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Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 6:03pm On Mar 03, 2019 |
Johannes Kepler one day eating the plate of salad his wife served, asked a question. If these peas, lettuce, cabbage, milk, corn are all floating forever in eternity, is there a chance that they would at a point meet and this salad is made by sheer chance? "Yes" replied his wife "But not one as delicious as mine" And in fact the answer is Yes, there is a chance there would meet, must be a very rare chance but there is one and considering the scale of eternity, there is chance of it happening over and over. There are values in the universe that one could regard as precise. Like the gravitation in the universe, too strong or too weak, the universe as we know it won't exist. The ratio of the electromagnetic force to the strong nuclear force if it wasn't 1%, life wouldn't exist exist since even atoms won't exist. These had led to branches on our cosmological models. The odds of this precision though not impossible is incredibly unlikely for 1 universe. To some; This implies that we live in a multiverse, our universe is one out of an infinite number of universes and this means that not only is it possible, its odds are greatly present and there should be others just as precise in this infinite pool of universes. The other branche is the proposal of intelligence, Physcisists like Michio Kaku thinks that the universe in a great degree operates like a system that require intelligence to work. But scratch that, i want to address the later part of this two branches. The question on my topic isn't referring to the universe itself but to the intelligent designer proposed by the second branch. There are also degrees of precision such a force or being must reach for this to be possible. 1. Precisely intelligent enough 2. Precisely powerful enough 3. Precisely exist in a form that can influence matter 4. Precisely have a will to design a universe See? There are also some precise values this creator supposedly should reach as an entity. Hence the question, is the precision of the creator (designer) the work of an intelligence external to it or is it by sheer chance? Is this creator 1 out of an infinite number of like beings each different (like a multiverse) or just a remarkably one entity whose existence is an awful chance to consider? 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by hahn(m): 6:42pm On Mar 03, 2019 |
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Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by hahn(m): 7:17pm On Mar 03, 2019 |
Let me try and make small sense. Johnny my guy don't see this as trolling The way I see it humans have always leaned to the narrative that "someone" must have created the earth simply because as a species we like to consider ourselves special than other creatures. I have always wondered why since there have been lots of species before us and there are other animals who possess physical attributes we can only dream of like flight, speed, cellular regeneration etc we still see ourselves as "special" especially when you consider how vulnerable we are to nature, the fact that we are prone to die from the smallest of diseases. Instead of saying "someone" did it we can all consider the possibility instead of "something" like events as the creator of the universe? My argument is there can't be an "intelligent" designer because by considering death, diseases, suffering, loss, struggle, sickness, rape etc it is safer to say that if there is a designer it is far from being intelligent but closer to psychopathic and very much less concerned about it's creation. However if we say that events, like evolution suggests, is responsible for existence then it is more plausible because the we don't have to attribute intelligence to it which will explain why the world is the way it is. If there is an intelligent being capable of creating the universe this universe, especially earth, would not be this fvcked up. Pardon my French 5 Likes |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 10:49pm On Mar 03, 2019 |
hahn: Uuuhm seriously hahn you got to know that this isn't really the premise of the thread. But on a curious note: do you think plane crash is evidence that the plane wasn't intelligently designed? Cus you seem to be making an argument that tragedy refutes the design argument which sadly is a very flawed argument. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by hahn(m): 11:51pm On Mar 03, 2019 |
johnydon22: How so? You comparing man made devices or actions by men to a supreme being that is supposed to be omni-everything is the actual flaw. A plane manufacturer does not claim to know everything about the plane before he has even created it whereas an omniscient god does. When the plane takes off the manufacturer does not know if it will crash. When planes crashes usually it comes as a surprise. No one in their right minds will let a plane they know perfectly well will crash take off filled with passengers in the first place. After the plane crash the plane manufacturer studies the mishap with the hope of building future planes that won't crash. God claims to know everything. It claims it is all loving. All powerful etc. It knows when a baby is born and it knows if the baby will die of disease or poverty but DOES NOTHING to stop or prevent it. Women get raped and this god that claims to be everywhere at everytime sits back and watches and does nothing. Even after the repetition over centuries of disasters and choas this god has done nothing to improve on it's creation. It still creates people who are prone to hate, a world prone to disaster and suffering. How is this intelligent? PS: I am referring to characteristics of the Islamic and christian gods here as claimed by their followers. And how isn't this the premise of the thread?
