Stats: 3,189,475 members, 7,937,399 topics. Date: Monday, 02 September 2024 at 12:25 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / My Thoughts And Questions About Religion (237639 Views)
Questions About Religion For The Deep Thinker / Why Are Atheists Always Talking About Religion / Questions About Demon Possession - Nairaland Demonology Experts (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) ... (98) (99) (100) (101) (102) (103) (104) ... (130) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by RuthlessLeader(m): 8:52am On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches:Everyone's standard. That's why there is outrage when children are killed. Isn't that an opinion, or do you believe in moral absolutes?It is an opinion, that most people share. Now, do you think killing children is evil? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Funaki: 9:01am On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches:why are you always shifting goal post? we started with God does not instruct evil, then I showed you where he did. You said it's punishment, I explained that it isn't but it's genocide. We are now at genocide is not evil. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by joseph1013: 9:02am On Apr 26, 2019 |
"A different path was chosen by Menno Simons, a Dutch Anabaptist whose Mennonite movement survives to the present. Simons preached pacifism and noncompliance with a positively suicidal integrity. Mennonites quickly became renowned for their readiness to lay down their lives for their faith and their refusal to lift a finger to fight for it. It was this small community, not the more numerous and more timorous mainstream reformers, that provided the bulk of the martyrs of the Dutch persecution. The tale of Dirk Willemsz became iconic. Willemsz escaped from a Catholic prison in the spring of 1569 and fled across a frozen river. He crossed safely, but the ice gave way under the officer who was following him. Willemsz turned back and saved the man’s life by pulling him from the water. As a result, he was rearrested and, eventually, executed. In legal terms, this rigor made sense: he was still an unrepentant heretic. But such stories did not give the law a good name. The Dutch Republic was content to tolerate Mennonites. Their closed communities were antisocial but not openly subversive. They had scruples about matters like swearing oaths and bearing arms, which took a little goodwill to accommodate politically, but the goodwill was there, greased by the Mennonites’ willingness to pay hefty extra taxes to regularize their status. The Mennonites’ heroic virtues did not, however, extend to toleration. In the 1550s, they themselves divided bitterly, and by the end of the century there were at least six distinct, mutually reviling Mennonite groups in the Netherlands. The most divisive issue, with painful irony, was how far they ought to tolerate one another. One party, the Waterlanders, rejected the practice of formally excluding or “shunning” those who fell foul of the godly community’s discipline. For this they were duly shunned by the others. They persisted in preaching reunion, and in the 1630s several Mennonite groups drew on Waterlander principles to form a body, the United Congregations, that decided to tolerate differences over minor issues in the faith. Unfortunately, it was unclear what counted as a minor issue. The Waterlanders themselves, who disliked binding rules of any kind, were not actually permitted to join the United Congregations, but by this time the Waterlanders had divisions of their own. In the 1620s, an educated, dissident movement of freethinkers known as the Collegiants had emerged, rejecting all hierarchies and structures and permitting any participant in their informal meetings to speak. The Waterlanders expelled them. The Collegiants themselves, in turn, expelled those who questioned Christ’s divinity. The United Congregations then split over how to deal with the Collegiants. The faction who argued that Collegiants, anti-Trinitarians, and even the unbaptized should be admitted to the Eucharist were eventually expelled in 1664 and sought refuge among the Waterlanders. Naturally, the Waterlanders refused to admit such dangerous spiritual anarchists. This farce contains the paradoxes of Protestant tolerance and intolerance in microcosm. It shows Protestants’ endless appetite for squabbling and their widespread conviction that separated brethren remained brethren. It also shows that the most divisive issue of all was tolerance itself." ~ Alec Ryrie's "Protestants: The Faith That Made the Modern World" 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 9:45am On Apr 26, 2019 |
LordReed:Yes. Isn't that what my argument has always been about? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 9:48am On Apr 26, 2019 |
TVSA:Is killing of babies evil/wrong? By whose standard? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by LordReed(m): 9:50am On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: So when this arbiter of absolute morality goes against its own rules how does that show that an absolute moral system exists? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Gab25: 10:34am On Apr 26, 2019 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4FBQSa8lY just laugh...when your village people are actively on your matter.. ![]() |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by RuthlessLeader(m): 11:03am On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches:Stop being obtuse. Unless you are a sociopath, killing children for no good reason should be wrong to you. What does god say about the killing of children? scripture backed answer FROM YOU(and not some itk) is what I need. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by TVSA: 11:26am On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches:whose standard you say? so you don't know when you hurt people except there's a standard by someone? when you are not a dummy. whose standard proscribed slavery? 1 Like |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 1:53pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
