION in the small minds of religious fanatics.

Ihedinobi3:

LOL. Yeah, sure, kill your children when you have them.

I am guaranteeing to you that the Bible teaches that babies are automatically saved. No doubt of it. Now kill all your babies when you have them. I'd love to see how unselfish you are willing to be about this.

NnennaG6:

I'm not sure what you mean by this because this is a super loaded statement on what Christianity thinks is good. Are you saying that Christianity teaches that life on this earth is nothing and it's better just to not live and go to heaven?

Are you saying that the Christian ideal is (or should be) that all people should just kill babies from this point on till they themselves die so that humanity doesn't continue and we die out and all those murdered babies go to heaven?

Two of you need to calm down and reason. I am saying that guaranteeing someone a spot in heaven is paramount. The actual number of people I do not think matters so much; I argue that it's more about the success rate.

Vic2Ree:


Two of you need to calm down and reason. I am saying that guaranteeing someone a spot in heaven is paramount. The actual number of people I do not think matters so much; I argue that it's more about the success rate.

Interesting, two questions on that:
1. Are you saying what you think is best, or what you think Christianity teaches?
2. Just for fun to poke at the idea: are you saying that guaranteeing 100% of 100 people to heaven is better than getting 25% of 100,000 people? If so, why?

frosbel2:



Complete and utter bullshit !!

1. Babies are guilty of what ?? A baby born today is guilty of the sin of ADAM is what you call justice.

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

From the first breath, all human beings sin. I was not arguing that babies are guilty of anybody else's sin.

frosbel2:
2. Wrong - Jesus did not die for the SINs of mankind , its all make believe.

"No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them--"

[7]No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him-
Psalms 49:7 NASB

The Lord Jesus was both God and Man. God could pay the price and He did using a human body.

frosbel2:
Yep, billions of children in non-christian countries have rejected the sacrifice and are hell bound for eternity

Says who? You?

frosbel2:
This is not a GOSPEL of LOVE for the LOST, it is a SADISTIC CRUEL DOCTRINE , CONCOCTED by superstitious people from a PRIMITIVE ERA.

Go put your GOSPEL in the trash can where it belongs.

Since I did not even address you, it just goes to show that something is very deeply wrong with you to have you looking to attack the Gospel everywhere. What did it do to you, Mm?

Vic2Ree:


Two of you need to calm down and reason. I am saying that guaranteeing someone a spot in heaven is paramount. The actual number of people I do not think matters so much; I argue that it's more about the success rate.

I need to calm down and reason? Let me understand what you are saying.

YOU who want to kill babies to guarantee that they won't go to Hell are telling ME who is incredulous that a reasoning human being would think such a thing to calm down and reason?!

You, sir, are insane.

Ihedinobi3:

From the first breath, all human beings sin. I was not arguing that babies are guilty of anybody else's sin.


[7]No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him-
Psalms 49:7 NASB

The Lord Jesus was both God and Man. God could pay the price and He did using a human body.


Says who? You?


Since I did not even address you, it just goes to show that something is very deeply wrong with you to have you looking to attack the Gospel everywhere. What did it do to you, Mm?

You are quoting vaxx - who is HE ?

NnennaG6:

No one knows how God judges, and to lump it into two options is a false dilemma.



So you say. I suggest you take the time to learn the topic of debate (religion) in greater depth. Good day.

From your Wikipedia link:

A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option.

Nnenna, you can't complain that "God sends babies to heaven" vs "God doesn't sent babies to heaven" is a false dilemma. Those are the only two options. It's a true dilemma. It appears even YOU have no idea what you are talking about

Goodest day

frosbel2:


You are quoting vaxx - who is HE ?

Mistake. Corrected.

Ihedinobi3:

From the first breath, all human beings sin. I was not arguing that babies are guilty of anybody else's sin.

Lol. As soon as the baby pops of of the mother's womb and cries waah waah, it automatically becomes a sinner ?

Do you know how silly this makes you look ?

Sin actually means missing the mark or coming short as it were. How can a baby miss the mark or come short when he/she has no understanding of wrong from right ?

[7]No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him-
Psalms 49:7 NASB

The Lord Jesus was both God and Man. God could pay the price and He did using a human body.

Nope. Jesus ( if he existed ) was a mere man.

Because ;

" God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" - Numbers 23:19

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." - John 4:24

I expect you to play games with the bible verses just quoted , but it is plain for everyone to see that God just cannot be a MAN, that is the stuff from Greek Pagan Mythology.

Since I did not even address you, it just goes to show that something is very deeply wrong with you to have you looking to attack the Gospel everywhere. What did it do to you, Mm?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with me , my aim as said a few times is not to make people become atheist, because I believe in God ( just not your god ), rather it is to free the young ones here from cruel, controlling and tyrannical religion.

Ihedinobi3:
Not a good argument, if I am understanding it right.

First, no one - not babies or the mentally deficient etc - is innocent. The Bible does not hold that position. Every single human being except Jesus Christ is very guilty before God.

