Is salvation strictly by the election of God or we merit it? Are people condemned to hell from birth?

Let's have you say based on scripture

so what has the video you added(for views) got to do with the topic

Are people predestined for heaven or hell?

Yes. Yes they are

IAmSabrina:
Are people predestined for heaven or hell?

Yes. Yes they are

Scriptural evidence

ChristisGod:




Scriptural evidence

Romans 8: 28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Ihedinobi3

IAmSabrina:

Romans 8: 28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Ihedinobi3

I can't believe this! And to justify my disbelieve, my position is that Scripture is not God! It's at best, a very bad image of God, though a very valuable one, but still an image. And we all know what we shouldn't be doing to images, I hope.

ChristisGod:
Is salvation strictly by the election of God or we merit it? Are people condemned to hell from birth?

Let's have you say based on scripture

There are actually four questions here including the thread title. Each question addresses something different.

1. Are people predestined to Heaven/Hell?
The answer to this is yes. See Romans 8:28-30; 9:11-29; Ephesians 1:11. Romans 3:5-8 is also very useful in understanding this.

The short explanation is this: we are not God. That means that we are unable to do anything at all without God's Own Enabling. For us to be able to do anything, including to choose to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, God must enable or empower us to do it.

Now, since God has always known who and who would want to believe once they are given the choice, He designed such people and creation around them so that they would choose to be saved. If He didn't do that, then they would not be able to choose what they want to choose.

The same thing applies to those who do not want to believe and be saved. God knew them before creating them. So He designed them to be able to choose to not believe and be saved.

This is what the Bible calls Predestination.


2. Is salvation strictly by election?
This is something called a loaded question. Salvation is by grace through faith, a free gift of God offered to all human beings. See John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9. Election is another matter altogether.

Election is woven together with Predestination and Salvation in the Bible, yes, but it is not the same thing as both. Election is God's Choice. That is, God elects some people or chooses them to be His. But He does this with discrimination (Ephesians 1:3-14). That is, there are qualifications involved in being elected. Only those who believe and remain steadfast in faith are elected.

Again, God knew who would stay true to Christ until the end of their earthly walk and therefore chose them because of their own free will choice to believe.


3. Do we merit Salvation?
Obviously not. See Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 3:16 again. Faith is not payment for Salvation. It is merely the means by which we receive it. It's like getting into an Ark to be saved from an unstoppable Flood. The act of going into the Ark is not something you do to be rewarded with Salvation, rather it is something you do to take advantage of salvation. Just like reaching out an open hand to receive a gift, we receive Salvation with the open hands of Faith. So, we do not merit it at all.


4. Are people condemned to Hell from birth?
See the answer in #1. No one is justified or condemned unilaterally. Those who are justified are justified because they believe. Those who are condemned are condemned because they do not.

The only exceptions here are children below the age of accountability and the mentally deficient who are so from birth. For them, because the Lord Jesus has paid for all sin, they are automatically saved since they did not reject Faith in Christ. In fact, every human being is written in the Book of Life because Jesus bought Eternal Life for all of us. People only lose it and thus have their names deleted from the Book of Life by persisting in rejecting Faith in Christ or failing to embrace it.


Let me know if anything is not clear.


CC: IAmSabrina

Ihedinobi3:

There are actually four questions here including the thread title. Each question addresses something different.

1. Are people predestined to Heaven/Hell?
The answer to this is yes. See Romans 8:28-30; 9:11-29; Ephesians 1:11. Romans 3:5-8 is also very useful in understanding this.

The short explanation is this: we are not God. That means that we are unable to do anything at all without God's Own Enabling. For us to be able to do anything, including to choose to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, God must enable or empower us to do it.

Now, since God has always known who and who would want to believe once they are given the choice, He designed such people and creation around them so that they would choose to be saved. If He didn't do that, then they would not be able to choose what they want to choose.

The same thing applies to those who do not want to believe and be saved. God knew them before creating them. So He designed them to be able to choose to not believe and be saved.

This is what the Bible calls Predestination.


2. Is salvation strictly by election?
This is something called a loaded question. Salvation is by grace through faith, a free gift of God offered to all human beings. See John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9. Election is another matter altogether.

Election is woven together with Predestination and Salvation in the Bible, yes, but it is not the same thing as both. Election is God's Choice. That is, God elects some people or chooses them to be His. But He does this with discrimination (Ephesians 1:3-14). That is, there are qualifications involved in being elected. Only those who believe and remain steadfast in faith are elected.

Again, God knew who would stay true to Christ until the end of their earthly walk and therefore chose them because of their own free will choice to believe.


3. Do we merit Salvation?
Obviously not. See Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 3:16 again. Faith is not payment for Salvation. It is merely the means by which we receive it. It's like getting into an Ark to be saved from an unstoppable Flood. The act of going into the Ark is not something you do to be rewarded with Salvation, rather it is something you do to take advantage of salvation. Just like reaching out an open hand to receive a gift, we receive Salvation with the open hands of Faith. So, we do not merit it at all.