RuthlessLeader:Just not true. Not everyone is outraged by the death of children. Hitler, Stalin, Hutus of Rwanda, Mao of China, a lot of psychopaths, etc, do not think killing people is morally wrong. If there is no God, then we don't have the moral right to infringe on anyone's beliefs, even if the person believes it's okay to kill babies to get ahead in life. It is an opinion, that most people share. Now, do you think killing children is evil?Most Americans used to share the opinion that non whites are not humans and so are inferior to the whites. Slavery used to be legal in America.Was it it morally justified just because most people shared that same idea? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 2:06pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
Funaki:Perhaps you're moving the goalpost, I'm not. You did not show me where God instructed evil, you showed me where you think he instructed evil. Difference! I said the genocide was punishment; I'm not sure you have made any argument to counter that. Even if you do make it, it'll still be your own opinion, not grounded in any superordinate principle, because in your worldview, you Funaki, make your own morality. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 2:18pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
LordReed:There's really nothing like arbiter of absolute morality, there is the source of absolute morality. The source of anything eternal cannot be in lack of that thing which it produces. Because we humans see or perceive only a tiny bit of the whole universe and reality, we are too arrogant to realize that the source of space and time is not bound by space or time, and therefore would know more than us what constitutes good or evil. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by LordReed(m): 2:26pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: Ok so special pleading for your god. It declares an absolute morality that it itself is not bound by is what you are saying right? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 2:33pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
RuthlessLeader:Right. But in your worldview, there's no objective morality. Therefore, if sociopaths form a majority, it would be morally right for them to ra.pe, torture and kill children because there's no superordinate principle, a moral law giver other than them. Each person brings his/her own view and boom!... a law is made for the society and binding on everyone including the minority! Have you read anything about Stalin and Lenin of the Soviet Union, Hitler of Nazi Germany, Mao of China, Mussolini of Italy..? Do you believe abortion is good or evil? Do you know Ireland recently voted by referendum to legalize abortion? It's only my worldview - a belief in God that supports the argument that something could be right or wrong. Without it, we all have opinions of what is right or wrong. What does God say about children? At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me." (Matthew 18:2-6) "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father." (Matthew 18:10) And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it." Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them. (Mark 10: 13-16) |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 5:01pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
TVSA:I know when I hurt people but I have to appeal to a standard to make a moral judgment on it. whose standard proscribed slavery?Biblical standard of course. Slavery goes against the American Declaration of Independence which states "....We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Every [good] law takes its root from this "self evident" truth - that every human being is created in the image and likeness of God and therefore has dignity and worth. If that is true, then we do not get our fundamental human rights from our fellow human beings or government, but from our Creator. Therefore, the role of government is to protect those rights in the most harmonious way possible. So, in essence, without God, there's no fundamental human rights. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Funaki: 5:13pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: are you alright? how is it that everything I said is my own opinion and everything you said are binding? are we throwing opinions at each other? For the love of God, explain how 1 Samuel 15:3 is a punishment. Tell me by the "superordinate principle" how killing innocent women and children served as a punishment for what their ancestors did in the past. Why did God have so much beef with the Amalekites that he couldn't let go after Joshua defeated the assailants in Exodus. And what's this "worldview" you keep throwing around? