The most important creed in the Christian faith is that Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day. It is impossible to be a Christian if an iota of the above is denied. Its like saying can one be a muslim and yet deny either the oneness of Allah or that Mohammed is the prophet of allah.

Salvation itself is impossible without the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus: for Jesus is the sacrifice and the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

If the Qur'an contradicts the Bible on this important issue, it is either
1. The Source of the Bible and the Qur'an is completely different (Allah is different from Jehovah)
2. One of the two books is presenting a deliberate Falsehood and Misinformation that leads people to Hell fire.

Qur’an, 4:157-158
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

Muslims would rather dodge discussions on the claim of the Qur'an that
1. Jesus wasnt killed
2. Jesus wasnt Crucified
3. Jesus was taken bodily to God in heaven


This is because every excuse they have thought of raises extremely difficult issues which they would rather sweep under the carpet.

Muslims can be divided into two broad groups according to their understanding of this problem
1. The Ahmadias:
The Ahmadias are the Muslims equivalent of the Christians Jehovahs witness.
In clear contradiction of what the Qur'an states, the Ahmadias tried to solve the by enacting the swoon theory. In the swoon theory, Jesus was actually CRUCIFIED but he didnt die: he fainted on the cross. In addition they try to redefine the words crucifixion to mean death rather than a means of causing death.

Then a conspiracy theory was built on the fact that Pilate conspired with the soldiers not to kill Jesus but give an appearance of an execution. That Jesus was put in a cool tomb where he was nursed to health and traveled to india to raise a family. In fact, the Ahmadias have a grave for Jesus invented to prove this.
2. The Traditional Muslims:
This includes almost all other Muslim sects. They all agree with the Qur'an that Jesus wasnt Crucified at all BUT their "replacement/substitution theory" for resolving the controversy and it comes in two flavours
a. Contemporary Muslims:
These ones has seen the logical fallacies in every form of arguments that has been presented by Muslims so that their stance is simply: "Allah knows the best".

With this phrase, they bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich pretending that the problems can go away when the phrase is repeated well often and again an again.
b. Old school Muslims:
These ones goes with the numerous hadiths and tefsirs and thus come to various contradictions even against the supposed nature of Allah.

Some of their conclusions include:
1. Jesus was substituted with Judas
2. One of Jesus's disciples voluntarily submitted himself to die on the cross for Him
3. Someone on the street was confused for Jesus and Crucified in His stead.
4. Allah manufactured someone who was Crucified in the place of Christ.

In all the cases above, Jesus was smuggled bodily to heaven. He will come back to the earth at the end time to kill a one eyed monster call Al Daajjal and he will convert all Christians to muslims (break the crosses) after killing all the Jews(kill the pigs).


Muslims Dodge answering simple obvious question from their theories because it exposes the lack of common logical sense in the position of the Qur'an.

For instance can Muslims explain how Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

They will surely dodge this among others questions like plague!



Rashduct4luv
Empiree

Dodged Thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/5142675/jesus-didnt-die-he-wasnt


https://www.nairaland.com/5142675/jesus-didnt-die-he-wasnt

shadeyinka:
The most important creed in the Christian faith is that Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day. It is impossible to be a Christian if an iota of the above is denied. Its like saying can one be a muslim and yet deny either the oneness of Allah or that Mohammed is the prophet of allah.

misplaced priority

You need to first figure out which is the most fundamental creed of CHRISTIANITY before you even talk about Islam.

You contradicted Jesus Christ. According to Jesus, first Commandment is You Worship Your God Alone which is in tandem with Islam. You failed woefully

Empiree:
misplaced priority

You need to first figure out which is the most fundamental creed of CHRISTIANITY before you even talk about Islam.

You contradicted Jesus Christ. According to Jesus, first Commandment is You Worship Your God Alone which is in tandem with Islam. You failed woefully

Can someone become a Muslim by worshiping Allah and yet denying the shahada?

That isn't what makes you a Christian my dear. That is the greatest commandment!

It's not even about worship: it is about LOVE for God and LOVE for Man
Mat 22:36-40:
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Thereupon Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets."

But like expected I understand that you'll dodge the question

Secondly, you are the one to talk about islam: that is the essence of the questions.

What is so difficult in explaining:
How Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

shadeyinka:


Can someone become a Muslim by worshiping Allah and yet denying the shahada?

That isn't what makes you a Christian my dear. That is the greatest commandment!

It's not even about worship: it is about LOVE for God and LOVE for Man
Mat 22:36-40:
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Thereupon Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets."

But like expected I understand that you'll dodge the question

Secondly, you are the one to talk about islam: that is the essence of the questions.