4. Are people condemned to Hell from birth?
See the answer in #1. No one is justified or condemned unilaterally. Those who are justified are justified because they believe. Those who are condemned are condemned because they do not.

The only exceptions here are children below the age of accountability and the mentally deficient who are so from birth. For them, because the Lord Jesus has paid for all sin, they are automatically saved since they did not reject Faith in Christ. In fact, every human being is written in the Book of Life because Jesus bought Eternal Life for all of us. People only lose it by rejecting Faith in Christ or failing to embrace it.


Let me know if anything is not clear.


CC: IAmSabrina

Thanks for the time, what is not clear is the lack of clarity generally,

In one breath, you say men don't merit salvation since it is a free gift of God, in another you say it is our choice, please clarify


Also kindly WhatsApp me

ChristisGod:


Thanks for the time, what is not clear is the lack of clarity generally,

In one breath, you say men don't merit salvation since it is a free gift of God, in another you say it is our choice, please clarify.

That was precisely my understanding too Ihedinobi3. Do please clarify.

ChristisGod:


Thanks for the time, what is not clear is the lack of clarity generally,

In one breath, you say men don't merit salvation since it is a free gift of God, in another you say it is our choice, please clarify


Also kindly WhatsApp me

I try to answer every question as clearly as possible, but I understand that I am not always as clear as I want to be. So I appreciate specific questions like the one you asked here to help me try to clarify whatever is still fogged for whatever reason.

Regarding your specific request here, choice does not purchase salvation. When a gift is offered, we can accept it or reject it. In the matter of salvation, this is infinite times more true.

Salvation is from the just consequence of our rebellion against God. Every human being except the Lord Jesus is such a rebel and is condemned to the Second Death after this life. Or, that was the case until the Lord Jesus paid the Price of our sin and made us free from that consequence.

Now, although He has purchased our eternal pardon with His Spiritual Death on the Cross, no one is forced to accept that pardon. Everyone is perfectly free to reject it, if they prefer to. It is a most curious thing that anyone would, of course, but the vast majority of human beings from the beginning of human history until its end has rejected, is rejecting, and will reject it. The reason is that rebellion against God comes from arrogance, a very insane but intoxicating belief that a creature can depose its Creator and rise to take His Place.

This is what I meant. We all choose whether we will be saved or not, but we cannot pay for Salvation, since the price for it is too high for any human being, nay, any creature at all to bear. Only God Himself could pay it, and He did in Christ Jesus.

As for your WhatsApp request, please excuse my reluctance. I much prefer emailing. If you wish, you could email me at Ihedinobi3@gmail.com.


CC: budaatum

Ihedinobi3:

I try to answer every question as clearly as possible, but I understand that I am not always as clear as I want to be. So I appreciate specific questions like the one you asked here to help me try to clarify whatever is still fogged for whatever reason.

Regarding your specific request here, choice does not purchase salvation. When a gift is offered, we can accept it or reject it. In the matter of salvation, this is infinite times more true.

Salvation is from the just consequence of our rebellion against God. Every human being except the Lord Jesus is such a rebel and is condemned to the Second Death after this life. Or, that was the case until the Lord Jesus paid the Price of our sin and made us free from that consequence.

Now, although He has purchased our eternal pardon with His Spiritual Death on the Cross, no one is forced to accept that pardon. Everyone is perfectly free to reject it, if they prefer to. It is a most curious thing that anyone would, of course, but the vast majority of human beings from the beginning of human history until its end has, is, and will reject it. The reason is that rebellion against God comes from arrogance, a very insane but intoxicating belief that a creature can depose its Creator and rise to take His Place.

This is what I meant. We all choose whether we will be saved or not, but we cannot pay for Salvation, since the price for it is too high for any human being, nay, any creature at all to bear. Only God Himself could pay it, and He did in Christ Jesus.

As for your WhatsApp request, please excuse my reluctance. I much prefer emailing. If you wish, you could email me at Ihedinobi3@gmail.com.


CC: budaatum

Well thanks

ChristisGod:


Well thanks

You're quite welcome.

Ihedinobi3:

I try to answer every question as clearly as possible, but I understand that I am not always as clear as I want to be. So I appreciate specific questions like the one you asked here to help me try to clarify whatever is still fogged for whatever reason.

Regarding your specific request here, choice does not purchase salvation. When a gift is offered, we can accept it or reject it. In the matter of salvation, this is infinite times more true.

Salvation is from the just consequence of our rebellion against God. Every human being except the Lord Jesus is such a rebel and is condemned to the Second Death after this life. Or, that was the case until the Lord Jesus paid the Price of our sin and made us free from that consequence.

