LordReed:


Before we go on define Absolute Morality.

So if I desire the ultimate candy that means there's an ultimate candy god?

Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong, regardless of the context of the act. Thus, actions are inherently moral or immoral, regardless of the beliefs and goals of the individual, society or culture that engages in the actions.

If you desire candy, it simply means candy is your choice. It's not a moral question. If you desire to molest a kid, it is wrong/evil regardless of you or any other person's belief on whether it's good or not.

Christianity is the biggest scam ever... This is especially true in Nigeria.

icemania:
Christianity is the biggest scam ever... This is especially true in Nigeria.

Not Christianity but some churches.

9inches:
Not Christianity but some churches

Keep quiet. All of Christianity na scam. You are a scammer.

RuthlessLeader:

Keep quiet. All of Christianity na scam. You are a scammer.

What an intelligent argument... You won the debate even without saying much. Please teach me how to argue like you.

9inches:
Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong, regardless of the context of the act. Thus, actions are inherently moral or immoral, regardless of the beliefs and goals of the individual, society or culture that engages in the actions.

If you desire candy, it simply means candy is your choice. It's not a moral question. If you desire to molest a kid, it is wrong/evil regardless of you or any other person's belief on whether it's good or not.

So how does your god instructing a spirit to go lie show that there is such an absolute standard?

Argument from desire: Briefly and roughly, the argument states that humans’ natural desire for eternal happiness must be capable of satisfaction, because all natural desires are capable of satisfaction. Source

So if I desire the ultimate satisfaction in my candy taste it follows that there is a candy god that can satisfy my desire. This is your argument from desire. Show me why I should not make such a conclusion.

9inches:
What an intelligent argument... You won the debate even without saying much. Please teach me how to argue like you.

I just made a statement. If you want to be a better debater, provide evidence for your claims.

LordReed:


So how does your god instructing a spirit to go lie show that there is such an absolute standard?

Argument from desire: Briefly and roughly, the argument states that humans’ natural desire for eternal happiness must be capable of satisfaction, because all natural desires are capable of satisfaction. Source

So if I desire the ultimate satisfaction in my candy taste it follows that there is a candy god that can satisfy my desire. This is your argument from desire. Show me why I should not make such a conclusion.

God does not instruct evil, he permits it. You've heard about the story of Job in the bible, haven't you?

9inches:


God does not instruct evil, he permits it. You've heard about the story of Job in the bible, haven't you?

LoL! This:

1 Kings 22:22 King James Version (KJV)
...And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

is not an instruction? LMFAO!

LordReed:


So how does your god instructing a spirit to go lie show that there is such an absolute standard?

Again, it was not an instruction.
"And one said this, another that, until this spirit came forth and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will deceive him.’ The LORD asked: How? He answered, ‘I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The LORD replied: You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this."
God permits evil as punishment and to bring about a greater good. There are a couple more passages like that in the bible.

Argument from desire: Briefly and roughly, the argument states that humans’ natural desire for eternal happiness must be capable of satisfaction, because all natural desires are capable of satisfaction. Source

So if I desire the ultimate satisfaction in my candy taste it follows that there is a candy god that can satisfy my desire. This is your argument from desire. Show me why I should not make such a conclusion.

Can your candy (material thing) give you eternal happiness (immaterial)? I'd say no on your behalf.

LordReed:


LoL! This:

1 Kings 22:22 King James Version (KJV)
...And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

is not an instruction? LMFAO!

Not an instruction, but a permission. The spirit was willing and was permitted. Same manner the devil was permitted to tempt Job, and a couple of other instances like that in the bible.

RuthlessLeader:

I just made a statement. If you want to be a better debater, provide evidence for your claims.

Guilty conscience? I didn't say anything bad about you statement.

RuthlessLeader:
Keep quiet. All of Christianity na scam. You are a scammer.

9inches:


Again, it was not an instruction.
"And one said this, another that, until this spirit came forth and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will deceive him.’ The LORD asked: How? He answered, ‘I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The LORD replied: You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this."
God permits evil as punishment and to bring about a greater good. There are a couple more passages like that in the bible.

