hahn:
Let me try and make small sense.

Johnny my guy don't see this as trolling

The way I see it humans have always leaned to the narrative that "someone" must have created the earth simply because as a species we like to consider ourselves special than other creatures.

I have always wondered why since there have been lots of species before us and there are other animals who possess physical attributes we can only dream of like flight, speed, cellular regeneration etc we still see ourselves as "special" especially when you consider how vulnerable we are to nature, the fact that we are prone to die from the smallest of diseases.

Instead of saying "someone" did it we can all consider the possibility instead of "something" like events as the creator of the universe?

My argument is there can't be an "intelligent" designer because by considering death, diseases, suffering, loss, struggle, sickness, rape etc it is safer to say that if there is a designer it is far from being intelligent but closer to psychopathic and very much less concerned about it's creation.

However if we say that events, like evolution suggests, is responsible for existence then it is more plausible because the we don't have to attribute intelligence to it which will explain why the world is the way it is.

If there is an intelligent being capable of creating the universe this universe, especially earth, would not be this fvcked up. Pardon my French

johnydon22:


Uuuhm seriously hahn you got to know that this isn't really the premise of the thread.

But on a curious note: do you think plane crash is evidence that the plane wasn't intelligently designed? Cus you seem to be making an argument that tragedy refutes the design argument which sadly is a very flawed argument.

The question on my topic isn't referring to the universe itself but to the intelligent designer proposed by the second branch.

There are also degrees of precision such a force or being must reach for this to be possible.

1. Precisely intelligent enough
2. Precisely powerful enough
3. Precisely exist in a form that can influence matter
4. Precisely have a will to design a universe

See? There are also some precise values this creator supposedly should reach as an entity.

Hence the question, is the precision of the creator (designer) the work of an intelligence external to it or is it by sheer chance?

hahn:


How so?

You comparing man made devices or actions by men to a supreme being that is supposed to be omni-everything is the actual flaw.

A plane manufacturer does not claim to know everything about the plane before he has even created it whereas an omniscient god does.

When the plane takes off the manufacturer does not know if it will crash. When planes crashes usually it comes as a surprise. No one in their right minds will let a plane they know perfectly well will crash take off filled with passengers in the first place.

After the plane crash the plane manufacturer studies the mishap with the hope of building future planes that won't crash.

God claims to know everything. It claims it is all loving. All powerful etc. It knows when a baby is born and it knows if the baby will die of disease or poverty but DOES NOTHING to stop or prevent it. Women get raped and this god that claims to be everywhere at everytime sits back and watches and does nothing. Even after the repetition over centuries of disasters and choas this god has done nothing to improve on it's creation.

It still creates people who are prone to hate, a world prone to disaster and suffering.

How is this intelligent?

PS: I am referring to characteristics of the Islamic and christian gods here as claimed by their followers.

And how isn't this the premise of the thread?

Am I missing something?

hahn:



You comparing man made devices or actions by men to a supreme being that is supposed to be omni-everything is the actual flaw.

A plane manufacturer does not claim to know everything about the plane before he has even created it whereas an omniscient god does.

When the plane takes off the manufacturer does not know if it will crash. When planes crashes usually it comes as a surprise. No one in their right minds will let a plane they know perfectly well will crash take off filled with passengers in the first place.

After the plane crash the plane manufacturer studies the mishap with the hope of building future planes that won't crash.

God claims to know everything. It claims it is all loving. All powerful etc. It knows when a baby is born and it knows if the baby will die of disease or poverty but DOES NOTHING to stop or prevent it. Women get raped and this god that claims to be everywhere at everytime sits back and watches and does nothing. Even after the repetition over centuries of disasters and choas this god has done nothing to improve on it's creation.

It still creates people who are prone to hate, a world prone to disaster and suffering.

How is this intelligent?

johnydon22:


When people say God they don't necessarily mean the Christian or Muslim God.

Again, tragedies do not negate design, in fact one can even argue that natural evils are necessary, i hold this very position.

And then again your argument is assuming that these things you mentioned are wrong objectively.

How exactly?

But there is absolutely nothing that suggests tragedies as a negation for design.

The premise of the thread isn't addressing whether this universe was designed or not - but your argument seems to be addressing this rather than the question.

The premise of this thread is probing the proposed designer by the second branch of the universal causality school of thought.

The premise operates under the assumption that there is a designer then asks people who subscribe to this idea if this designer came by chance or is a product of design since it meet certain precise criterias.

So, this is not about whether the universe was designed or not. You are in fact missing something.

hahn:


Well in the country where I live, Nigeria, those are the two gods people refer to mostly.

But tragedies negate intelligent design. The mere fact that a designer can create suffering shows it is not intelligent

We are talking about intelligent design.

Cool. I'd like to see what those people who don't subscribe to Allah or Jehovah have to say about it then

johnydon22:
Wait till you discuss with people who make it expressly clear they are talking about any particular God.

Or it is a strawman fallacy to bring that up in an argument that doesn't mention or imply either.

No, it doesn't.

You are assuming

1. Suffering is objectively bad
2. Natural tragedies are flaws
3. Intellect means you must be a certain way

Thats is just laughable.

Intelligent design means things are meant to be the way the designer wants it, you are also assuming

1. The designer mustn't want this to be this way
2. The designer operates on a similar moral constraints as it's creations.

Another laughable assumption

The premise of this thresd is If the assumed creator is designed or a product of chance.

This is not about the universe being designed or not.

Seriously?

Don't be obsessed with Allah and Jehovah.

hahn:


I have never met such people. There are more Christians and Muslims around where I live.



Isn't the whole concept of a designer a mere assumption? Aren't there thousands of descriptions of this designer based on thousands of assumptions? Is there a right way to assume what god is?



