TATIME:
That's a beautiful one budaatum!
The truth is people will choose life or death by themselves! Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Imagine some claiming the "book of life" already has the names of the saved in it because God had predestined those who's name would be in it! That's
like regardless of how hard one tried, those predestined to go to hell would go to hell and those predestined for heaven go to heaven and what one does doesn't matter! That's just evil, in my opinion, and a belief that I will fight against because it can not possibly be of God!

I am not evil because I am predestined to be evil. I am evil because I choose to be evil with my very own God given freewill so I am responsible for my evil and God did not in any way decree that I would be evil. If I had any sense I would use that God given freewill to choose otherwise.

budaatum:

Imagine some claiming the "book of life" already has the names of the saved in it because God had predestined those who's name would be in it! That's
like regardless of how hard one tried, those predestined to go to hell would go to hell and those predestined for heaven go to heaven and what one does doesn't matter! That's just evil, in my opinion, and a belief that I will fight against because it can not possibly be of God!

I am not evil because I am predestined to be evil. I am evil because I choose to be evil with my very own God given freewill so I am responsible for my evil and God did not in any way decree that I would be evil. If I had any sense I would use that God given freewill to choose otherwise.

Please welcome a free home Bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses today and learn all that is required of you to become a Christian!
What you're hearing from them is inspired of the devil. Revelations 16:14
They're NOT Christians! Because even Jesus Christ STRUGGLED with his body to win the price! 1Peter 2:21
That's what John meant by saying "Jesus come in the flesh" 1John 4:2 because Jesus have to fight hard with that fleshly desires before He could successfully deliver His assignment!
So if someone is saying his/her name has been written in the book of life,what they are saying actually is that Jesus never lived as a man! Because if he does and they're claiming Christians[followers of Christ] then they also must fight hard to overcome the flesh!
Are they greater than Apostle Paul? Well he said "he is fighting hard everyday to maintain his Christlike virtues" 1Corinthians 9:27
Jehovah's Witnesses will teach you what to do,how to do it and to maintain your stand as a Christian. That is what all these ones are running away from,they'll say "JWs believe in works" but them they believe in faith. Whereas FAITH without WORKS is DEAD as in DEAD! James 2:26
Please welcome a FREE home Bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses,it won't cost you a thing! Revelation 22:17

budaatum:

Words, show what and how one thinks Ihedinobi3. They are like windows into the soul. If one's thinking is all over the place, one's words would be all over the place, and if one is evil it shows in ones words. I can only say we are lucky that all your neighbours believe as you do or God knows how impatient you'd be with the ones who are unbelievers, or atheists. I'm just thankful Jesus is much more patient than you. You might understand whom I'd rather be taught by.

You can't possibly believe the above. If you do believe it then you are suggesting you are not a creature, and are on the same higher plane as God or you wouldn't be suggesting you would teach buda the things on God's higher plane. Do know that buda does not fall for the ancient trick of "if you look on the face of God you shall die". buda goes up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel and does not wait for others to come back and tell me their own understanding and claim it came from God when the truth is they remained at the bottom of the mountain worshipping a calf made of gold whilst claiming "God exists on a much higher plane than creatures do". It's the well known trick that some use to elevate themselves above others that does not work with buda! Or are you not a creature too?

I am happy too that Jesus is Jesus, not me. I am also confident that your tune will be quite different if you witness His Second Advent, as it is likely that you will.

I am not responsible for how you choose to interpret what I say. I only said that it is difficult to express in human language the difference between God and creatures. Whatever we say to explain that difference will still fall short of capturing it. That has nothing to do with how I perceive myself.

As for whatever "buda" likes, that's "buda's" business, not mine. As I said, if your concern is to understand what the Bible teaches, I am happy to help. If it is not, I care nothing for what you have to say on biblical subjects.

budaatum:
So, back to predestination. Eve. Imagine God predestined (or decreed) that the serpent would deceive Eve and Eve would deceive Adam. By your reasoning, all this was bound to happen exactly as it happened because "God's Own Sovereign Will decrees it" to happen exactly as it happened.