Second, every last sin has been paid for by the Spiritual Death of the Lord Jesus so that anyone who wishes to be forgiven and reconciled to God can be.

Third, children below the age of accountability and the mentally disadvantaged are incapable of making decisions. But because all sins including theirs have been paid off, what counts is that they did not reject the Sacrifice made in their behalf. So they are saved.

Fourth, not hearing the Gospel is no excuse. Every human being who has reached the age of accountability and has a working brain knows that God exists, that we are sinful and that there is terrible Judgment waiting after Death. If they decide to ignore that instead of looking for the Answer to that problem or to hide behind all manner of non-solutions, then they deserve the Judgment waiting for them.

So, there is no escape. You can think and you understand that there is a God, that you are sinful, that you will die and there is Hell waiting after that. If you fail to accept the Gospel, there is no escape. If you reject it, there is no escape. If you destroy all Bibles, there is still no escape.

With all these automatic things going on, why does anybody need faith in it? Its been done, the sins are paid for according to you, what then is faith for? I tell you I have paid money into your account do you need to have faith again for you to withdraw the money? If you went to the cashier and said I don't believe there is money in in my account but here is a cheque for the amount LordReed said he sent, will the cashier say get lost you don't believe?

frosbel2:


Lol. As soon as the baby pops of of the mother's womb and cries waah waah, it automatically becomes a sinner ?

Do you know how silly this makes you look ?

Sin actually means missing the mark or coming short as it were. How can a baby miss the mark or come short when he/she has no understanding of wrong from right ?

Does the opinion of a mad man about your actions and beliefs bother you, frosbel?

Every action or word or thought that goes contrary to God's Law is a sin whether it was done ignorantly with no understanding of what was done or it was done arrogantly knowing fully well what one was doing. All children below the age of accountability and all insane people sin ignorantly. So, they too are sinners just like atheists who sin very arrogantly and like the rest of us do both ignorantly and arrogantly.

frosbel2:
Nope. Jesus ( if he existed ) was a mere man.

Because ;

" God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" - Numbers 23:19

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." - John 4:24

I expect you to play games with the bible verses just quoted , but it is plain for everyone to see that God just cannot be a MAN, that is the stuff from Greek Pagan Mythology.

God is not Man. God never changed in His intrinsic Divine Nature to become a Man. Rather, God put on human nature in addition to His Deity in order to be able to die for our sins since God cannot die.

frosbel2:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me , my aim as said a few times is not to make people become atheist, because I believe in God ( just not your god ), rather it is to free the young ones here from cruel, controlling and tyrannical religion.

Who said you don't believe in God? I was just talking about how you have made it a mission to attack the Gospel specifically everywhere you run into it. I mean, you keep seeking me out to do just that. That is not indicative of great internal health.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=75210477]
All children below the age of accountability and all insane people sin ignorantly. So, they too are sinners just like atheists who sin very arrogantly and like the rest of us do both ignorantly and arrogantly.

Can you name a few sins that a new born baby may commit 'ignorantly'.

God is not Man. God never changed in His intrinsic Divine Nature to become a Man. Rather, God put on human nature in addition to His Deity in order to be able to die for our sins since God cannot die.

The muslims and the Jews were right, they consider your statement blasphemous because in their eyes and according to their religion you are reducing the creator to the lowly level of a mortal whereas God is immortal and completely spirit.

You also said God cannot die, yet Jesus died. Jesus said no one should call him good , that only God was good, he also said that his words and works were not from his own ability , but from power imbued upon him by God. Jesus never once claimed that he was God, this is just apologists making things up to align with their ulterior religious and political motives.

Who said you don't believe in God? I was just talking about how you have made it a mission to attack the Gospel specifically everywhere you run into it. I mean, you keep seeking me out to do just that. That is not indicative of great internal health.

Yes, I am not attacking you as a person , I am going after a deluded mythical load of claptrap that is doing great harm to our youth, taking the country backward and making it difficult for people to reason properly. What Nigerians need is a healthy environment for spiritual discourse , one that is void of religious dogma and dishonest apologists.

I won't stop.

LordReed:


With all these automatic things going on, why does anybody need faith in it? Its being done, the sins are paid for according to you, what then is faith for? I tell you I have paid money into your account do you need to have faith again for you to withdraw the money? If you went to the cashier and said I don't believe there is money in in my account but here is a cheque for the amount LordReed said he sent, will the cashier say get lost you don't believe?

As I said, sin has been paid for but then we cannot take advantage of that payment unless we believe that it has been made for us.

Those who are automatically saved are those who, as I also said, who are unable to make a choice. However, God knows precisely what each person would choose given the opportunity so that there is not a single person who is saved automatically who would not have chosen to be saved if they had the chance to choose.

Ihedinobi3:

As I said, sin has been paid for but then we cannot take advantage of that payment unless we believe that it has been made for us.

Those who are automatically saved are those who, as I also said, who are unable to make a choice. However, God knows precisely what each person would choose given the opportunity so that there is not a single person who is saved automatically who would not have chosen to be saved if they had the chance to choose.

The question is why is faith important for this process? When something has been performed why do you need faith for it again?