Am I missing something? 3 Likes |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 6:44am On Mar 04, 2019 |
hahn: When people say God they don't necessarily mean the Christian or Muslim God. Again, tragedies do not negate design, in fact one can even argue that natural evils are necessary, i hold this very position. And then again your argument is assuming that these things you mentioned are wrong objectively. How exactly? But there is absolutely nothing that suggests tragedies as a negation for design. The premise of the thread isn't addressing whether this universe was designed or not - but your argument seems to be addressing this rather than the question. The premise of this thread is probing the proposed designer by the second branch of the universal causality school of thought. The premise operates under the assumption that there is a designer then asks people who subscribe to this idea if this designer came by chance or is a product of design since it meet certain precise criterias. So, this is not about whether the universe was designed or not. You are in fact missing something. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by CAPSLOCKED: 6:49am On Mar 04, 2019 |
hahn: |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by hahn(m): 7:22am On Mar 04, 2019 |
johnydon22: Well in the country where I live, Nigeria, those are the two gods people refer to mostly. Again, tragedies do not negate design, in fact one can even argue that natural evils are necessary, i hold this very position. But tragedies negate intelligent design. The mere fact that a designer can create suffering shows it is not intelligent And then again your argument is assuming that these things you mentioned are wrong objectively. We are talking about intelligent design. The premise of the thread isn't addressing whether this universe was designed or not - but your argument seems to be addressing this rather than the question. Cool. I'd like to see what those people who don't subscribe to Allah or Jehovah have to say about it then 2 Likes |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 7:35am On Mar 04, 2019 |
hahn:Wait till you discuss with people who make it expressly clear they are talking about any particular God. Or it is a strawman fallacy to bring that up in an argument that doesn't mention or imply either.
No, it doesn't. You are assuming 1. Suffering is objectively bad 2. Natural tragedies are flaws 3. Intellect means you must be a certain way Thats is just laughable. Intelligent design means things are meant to be the way the designer wants it, you are also assuming 1. The designer mustn't want this to be this way 2. The designer operates on a similar moral constraints as it's creations. Another laughable assumption
The premise of this thresd is If the assumed creator is designed or a product of chance. This is not about the universe being designed or not. Seriously? Don't be obsessed with Allah and Jehovah. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by hahn(m): 7:50am On Mar 04, 2019 |
johnydon22: I have never met such people. There are more Christians and Muslims around where I live. No, it doesn't. Isn't the whole concept of a designer a mere assumption? Aren't there thousands of descriptions of this designer based on thousands of assumptions? Is there a right way to assume what god is? Intelligent design means things are meant to be the way the designer wants it, you are also assuming Not if the said designer describes itself through it's holy books in ways that contradict with it's actions. The premise of this thresd is If the assumed creator is designed or a product of chance. Well obviously the assumed creator is a product of assumption Don't be obsessed with Allah and Jehovah. I live in a country where majority of people worship these gods are ready to humiliate and even kill people who don't believe in them too. It would be stupid not to expect me not to take it serious |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 8:09am On Mar 04, 2019 |
hahn: Uuuhm ok |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 8:27am On Mar 04, 2019 |
Simple reason why randomness can't produce information or intelligence. — Cut out an "A" shape on a paper.... then tear the A shaped paper into pieces... Question: What is the chance of the peices of "A" rearranging itself to a perfect "A" if continuously thrown in the air to land on a flat surface? The answer 1 in a trillion trillion trillion chance. If it is difficult to reassemble the A through randomness , imagine how difficult will it be to assemble an extremely complex stuff like DNA through evolution |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 8:28am On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: Evolution is all about randomness. Randomness cannot produce order. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 8:43am On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: Lol. As far as we know randomness and even chaos can give rise to a pattern - order. And again, this is not the premise of this thread |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 8:57am On Mar 04, 2019 |
johnydon22: Not possible. I have you produced order from randomness or you just read this things and believe? |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by johnydon22(m): 10:23am On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: You want an example? |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 11:06am On Mar 04, 2019 |