The following was Eve's punishment:

To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

And Adam's,

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

If human action was decreed, as you suggest, by God, then Adam and Eve did not have a choice in the matter since they had no freewill to chose other than what God had decreed they choose. So why should God punish Adam and Eve for what "God's Own Sovereign Will decreed" they should do? Doesn't that sound like some evil god to you?

I have no reason to explain this anymore. That would be a grand waste of my time. If you actually have a problem with the explanations I have given, feel free to state what it is, and I will do my best to solve it. But I'm not going to continue explaining myself ad infinitum to someone who has no respect for the Bible and couldn't possibly care less what it actually says.

Ihedinobi3:

As I said, if your concern is to understand what the Bible teaches, I am happy to help. If it is not, I care nothing for what you have to say on biblical subjects.

I have no reason to explain this anymore. That would be a grand waste of my time. If you actually have a problem with the explanations I have given, feel free to state what it is, and I will do my best to solve it. But I'm not going to continue explaining myself ad infinitum to someone who has no respect for the Bible and couldn't possibly care less what it actually says.

You don't know what is written in the Bible Ihedinobi3, so no, I'm not taking lessons from you. All you have, like us all, is your own understanding of it, and on this particular topic, you haven't a clue. You are right though, that I lack respect for the Bible, though wrong about not caring what's written in it. Unlike you, I don't worship images of a very jealous God who said one should not bow down or worship graven images. Besides, my respect is for humans whom I see and not for unseen things. For in as much as I do for those I see, my God seems pretty pleased with me, or so the Bible says.

budaatum:

You don't know what is written in the Bible Ihedinobi3, so no, I'm not taking lessons from you. All you have, like us all, is your own understanding of it, and on this particular topic, you haven't a clue. You are right though, that I lack respect for the Bible, though wrong about not caring what's written in it. Unlike you, I don't worship images of a very jealous God who said one should not bow down or worship graven images. Besides, my respect is for humans whom I see and not for unseen things. For in as much as I do for those I see, my God seems pretty pleased with me, or so the Bible says.

You are absolutely free to believe what you please. You lie, however, when you claim to care about what is written in the Bible. One only cares about what another has to say if they think that what that person has to say is important. So, you can't both have no respect for the Bible and also care about what it says.

That is why you also lie about what the Bible says and also wish that no one can accurately interpret it, because then your deceit would be blown wide open.

There are plenty other people just like you who think that they can make the Bible say whatever they like. One has come to congratulate you on your efforts here and invite you to join him and others like him. I encourage you to direct your attention to him and others like him.

Edit: I notice that you also just accused me of idolatry. Your lies are multiplying with each post. Are you about to accuse me of worshiping a book and then proceed to make some kind of incredulous argument for how the Bible is a graven image? I wouldn't put it past you.

TATIME:
Please welcome a free home Bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses today and learn all that is required of you to become a Christian!

The Bible is very clear on what one must do to please God, Tatime, and I can read.

Ihedinobi3:
You are absolutely free to believe what you please. You lie, however, when you claim to care about what is written in the Bible. One only cares about what another has to say if they think that what that person has to say is important. So, you can't both have no respect for the Bible and also care about what it says.

According to you I guess. Or where in the Bible is one asked to respect the Bible? Just so you know though, what you have to say is not important at all. I'm interested though.

Ihedinobi3:
That is why you also lie about what the Bible says and also wish that no one can accurately interpret it, because then your deceit would be blown wide open.

I'm certain it can very easily be determined if one lies about what is written down and which anyone can go and check. So go on, blow!

Ihedinobi3:
There are plenty other people just like you who think that they can make the Bible say whatever they like.

Well, that explains you, I guess, trying to twist predestination to fit in with freewill. But you wouldn't be the first to think your own understanding is the Word of God. buda ain't buying it though since I haven't found anything to support your claim.

Ihedinobi3:
Edit: I notice that you also just accused me of idolatry. Your lies are multiplying with each post. Are you about to accuse me of worshiping a book and then proceed to make some kind of incredulous argument for how the Bible is a graven image? I wouldn't put it past you.

