Maximus69:

The people worshiped EXACTLY what other surrounding nations worshiped! Jeremiah 7:31
But Jehovah's Witnesses today only worship according to the instructions from the GB,which has nothing like what is obtainable elsewhere Sir. That is why all other religious groups are against Jehovah's Witnesses!
Idolatry has just one form Sir 'form of worship that is common everywhere,people from all parts of the earth can easily relate with it because something of that nature must have been in their own culture' John 15:19 but when it is not common then there is some kind of uniqueness!

rottennaija:


How about inputing that our salvation depend on organization? Isn't that idolatry as well?

Jozzy4:


He hasn't returned to heaven at the time to dwell in unapproachable Light. Don't forget he quote where Paul said like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly . heavenly NOT earthly .

What you saw there is a materialized body , Just as Angels in the past . No wonder Mary didn't recognize him facially at first. Except by his voice

Maximus69:
NO!
You're mixing things up there, it's like saying 'salvation in Noah's day depends on Jehovah' Of course whoever ignores entering Noah's ark has shown lack of faith in Jehovah!
So likewise Jehovah is our salvation yet we MUST identify his provision of undeserved kindness rather than demanding he comes directly to tell us what we need to do.
That is where MEEKNESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS comes in! Zephaniah 2:2-3!

rottennaija:


How about imputing that our salvation depends on our nationality? Isn't that idolatry?

CAPTIVATOR:


am responding to this first because it is a dead attempt to change the truth. Are you aware that many of these translation that says " ON " actually translated the same word as " OVER " at Matthew 18:13 ? Like jozy pointed out. You never gave attentiom to this . Giving credence to a translation that uses over the earth . So let's see what the facts reveal .



The Kingdom is a Kingdom of Heaven. That's the location of government. You would have understand if you took time to reflect on Jesus been called " heavenly one" together with those with the heavenly calling .

" Like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly "



He was a materialized flesh Not Spirit at that moment he met Mary. Mary can't see him in spirit form so he materialized. The way he appears and disappears at will like angels in the past proved this.

He later said he wasn't a spirit because a spirit won't have flesh and bones as he had at that moment. That's just to make him visible to his apostles. All that lasted till he return to the spirit realm , years later apostle Paul regarded him as the heavenly one.


Spirit is not flesh. Whatever has been born from spirit is Spirit " John 3:6 . which gives this rulers together with Christ the heavenly hope as Spirits.

Maximus69:
Your nationality could be of two different meanings!
¤ It could mean your own race amongst whom you were born, bread and brought up. Surely Jesus said our salvation doesn't depend on such nationality anymore, that was the old covenant between Jehovah and the nation of Israel but after the establishment of Christianity that covenant was cancelled! John 4:20-24
¤ It could also mean your spiritual family from different countries, tribes, tongues all worshiping together as a nation. Jesus emphasised that this is the family that he could call his own family so that means salvation depends on that spiritual global family or nation! Matthew 12:46-50 Jesus emphatically said nobody could operate in isolation without being part of that spiritual family! John 15:1-9 Notice that there MUST be a form of UNIONISM to remain with Jesus in spirit, so it's left to each person to IDENTIFY that group or organization that is bearing the so called FRUIT! John 15:8

Maximus69:

The people worshiped EXACTLY what other surrounding nations worshiped! Jeremiah 7:31
But Jehovah's Witnesses today only worship according to the instructions from the GB,which has nothing like what is obtainable elsewhere Sir. That is why all other religious groups are against Jehovah's Witnesses!
Idolatry has just one form Sir 'form of worship that is common everywhere,people from all parts of the earth can easily relate with it because something of that nature must have been in their own culture' John 15:19 but when it is not common then there is some kind of uniqueness!

rottennaija:


We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry​—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization. (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21)
w90 11/1 pp. 23-28 - The Watchtower—1990

rottennaija:


Can you see another form of Idolatry Maximus69?

rottennaija:



I think I need to correct somethings you don't know. You are not corresponding with someone who is naive and unfocused. Rather, you are corresponding with someone who is experienced and understand watchtower methods of indoctrination, manipulations, taking scriptures out of context, fallacious reasoning, intimidation and mind control. You are taking scriptures out of context to do anything and apply anything you feel like doing and get away with it.

Now, with regards to what you have posted, let me bring out your manipulations.

1.
Mt 12:46-50 - Jesus is talking about those who are his family. Those doing the will of his father are his family, in the context of which he is speaking, he is not referring to them as a spiritual family but a physical one. Secondly and most importantly, nowhere in the above scriptures is Jesus saying that salvation is tied to belonging that family. If I'm wrong, just show me where he said so.

My survival today does not depend on my fleshly family. So you are forcing meaning into scriptures and taking it out of context.