What is so difficult in explaining:
How Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

still contradict yourself.


You said



"The most important creed in the Christian faith is that Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day. It is impossible to be a Christian if an iota of the above is denied."


Make up your mind.

Empiree:
still contradict yourself.


You said



"The most important creed in the Christian faith is that Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day. It is impossible to be a Christian if an iota of the above is denied."


Make up your mind.

Can anyone deny this and still be called a Christian?
Just like can anyone deny the shahada and call himself a Muslim?

Can you now please explain
How Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

shadeyinka:

Can anyone deny this and still be called a Christian?
Just like can anyone deny the shahada and call himself a Muslim?

Don't shift yet goalpost yet. You have unfinished business.

So far you have at least 3 different most important creeds. Of these three, which one is the most important?

You can't solve this, yet you want muslims to answer you about death of Jesus?

Empiree:
Don't shift yet goalpost yet. You have unfinished business.

So far you have at least 3 different most important creeds. Of these three, which one is the most important?

You can't solve this, yet you want muslims to answer you about death of Jesus?

Since you seem not to know the meaning of creed.

creed
/kriːd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a system of religious belief; a faith.
"people of many creeds and cultures"
synonyms: faith, religion, religious belief(s), religious persuasion, religious conviction, religious group, faith community, church; More
a formal statement of Christian beliefs, especially the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed.
noun: Creed; noun: the Creed
"the godparents will then swear that they believe in the Creed and the Commandments"
synonyms: system of belief, set of principles, statement of beliefs, profession of faith; More
a set of beliefs or aims which guide someone's actions.
"liberalism was more than a political creed"

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=KDDHXPjKDM70kwX6tKaoAg&q=creed+definition&oq=creed++def&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.0.0i70i249j0l4j46j0l2.9856.33986..43635...2.0..0.491.2790.2-5j3j1......0....1.......8..35i39j0i131j46i131j46i275.rTk0mAJjnF8

And I didn't attempt to give you a systematic load down of all the Christian faith creed.

And for your information, a Creed is different from a commandment!

Do you want a definition and a link to clarify this too?


Therefore, stop being an escapist and answer the question. The question is just one of several impossible questions for you to answer.

Can you now please explain
How Jesus was taken to heaven: Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

shadeyinka:

Since you seem not to know the meaning of creed.

And I didn't attempt to give you a systematic load down of all the Christian faith creed.

And for your information, a Creed is different from a commandment!

Do you want a definition and a link to clarify this too?


Therefore, stop being an escapist and answer the question. The question is just one of several impossible questions for you to answer.

Can you now please explain
How Jesus was taken to heaven: Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

why must I answer your question?.

Back to first point. Fine, there are many things beneath CREED. So which is the most important?. Loving the Lord or Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day?.

Empiree:
why must I answer your question?.

Back to first point. Fine, there are many things beneath CREED. So which is the most important?. Loving the Lord or Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day?.

Mat 22:35-40:
"And one of them, an expounder of the law, with a view to try him, asked him this question, Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Thereupon Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets."

I see you are still mixing up what a creed is and what a commandment is.

commandment
/kəˈmɑːndmənt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a divine rule, especially one of the Ten Commandments.
"the Sabbath had to be kept as ordered in the Fourth Commandment"

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=EkLHXNy8KcKYsAe5-aTwDA&q=commandment+definition&oq=commandmentbdefinition&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.0.0i13i70i249j0i13l2j0i13i30l5.2688.11960..14784...1.0..0.925.7291.2-17j2j0j1j2......0....1.......8..35i39j46i67j0i67j0i131j46i131j0j46i67i275j46j0i8i13i30j0i8i13i10i30.J5-gKlEuvs8

Love your God and Love Man is a COMMAND! And it is the greatest commandment.

Jesus, Crucified, Died, Rose from the dead on the third day is a CREED!

After distinguishing between the two (Commandment and Creed):

Both are extremely important. You cannot take one and leave the other. The evidence that you belong to Christ is when you obey His command. What makes you Christ's is your Faith: summarised in the Christians creed.

Now that I have answered your questions, answer my own.

Incase you are still having problem with this, let me use something familiar to you:
1. To become a Muslim, you must confess and believe in the Oneness of Allah and that Mohammed is his Prophet (the shahada)
2. A True Muslim is known by faithfulness to the decrees/commands of Allah.
You cannot take one and leave the other

shadeyinka:


I see you are still mixing up what a creed is and what a commandment is.









Love your God and Love Man is a COMMAND! And it is the greatest commandment.

Jesus, Crucified, Died, Rose from the dead on the third day is a CREED!