Well, when you ask for a book to be respected I can't but assume you'd like it revered and worshipped too, but the Bible is not God so need not be worshipped or respected even, but read and learned from.

budaatum:

According to you I guess. Or where in the Bible is one asked to respect the Bible? Just so you know though, what you have to say is not important at all. I'm interested though.


I'm certain it can very easily be determined if one lies about what is written down and which anyone can go and check. So go on, blow!


Well, that explains you, I guess, trying to twist predestination to fit in with freewill. But you wouldn't be the first to think your own understanding is the Word of God. buda ain't buying it though since I haven't found anything to support your claim.


Well, when you ask for a book to be respected I can't but assume you'd like it revered and worshipped too, but the Bible is not God so need not be worshipped or respected even, but read and learned from.

To be clear, I don't consider any further discussion with you meaningful or useful. So I am disengaging now.

Just so you are clear where I stand, ihedi, God has not predetermined who would go to hell. If God had predetermined who would go to hell then it wouldn't matter what one did since ones destiny is already written and God wouldn't have bothered to send God's only begotten son to change what had already been predestined. Each of us chooses to go to hell by our own God given freewill. And those who choose not to do so choose of their own freewill. Whether one does God's will or not is up to oneself and is in no way predetermined or determined by God.

[quote author=IAmSabrina post=76792116]
Romans 8: 28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Nononononono


I totally disagree with this interpretation ma..


Firstly vs 28 says for those who are called according to his purpose. The question now is who is not called? cos Jeremiah 1:5 shows that you've been called even before you were born, let's assume you don't read the Bible but as long as you've heard the word of God probably through a preacher or by any other means that's God calling you and 1 Timothy 2:4 makes us understand that it is the will of God for EVERYBODY TO BE SAVED
Vs 29 God already configured everyone to the image of his son which is salvation, your default setting is to be like Jesus
So the issue here is are people answering their calls?
You can't be justified or glorified if you don't answer that call

ChristisGod:
Is salvation strictly by the election of God or we merit it? Are people condemned to hell from birth?

Let's have you say based on scripture

Read 1timothy 2:4 sir it States clearly that the will of God is for all men to be saved

Tfbaby:
Read 1timothy 2:4 sir it States clearly that the will of God is for all men to be saved

I agree.
There are also bible verses that clearly state election and divine choice.

Now Christians are left with a dilemma. Both positions are supported in the Bible. Either you choose one side and ignore the verses that support the other, or you attempt to deceive yourself trying to reconcile both, while they are clearly mutually exclusive.

There is a third possibility though. And it is that the Bible is written by men and therefore is filled with the best and the worst of humanity.

Ihedinobi3:

Perhaps you should read my first response again.

Predestination is not Predetermination. Predestination is what happens when God guarantees the free will choices of His moral creatures with His Own Decree. Predetermination, on the other hand, is what happens when God creates no moral creatures at all.

Ihedinobi3:

Perhaps you should read my first response again.

Predestination is not Predetermination. Predestination is what happens when God guarantees the free will choices of His moral creatures with His Own Decree. Predetermination, on the other hand, is what happens when God creates no moral creatures at all.

malvisguy212:
God pre-determined, not the IDENTITY of the saved, but the CHARACTER of the saved. unconditional election make the save no ENEMY of Satan, so if predestined, why beware?

Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that all things work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD , to them who are THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.For whom he did foreknow, he also predestinate TO BE CONFORM TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON , that he might be the firstborn among many
brethren. Moreover whom he predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

1. Who is under consideration here? "Them that love God" not a few whom God loves
2.The called according to His purpose," we are not called by a still, mysterious voice or by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit or by God Himself, but by the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14).
3.Those who hear, believe and respond in obedience are referred to as "the called" (Galatians 1:6; 1 Peter 2:9).
4.In Romans 8:28-30, we can see the unfolding of God's plan. God determined to send mankind a Savior to die for all men.
5.He foreordained all of the events before they actually took place.
6.In that sense, God predestinated our salvation. It was not that He selected us individually to be saved or lost, but that those who accepted the gospel call
would be saved.
7.Those who answer that call are justified and glorified.

bless you bro.

