TAO11:


Thank you oo my brother. That boy is just been unnecessarily emotional. The fact speak for itself.

So this is Katsumoto?

Thanks for not ignoring him. Sometimes when you ignore them, they begin to believe their poorly constructed tales of the fantastic and
phantasmagoric.

On a lighter note . . . Hmm, just the way we defeated their forefathers, we have beaten him senseless, our children will one day defeat future Edo children, and , I am sure, our grand children will do the same to future Edo grand children.

Fool I quoted nobody. Just mentioned a name I dropped. It would be best if I could talk to you in person in order to knock some sense into you. Right now you are being very irrational. You are calling me emotional while I made no emotions statement. You are deliberately as usual confusing the mere quotation of others as proof. I have already told you what history means. Providing proof requires your claim to be true which is not the case and which is why your new strategy (old really) is to redefine the word proof. Troll, now talk alone or with your other two Yoruba who saw it fit for three Yoruba to simultaneously engage just one Edo. The truth is powerful and you Yoruba guys are going to need to engage in a 50 million vs 1 fight in order to not get completely obliterated by the truth and your slave passed.

The academic papers we provided were based on extensive archeological and anthropological research. The papers were taken through a rigorous scientific process before they were accepted for publication, unlike the beer parlour tales you have provided as support.

You are dumber than I first realized! You are probably even dumber than I am realizing right now.

oduademonest:


So this is Katsumoto?

Thanks for not ignoring him. Sometimes when you ignore them, they begin to believe their poorly constructed tales of the fantastic and
phantasmagoric.

On a lighter note . . . Hmm, just the way we defeated their forefathers, we have beaten him senseless, our children will one day defeat future Edo children, and , I am sure, our grand children will do the same to future Edo grand children.

Lol @ defeating their forefathers, etc.

Exactly why I often engage people like him to a standstill, because sometimes leaving them to wallow in their ignorance often give them a wrong impression.

Katsumoto actually sounds to me like Japanese, Lol! But I am not tho. I am TAO11.

I will be doing another reply today to correct one other mistaken position that someone else (just as the moniker which I originally replied) had quoted me on.

I will be putting you in copy if that's okay by you, cos I respect your inputs too.

samuk:


Benin got to know of Ife because Oduduwa (Imadoduwa in Benin language) was a Benin prince who was then the king at Ife. When Benin chiefs got to Ife to request him to come back to Benin after the death of the last Ogiso Owodo who was Oduduwa's father, the Benin spoke Benin to him and he understood because he was a Benin prince. He refused to return to Benin sitting old age and instead sent his son Oranmiyan.

So he was ruling over a group of people whose language he does not understand?


There is no direct evidence in Ife itself of the date when the brasses and terra-cottas were made, but there is evi-dence from Benin. D'Aveiro, who visited Benin City in 1485, reported that on the accession of an Oba of Benin, the new Oba had to send ambassadors to the Oni of Ife to request confirmation in office. To signify his agreement, the Oni sent back a brass hat, staff, and pectoral cross. Thus, we know that brass objects were being made in Ife and sent to Benin already when the first Europeans visited Benin. Another tradition records that the head of the late Oba was sent to Ife for burial and that a brass head was sent back in return to place on the altar dedicated to his memory. The Oba Oguola, who reigned towards the end of the Fourteenth Century, asked if the Oni could not send a brass-smith to teach the craft to his people. Igue-Igha went, and he is worshipped to this day in Benin as the patron of the brass-smiths. This tradition means that brass- casting must have been flourishing in Ife already before the late Fourteenth Century. How long before is a matter of guesswork, but it seems likely that the brasses were not made over a very long period since they appear to be the work of only two or three artists. We may assume then that
brass-casting in Ife flourished during the Twelfth to Four-teenth Centuries, but it may have begun earlier and con-
tinued later.