Now, although He has purchased our eternal pardon with His Spiritual Death on the Cross, no one is forced to accept that pardon. Everyone is perfectly free to reject it, if they prefer to. It is a most curious thing that anyone would, of course, but the vast majority of human beings from the beginning of human history until its end has, is, and will reject it. The reason is that rebellion against God comes from arrogance, a very insane but intoxicating belief that a creature can depose its Creator and rise to take His Place.

This is what I meant. We all choose whether we will be saved or not, but we cannot pay for Salvation, since the price for it is too high for any human being, nay, any creature at all to bear. Only God Himself could pay it, and He did in Christ Jesus.

As for your WhatsApp request, please excuse my reluctance. I much prefer emailing. If you wish, you could email me at Ihedinobi3@gmail.com.


CC: budaatum

Those two bolds categorically stand in opposition to predestination which in theology is "the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul."

If a thing is predestined, one does not have a choice, is the paradox, surely?

budaatum:

Those two bolds categorically stand in opposition to predestination which in theology is "the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul."

If a thing is predestined, one does not have a choice, is the paradox, surely?

Perhaps you should read my first response again.

Predestination is not Predetermination. Predestination is what happens when God guarantees the free will choices of His moral creatures with His Own Decree. Predetermination, on the other hand, is what happens when God creates no moral creatures at all.

Predetermination. The verb predetermine means "determine in advance," like when you predetermine how much money you will spend on your friend's birthday present to make shopping easier. Predetermine comes from the Latin word praedeterminare, from prae, meaning “beforehand,” and determinare, meaning “limit, settle.”

Both Predestination and Determinism posit that the future is inexorably locked into place. Predestination posits that God has determined all that will happen. ... The only difference is that determinism allows for randomness. Determinism implies that events are caused but those events are not sequentially fixed.

budaatum:
Predetermination. The verb predetermine means "determine in advance," like when you predetermine how much money you will spend on your friend's birthday present to make shopping easier. Predetermine comes from the Latin word praedeterminare, from prae, meaning “beforehand,” and determinare, meaning “limit, settle.”

Both Predestination and Determinism posit that the future is inexorably locked into place. Predestination posits that God has determined all that will happen. ... The only difference is that determinism allows for randomness. Determinism implies that events are caused but those events are not sequentially fixed.

I take very serious exception to straw man fallacies because they are essentially lies. If I make an argument, it may not be what you like, but it is what you have to respond to. You can't really just make something up and tell me to defend it.

Predestination does not "posit that the future is inexorably locked into place". It means that God has guaranteed creature free will with His Decree.

Sure enough, there is no possibility of a future that God does not know completely, but the future is the result of free will choices made by moral creatures who have been enabled by God to make those choices.

As I have explained elsewhere, for every moral creature, their future is wholly dependent on their free will choice of the moment. They have an absolutely real opportunity to pick any option they please between submitting willingly to God and rebelling against Him. These two alternatives are completely real and the ability to choose between them is just as real. The only thing of interest in the matter of predestination is that God knows what each moral creature will want to choose given a real opportunity to do so, so He decreed that each one will choose exactly that thing that they want. That means that each moral creature and their environment are wired to ensure that when the moral creature is given a real opportunity to make a choice, it will choose precisely what it wants without anything preventing that choice from being made.

In other words, as I said before, God's Decree guarantees creature free will.

So, no, the future is not fixed although God knows everything that is going to happen and is actively empowering it: we are actively creating the future with our choices everyday.

Ihedinobi3:

I take very serious exception to straw man fallacies because they are essentially lies. If I make an argument, it may not be what you like, but it is what you have to respond to. You can't really just make something up and tell me to defend it.

Predestination does not "posit that the future is inexorably locked into place". It means that God has guaranteed creature free will with His Decree.

Sure enough, there is no possibility of a future that God does not know completely, but the future is the result of free will choices made by moral creatures who have been enabled by God to make those choices.

As I have explained elsewhere, for every moral creature, their future is wholly dependent on their free will choice of the moment. They have an absolutely real opportunity to pick any option they please between submitting willingly to God and rebelling against Him. These two alternatives are completely real and the ability to choose between them is just as real. The only thing of interest in the matter of predestination is that God knows what each moral creature will want to choose given a real opportunity to do so, so He decreed that each one will choose exactly that thing that they want. That means that each moral creature and their environment are wired to ensure that when the moral creature is given a real opportunity to make a choice, it will choose precisely what it wants without anything preventing that choice from being made.

In other words, as I said before, God's Decree guarantees creature free will.

So, no, the future is not fixed although God knows everything that is going to happen and is actively empowering it: we are actively creating the future with our choices everyday.

Take exception to whatever you want please, you have the freewill to do so. Strawman is when one raises points to argue that are not in what is presented, and lying is when one presents falsehoods, neither of which you've shown me to do and essentially what you've done.