LoJ:
I agree.
There are also bible verses that clearly state election and divine choice.

Now Christians are left with a dilemma. Both positions are supported in the Bible. Either you choose one side and ignore the verses that support the other, or you attempt to deceive yourself trying to reconcile both, while they are clearly mutually exclusive.

There is a third possibility though. And it is that the Bible is written by men and therefore is filled with the best and the worst of humanity.

Sir if you read the scriptures carefully especially the Pauline epistles you will know that God's Elect or the chosen ones are not yet saved in 2Timothy 2:10 which says therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect (The Elect is the same as the Chosen Ones) so that they may attain salvation that is in Jesus Christ which is accompanied with eternal glory.
Let's take Israel as an example, we all know that israel is a chosen nation but the that stopped them from sinning and falling NO......its just like you telling someone that am my father's favorite, yea you can be the favorite child and still not do what the father wants.

ELECT>>>SALVATION>>>SAINTHOOD>>>PERFECTION


Lastly before I say anything about the Bible let me ask what it is the Bible to you

Ihedinobi3:

To be clear, I don't consider any further discussion with you meaningful or useful. So I am disengaging now.

This man sounds more of a typical branhamite, quick to insult people who ain't align with their views, always seem to know better than others, proud etc... Buda is so on point, life and death are just placed before us, it's up to humans, even though God charges us to choose life but not force anyone... Humans have will to key into God's ordered plans

damocool:

This man sounds more of a typical branhamite, quick to insult people who ain't align with their views, always seem to know better than others, proud etc... Buda is so on point, life and death are just placed before us, it's up to humans, even though God charges us to choose life but not force anyone... Humans have will to key into God's ordered plans

You consider it an insult when I say that I don't find further discussion worth my time and energy? Are you sure that it is what I said that you find insulting, and perhaps not my temerity in choosing to disagree with a position you prefer?

Edit: I'm not sure either if you are suggesting that I have argued that God forces anyone to choose anything. If you are, then you would be joining your friend budaatum in lying about my position.

As I already said several times, everyone is free to choose. Predestination does not negate that. Rather, it guarantees it. That is what Paul teaches in earlier passages I shared (which, of course, budaatum, promptly dismissed since "Paul after all is not Almighty God", just like the quintessential atheist would do) and what you will find throughout the Bible.

Folks pay attention, where is it written that we are going to Heaven? Did Christ Ever say so?

We are not going to heaven! But those who do not qualify for Life, are surely going to Hell

Ihedinobi3:

Edit: I'm not sure either if you are suggesting that I have argued that God forces anyone to choose anything. If you are, then you would be joining your friend budaatum in lying about my position.

buda never said you said God forced anyone to choose anything, ihe! But then, it surprises me not that you misunderstand since your writing is as unclear as your ability to comprehend, it would seem.

Your position, so you understand it is that God has already chosen for one so one has no choice at all!

Ihedinobi3:
As I already said several times, everyone is free to choose. Predestination does not negate that. Rather, it guarantees it. That is what Paul teaches in earlier passages I shared (which, of course, budaatum, promptly dismissed since "Paul after all is not Almighty God", just like the quintessential atheist would do) and what you will find throughout the Bible.

Yes it does ihe!

Tfbaby:




Read 1timothy 2:4 sir it States clearly that the will of God is for all men to be saved

Indeed. Yet some men choose to not be saved by their own freewill.

Dtruthspeaker:
Folks pay attention, where is it written that we are going to Heaven? Did Christ Ever say so?

We are not going to heaven! But those who do not qualify for Life, are surely going to Hell

The Bible does teach that when believers die, they will go to Heaven (see Revelation 6:9-11; Hebrews 12:22-23; Philippians 1:23, for example).

At the 2nd Advent though, all departed believers and all living believers will be resurrected to rule over the Earth for a thousand years. So, while I am sure that those resurrected believers will be able and free to go into the Third Heaven and return to Earth as they please - just as the angels do today - they will be primarily on Earth since the Kingdom of Heaven will have conquered Earth and taken it over then and they will be ruling it with Christ. See Revelation 20:4, for example: the Bible is filled with teaching about this elsewhere.