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by RuthlessLeader(m): 5:14pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches:And since you've seen both my posts, you would realise I said MOST people. There are exceptions, and in case you want to say something else, I am talking of the majority of people in TODAY'S world. If there is no God, then we don't have the moral right to infringe on anyone's beliefs, even if the person believes it's okay to kill babies to get ahead in life.That's true. But it also goes both ways, that person has no moral right to prevent me from imprisoning him/her for thinking killing babies to get ahead in life. Most Americans used to share the opinion that non whites are not humans and so are inferior to the whites. Slavery used to be legal in America.Was it it morally justified just because most people shared that same idea?It wasn't morally justified at all, BY TODAY'S STANDARDS. Why? Because we of today know better and are better than those of yesterday, so therefore slavery is something that we don't need and as such is evil. Also, those who knew better couldn't do anything because they were just too weak to oppose the established institution of slavery. 9inches:And now you think you've caught me. Therefore, if sociopaths form a majority, it would be morally right for them to ra.pe, torture and kill children because there's no superordinate principle, a moral law giver other than them. Each person brings his/her own view and boom!... a law is made for the society and binding on everyone including the minority!A society of sociopaths would be a disaster. It's not because they go about killing children, but because they are prone to failure. Also, most sociopaths aren't killiers, some are though. They don't hate children anymore than they hate black people. Have you read anything about Stalin and Lenin of the Soviet Union, Hitler of Nazi Germany, Mao of China, Mussolini of Italy..?Yes. Do you believe abortion is good or evil?It depends. Do you know Ireland recently voted by referendum to legalize abortion?Yes, I have family there. It's only my worldview - a belief in God that supports the argument that something could be right or wrong.Yet that same god does what is wrong. He himself disobeys his own laws. Without it, we all have opinions of what is right or wrong.That are the same for the most part because we humans like to think alike. What does God say about children?A lot of things. He also orders their slaughter which is what we're concerned about. [s]At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me." (Matthew 18:2-6)This just means god contradicts himself and he has done more harm to children than good. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by TVSA: 5:43pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: which biblical standard proscribed slavery? even the nice new testament didn't say people should stop slavery. Jesus and Paul with all their sweet words did not for once admonished their followers to abolish slavery. Which book of the bible is that part in red? or you're just inferring ![]() ![]() And you use fundamental human rights and God in the same sentence? that's disgusting ![]() ![]() 4 Likes 2 Shares
|
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:38pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
LordReed:What a question ![]() |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by LordReed(m): 7:01pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: It is very simple. As long as an exception exists to this so-called absolute morality framework then it is logically not absolute. Not only that, your god extends exceptions at will and seemly subject to various interpretations, that is we are to take it on the word of the various types of god believers that the exceptions are for them or deserved in some form. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 7:08pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
Funaki:You don't sound alright at all. How many times will I have to explain that unless you believe in absolute morality, your moral judgments are subjective and not binding on any separate free individual... It's essentially your opinion. And that if you agree it's an opinion, then every individual has the right to his/her opinion. If that's beyond your comprehension, then I don't know how else I could explain it to you. Refer back to my response on your previous Amalekites question. I gave you at least 2 verses. You could also read the verse preceding the one you quoted. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by LordReed(m): 7:09pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: Wow! This is incredible! You revel in worshipping a tyrant that completely ignores the pain and suffering of conscious living beings in favour of its so called plan and you applaud and call it moral, just and right. Wow, just wow. I am equally repulsed and amazed at your ability to hold such a position but be sure it is one I will never come back to. Thank you for crystallising my resolve. 1 Like |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Funaki: 8:40pm On Apr 26, 2019 |
9inches: You and your absolute morality bullsh!t. By the way, You seems to think only your God exist in the "God universe" and nobody can do right without your God standard. While your God is the example of evil personified. why is it that Jesus and Paul didn't follow your argument. Jesus and Paul seems to portray God as a good guy whow doesn't do evil. Jesus started his ministry by teaching his guys in Matthew 5 to be like their heavenly God who doesn't pay evil for evil, who doesn't take revenge, who blesses both good and bad people (I begin to wonder if Jesus read any of the books of Moses ![]() The new testament guys had more sense. They knew the God character in the old testament was a fvcktard. They knew no God would be that savage and insane. That's why they toned down on the God aggression in their own stories. God of the Old Testament was a bad idea, a psycho. The mad king in Game of thrones is learning from him. 1 Like