We've posted what is meant by predestination (destiny known before hand) and predetermination (choices made beforehand), both imply a knowledge of what would happen before it happens, which negates freewill, as you've described it. If one has freewill, then any notion of a future being predetermined or predestined is null and void since both words imply a foreknowledge prior to one making that choice however you wish to twist them to fit.

There is a way they do fit, but you are welcome to just say you don't know instead of presenting contradictions and claiming you've explained!

budaatum:

Take exception to whatever you want please, you have the freewill to do so. Strawman is when one raises points to argue that are not in what is presented, and lying is when one presents falsehoods, neither of which you've shown me to do and essentially what you've done.

We've posted what is meant by predestination (destiny known before hand) and predetermination (choices made beforehand), both imply a knowledge of what would happen before it happens, which negates freewill, as you've described it. If one has freewill, then any notion of a future being predetermined or predestined is null and void since both words imply a foreknowledge prior to one making that choice however you wish to twist them to fit.

There is a way they do fit, but you are welcome to just say you don't know instead of presenting contradictions and claiming you've explained!

I have explained how you made straw men already.

If you are disputing my definition of predestination, I am yet to see what the authority behind your own proposition is and why I should care about it since I am discussing a biblical concept. Predestination in the Bible means what it means. It isn't whatever budaatum wants it to be.

I have no doubt that predestination does not negate creature free will at all. I have also explained how. What I have not seen is precisely what is wrong with that explanation, since all you have been doing is attempt to force a questionable definition of predestination down my throat.

If you wish to make an argument, by all means do so. I will hear you out. At the moment, I am seeing very little reason to give your posts much credit.

IAmSabrina:

Romans 8: 28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

I

God pre-determined, not the IDENTITY of the saved, but the CHARACTER of the saved. unconditional election make the save no ENEMY of Satan, so if predestined, why beware?

Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that all things work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD , to them who are THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.For whom he did foreknow, he also predestinate TO BE CONFORM TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON , that he might be the firstborn among many
brethren. Moreover whom he predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

1. Who is under consideration here? "Them that love God" not a few whom God loves
2.The called according to His purpose," we are not called by a still, mysterious voice or by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit or by God Himself, but by the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14).
3.Those who hear, believe and respond in obedience are referred to as "the called" (Galatians 1:6; 1 Peter 2:9).
4.In Romans 8:28-30, we can see the unfolding of God's plan. God determined to send mankind a Savior to die for all men.
5.He foreordained all of the events before they actually took place.
6.In that sense, God predestinated our salvation. It was not that He selected us individually to be saved or lost, but that those who accepted the gospel call
would be saved.
7.Those who answer that call are justified and glorified.

budaatum:

Take exception to whatever you want please, you have the freewill to do so. Strawman is when one raises points to argue that are not in what is presented, and lying is when one presents falsehoods, neither of which you've shown me to do and essentially what you've done.

We've posted what is meant by predestination (destiny known before hand) and predetermination (choices made beforehand), both imply a knowledge of what would happen before it happens, which negates freewill, as you've described it. If one has freewill, then any notion of a future being predetermined or predestined is null and void since both words imply a foreknowledge prior to one making that choice however you wish to twist them to fit.

There is a way they do fit, but you are welcome to just say you don't know instead of presenting contradictions and claiming you've explained!

Regarding this,

"Strawman is when one raises points to argue that are not in what is presented, and lying is when one presents falsehoods, neither of which you've shown me to do and essentially what you've done,"

I was wrong about your making a straw man. Pardon my haste. But, as it is, I made the opening argument that you saw fit to respond to, so I couldn't have been the one making a straw man: I was not in any position to. As for presenting a falsehood, the only way I can see you accusing me of doing so is in the matter of defining predestination. If you accuse me of lying about its meaning, then the question would be how. I derive my definition from the Bible, which is not only the authority I prefer for my positions as a Christian in these discussions, but also the authority demanded by the thread itself. Your response was that

'...predestination...in theology is "the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul."'

I chose to not address the fact that you clearly did not offer this definition as deriving from the Bible itself but as deriving from "theology", which while it is indeed a term that is used for biblical interpretations is most certainly not automatically authoritative. Biblical interpretation can be faulty. Therefore, it is what the Bible actually says that counts every time, not merely what some person or other believes that it means. In addition to all that is also the matter that theology can be a catch-all term for all discussions of God without discrimination, so that, for all I know, you may have been quoting a Muslim strain of theology. You are an atheist with very little respect for the Bible, so I cannot automatically imagine that when you quote "theology", you are saying anything about the biblical position which is the interest of this thread.

So, can I then be said to be lying about the meaning of predestination on the strength of a definition that may have nothing at all to do with the Bible as you claim in the following quote?

"We've posted what is meant by predestination (destiny known before hand)..."