9inches:
Not an instruction, but a permission. The spirit was willing and was permitted. Same manner the devil was permitted to tempt Job, and a couple of other instances like that in the bible.

LoL! This sugar coating white wash does not fly at all. A permission is also a type of instruction but even if we decide to overlook that how does giving permission to evil establish that there is an absolute standard? If the god can give permission for evil then I do not see how the standard is an absolute one. As you so rightly pointed out an absolute standard means there is no possible scenario where breaking it is justified.

This isn't the only example of your god's actions clearly negating any so called absolute standard. So it means your god doesn't think much of absolute standards, doesn't it?

Can your candy (material thing) give you eternal happiness (immaterial)? I'd say no on your behalf.

Don't get it twisted, I did not say I was seeking eternal happiness from candy. What I said is, if I seek the ultimate satisfaction in a candy does that mean there is a candy god capable of fulfilling that desire because as your argument posits if an ultimate desire is capable of being satisfied there therefore exists a god capable of providing that satisfaction. My question to you follows your own logic so show me how I am wrong to reach such a conclusion while you are right to reach the same conclusion.

9inches:


God does not instruct evil, he permits it. You've heard about the story of Job in the bible, haven't you?

this one got me, God does not instruct evil?

joseph1013:
Wow... I have been out of circulation for many days now.

I can see that 9inches is still with the same usual argument for the Abrahamic divinity.

The only problem is that he is unable to provide evidence for such an entity.

Well...

Is your statement True?

Funaki:
this one got me, God does not instruct evil?

He does not.

LordReed:


LoL! This sugar coating white wash does not fly at all. A permission is also a type of instruction but even if we decide to overlook that how does giving permission to evil establish that there is an absolute standard? If the god can give permission for evil then I do not see how the standard is an absolute one. As you so rightly pointed out an absolute standard means there is no possible scenario where breaking it is justified.

This isn't the only example of your god's actions clearly negating any so called absolute standard. So it means your god doesn't think much of absolute standards, doesn't it?

Permission is not instruction. Sorry, absolute standard of what? Maybe quote my post you're referring to, or you could rephrase your question.

Don't get it twisted, I did not say I was seeking eternal happiness from candy. What I said is, if I seek the ultimate satisfaction in a candy does that mean there is a candy god capable of fulfilling that desire because as your argument posits if an ultimate desire is capable of being satisfied there therefore exists a god capable of providing that satisfaction. My question to you follows your own logic so show me how I am wrong to reach such a conclusion while you are right to reach the same conclusion.

I think I see where you are having difficulty understanding. When you desire a candy, the satisfaction you're going to get will be limited to that which the candy can give. The candy is a product of a limited number of ingredients each of which is of course limited. Therefore, you cannot get an ultimate satisfaction from that candy because there's always some other candy made of different ingredients that offers different kind or even a higher satisfaction.

The candy as discussed above is a "good" but not ultimate good, because just like food, you'll eat and hunger again. Now when we speak of God, we mean the ultimate Good.. or Goodness itself. He is the Source of everything Good.

Try to listen, if you could, carefully to the short clip I posted much earlier "Why do we believe in God". By the second or third watch, you'll get the whole point. You'll probably get it the first time.

9inches:
He does not.

1 Samuel 15:1 One day, Samuel told Saul:

The Lord had me choose you to be king of his people, Israel. Now listen to this message from the Lord: 2 “When the Israelites were on their way out of Egypt, the nation of Amalek attacked them. I am the Lord All-Powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay!

3 “Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don’t have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”


Saul even has pity more than God

Funaki:


1 Samuel 15:1 One day, Samuel told Saul:

The Lord had me choose you to be king of his people, Israel. Now listen to this message from the Lord: 2 “When the Israelites were on their way out of Egypt, the nation of Amalek attacked them. I am the Lord All-Powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay!

3 “Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don’t have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”


Saul even has pity more than God

I see your point. Punishment is a morally wrong/evil in your worldview. Am I right?