Source:
IFE in Nigerian Art
Author(s): Frank Willett
Source: African Arts, Vol. 1, No. 1 (Autumn, 1967), pp. 30-35+78
Published by: UCLA James S. Coleman African Studies Center


1. Why would Benin need confirmation from Ooni if they were not under political control from Ife?

The Benin story doesn't make sense at all. And I do not understand why Edo folks are fighting the true story. Even in present day Nigeria, Yorubas are way more advanced than Edos. It made sense that Edos would worship us for our awesomeness lol

You this Iddiott, answer your own question of you know it. Have you found answer to your own question yet? Keep trying, you just might find a way out of your misery. You are a damn bittchh and will soon get what is coming to you.

You bastards have a way of showing yourselves. Why do you ask questions you don't know answers to? Is it because you are jobless and just have to latch on to something? Omo Ale jatijati, you have no idea what you are talking about, just opening mouth or raising fingers for the sake of it.

Were afofungbemu, get your head checked, you sound insane and desperate to make a roach a horse, get help you this dumb bittch.

TAO11:



Again, all you did was just simply make long bogus claims.

You did not substantiate your claim (that Ooni was not a king) with ANY evidence, reference material, proof, or reason, let alone an authoritative and academic one.

Boy, you need to be aware that to make a claim is one thing, while to substantiate the claim is another separate thing. Stop getting these two separate things mixed up. Anyone can make any wild and comedic claim.

I can, for example, make a long wringle claim to the effect that wowcatty is a b@stard. Will you then agree that my claim is true just simply because I made the claim (i.e. without any substantiation)?

Simply making a claim doesn't automatically make it a true claim. Provide your authoritative historical reference.

Also, you asked whether my answer to my own question is different from yours.

In respect of your failed attempt to be cunning, you should be reminded that you've unfortunately ran out of luck because of the person you're dealing with at the moment. Lol!

Your answers were to questions I never asked you, so how then does the issue of comparing our answers even come up?

I had asked you the simple straight forward question:

Who was the founder of Oyo kingdom?

And the unrelated answer you returned with was that:

Oranmiyan was not the founder of Oyo kingdom

How in your clogged mind is that supoosed to be even remotely connected to the question I asked you, let alone comparing it with my answer? Lol!

My question remains that:

Whoever the founder of Oyo kingdom is, who is that person -- what is his name?

Does this straightforward question appear to you to be some incomprehensible rocket science?

It is understandable if you do not posses enough knowledge of history to be able to answer the question.

Make your confession if that is your case (it's nothing to be ashamed about), and I will provide the answer, and then we may continue the discussion from there by examining the consequences of the answer.

Peace

wowcatty:
Empty epistle from a jobless swine. You must be insane if you expect me to answer the way you want. I repeat, answer your own question if you know what you are saying and then compare with my last post, but you would rather keep going in circle like a hamster on wheel.

To even think that Alaafin would bow to Ooni of all people makes you a cuckoo.

Your kind is the reason roadside bloggers and cheap columnists are still in business because you swallow headlines hook, line and sinker. Just about any picture can be captioned with title to hoodwink you cos you are gullible.

You do not expect Alaafin to respond to something as frivolous as that from the public, do you? You will still be one of those who would call him agbaya if he did all because you want to put Ooni where he doesn't belong.

No matter what, a dog will never become a horse. Araba ni baba, eni a ba l'aba ni baba, Alaafin is the paramount ruler or Yorubaland. Ooni is not an Oba but an Abore who is trying to upstage his superior but as they say, lala to r'oke ile lo nbo. You can't fake royalty, it will always end the way of the disgraced former Ooni.

Keep spewing your frustration out, I'll pick anything new in it and respond, and send the rest to your throat garbage disposal.

Since you are a picture whcre, I found you one where Ooni is bowing to emperor or Oba Amosun as normally seen in your twisted mind.


,

Not true at all. The Alaafin is being dishonest with his revision of Yoruba history. Secondly, the Alaafin is ruling over a dead empire. The current Oyo is not the great Oyo empire.