2.
John 15:1-9 - the irony of trying to use John 15 verse 1 to 9 to support your claims is that the very person whom we can get to God, you have completely left out in the discussion. The person is Jesus.

There Jesus said "remain in union with me", not there MUST be a form of Unionism to remain with Jesus in spirit. can you take a little step backward and see what has happened to your mind because you are so determined to fit whatever you see in the Bible with the concept of belonging to your particular religious organization?

Again, you see how it's easy to miss the mark of a true Christian completely. Jesus said in verse 4,5,7 repeatedly with emphasis "remain in union with me". But somehow, your mind has switched to there MUST be a form of Unionism to remain with Jesus in spirit. because you don't see nor believe how possible to remain in union with Jesus, without organization. But again, Jesus didn't mention organization or anything else that comes between that union.

As you quote those scriptures, because you are so fixated on the concept of organization, passing through a system or people or mediator to get to Jesus. In the process of doing so, you miss completely the message of John 15:1-9.

That scriptures highlights the personal level of an individual Christian's relationship to Jesus. In verse 5 he said, he is the vine and his disciples are the branches. He didn't say, He is the vine, the branches are the organization and the other sheep are the lives. No, but he said directly, he is the vine and his disciples are the branches.

This point is also made strong and important when he mentioned that anyone not producing fine fruits are cuts off in verse 2. Certainly, a true Christian must produce fine fruit, else is cut off. That's the task of a true Christian.

3. Speaking of worshiping in isolation, I believe it's important to address this point as you have mentioned them several.

While having fellowship with same minded people can be beneficial, even encouraging, no where in the scriptures is it mentioned as an absolute necessity for everlasting life or absolute necessity for salvation.

The Bible mentions meeting together to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of brethren in Hebrews 10:25.

Proceeding verse of Hebrews 10:25 is verse 24. There, the apostle admonishes "Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and good deeds."

Speaking of worshiping in isolation, I hope you realize that anything not done in faith is a sin. (see Ro 14:23) what benefits is it to me that I attend the meetings of Jehovah’s Witnesses when I don't believe in what you are doing? When the very practices, believes etc are repugnant to me? Certainly, it would be a sin performing activities I don't believe in.

Worshiping God in isolation is not new. Throughout the Bible, we have examples of people who didn't belong to groups to worship and their worship was quite acceptable to God. Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ethiopian Eunuch, Cornelius, the Jailers. In the example of the Christian era, we have people like Ethiopian Eunuch, Cornelius, the Jailers. All these men were converted to believe in Christ Jesus, were baptised. But nowhere do you see the apostle ask them to come join their group or they will lose their salvation.

Take a serious reading of those scriptures again and you will see it yourself. After Philip baptised the Ethiopian Eunuch, the scriptures says in Acts 8:39 "When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away. The eunuch never saw him again but went on his way rejoicing."

Certainly if it were a jw or Maximus69, he would have told him that his salvation would be lost if does not look for the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and belong to he group they lead and that he needs to preach and report 10 hours every months to be considered a serious Christian. But those things are lacking in the scriptures because they are created by the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses to keep their members busy and bring them much needed funds.

But did that mean the Eunuch never practice his Christian faith or did he not preach to others? I believe he must have and eventually have people to fellowship with, but here must have been a time he was alone after he returned home.

The same is true of Cornelius and the Jailer after their baptism. Nowhere do you find the apostles (supposed governing body) telling people they must belong to the group their lead to guarantee their salvation. Those are concept of today's creation by men who are looking for people to Lord over. By so doing, they divert attention from the very same person they are to direct all attention to.

We also find something similar in the account of Luke 9:49 and 50. John said to Jesus, "Master, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons. We tried to stop him because he isn't in our group." But Jesus said, " Don't stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you. "

What is most important is the faith. As I had said before, association is up building and encouraging. But where you come out of a high control religious organization like Jws, that believes they are the only true religion and everything else aside from them is falsehood, you need to take a break, make careful diligent search. Certainly, I don't want to jump from fry pan to fire, for there are so many groups like Jws with their own ways of control and interceding themselves unnecessarily between Jesus and his followers.

While Jesus was here on earth, he didn't command those people to be working in his group. As long as they were not against him, they were for him. Faith in God's son is the binding block among his followers, not faith in religious organizations, lose that important facts, you lose what it means to serve God.

Quoting Prof. Daniel Taylor, he observed in his book The Myth of Certainty:

"The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is self-preservation. Preserving the faith is central to God’s plan for human history; preserving particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his purpose. He will make use of those, in all their diversity, who are ready to be used, but will leave to themselves those who labor for their own ends.

Nonetheless, questioning the institutions is synonymous, for many, with attacking God—something not long to be tolerated. Supposedly they are protecting God . . . Actually, they are protecting themselves, their view of the world, and their sense of security. The religious institution has given them meaning, a sense of purpose, and, in some cases, careers. Anyone perceived as a threat to these things is a threat indeed.