After distinguishing between the two (Commandment and Creed):

Both are extremely important. You cannot take one and leave the other. The evidence that you belong to Christ is when you obey His command. What makes you Christ's is your Faith: summarised in the Christians creed.

Now that I have answered your questions, answer my own.

BOY, bye

Empiree:
BOY, bye

I believe you can see that as predicted, Muslims run away and avoid facing the truth about the Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Assension of Christ.


I am yet to see one Muslim willing to answer the simple questions.

Empiree, I told you that I almost recited the shahada in my 200 Levels. This was one of the cardinal questions that turned me back. If seasoned Muslims like you cannot answer the question: woe betides the aspiring Muslims.

shadeyinka:

I believe you can see that as predicted, Muslims run away and avoid facing the truth about the Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Assension of Christ.


I am yet to see one Muslim willing to answer the simple questions.

Em.piree, I told you that I almost recited the shahada in my 200 Levels. This was one of the cardinal questions that turned me back. If seasoned Muslims like you cannot answer the question: woe betides the aspiring Muslims.

what stopped you and how's 'death of Jesus', ascension of Jesus and 'ressurection' of Jesus central aqeeda (Creed)?. Quran told us he was not killed nor crucified. Anything else you want?

Empiree:
what stopped you and how's 'death of Jesus', ascension of Jesus and 'ressurection' of Jesus central aqeeda (Creed)?. Quran told us he was not killed nor crucified. Anything else you want?

I understand that the Qur'an said so AND it directly contradicts what the Bible says. Hence for someone whose first knowledge is the Bible, shouldn't he ask relevant questions from Muslims?

One of the simplest question is
Can you explain
How Jesus was taken to heaven: Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?


Christians have details of how Christ was taken to heaven: it shouldn't be difficult finding out what the Islamic version says.

shadeyinka:

I understand that the Qur'an said so AND it directly contradicts what the Bible says. Hence for someone whose first knowledge is the Bible, shouldn't he ask relevant questions from Muslims?

One of the simplest question is
Can you explain
How Jesus was taken to heaven: Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?


Christians have details of how Christ was taken to heaven: it shouldn't be difficult finding out what the Islamic version says.

some you claimed to know what you believe, why are you concerned about Islam?. How about you sick to your belief?.

God raised him to Himself (both body and soul). That's all that is relevant. How, where, when are irrelevant. Quran provides prove that he was not killed nor crucified. Full stop.


Interesting Quran goes further to say those people who were present were doubtful and full of conjectures. That they don't really know what happened. Which means whatever story you want to come up with will breed more questions for you.

Empiree:
some you claimed to know what you believe, why are you concerned about Islam?. How about you sick to your belief?.

God raised him to Himself (both body and soul). That's all that is relevant. How, where, when are irrelevant. Quran provides prove that he was not killed nor crucified. Full stop.


Interesting Quran goes further to say those people who were present were doubtful and full of conjectures. That they don't really know what happened. Which means whatever story you want to come up with will breed more questions for you.

I think you are still not comprehending the magnitude of the problem

If Allah took Jesus bodily to heaven, there are just two alternatives
1. It was in the presence of a few of Jesus disciples
OR
2. Jesus was taken up without the knowledge of any of His disciples

So, which one is it?

Ok

Empiree:
some you claimed to know what you believe, why are you concerned about Islam?. How about you sick to your belief?.

God raised him to Himself (both body and soul). That's all that is relevant. How, where, when are irrelevant. Quran provides prove that he was not killed nor crucified. Full stop.


Interesting Quran goes further to say those people who were present were doubtful and full of conjectures. That they don't really know what happened. Which means whatever story you want to come up with will breed more questions for you.

I think you are still not comprehending the magnitude of the problem

If Allah took Jesus bodily to heaven, there are just two alternatives
1. It was in the presence of a few of Jesus disciples
OR
2. Jesus was taken up without the knowledge of any of His disciples

So, which one is it?

shadeyinka:


I think you are still not comprehending the magnitude of the problem

If Allah took Jesus bodily to heaven, there are just two alternatives
1. It was in the presence of a few of Jesus disciples
OR
2. Jesus was taken up without the knowledge of any of His disciples

So, which one is it?

the clear verse is confusing you again?.

Empiree:
the clear verse is confusing you again?.

Which of the two versions happened?

shadeyinka:

Which of the two versions happened?

a very good question bro. but nairaland Muslims will avoid this like a plague

malvisguy212:
a very good question bro. but nairaland Muslims will avoid this like a plague

Only their JW brand of Islam (Ahmadia) will dare engage you on this. However, they would want to redefine crucifixion as death rather than a means of execution. After this , they would propound a complex conspiracy theory of how Jesus went to India after waking up from his swoon and married and died. They have even manufactured a grave for him.