The origin of the conflict may more appropriately be credited to the British, who cannot be absolved of double-dealing in their methods of colonial rule. Despite the fact that the sovereignty of each of the Yoruba kingdoms was recognized by the series of treaties signed between each of them and the British before any agreement was ever signed with Oyo, another treaty, signed in 1893, acknowledged
the Alaafin as the overall ruler of Yorubaland.

The origin of the latter treaty lay in the British desire to gain direct access to the trade of Ibadan, which was being denied by the Ijebu and the Egba, with the support of Ife (Ijebu had been an ally of Ife since the Owu war). Ibadan recognized the overlordship of the Alaafin despite its military strength, but simultane-ously supported the British when Ijebu-Ode was attacked. The British needed Ibadan trade as much as Ibadan needed British arms. So the British rewarded their allies; hence the treaty recognizing the overall headship of Oyo in Yorubaland was signed. It is possible that since the British first dealt with the Egba, who had just fought and won their independence from Oyo, they logically thought
that the Great Oyo empire covered all of Yorubaland.

No sooner was the treaty signed than the error of having accepted the Alaafin as the supreme ruler of Yorubaland was discovered. This might have arisen from the desire to build indirect rule on historic foundations.

In a confidential dispatch on the order of precedence of the Yoruba rulers to the governor of Lagos, a British Resident of Oyo Province, H. L. Ward Price, noted that various Yoruba rulers used to make false claims before British officials on the matter and that he had ample evidence that the Ooni was the leading chief

The British were then faced with a dilemma. To go back on what they had done was distasteful. But the reality of the situation forced them to turn to the Ooni on certain issues involving tradtional rulers even outside Oyo Province.


Source:
The Descent from Oduduwa: Claims of Superiority among Some Yoruba Traditional Rulers
and the Arts of Ancient Ife
Author(s): Cornelius O. Adepegba
Source: The International Journal of African Historical Studies, Vol. 19, No. 1 (1986), pp.
77-92
Published by: Boston University African Studies Center

wowcatty:
Empty epistle from a jobless swine. You must be insane if you expect me to answer the way you want. I repeat, answer your own question if you know what you are saying and then compare with my last post, but you would rather keep going in circle like a hamster on wheel.

To even think that Alaafin would bow to Ooni of all people makes you a cuckoo.

Your kind is the reason roadside bloggers and cheap columnists are still in business because you swallow headlines hook, line and sinker. Just about any picture can be captioned with title to hoodwink you cos you are gullible.

You do not expect Alaafin to respond to something as frivolous as that from the public, do you? You will still be one of those who would call him agbaya if he did all because you want to put Ooni where he doesn't belong.

No matter what, a dog will never become a horse. Araba ni baba, eni a ba l'aba ni baba, Alaafin is the paramount ruler or Yorubaland. Ooni is not an Oba but an Abore who is trying to upstage his superior but as they say, lala to r'oke ile lo nbo. You can't fake royalty, it will always end the way of the disgraced former Ooni.

Keep spewing your frustration out, I'll pick anything new in it and respond, and send the rest to your throat garbage disposal.

Since you are a picture whcre, I found you one where Ooni is bowing to emperor or Oba Amosun as normally seen in your twisted mind.

,

You probably got this from Samuel Johnson's book. The book is flawed. How can Alaafin be the supreme king, when Ife is the cradle; doesn't even make any sense.

In 1901 an Ijebu man found it necessary to make an emphatic declaration on Yoruba
history:
I deny that Oyo is the capital city of Yoruba land. Ife, the cradle home of the whole Yorubas and the land of the deified Oduduwa, has been recognised by every interior tribe (including Benin and Ketu) for all intents and purposes as the capital city.