johnydon22:Of course. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Evangkatsoulis: 12:24pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: how did calculate this 1 in a trillion trillion trillian chance? What factors did you consider? And what assumptions did you make? |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Ihedinobi3: 12:39pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
johnydon22:Philosophically speaking, there can only be one Designer. Or, at the very least, there can only be one Design. Multiple designs would have resulted in conflict between the designers. That anything exists can only lead to the conclusion that one Design won, or else there was perfect agreement regarding what the Design should be among the designers. Of course, philosophy breaks philosophy, so I don't lay much stock by philosophy. My position is the Christian One that there is only One God and the Universe exists because He is powerful and intelligent enough to build something as sophisticated as that. As for any objection that there are "errors" in the Design, I can only say that the one who judges presumes that they know best how a universe filled with bad people should be. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 12:41pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
Evangkatsoulis: The number can never be rearranged. It can be stimulated on a computer. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Evangkatsoulis: 12:43pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: you said it is 1 in 10^36 chance. I am asking what factors you took (in the simulation). |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 1:01pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
Evangkatsoulis: No computer has been able not solve similar challenge bro. Example. Super Computers have done more than trillions of random guesses without solving hashed key challenges. It almost equivalent to rearranging the piece of alphabet. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Evangkatsoulis: 1:46pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: you are not getting my point. You claimed that it would take 1 in a trillion trillion trillion chance to randomly reassemble the letter a. I am asking how you calculated the probability/odds and what factors you took. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Image123(m): 2:02pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
Athests are firever asking questions about God. When are you going to really conclude the folly that there is no God? No inner satisfactions yet? |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 2:27pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
Evangkatsoulis: Simple answer: It can be stimulated on a computer but it cannot solved. Large computers are capable of billions of calculation per second yet none has been able to randomly guess a string of numbers and alphabet as long as this: fefccf1e4dacb17147d64e46d2b862b7371a70c35ce4b20003a5bfd3e3a4121c ... how much more rearranging tiny pieces of alphabet. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Nobody: 2:44pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1:are u saying that it is ur God that create imbeciles, disabled and incomplete people, are u saying that it is ur God that create people with abnormalities to give them a life of pain and mockery 1 Like |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Evangkatsoulis: 2:54pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1: i didn't say you solve or rearrange anything. I only asked how you reached the conclusion that it would take '1 in x chances' to randomly rearrange the letter. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 2:59pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
ralphyoung123: Well, sin brought pains and miseries into our world. Our bodies not the real us by the way. The real us lives forever without pains and sufferings. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Nobody: 4:01pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1:why should it be some selected people that suffer it, because we all know some people are healthy and have a better life than others |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 4:37pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
ralphyoung123: Same reason why some have accidents while others don't. Or why some are fat while others are slim. Or why some are tall while others are short. Or why some are handsome while others are not. Or while some are rich while others are not. How do treat people with this weakness? Do you help them or you believe they are inferior to you, less fit and deserve suffer or die? We will be judged by these strength and weaknesses. |
Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by Nobody: 6:56pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
OpenYourEyes1:am asking why some are born with abnormalities, and have to suffer it throughout their lives, if it was the sin of Adam & Eve, shouldn't we all have cancer and the rest of the terrible diseases and abnormalities
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Re: Precision Or Just Amazing Chance? by OpenYourEyes1: 7:17pm On Mar 04, 2019 |
ralphyoung123: I have answered your question. You sure hawking made this childish quote? |
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