This threat is often met, or suppressed even before it arises, with power. . . . Institutions express their power most clearly by enunciating, interpreting and enforcing the rules of the subculture. "

The above observation by Prof. Daniel Taylor is exactly what the catholic church has been condemn for doing by the watchtower organization. And it is the same trap watchtower has fallen into. Well, when I consider history and see how people change, then I understand well the meaning of "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." if you doubt that expression, read the book Animal Farm by Orwell.

Maximus69:
Stop quoting obsolete publications! i've told you not to quote whatever is older than 2years for me!
Why are you so full of old infos that's no more current?
We're talking about IDOLATRY and you're quoting the definition given 29 years ago!
Of course you shouldn't expect me to abide by that old definition of idolatry when so many forms of idolatry have emerged within just the last decade!

Maximus69:
It's not compulsory you agree with my analogy Sir, after all your God totally differs from mine!
My presentation is just to show my line of thought in harmony with over 8,000,000 JWs globally, so since you believe we're practicing idolatry it's clear that there is a sharp contrast between your God and our God!
We're doing well as we keep going to people in our neighbourhood to present our God and his purposes to whoever will appreciate him, you too can as well go out there to do the same. It's a FREE world!

Maximus69:
It's not compulsory you agree with my analogy Sir, after all your God totally differs from mine!
My presentation is just to show my line of thought in harmony with over 8,000,000 JWs globally, so since you believe we're practicing idolatry it's clear that there is a sharp contrast between your God and our God!
We're doing well as we keep going to people in our neighbourhood to present our God and his purposes to whoever will appreciate him, you too can as well go out there to do the same. It's a FREE world!

rottennaija:


When you started, you mentioned that any standard set by Jehovah's Witnesses, they are to be judge by the same standard. Watchtower has set the standard and it will serve as a judgement for them.

Whether the information is old or not, it's there in watchtower library and as long as it there, it still valid. Anyway, you belong to group that prophesied that the end was coming in 1975 and then it failed, they deny they said so. I'm no surprise at your response.

Watchtower will continue to be its own worse enemy.

rottennaija:


I'm no fool to agree with your analogy when I see every about your anology is bending everything to fit with your objectives. If I had disagree with watchtower even with their craftiness and manipulate, I do not see why your own case is different. After all, when you are from you father the liar, I expect the lie to be ingrained in you.

Maximus69:
You're blessed Sir!
Let it be, because we're OK with whatever we hear from our GB, if they say 'STAND!' anybody that's still sitting{apart from on health ground} is NO MORE ONE OF US, and when they say 'SIT!' whoever questions the sudden change in order is NO MORE WITH US!
You are obviously part of those who feels the orders mustn't CHANGE so you're FREE to take your leave Sir!

Maximus69:
FINE!
So since you're certain that we're from our father the liar and you're not ready to join the FAMILY, so why not just forget about us and go start another group or better still join the group whose father is the truth?

rottennaija:


Again, you get everything wrong about us. These scriptures below surmarise what we stand for...

St. Matthew 20:25 - 27
But Jesus called them together and said, "You know that in this world kings are tyrants, and officials lord it over the people beneath them. But among you it should be quite different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must become your slave.

1 Peter 5:3 Don't lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your good example.

2 Corinthians 1:24 But that does not mean we want to tell you exactly how to put your faith into practice. We want to work together with you so you will be full of joy as you stand firm in your faith.

Maximus69:
Hmmm,
That's thoughtful of you Sir, and since you can sense that over 8,000,000 [still counting] is loyally submissive to our GB, and you are also certain that we're of our father the liar. Is it not wise to forget about us to go and fetch for those who will not continue following the GB?

rottennaija:


Sometimes I wonder if the same person that is willing to bend everything in the Bible to fit with his doctrine and put on so much strenuous reasoning into his work is the one typing the above!!!

Anyway, I have heard you. But I know you know my answer to that.

rottennaija:


St. Matthew 15:24 Then he said to the woman, " I was sent only to help the people of Israel—God's lost sheep—not the Gentiles. "

Maximus69:
Please who are God's lost sheep now? And who are the Gentiles?
I thought you said there is NO distinction between the JWs and other religious groups claiming Christians!
Hope you're not saying you can't get your sheep elsewhere?

rottennaija:


So you don't know there is not much difference between? Hmmmm

Maximus69:
If you're sure THERE IS NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN why not forget about JWs and go for those who aren't sticking to the GB?

achorladey:




CAPTIVATOR: I am responding to this first because it is a dead attempt to change the truth.

Achorladey: Change what TRUTH?

CAPTIVATOR: Are you aware that many of these translation that says " ON " actually translated the same word as " OVER " at Matthew 18:13?

Achorladey: Didn't you see my explanation on the use of ON as it relates to other verses in Revelation chapter 5. You are taking me to Matthew 18:13.