Source:
C.A. Sapara Williams, speaking to the Lagos Institute. Quoted in J. Herskovits, "The Sierra
Leoneans of Yorubaland," in P.D. Curtin (ed.), Africa and the West (Madison, 1972), p. 82n

wowcatty:
You this Iddiott, I didn't read past half of the first line., and I'm only responding to string your dumb ass along till I find your time. Have you found answer to your own question yet? Keep trying, you just might find a way out of your misery. You are a damn bittchh and will soon get what is coming to you.

Hahaha, you coward!

I obviously know the answers to the simple questions and you also know the answers.

But you're dead-scared to say the answers (hence your avoiding the question) because you know the consequences of the answers on your dumb and imaginative 'Abore' claim which you couldn't provide evidence for.

For the sake of exposing your folly to everyone else who have been following this:

*Oranmiyan was the founder of Oyo kingdom.

(Provide me the name of the founder if you really think it's someone else).

*Oranmiyan hails from Ife where he was a Prince


**Additional Note:

*He left Ife as a Prince to establish an Oba dynasty in Igodomigodo land which he later called Ubinu land.

*This was at a time when Oyo kingdom was not even founded by him yet.

*How then, in your inferior and clogged mind, could the throne at Oyo (which he later founded) be superior to the throne at Ife which predated Oyo, and from where he hailed as just a prince?

Use your upper!

oduademonest:


You probably got this from Samuel Johnson's book. The book is flawed. How can Alaafin be the supreme king, when Ife is the cradle; doesn't even make any sense.

In 1901 an Ijebu man found it necessary to make an emphatic declaration on Yoruba
history:
I deny that Oyo is the capital city of Yoruba land. Ife, the cradle home of the whole Yorubas and the land of the deified Oduduwa, has been recognised by every interior tribe (including Benin and Ketu) for all intents and purposes as the capital city.

Source:
C.A. Sapara Williams, speaking to the Lagos Institute. Quoted in J. Herskovits, "The Sierra
Leoneans of Yorubaland," in P.D. Curtin (ed.), Africa and the West (Madison, 1972), p. 82n

Thanks bro.

Don't mind that lad, by their inferiority complex and insecurity we shall know them.

oduademonest:


Not true at all. The Alaafin is being dishonest with his revision of Yoruba history. Secondly, the Alaafin is ruling over a dead empire. The current Oyo is not the great Oyo empire.



The origin of the conflict may more appropriately be credited to the British, who cannot be absolved of double-dealing in their methods of colonial rule. Despite the fact that the sovereignty of each of the Yoruba kingdoms was recognized by the series of treaties signed between each of them and the British before any agreement was ever signed with Oyo, another treaty, signed in 1893, acknowledged
the Alaafin as the overall ruler of Yorubaland.

The origin of the latter treaty lay in the British desire to gain direct access to the trade of Ibadan, which was being denied by the Ijebu and the Egba, with the support of Ife (Ijebu had been an ally of Ife since the Owu war). Ibadan recognized the overlordship of the Alaafin despite its military strength, but simultane-ously supported the British when Ijebu-Ode was attacked. The British needed Ibadan trade as much as Ibadan needed British arms. So the British rewarded their allies; hence the treaty recognizing the overall headship of Oyo in Yorubaland was signed. It is possible that since the British first dealt with the Egba, who had just fought and won their independence from Oyo, they logically thought
that the Great Oyo empire covered all of Yorubaland.

No sooner was the treaty signed than the error of having accepted the Alaafin as the supreme ruler of Yorubaland was discovered. This might have arisen from the desire to build indirect rule on historic foundations.

In a confidential dispatch on the order of precedence of the Yoruba rulers to the governor of Lagos, a British Resident of Oyo Province, H. L. Ward Price, noted that various Yoruba rulers used to make false claims before British officials on the matter and that he had ample evidence that the Ooni was the leading chief

The British were then faced with a dilemma. To go back on what they had done was distasteful. But the reality of the situation forced them to turn to the Ooni on certain issues involving tradtional rulers even outside Oyo Province.