No, I think not. I would only be lying if the Bible does not say what I say that it says. Are you able to demonstrate that it does not? That really is the question. If you cannot, as I doubt very much that you can, you just made a false accusation and thus lied.

About the definition you quoted, it is correct. The other one though that said "destiny known before hand (sic)" addressed foreknowledge rather than predestination. The issue is that you either ignored the definition you gave or you did not understand it. God has willed or decreed everything that occurs in the Universe. Not a single thing happens outside of His Decree. But this does not mean that free will is thus negated, because God also decreed the real alternatives (just two: loyal submission to God and stubborn rebellion against Him) moral creatures have and the true ability that they possess to choose between them as well as their final free will choices. That is, predestination means that God has decreed that every single moral creature will be exactly what and who they want to be without anything preventing them from being so.

Regarding

"There is a way they do fit, but you are welcome to just say you don't know instead of presenting contradictions and claiming you've explained!"

First, I did explain, so this is really another lie. If my explanation was poor, the point of debate is to demonstrate its poverty. If I presented contradictions, then it should not be too hard to show that I did. But, you made your claims above and promptly left the discussion, as I find typical when atheists want their word to be law and unchallengeable. For those who are like you and wish to be authorities unto themselves and over others, of course, your pretentious pronouncements are enough to show that you are right. But, that is not how debate works. Every point must be substantiated with an argument and defended with further arguments until they prove themselves worthy of acceptance to rational people. That too is why your pronouncement that there is a way to reconcile predestination to free will is also meaningless in this conversation if it will not be followed with a demonstration. In fact, given that you also said that "if one has freewill, then any notion of a future being predetermined or predestined is null and void since both words imply a foreknowledge prior to one making that choice however you wish to twist them to fit," your pronouncement was very likely another lie. My guess is that you would probably capitalize on the notion that you subtly snuck in that something is wrong with my definition of free will as you said as follows,

"...freewill, as you've described it,"

to try to create another definition external to the Bible and force it on a biblical position.

You then have not only used straw man fallacies, but you have also told a fair amount of lies here, and I obviously can demonstrate that you have. Feel free to show how I myself have.

budaatum:
Predetermination. The verb predetermine means "determine in advance," like when you predetermine how much money you will spend on your friend's birthday present to make shopping easier. Predetermine comes from the Latin word praedeterminare, from prae, meaning “beforehand,” and determinare, meaning “limit, settle.”

Both Predestination and Determinism posit that the future is inexorably locked into place. Predestination posits that God has determined all that will happen. ... The only difference is that determinism allows for randomness. Determinism implies that events are caused but those events are not sequentially fixed.

if I may ask , what was predestined in this verse ?

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did
foreknow, he also did PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORM TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that
he might be the firstborn among many
brethren. Moreover whom he did
predestinate, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also
glorified."
Thus, as in the next passage (Ephesians 1), it was God's eternal plan that we become His children through Christ. not some or few, BUT ALL become His children through Christ. the verse is talking about Christ assembly and not selected individuals.

malvisguy212:
if I may ask , what was predestined in this verse ?

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did
foreknow, he also did PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORM TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that
he might be the firstborn among many
brethren. Moreover whom he did
predestinate, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also
glorified."
Thus, as in the next passage (Ephesians 1), it was God's eternal plan that we become His children through Christ. not some or few, BUT ALL become His children through Christ. the verse is talking about Christ assembly and not selected individuals.

The word predestined is clearly there. And if you read my response to Ihedinobi3, you'd read where I said "There is a way they do fit". But the above to me cannot mean some are specifically predestined to accept Christ and go to heaven and some are predestined not to and go to hell. If that were the case then everyone just better accept their lot and those who do accept Christ should not bother preaching to those who are already predestined by God to go to hell. My own view is that accepting Christ or not is a personal choice that everyone makes with their own freewill regardless of what Paul's view is to the Romans. Paul, after all is not the Almighty God.

Let me know what you think please.

budaatum:

The word predestined is clearly there. And if you read my response to Ihedinobi3, you'd read where I said "There is a way they do fit". But the above to me cannot mean some are specifically predestined to accept Christ and go to heaven and some are predestined not to and go to hell. If that were the case then everyone just better accept their lot and those who do accept Christ should not bother preaching to those who are already predestined by God to go to hell. My own view is that accepting Christ or not is a personal choice that everyone makes with the it own freewill regardless of what Paul's view is to the Romans. Paul, after all is not the Almighty God
Let me know what you think please.

yes, The scripture teaches predestination, but not Calvinistic
Predestination. it is the character of the save God predetermined and not the identity of the saved.


What is foreknown by God in these verse?Personal identity? Or Character, purpose & plan ?.