To begin Eternity, the Lord Jesus will destroy this Creation with fire, then He will make a completely new one full of righteousness and light (there will be no more darkness, and on the new earth no more sea). See Revelation 20:11; 21:1; 2 Peter 3:11-13. It is to the new earth that the Lord Jesus will create that the New Jerusalem (God's New Capital) will descend. See Revelation 21:2. From there, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ will rule over all creation. All believers and all angels will then live on earth again just like the angels had in the beginning before Satan rebelled and that Creation was submerged in a dark universal sea as a response of divine judgment. Although too we will live on the New Earth, we will have full access to the whole Universe since we will rule it all together with God.

So, yes, we will go to Heaven, and you are right too that Heaven is not the final destination. The New Earth is.

LoJ:
I agree.
There are also bible verses that clearly state election and divine choice.

Now Christians are left with a dilemma. Both positions are supported in the Bible. Either you choose one side and ignore the verses that support the other, or you attempt to deceive yourself trying to reconcile both, while they are clearly mutually exclusive.

There is a third possibility though. And it is that the Bible is written by men and therefore is filled with the best and the worst of humanity.

Or a fourth, LoJ. One can request the assistance of the Holy Ghost, whom the Father sent in Christ's name to teach all things and bring all things to one's understanding.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=77121134]
The Bible does teach that when believers die, they will go to Heaven (see Revelation 6:9-11; Hebrews 12:22-23, for example).

Checked the above passages, nothing about us "going" to heaven in them.

I repeat, did Christ ever say that we are going to heaven?

Ihedinobi3:

You consider it an insult when I say that I don't find further discussion worth my time and energy? Are you sure that it is what I said that you find insulting, and perhaps not my temerity in choosing to disagree with a position you prefer?

Edit: I'm not sure either if you are suggesting that I have argued that God forces anyone to choose anything. If you are, then you would be joining your friend budaatum in lying about my position.

As I already said several times, everyone is free to choose. Predestination does not negate that. Rather, it guarantees it. That is what Paul teaches in earlier passages I shared (which, of course, budaatum, promptly dismissed since "Paul after all is not Almighty God", just like the quintessential atheist would do) and what you will find throughout the Bible.

Maybe you should check one of ur earlier responses to him and you will figure that out. The man never used any insulting words against you, you can see humility in his words despite not a believer as u claimed.. Sir, claiming to know above others doesn't makes you any better than them.. Even the word himself was humble during his time.. It's not by knowing all but having the nature of Christ..

Dtruthspeaker:
Checked the above passages, nothing about us "going" to heaven in them.

I repeat, did ever say that we are going to heaven?

I was hoping that you would not take this route.

In Revelation, John was describing what he was seeing in Heaven. In 6:9-11, he saw Christian martyrs (they were clearly dead since they had been beheaded) crowded around the foot of the Altar in Heaven (the Altar is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, so it is really around Christ that these martyrs were congregated). Now, even if anyone might say that it was only martyrs who were mentioned there, they would still be admitting that when some Christians die, they go to Heaven. Of course, it is not only Christian martyrs that go to Heaven. Every believer who dies until the Second Advent goes to Heaven too.

In Hebrews 12:22-23, Paul clearly stated that he was speaking of the heavenly Jerusalem. I cannot see what else that would mean apart from "the Jerusalem in Heaven". It is in this Heavenly Jerusalem that among other people, we find "the spirits of just men made perfect," that is, the departed saints who have finished their Race on earth.

If then any believers at all who have died are found in Heaven, how did they get there without "going" there?

damocool:

Maybe you should check one of ur earlier responses to him and you will figure that out. The man never used any insulting words against you, you can see humility in his words despite not a believer as u claimed.. Sir, claiming to know above others doesn't makes you any better than them.. Even the word himself was humble during his time.. It's not by knowing all but having the nature of Christ..

Please be assured that I am not interested in proving anything about myself. I was only noting your opinion of me and taking the opportunity to ask you to examine your own self since you have already begun to judge in the matter.