CAPTIVATOR: Like jozy pointed out. You never gave attentiom to this . Giving credence to a translation that uses over the earth. So let's see what the facts reveal.

Achorladey: Were you not the one who respond on his behalf? Go back to the post and see.

I hope to see what the fact REVEAL.

CAPTIVATOR: The Kingdom is a Kingdom of Heaven.

Achorladey: Yes

CAPTIVATOR: That's the location of government.

Achorladey: Really? Have you taken a second look at it? I only see this as a statement from you nothing more to it. Take a second look at use of "KINGDOM of HEAVEN", and "KINGDOM OF GOD" and "IN THE KINGDOM of the HEAVENS".

CAPTIVATOR: You would have understand if you took time to reflect on Jesus been called " heavenly one" together with those with the heavenly calling.


Achorladey: How does the above answer the question

Is there anything STOPPING CHRIST the HEAVENLY ONE from REIGNING with those he made KINGS and PRIEST ON THE EARTH?

CAPTIVATOR: "Like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly"

Achorladey: Same question applies to these ones as well, that they are like the HEAVENLY ONE

Is there anything STOPPING CHRIST from REIGNING with those( HEAVENLY ONE) he made KINGS and PRIEST ON THE EARTH?

CAPTIVATOR: He was a materialized flesh Not Spirit at that moment he met Mary. Mary can't see him in spirit form so he materialized. The way he appears and disappears at will like angels in the past proved this.

Achorladey: and then

CAPTIVATOR: He later said he wasn't a spirit because a spirit won't have flesh and bones as he had at that moment. That's just to make him visible to his apostles. All that lasted till he return to the spirit realm , years later apostle Paul regarded him as the heavenly one.

Achorladey: Was JESUS who was RAISED as A SPIRIT not HEAVENLY when he was resurrected? Or is it until JESUS got back to HEAVEN he became HEAVENLY?

CAPTIVATOR: Spirit is not flesh.

Achorladey: I know.

CAPTIVATOR: Whatever has been born from spirit is Spirit " John 3:6 . which gives this rulers together with Christ the heavenly hope as Spirits.

Achorladey: How does the above answer the question

Is there anything STOPPING CHRIST from REIGNING with those he made KINGS and PRIEST ON THE EARTH.

rottennaija:


The scriptures below perfectly summarize the condition which the GB has put Jws:

St. Matthew 23:13 "How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you won't let others enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and you won't go in yourselves.

St. Matthew 23:15 Yes, how terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn him into twice the son of hell as you yourselves are.

St. Luke 11:52 "How terrible it will be for you experts in religious law! For you hide the key to knowledge from the people. You don't enter the Kingdom yourselves, and you prevent others from entering."

rottennaija:


We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry​—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization. (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21)
w90 11/1 pp. 23-28 - The Watchtower—1990

www.nairaland.com/attachments/9351782_screenshot20190509000913_png5c539e862ac2e3593e606bb896d457d6

Maximus69:
Stop quoting obsolete publications! i've told you not to quote whatever is older than 2years for me!
Why are you so full of old infos that's no more current?
We're talking about IDOLATRY and you're quoting the definition given 29 years ago!
Of course you shouldn't expect me to abide by that old definition of idolatry when so many forms of idolatry have emerged within just the last decade!

rottennaija:




Actually, you mean truth is now obsolete? Truth given at the due season? Hmmm. If I remember correctly, in an earlier post, you mentioned that anything more than 2 weeks old is obsolete. So, your 2 years acceptability is even too far.

Of course, many other forms of idolatry has emerged and is added to what already existed. Obviously, one of it is the determination to follow your leaders wherever they lead you. This new type of idolatry is added to the list we already have like the 2000 year old form of idolatry shown below.

Philippians 3:19
"Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things."

This form of Idolatry must also be also obsolete because it was discovered more than 2000 years ago? And isn't idolatry today?

Maximus69:
Beautiful!
So since you're sure we are practicing idolatry, why not search for pure worship and join them? Or better still beg God to empower you with his holy spirit so that you and your friends can organise pure worship?
Is it by force to worship the way you feel is correct?
Please just do like Jesus who left the Pharisees and Saddusees to organise his own group in other for seekers of truth to IDENTIFY pure worship, instead of all this your questions questions questions and arguments arguments arguments!

rottennaija:


I was actually asking about that form of idolatry of 2000 years ago, is that one also obsolete?

Philippians 3:19
"Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things."

Maximus69:
Questions! Questions!! Questions!!!
My answers aren't gonna be of any use since you've concluded IN YOUR MIND that i'm just one of over 8,000,000 idolaters!
Why not leave the questions and move ahead with PURE WORSHIP if you've found something better?
I can only remember one group whose questions will NEVER end even while their contemporaries are busy working out their salvation! Luke 11:53-54