Not if the said designer describes itself through it's holy books in ways that contradict with it's actions.




Well obviously the assumed creator is a product of assumption




I live in a country where majority of people worship these gods are ready to humiliate and even kill people who don't believe in them too.

It would be stupid not to expect me not to take it serious

OpenYourEyes1:
Simple reason why randomness can't produce information or intelligence.

— Cut out an "A" shape on a paper.... then tear the A shaped paper into pieces...



Question:
What is the chance of the peices of "A" rearranging itself to a perfect "A" if continuously thrown in the air to land on a flat surface? The answer 1 in a trillion trillion trillion chance.


If it is difficult to reassemble the A through randomness , imagine how difficult will it be to assemble an extremely complex stuff like DNA through evolution

OpenYourEyes1:



Evolution is all about randomness. Randomness cannot produce order.

johnydon22:


Lol. As far as we know randomness and even chaos can give rise to a pattern - order.

And again, this is not the premise of this thread

OpenYourEyes1:


Not possible. I have you produced order from randomness or you just read this things and believe?

johnydon22:

You want an example?

OpenYourEyes1:
Simple reason why randomness can't produce information or intelligence.

— Cut out an "A" shape on a paper.... then tear the A shaped paper into pieces...



Question:
What is the chance of the peices of "A" rearranging itself to a perfect "A" if continuously thrown in the air to land on a flat surface? The answer 1 in a trillion trillion trillion chance.


If it is difficult to reassemble the A through randomness , imagine how difficult will it be to assemble an extremely complex stuff like DNA through evolution

johnydon22:
Johannes Kepler one day eating the plate of salad his wife served, asked a question.

If these peas, lettuce, cabbage, milk, corn are all floating forever in eternity, is there a chance that they would at a point meet and this salad is made by sheer chance?

"Yes" replied his wife "But not one as delicious as mine"

And in fact the answer is Yes, there is a chance there would meet, must be a very rare chance but there is one and considering the scale of eternity, there is chance of it happening over and over.

There are values in the universe that one could regard as precise.

Like the gravitation in the universe, too strong or too weak, the universe as we know it won't exist.

The ratio of the electromagnetic force to the strong nuclear force if it wasn't 1%, life wouldn't exist exist since even atoms won't exist.

These had led to branches on our cosmological models.

The odds of this precision though not impossible is incredibly unlikely for 1 universe.

To some; This implies that we live in a multiverse, our universe is one out of an infinite number of universes and this means that not only is it possible, its odds are greatly present and there should be others just as precise in this infinite pool of universes.

The other branche is the proposal of intelligence, Physcisists like Michio Kaku thinks that the universe in a great degree operates like a system that require intelligence to work.

But scratch that, i want to address the later part of this two branches.

The question on my topic isn't referring to the universe itself but to the intelligent designer proposed by the second branch.

There are also degrees of precision such a force or being must reach for this to be possible.

1. Precisely intelligent enough
2. Precisely powerful enough
3. Precisely exist in a form that can influence matter
4. Precisely have a will to design a universe

See? There are also some precise values this creator supposedly should reach as an entity.

Hence the question, is the precision of the creator (designer) the work of an intelligence external to it or is it by sheer chance?

Is this creator 1 out of an infinite number of like beings each different (like a multiverse) or just a remarkably one entity whose existence is an awful chance to consider?

Evangkatsoulis:


how did calculate this 1 in a trillion trillion trillian chance? What factors did you consider? And what assumptions did you make?

OpenYourEyes1:


The number can never be rearranged.
It can be stimulated on a computer.

Evangkatsoulis:


you said it is 1 in 10^36 chance. I am asking what factors you took (in the simulation).

OpenYourEyes1:


No computer has been able not solve similar challenge bro.
Example. Super Computers have done more than trillions of random guesses without solving hashed key challenges.

It almost equivalent to rearranging the piece of alphabet.

Evangkatsoulis:


. I am asking how you calculated the probability/odds and what factors you took.

OpenYourEyes1:


Simple answer: It can be stimulated on a computer but it cannot solved.
Large computers are capable of billions of calculation per second yet none are able to randomly guess a string of numbers and alphabet as long as this: fefccf1e4dacb17147d64e46d2b862b7371a70c35ce4b20003a5bfd3e3a4121c

... how much more rearranging tiny pieces of alphabet.

OpenYourEyes1:


Simple answer: It can be stimulated on a computer but it cannot solved.
Large computers are capable of billions of calculation per second yet none has been able to randomly guess a string of numbers and alphabet as long as this: fefccf1e4dacb17147d64e46d2b862b7371a70c35ce4b20003a5bfd3e3a4121c

... how much more rearranging tiny pieces of alphabet.

ralphyoung123:
are u saying that it is ur God that create imbeciles, disabled and incomplete people, are u saying that it is ur God that create people with abnormalities to give them a life of pain and mockery

OpenYourEyes1:



Well, sin brought pains and miseries into our world. Our bodies not the real us by the way. The real us lives forever without pains and sufferings.

ralphyoung123:
why should it be some selected people that suffer it, because we all know some people are healthy and have a better life than others

OpenYourEyes1:



Same reason why some have accidents while others don't. Or why some are fat while others are slim. Or why some are tall while others are short. Or why some are handsome while others are not. Or while some are rich while others are not.

How do treat people with this weakness?
Do you help them or you believe they are inferior to you, less fit and deserve suffer or die?


We will be judged by these strength and weaknesses.

ralphyoung123:
am asking why some are born with abnormalities, and have to suffer it throughout their lives, if it was the sin of Adam & Eve, shouldn't we all have cancer and the rest of the terrible diseases and abnormalities