Ephesians 1:3-4, "Blessed be the God
and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who
hath blessed us with all spiritual
blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath CHOSEN US IN HIM
BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that
we should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME
before him in love:

Here, the verse is talking about the Nature of the save (character ) that they should be blameless .

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN , specially of THOSE THAT BELIEVE ."

You see, salvation is conditional. Christ died for
all men, but not all believe and accept His gift
of salvation.

malvisguy212:
yes, The scripture teaches predestination, but not Calvinistic
Predestination. it is the character of the save God predetermined and not the identity of the saved.


What is foreknown by God in these verse?Personal identity? Or Character, purpose & plan ?.

Ephesians 1:3-4, "Blessed be the God
and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who
hath blessed us with all spiritual
blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath CHOSEN US IN HIM
BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that
we should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME
before him in love:

Here, the verse is talking about the Nature of the save (character ) that they should be blameless .

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN , specially of THOSE THAT BELIEVE ."

You see, salvation is conditional. Christ died for
all men, but not all believe and accept His gift
of salvation.

Thank you. Calvinistic predestination is what I understood Ihedinobi3 to be proposing, and which I felt he could not resolve with his very own use of freewill. Both stand paradoxical to each other, is my understanding. But rather than fleshing it out he.........

budaatum:

Thank you. Calvinistic predestination is what I understood Ihedinobi3 to be proposing, and which I felt he could not resolve with his very own use of freewill. Both stand paradoxical to each other, is my understanding. But rather than fleshing it out he.........

yes, the truth is that God will is for everyone to believe, but is not that if God will everyone to believe then its is impossible not to believe . we still have the choice to reject for example in Matthew 23:37, Jesus laments over Jerusalem. He was certainly willing for them to be saved, but they were not.

malvisguy212:
yes, the truth is that God will is for everyone to believe, but is not that if God will everyone to believe then its is impossible not to believe . we still have the choice to reject for example in Matthew 23:37, Jesus laments over Jerusalem. He was certainly willing for them to be saved, but they were not.

OK...but when saved are they to are never but in to be gone?

BeLookingIDIOT:

OK...but when saved are they to are never but in to be gone?

I don't understand your question

budaatum:

Thank you. Calvinistic predestination is what I understood Ihedinobi3 to be proposing, and which I felt he could not resolve with his very own use of freewill. Both stand paradoxical to each other, is my understanding. But rather than fleshing it out he.........

I don't hold or teach Calvinism or Calvinistic predestination. And I have a difficult time believing that you even want to understand what I say.

Ihedinobi3:
I don't hold or teach Calvinism or Calvinistic predestination. And I have a difficult time believing that you even want to understand what I say.

I'd love to understand what you say Ihedinobi3, but I don't really think I am capable. Even you say you are not as clear as you want to be so, if you'd be more patient.

Predestination is a doctrine in Calvinism that claims God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass." The second use of the word "predestination" applies this to the salvation, and refers to the belief that God appointed the eternal destiny of some to salvation by grace, while leaving the remainder to receive eternal damnation for all their sins, even their original sin. The former is called "unconditional election", and the latter "reprobation". In Calvinism, people are predestined and effectually called in due time (regenerated/born again) to faith by God.

Ihedinobi3:

1. Are people predestined to Heaven/Hell?
The answer to this is yes. See Romans 8:28-30; 9:11-29; Ephesians 1:11. Romans 3:5-8 is also very useful in understanding this.

The short explanation is this: we are not God. That means that we are unable to do anything at all without God's Own Enabling. For us to be able to do anything, including to choose to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, God must enable or empower us to do it.

Now, since God has always known who and who would want to believe once they are given the choice, He designed such people and creation around them so that they would choose to be saved. If He didn't do that, then they would not be able to choose what they want to choose.

The same thing applies to those who do not want to believe and be saved. God knew them before creating them. So He designed them to be able to choose to not believe and be saved.

This is what the Bible calls Predestination.

If some are "predestined to Heaven", then it is not by their choice but by God's choice, and it's Calvinistic.

But you then go on to say "He designed such people and creation around them so that they would choose to be saved". I wonder if you are not mixing God's omniscientness with predestination?

Imagine Jonah, told to go to Nineveh but buggers off elsewhere. Did he choose to bugger off or did God predetermine he would bugger off?

If people "choose" then it is not predestined. And if it's predestined, it's not choice!

Ihedinobi3:
2. Is salvation strictly by election?
This is something called a loaded question. Salvation is by grace through faith, a free gift of God offered to all human beings. See John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9. Election is another matter altogether.

Election is woven together with Predestination and Salvation in the Bible, yes, but it is not the same thing as both. Election is God's Choice. That is, God elects some people or chooses them to be His. But He does this with discrimination (Ephesians 1:3-14). That is, there are qualifications involved in being elected. Only those who believe and remain steadfast in faith are elected.

Again, God knew who would stay true to Christ until the end of their earthly walk and therefore chose them because of their own free will choice to believe.