|
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:12am On Apr 27, 2019 |
RuthlessLeader:And I used Germany and America as examples of where majority could be wrong. Your argument falls flat. That's true. But it also goes both ways, that person has no moral right to prevent me from imprisoning him/her for thinking killing babies to get ahead in life.Exactly, we agree on that! That's my point - the world where anything goes. Each individual has the right to his or her opinions and actions regardless how "good' or "bad." Now you see the result of your worldview? It wasn't morally justified at all, BY TODAY'S STANDARDS. Why? Because we of today know better and are better than those of yesterday, so therefore slavery is something that we don't need and as such is evil.Not true.. Slavery is still around. Segregation is still around. You seem to not listen to the news. And it wasn't people of today that proscribed slavery. So, slavery has always been OBJECTIVELY WRONG even when it was legal and most people found it to be a good thing. It was evil then as much as it is evil now. And now you think you've caught me.Let the readers judge. ![]() A society of sociopaths would be a disaster. It's not because they go about killing children, but because they are prone to failure. Also, most sociopaths aren't killiers, some are though. They don't hate children anymore than they hate black people.That's right. At least you get the point now. It depends.On what? Yet that same god does what is wrong. He himself disobeys his own laws.In your own view. That are the same for the most part because we humans like to think alike.Not true. Reality doesn't bear that out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDDZIqPeHxc A lot of things. He also orders their slaughter which is what we're concerned about.You're concerned about the giver of life taking life. Hmmm... Your logic is alien to me. It's not evil/wrong for God to play God by removing any of his creatures from the world. Only him sees what we don't see. This just means god contradicts himself and he has done more harm to children than good.No evidence of any of that in the bible. You have a right to your opinion but not your facts. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:17am On Apr 27, 2019 |
TVSA:You have a right to your opinions but not your facts. Do you believe there is no God or that there is God but he is wicked? |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:24am On Apr 27, 2019 |
LordReed:Morality is absolute because it applies to every aspect of human existence. Again, a computer programmer is not bound by his programs (his laws applies to his creations), not him. He might have a rule he follows himself, but that's another thing. Our only concern is our relationship between us and our creator. He doesn't play by rules, unless he didn't create you. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:36am On Apr 27, 2019 |
LordReed:I totally understand why you see him as a tyrant. You aren't the first atheist to have such problems with understanding. For those of us that understand, it feels reassuring that someone like him is out there, else we have no hope, no judgment, no eternal life, no purpose in life and no meaning. We love that he is the most extreme definition of love, he is what you seek when you desire justice because he is justice itself and the same time, his mercy is boundless. All these good things we desire and seek - although we get as little of them as the world could offer - we get it full in God because he is goodness himself, the source of every one of these good things we desire and seek. So again, God is exactly what you seek whenever you seek anything good. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:43am On Apr 27, 2019 |
Funaki:You could rephrase your questions if you are serious for dialogue or serious argument. The reason I stick to the philosophy of God's existence is to exclude people like you who lack the wherewithal to tackle philosophical questions. I won't waste my time with you if you are not serious in your argument. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by RuthlessLeader(m): 9:26am On Apr 27, 2019 |
9inches:And I explained this. Exactly, we agree on that! That's my point - the world where anything goes. Each individual has the right to his or her opinions and actions regardless how "good' or "bad." Now you see the result of your worldview?Yes. The world where anything goes exists, it's today's world. But most people want a world where they and their families are safe so we can't just go around killing random people. Not true.. Slavery is still around. Segregation is still around.Yes. But it is practiced by those who are uneducated or not really advanced. You seem to not listen to the news.And you seem to think you are smart. And it wasn't people of today that proscribed slavery.I know this, that's why I said that people who proscribed slavery were incapable of doing anything about it for most of history. So, slavery has always been OBJECTIVELY WRONG even when it was legal and most people found it to be a good thing. It was evil then as much as it is evil now.So if it's always been evil, why does god allow it, and make laws about how to get slaves? On the woman and child. Rape, genetic diseases and defects, age of the mother etc determine whether the woman can abort or not. In your own