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9inches:


I see your point. Punishment is a morally wrong/evil in your worldview. Am I right?

No killing children is evil.

RuthlessLeader:

No killing children is evil.

christians do not see anything wrong with killing babies.

9inches:

Permission is not instruction. Sorry, absolute standard of what? Maybe quote my post you're referring to, or you could rephrase your question.

I think I see where you are having difficulty understanding. When you desire a candy, the satisfaction you're going to get will be limited to that which the candy can gives. The candy is a product of a limited number of ingredients each of which is of course limited. Therefore, you cannot get an ultimate satisfaction from that candy because there's always some other candy made of different ingredients that offers different kind or even a higher satisfaction.

The candy as discussed above is a "good" but not ultimate good, because just like food, you'll eat and hunger again. Now when we speak of God, we mean the ultimate Good.. or Goodness itself. He is the Source of everything Good.

Try to listen if you could carefully to the short clip I posted much earlier "Why do we believe in God". By the second or third watch, you'll get the whole point. You'll probably get it the first time.

Ok so you don't believe your god is the foundation and arbiter of an absolute morality system?

9inches:


I see your point. Punishment is a morally wrong/evil in your worldview. Am I right?

you call that punishment ?

Amalek attacked Israel in the wilderness, Israel retaliated, they prevailed, Israel won. Isn't that punishment enough ? But that wasn't enough. God had to destroy everyone of them. Men, women, children, babies, all living things. By the way, these weren't the people that attacked Israel, this was years later.

You don't call this punishment, it's genocide. plain and simple.

RuthlessLeader:

No killing children is evil.

By whose subjective standard? Isn't that an opinion, or do you believe in moral absolutes?

TVSA:
christians do not see anything wrong with killing babies.

How did you come to that conclusion?

LordReed:


Ok so you don't believe your god is the foundation and arbiter of an absolute morality system?

On the contrary, morality itself points to a moral giver. Absolute morality can only come from an absolute source. God is what people of faith call that source. If such standard doesn't exist beyond you and I, then it's purely reasonable to say we are the source our individual morality, which is another way of saying we have our opinions on what's right and wrong... and if that's the case, I don't see why you would infringe on someone else's (Hitler or Bin Laden for example) right to his/her opinion. You get the point?

Funaki:


you call that punishment ?

Amalek attacked Israel in the wilderness, Israel retaliated, they prevailed, Israel won. Isn't that punishment enough ? But that wasn't enough. God had to destroy everyone of them. Men, women, children, babies, all living things. By the way, these weren't the people that attacked Israel, this was years later.

You don't call this punishment, it's genocide. plain and simple.

Isn't that punishment enough? This a good question. By whose standard do you gauge sin and punishment?

If you're an atheist, by what standard are you judging the God of the bible? Because if there's no God, there's no objective standard or morality; it's just your opinion. So for you to say the God of the bible is evil, what do you mean by evil? Why is genocide wrong if there's no God? You have to be the moral arbiter of the universe to be able to make such moral judgment. See, you can be an atheist and make a moral argument but such argument wouldn't be grounded if God does not exist. It would be a mere opinion.

Now, let's address the reality here of you using God to argue against God. If you admit here of having no such objective standard of morality and you're supposedly saying if the God of the bible is loving, why does he do these things in violation of his own laws? That also is a good question.

As for the Amalekites: See Exodus 17:8-16 and Deutronomy 25:17–19

9inches:
On the contrary, morality itself points to a moral giver. Absolute morality can only come from an absolute source. God is what people of faith call that source. If such standard doesn't exist beyond you and I, then it's purely reasonable to say we are the source our individual morality, which is another way of saying we have our opinions on what's right and wrong... and if that's the case, I don't see why you would infringe on someone else's (Hitler or Bin Laden for example) right to his/her opinion. You get the point?

Please can you answer directly? Do you believe that your god is the arbiter of an absolute morality system?

9inches:
How did you come to that conclusion?

because they defend the killing of babies in the bible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIrin7lWjGA