The rest know that there is a big problem which cannot be justified by logics or reason.

shadeyinka:

Which of the two versions happened?

what versions?

That they said (in boast),

"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,


but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts,


with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-Q4:157-158


So what version you want?

Empiree:
what versions?

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .

" And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.

And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it.


They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Q4:157-158


So what version you want?

I am not disputing what the Qur'an says:
Allah raised him up to himself! YES!
BUT the question is:

Was it in secret or in public?

Even for Moslems it is a tough nut.

Despite the Koran’s claim that Jesus was not crucified or killed there is no confirmation within the Koran itself that someone else died in the place of Christ. All the Koran says is that it was made to appear as if Christ had been crucified. How this was done remains unanswered.

To complicate matters further, there are other passages in the Koran which seem to indicate that Jesus did die. Some Moslems say that references to Jesus’ death is future. But there is not even one single passage throughout the Koran showing that Jesus will return to die.

There were many witnesses to Jesus’ death and resurrection yet the Koran which came 600 years after claims that Allah DECEIVED people into believing that Jesus was crucified when he was not. What kind of god will DECEIVE people into believing an event took place when it did not and then turn around to blame them for believing what he, as a god, set up.

The Koran which affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as coming from God and then goes on to deny the central point of Christianity shows itself up for what it is.

^^

Who told you someone else died in his place?. Where is that written in the Qur'an?

Substitution was opinion of some scholars. I don't believe in theory of substitution

Empiree:
^^

Who told you someone else died in his place?. Where is that written in the Qur'an?

Substitution was opinion of some scholars. I don't believe in theory of substitution

So, which theory do you believe?

sagenaija:
Even for Moslems it is a tough nut.

Despite the Koran’s claim that Jesus was not crucified or killed there is no confirmation within the Koran itself that someone else died in the place of Christ. All the Koran says is that it was made to appear as if Christ had been crucified. How this was done remains unanswered.

To complicate matters further, there are other passages in the Koran which seem to indicate that Jesus did die. Some Moslems say that references to Jesus’ death is future. But there is not even one single passage throughout the Koran showing that Jesus will return to die.

There were many witnesses to Jesus’ death and resurrection yet the Koran which came 600 years after claims that Allah DECEIVED people into believing that Jesus was crucified when he was not. What kind of god will DECEIVE people into believing an event took place when it did not and then turn around to blame them for believing what he, as a god, set up.

The Koran which affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as coming from God and then goes on to deny the central point of Christianity shows itself up for what it is.

You can see their dilemma!
If the say Jesus did not die but it was someone else: then the question is who is that someone else?
Then, why would Allah punish an innocent soul to make Jews believe that Jesus died.

If Jesus is still in heaven, doesn't it make him the greatest prophet and not Mohammed?

If Jesus was taken to Heaven, was it in the presence of his disciples or not. If it was in the presence of his disciples, why would they cook up a lie that Jesus died a shameful and painful death on the cross?

So you see why they would rather begin to repeat the same thing over and over or even totally disappear from the radar like Empiree.

sagenaija:

So, which theory do you believe?

You think he will answer you?
Even Allah forgot the person who was substituted for Jesus. Teddies and Hadiths try their best .. unfortunately the Qur'an: the final word of Allah doesn't have an answer!

sagenaija:
Even for Moslems it is a tough nut.

Despite the Koran’s claim that Jesus was not crucified or killed there is no confirmation within the Koran itself that someone else died in the place of Christ. All the Koran says is that it was made to appear as if Christ had been crucified. How this was done remains unanswered.

okay, now I seen your confusion. You believe God is powerful and can do anything, right?. If God is powerful, is He not powerful enough to cloud Jesus' killers and raise him up?. He created the universe. He created the sky without anything holding it up. Why is He not capable of raising Jesus to Himself however He wanted?. Unless you want to tell me now that God is not that powerful. How God lifted Jesus or what really happened was never a big matter of concern to us.

To complicate matters further, there are other passages in the Koran which seem to indicate that Jesus did die. Some Moslems say that references to Jesus’ death is future. But there is not even one single passage throughout the Koran showing that Jesus will return to die.

Yes, Jesus' death is in the future. When Jesus was born according to Quran, he spoke in his cradle: ".... Peace be upon me the day I was born and the day I die"

Clearly, if someone is nailed on the cross, what do you call that?. Is that peaceful death?. That's violent death. To make the matter worse, CHRISTIANs continue to carry the cross to indicate how their God was violently killed.