view.No, it's in the bible. Read it. Not true. Reality doesn't bear that out.Reality does bear that out, that's why we have ideologies, values, etc. You're concerned about the giver of life taking life. Hmmm... Your logic is alien to me. It's not evil/wrong for God to play God by removing any of his creatures from the world. Only him sees what we don't see.This same god claims he is an all loving god, claims he won't let harm come to us and so on. Him killing people is a violation of those statements. No evidence of any of that in the bible. You have a right to your opinion but not your facts.The global flood that god cause killed children. The ten plagues of Egypt killed children. The destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and the Canaanite kingdoms killed children. These are but a few of the times where god has caused more harm to children than good. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by TVSA: 10:47am On Apr 27, 2019 |
9inches:It's like you pull this your crap 'its your opinion and not fact' when you don't know what to say again in an argument. I bet you'll tell me it's my opinion if I say cos0 = 1. Guy, it's not my opinion that your God didn't see anything bad with slavery, so your argument that God is the standard of morality is a lie. Your God's first law was for the people to have only one religion and god. How does that not violate the fundamental human right? o that's my opinion too. GOD discriminated against people of other tribes and see them as inferiors but its still my opinion, lol. Go and read your bible and stop throwing cliche at people. |
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by Funaki: 2:03pm On Apr 27, 2019 |
9inches: Your philosophy is wack. You could've avoided all these balderdash by saying The old prophets were either lying or they didn't know what they were saying. When you started asking if killing children was evil or not, it makes you sound like a criminally insane individual. If Jesus or Paul had heard you say that, I'm sure they'll have rebuked you and called you the devil. Jesus said be perfect as your heavenly father in heaven, Paul said imitate God as dear children. Could these guys be talking about the same God Moses or Samuel described? Jesus literally used little children as an example of people going to heaven. Matthew 18:10 KJV Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Does it make sense to you that the same God Jesus talked about was the same guy that ordered the killings of children in the old testament? Can't you see the conflict? If you are to follow the instructions of Jesus and Paul concerning imitating God, you should be going around killing people of other religion and stoning homosexual to death. It'll never make sense for you to defend the God of the old testament. When John and James wanted Jesus to call down fire on people as Elijah did in Luke 9, Jesus literally rebuked them and called the act evil. He didn't try to defend the act of Elijah with any bullsh!t philosophy. I repeat, your best bet is to say the prophets were lying, forget your philosophy. 2 Likes
|
Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 8:25pm On Apr 28, 2019 |
RuthlessLeader:That's right. But the core of the whole morality question is why should a sociopath not have his own oponions and reserve the right to act out on them IF morality is subjective? Yes. But it is practiced by those who are uneducated or not really advanced.What sort of education or advancement do you mean? How educated and/or advanced were the people who proscribed slavery and how how uneducated and/or unadvanced were those who had slaves? I know this, that's why I said that people who proscribed slavery were incapable of doing anything about it for most of history.The people who proscribed slavery did not exist for most of history. So if it's always been evil, why does god allow it, and make laws about how to get slaves?Because God allows us to exercise our freewill. By the way, the slavery in the bible is not chattel slavery. On the woman and child. Rape, genetic diseases and defects, age of the mother etc determine whether the woman can abort or not.These are your justification for killing another human? Wow No, it's in the bible. Read it.I've read the bible multiple times; not there. Reality does bear that out, that's why we have ideologies, values, etc.Not true. Our ideologies differ, our values differ also. This same god claims he is an all loving god, claims he won't let harm come to us and so on. Him killing people is a violation of those statements.Not only that God loves, he is love itself. I don't know about you but I want a God who is love and just to be able to use his wisdom to judge, kill or save. Isn't it funny you hate that God plays God and take life in his infinite wisdom but you want human beings to be able to take life in the womb? What you are doing is using your own subjective standard to make objective moral argument. The global flood that god cause killed children.God taking people out of this world is not harm. IF there really is life after death, then physical death is merely a change of location. IF heaven really exists, then taking people off the universe he created to heaven would rather be a glorious thing, not harm. |
(1) (2) (3) ... (98) (99) (100) (101) (102) (103) (104) ... (130) (Reply)
Scandal: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome In South African Trouble! / Jesus is coming soon. This thread is for faithful watchmen / Rhapsody Of Realities: A Daily Devotional
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 146 |