Source:
The Descent from Oduduwa: Claims of Superiority among Some Yoruba Traditional Rulers
and the Arts of Ancient Ife
Author(s): Cornelius O. Adepegba
Source: The International Journal of African Historical Studies, Vol. 19, No. 1 (1986), pp.
77-92
Published by: Boston University African Studies Center

Thank you bro. I read this scholarly academic material recently. It's highly highly informative.

samuk:


Don't quote me out of context. If you must quote me, do so completely. Yes Oranmiya ruled in Benin briefly as the grandson of Benin last Ogiso Owodo. Ogiso Owodo was the father of Oduduwa. This is what the Benin accept.

This version of history is relatively new and self-serving.

There are no their records made before the early 1970s (Akinola 1976:21-36; Aisien 1995:18), while among common people the story of Ekaladerhan that ends with the Prince's banishing from Benin and subsequent dethronement of his father, the last Ogiso Owodo, is known (and was recorded hundred years ago) (Roth 1903: 53-54; Emovon 1981: 268-70, 275-76). There is no doubt that the apocryphal versions are not ancient and are not popular. Their authors are representatives of the nationalistically-minded part of the Bini intelligentsia who are seeking to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for their people and claims for its exclusive part in the sociopolitical life of independent Nigeria (Akinola 1976:21-36; Otite 1977: 45; Kochakova

Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point
Author(s): Dmitri M. Bondarenko
Source: History in Africa, Vol. 30 (2003), pp. 63-85
Published by: Cambridge University Press
Accessed: 12-05-2019 03:45 UTC

TAO11:


Thank you bro. I read this scholarly academic material recently. It's highly highly informative.

I have really learnt a lot from your posts. Still difficult to believe you are not Katsumoto. LOL Thank you!

I got into this stuff recently because I really wanted to know the truth about Yoruba history. I really didn't care if we were the dumbest or the most civilized. Just the truth. I have learned so much. The biggest problem is that our forefathers did not write anything down, Not sure why? SO unfortunate for such an advanced civilization.

The more I read about Yoruba history, especially the works of Clapperton, Bascom, Fagg, Dmitri etc, the prouder I am of the culture. The only dark spot is the Atlantic Slave Trade. I think our forefathers effed up big time. Do you think out forefathers sold fellow Yorubas to outsiders? How did they decide who to sell? Any insight? I read Ijesas were captured and sold because they speak in a funny way; Ijesa became corrupted as Ije Oosa (Oosa's food) lol. Hence, the justification to sell them. So sad!!!

Iddiot, Oranmiyani couldn't have been the founder of Oyo just as Oduduwa is not the founder of Ile Ife as it has been alleged by you lowllifes. Oranmiyan didn't get to Oyo until he left Bin and he got to Oyo in 13th century way later than when Oyo has been in existence i. I knew you will get there and I laid out the net waiting for you.

I'd tou think you are entertaining anyone, no you are exposing your idiocy, period. You can't fake wisdom, and you are as dumb as rock.

Shame on you this lame rat. OMO AT'OKO WA BA LE JE, for twisting Yoruba history to favour an Abore, the same act that has turned Yoruba to slaves in their own land. You are probably one of the lab work experiments whose father is either ibo or fulani, iwo omo k'omo, omo atiro, akuku ibi sanse radarada.

You Omo Ale can't rewrite Yoruba history, there's a reason Ijebus look to Oyo rather than Ile Ife, y'all full of shitt.

TAO11:


Hahaha, you coward!

I obviously know the answers to the simple questions and you also know the answers.

But you're dead-scared to say the answers (hence your avoiding the question) because you know the consequences of the answers on your dumb and imaginative 'Abore' claim which you couldn't provide evidence for.

For the sake of exposing your folly to everyone else who have been following this:

*Oranmiyan was the founder of Oyo kingdom.

(Provide me the name of the founder if you really think it's someone else).