According to CHRISTIANITY, Jesus was killed by Jews. My question to you is, if Jesus was killed, is killing not violent?. They nailed his hands and legs on the cross. They put on his head crown of thorns indicating his violent ending. This is contrary to Jesus statement that he would die peacefully. Therefore, he must return and later die in peace after he breaks the cross (symbolising end of CHRISTIANITY) and kill the pigs.

So we have ayah in sura 43:61 indicating his return


And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

Also Quran tells us in one Ayah comparing sleep and death. It says when Allah takes soul while we asleep, those who wake up the following day is because Allah returns their soul until appointed time. Those who did not wake up and die in their sleep is because God took their soul. This is exactly how to discribe incident of Jesus because the same word is used "maut"

There were many witnesses to Jesus’ death and resurrection yet the Koran which came 600 years after claims that Allah DECEIVED people into believing that Jesus was crucified when he was not. What kind of god will DECEIVE people into believing an event took place when it did not and then turn around to blame them for believing what he, as a god, set up.

Quran already debunked this in the previous verse I quoted.

It says those who were present there were full of doubts and conjectures. This makes your claim irrelevant. Plus this narration of yours about witnesses can not be verified due to credibility of Bible and eyewitnesses. Quran speaks

"And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it." Sura 4:157

To further confirm doubts of the eyewitnesses you relied on, we seen their confusion in the narrations how Jesus was hanged on the cross. If they were not in doubt they should all give us one account how Jesus was hanged (see attachment)

Mark and Luke's accounts of crucifixion are different.

The Koran which affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as coming from God and then goes on to deny the central point of Christianity shows itself up for what it is.

sorry to disappoint you. Quran isn't talking about Bible according to John, Mathew, Mark and Luke. It is only talking about scripture given to Jesus. Chronological Gospels are according to their writers not Jesus. This refutes you in a very simple way.

shadeyinka:



If Jesus was taken to Heaven, was it in the presence of his disciples or not. If it was in the presence of his disciples, why would they cook up a lie that Jesus died a shameful and painful death on the cross?

you think I was interested in answering him?. I was not in mood with him one bit but later changed my mind. So now you can help him since you believe there were eyewitnesses?.

Why Mark and Luke accounts contradicted each other?. Which one should we believe?

Empiree:
you think I was interested in answering him?. I was not in mood with him one bit but later changed my mind. So now you can help him since you believe there were eyewitnesses?.

Why Mark and Luke accounts contradicted each other?. Which one should we believe?

Luke and Mark are two separate individuals who recorded what they knew about the event.

The almighty Allah who was correcting the Errors of Luke and Mark supplied even far less information than the gospels.

All the gospels are unanimous about the Crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. Muslims have to do better because
1. If you are not trying to rewrite history, then your narration must precisely clarify issues.
2. Even history is not on your side.

You can see that the question I have asked is not even on the Crucifixion or death of Christ. I have asked only about Allah taking Jesus up to heaven: was it secretly or in the presence of some disciples. This is not a difficult question to answer!

It was Judas Iscariot that died on the cross

shadeyinka:

Luke and Mark are two separate individuals who recorded what they knew about the event.

The almighty Allah who was correcting the Errors of Luke and Mark supplied even far less information than the gospels.

All the gospels are unanimous about the Crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. Muslims have to do better because
1. If you are not trying to rewrite history, then your narration must precisely clarify issues.
2. Even history is not on your side.

You can see that the question I have asked is not even on the Crucifixion or death of Christ. I have asked only about Allah taking Jesus up to heaven: was it secretly or in the presence of some disciples. This is not a difficult question to answer!

you need to try harder. Whatever happened was not the focus of Quran. What quran needed was that Jesus was not kill or crucified. This is sufficient for us. My question which both of you evaded was, who killed Jesus and who led them to his capture?.

We muslims are not interested in super story that took place. God tells us he was not killed he was not crucified. We don't need witnesses stories. As I said before, Quran goes further to say witnesses were in doubt and they have no knowledge of what actually happened.

Again, this is sufficient for us. We believe in what had been revealed to us. If witnesses were sure they would not give you two different accounts of his crucifixion.

Once again, Jesus said he would die in peace but his "death" according to CHRISTIANITY was very violent one. "Being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground” (Luke 22:44, emphasis added). Subsequently He is arrested, beaten, and executed in grotesque and humiliating fashion. The Roman system of crucifixion had been finely tuned to produce the maximum of pain. In fact, the word excruciating (literally, “out of the cross”) had to be invented to fully codify its horror.

If Mark and Luke accounts were recorded separately, didn't they get their information from the same source (s) {eyewitnesses}?. This means eyewitnesses accounts were false as Quran rightly said. Too much holes in your Bible.