This must be one of your "not as clear as you wanna bes"!

What you call "election" is really choice. I'll explain. When I'm sticking my finger up shouting all over the place, "there are no gods", God probably wouldn't elect me. But when I repent and say "God, I see you", God might elect me. I must choose to accept God to be elected. None of this is predestined however.

God, in my opinion, may know (omnisciently) that I'll stop saying "there are no gods" and start saying "God, I see you" but God has not predestined me to sin, nor repent. My sin is my choice and not something God has predestined me to sin though God knew what I would do. It's like you watch a kid and know its going to fall. Your knowing did not predestinate the kids fall though, you were just omniscient about the kid falling.

Ihedinobi3:
In fact, every human being is written in the Book of Life because Jesus bought Eternal Life for all of us. People only lose it and thus have their names deleted from the Book of Life by persisting in rejecting Faith in Christ or failing to embrace it.

By choice, right, and not that God had predestined one's "persisting in rejecting Faith in Christ or failing to embrace it" ?

budaatum:

I'd love to understand what you say Ihedinobi3, but I don't really think I am capable. Even you say you are not as clear as you want to be so, if you'd be more patient.

With fellow believers, I am patient even though not many of them truly deserve such patience. I even extend the same courtesy to not just unbelievers but antichristians like the many I find on this board. You I find particularly deceptive, so I don't give you much attention. If your business is to understand the Christian Faith, I would be happy to teach you, more than happy, in fact, since I have nothing of greater value to give to anyone than the Gospel. But, I am not yet convinced that it is your interest at all to know what Christ has to say. I see in your antics the self-same games that many wolves in sheep's clothing who are destroying many believers in churches around the world today play. That is what earns you my impatience.

If this is difficult for you to understand, I mean that you are now passing yourself off as a Christian around people who don't know you well on this board even though you are an atheist. You enter Christian conversations pretending to share convictions and beliefs that you despise and mock among your cohorts. Right here, you present yourself as caring about what the Bible says and even apparent understanding biblical theology about which you know almost nothing. That is what I mean.

budaatum:
Predestination is a doctrine in Calvinism that claims God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass." The second use of the word "predestination" applies this to the salvation, and refers to the belief that God appointed the eternal destiny of some to salvation by grace, while leaving the remainder to receive eternal damnation for all their sins, even their original sin. The former is called "unconditional election", and the latter "reprobation". In Calvinism, people are predestined and effectually called in due time (regenerated/born again) to faith by God.

Yes, this is what many call Calvinism today. It may be more rightly called hyper-Calvinism. It is also not what I teach.

budaatum:
If some are "predestined to Heaven", then it is not by their choice but by God's choice, and it's Calvinistic.

But you then go on to say "He designed such people and creation around them so that they would choose to be saved". I wonder if you are not mixing God's omniscientness with predestination?

Imagine Jonah, told to go to Nineveh but buggers off elsewhere. Did he choose to bugger off or did God predetermine he would bugger off?

If people "choose" then it is not predestined. And if it's predestined, it's not choice!

I take for granted that you knew what my response to this would be: this is a standard false dichotomy. There is no either/or going on here except in your own imagination.

Words are weak to express what I am about to say but they will have to do: God exists on a much higher plane than creatures do. The difference between God's level of existence and man's is quite literally the difference between existence itself and things which exist. For that reason, creature free will has no chance of existing at all unless God's Own Sovereign Will decrees it.

So, where you see an opposition between the two, there really is the possibility of one because of the other.

budaatum:
This must be one of your "not as clear as you wanna bes"!

What you call "election" is really choice. I'll explain. When I'm sticking my finger up shouting all over the place, "there are no gods", God probably wouldn't elect me. But when I repent and say "God, I see you", God might elect me. I must choose to accept God to be elected. None of this is predestined however.

God, in my opinion, may know (omnisciently) that I'll stop saying "there are no gods" and start saying "God, I see you" but God has not predestined me to sin, nor repent. My sin is my choice and not something God has predestined me to sin though God knew what I would do. It's like you watch a kid and know its going to fall. Your knowing did not predestinate the kids fall though, you were just omniscient about the kid falling.

This I find delightful. You have come close, but you stopped short. I'll freely mention that I am particularly pleased that you recognize that omniscience has nothing to do with free will.

The one thing that you are missing is not quite surprising because atheists have a rather myopic view of existence. You consider your consciousness profound enough to expect yourself to possess agency. This is good because it means that you recognize your responsibility for your choices. But you do not quite appreciate that your existence is necessarily derived. If it wasn't, you yourself would be omniscient among other things, but you obviously aren't. Because your existence is derived, so is your agency. That means that you cannot make a choice unless you are empowered or enabled to.