It is of little account to me what you or anyone thinks of me. My one concern is always to make sure that I am in agreement with the Truth of the Bible. To be sure of that, I appeal to the Bible, not to the opinions of other people about me and what I say.

Is any of that true of you? Are you in this conversation because you believe the Bible and wish to encourage other such believers in the Truth? Or are you here hunting people to correct and attach labels to?

Ihedinobi3:

So, yes, we will go to Heaven, and you are right too that Heaven is not the final destination. The New Earth is.

Just saw this part. I see that you have not seen what heaven Really is.

Check, especially how/when Christ used heaven, see what you may discover.

Check your discovery against All the times 'heaven' was used.

Ihedinobi3:

So, yes, we will go to Heaven, and you are right too that Heaven is not the final destination. The New Earth is.

Just saw this part. I see that you have not seen what heaven Really is.

Check, especially how/when Christ used heaven, see what you may discover.

Check your discovery against All the times 'heaven' was used in other portions of the bible.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=77122087]
I was hoping that you would not take this route.

In Revelation, John was describing what he was seeing in Heaven. In 6:9-11, he saw Christian martyrs....

Check it out, did John go to heaven or he went somewhere?

The answer is in Revelations 1:10

damocool:

Maybe you should check one of ur earlier responses to him and you will figure that out. The man never used any insulting words against you, you can see humility in his words despite not a believer as u claimed.. Sir, claiming to know above others doesn't makes you any better than them.. Even the word himself was humble during his time.. It's not by knowing all but having the nature of Christ..

Please Lord, make us A New Wine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ozGKlOzEVc

[Verse 1]
In the crushing, in the pressing
You are making new wine
In the soil I, now surrender
You are breaking new ground

[Pre-Chorus]
So I yield to You and to Your careful hand
When I trust You, I don't need to understand

[Chorus]
Make me Your vessel, make me an offering
Make me whatever You want me to be
I came here with nothing but all You have given me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me

[Verse 2]
In the crushing, in the pressing
You are making new wine
In the soil I, now surrender
You are breaking new ground
You are breaking new ground

[Chorus]
Make me Your vessel, make me an offering
Make me whatever You want me to be
I came here with nothing but all You have given me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me

[Bridge]
Where there is new wine
There is new power
There is new freedom
The Kingdom is here
I lay down my old flames
To carry Your new fire today
Where there is new wine
There is new power
There is new freedom
And the Kingdom is here
I lay down my old flames
To carry Your new fire today

[Chorus]
Make me Your vessel, make me an offering
Make me whatever You want me to be
God, I came here with nothing but all You have given me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me

[Chorus]
Make me Your vessel, make me an offering
Make me whatever You want me to be
I came here with nothing but all You have given me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Make me, make me
Make me Your vessel, make me an offering
Make me whatever You want me to be
God, I came here with nothing but all You have given me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me

[Bridge]
Where there is new wine
There is new power
There is new freedom
The Kingdom is here
I lay down my old flames
To carry Your new fire today
Where there is new wine
There is new power
There is new freedom
And the Kingdom is here
I lay down my old flames
To carry Your new fire today

[Chorus]
As long as You
Make me Your vessel, make me an offering
Make me whatever You want me to be
I came here with nothing but all You have given me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me
Jesus, bring new wine out of me

Dtruthspeaker:


Just saw this part. I see that you have not seen what heaven Really is.

Check, especially how/when Christ used heaven, see what you may discover.

Check your discovery against All the times 'heaven' was used.

I'm afraid I don't see how I can see something that you apparently saw exclusively. I have been reading the Bible a long time, and I have learned from a gifted and prepared teacher - and still do, in fact. It is what I have learned that I have shared. If it is not the same as what you see in the Bible, then it is unlikely that I will ever see what you see without your stating what it is.

It is my impression that you may be looking to show off something about your own spiritual status, and that you have a pet doctrine that you also wish to show off. If this is correct, I must confess my lack of interest. It is enough for me to discuss the Bible rather than people's perceptions of themselves or of other people.

Dtruthspeaker:
Check it out, did John go to heaven or he went somewhere?

The answer is in Revelations 1:10

See Revelation 4:1-2.