That is where the problem is. Because man does not self-exist, his free will is only operational because something enables it to be. This is what God's Decree and Predestination is about. Your free will choices are made because God decrees those choices.

God's lack of responsibility for those choices stems from your actual possession of real alternatives and equal agency to act one way rather than another as well as your own core desire regarding who you want to be. It is because God knew that last before you ever came into existence that your choice was decreed by Him. If He decreed a choice for you that you did not yourself want, then your free will is violated and negated. But He didn't. He decreed for you exactly what you would want to choose so that you would actually be able to choose it at all.

budaatum:
By choice, right, and not that God had predestined one's "persisting in rejecting Faith in Christ or failing to embrace it" ?

As all the foregoing has explained, there isn't a single choice that is possible independent of God's Sovereign Decree. That is what predestination is about. God enables those who want to choose salvation to choose it and those who want to choose condemnation to choose it. Thus, each person is foreordained or predestined to Salvation or Condemnation - according to their own choice.

Ihedinobi3:

Words are weak to express what I am about to say but they will have to do: God exists on a much higher plane than creatures do. The difference between God's level of existence and man's is quite literally the difference between existence itself and things which exist. For that reason, creature free will has no chance of existing at all unless God's Own Sovereign Will decrees it.

Words, show what and how one thinks Ihedinobi3. They are like windows into the soul. If one's thinking is all over the place, one's words would be all over the place, and if one is evil it shows in ones words. I can only say we are lucky that all your neighbours believe as you do or God knows how impatient you'd be with the ones who are unbelievers, or atheists. I'm just thankful Jesus is much more patient than you. You might understand whom I'd rather be taught by.

You can't possibly believe the above. If you do believe it then you are suggesting you are not a creature, and are on the same higher plane as God or you wouldn't be suggesting you would teach buda the things on God's higher plane. Do know that buda does not fall for the ancient trick of "if you look on the face of God you shall die". buda goes up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel and does not wait for others to come back and tell me their own understanding and claim it came from God when the truth is they remained at the bottom of the mountain worshipping a calf made of gold whilst claiming "God exists on a much higher plane than creatures do". It's the well known trick that some use to elevate themselves above others that does not work with buda! Or are you not a creature too?


So, back to predestination. Eve. Imagine God predestined (or decreed) that the serpent would deceive Eve and Eve would deceive Adam. By your reasoning, all this was bound to happen exactly as it happened because "God's Own Sovereign Will decrees it" to happen exactly as it happened.

The following was Eve's punishment:

To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

And Adam's,

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

If human action was decreed, as you suggest, by God, then Adam and Eve did not have a choice in the matter since they had no freewill to chose other than what God had decreed they choose. So why should God punish Adam and Eve for what "God's Own Sovereign Will decreed" they should do? Doesn't that sound like some evil god to you?

budaatum:

Words, show what and how one thinks Ihedinobi3. They are like windows into the soul. If one's thinking is all over the place, one's words would be all over the place, and if one is evil it shows in ones words. I can only say we are lucky that all your neighbours believe as you do or God knows how impatient you'd be with the ones who are unbelievers, or atheists. I'm just thankful Jesus is much more patient than you. You might understand whom I'd rather be taught by.

You can't possibly believe the above. If you do believe it then you are suggesting you are not a creature, and are on the same higher plane as God or you wouldn't be suggesting you would teach buda the things on God's higher plane. Do know that buda does not fall for the ancient trick of "if you look on the face of God you shall die". buda goes up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel and does not wait for others to come back and tell me their own understanding and claim it came from God when the truth is they remained at the bottom of the mountain worshipping a calf made of gold whilst claiming "God exists on a much higher plane than creatures do". It's the well known trick that some use to elevate themselves above others that does not work with buda! Or are you not a creature too?


So, back to predestination. Eve. Imagine God predestined (or decreed) that the serpent would deceive Eve and Eve would deceive Adam. By your reasoning, all this was bound to happen exactly as it happened because "God's Own Sovereign Will decrees it" to happen exactly as it happened.

The following was Eve's punishment:

To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

And Adam's,

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

If human action was decreed, as you suggest, by God, then Adam and Eve did not have a choice in the matter since they had no freewill to chose other than what God had decreed they choose. So why should God punish Adam and Eve for what "God's Own Sovereign Will decreed" they should do? Doesn't that sound like some evil god to you?

That's a beautiful one budaatum!
The truth is people will choose life or death by themselves! Deuteronomy 30:15-20
Our names will be written in the "book of life" when we're able to recognize God's servants who have left their homes to come and discuss from the Bible with us as good neighbours! Matthew 10:3-15 compared to Malachi 3:16
RECOGNISING them matters most since there are those whom we might like but are Satan's agents! Malachi 3:18
So after recognising them,studying the Bible with them and putting what we learn into practice, our names are already written by God's angels who are moving about now watching all that people are interested in! Revelations 20:15