*Oranmiyan hails from Ife where he was a Prince


**Additional Note:

*He left Ife as a Prince to establish an Oba dynasty in Igodomigodo land which he later called Ubinu land.

*This was at a time when Oyo kingdom was not even founded by him yet.

*How then, in your inferior and clogged mind, could the throne at Oyo (which he later founded) be superior to the throne at Ife which predated Oyo, and from where he hailed as just a prince?

Use your upper!

wowcatty:
And the yadayada litany continues.Why not answer your own question if you know it and if they are different from mine? Asking questions you yourself don't know the answer to shows you are a hypocrite. You are still saying the same thing and will keep getting the same response.

Before you claim knowledge highground, you need to be on it first, you have no idea what you are talking about, just trashy sound bite-filled nonsense.

Yoruba ancient communities have always have Obas and then Abores, and you can't because of modern day shame of being looked down by different religions now bolt away from traditions of Ooni being a priest, usurping Alaafin, it will never work. You will just continue to divide Yoruba because some people can't sit by and watch such injustice take footholds. My great grandmother time knew Alaafin to be Oba and Ooni to be Abore, and no modern day phenomenon will change the fact that Awolowo just did his friend and fellow Orisa adherent Ooni Aderemi, a favor by passing over Alaafin to make him the governor general. That was just a bump in the road, not here to stay, the old Alaafin may be quite but a young one won't and that's when you will know that swapping positions is dangerous.

If Abore tradition is no longer needed, then scrap it, we already have emperical paramount Oba, alase ekeji Orisa Alaafin, not propaganda bootleg oba who has turned his shrine office to a palace just cos of envy of Alaafin.

Get your head out or your ass, your dumb propaganda will only work on those who don't know their history and willing to learn. Ww will never see Ooni as Oba let alone a senior Oba, he's Ooni, an Abore. Propaganda se ti.

You are very annoying and puerile. Very incoherent as well. You are either immature or underdeveloped. Either way, you need to start acting more mature or I will block you from ever being able to post on this board.

oduademonest:


I have really learnt a lot from your posts. Still difficult to believe you are not Katsumoto. LOL Thank you!

I got into this stuff recently because I really wanted to know the truth about Yoruba history. I really didn't care if we were the dumbest or the most civilized. Just the truth. I have learned so much. The biggest problem is that our forefathers did not write anything down, Not sure why? SO unfortunate for such an advanced civilization.

The more I read about Yoruba history, especially the works of Clapperton, Bascom, Fagg, Dmitri etc, the prouder I am of the culture. The only dark spot is the Atlantic Slave Trade. I think our forefathers effed up big time. Do you think out forefathers sold fellow Yorubas to outsiders? How did they decide who to sell? Any insight? I read Ijesas were captured and sold because they speak in a funny way; Ijesa became corrupted as Ije Oosa (Oosa's food) lol. Hence, the justification to sell them. So sad!!!

My brother, the learning is mutual. I have learnt a lot from you too recently.

I am not Katsumoto tho. Lol!

Katsumoto must be someone I also should be dying to read from, and I am humbled that you think of me in such an apparently generous and respectable manner.

I was also motivated to investigate Yoruba history for similar reasons. The empty chest beating from our Ubinu kins is just so annoying.

And I became embarrassed for them when investigations revealed their very low status in relation to the Yoruba civilization at Ifè.

Regarding writting, it's not that our father's didn't write nothing down. They actually did.

The reality appears to be that writting (among the ancient "Yorubas" in early Ife) was either an extraordinary skill which only few privileged ones could acquire (hence the scanty surviving materials), or it was that an imperialist contact wiped off the ton of surviving materials.

But truth is that there was a system of writing among the ancient "Yorubas" in early Ife, centuries (if not millennia) prior to our adoption of Latin/Roman script for Aa, Bb, Dd, ...

This writing system, which encompasses the history and philosophy of Ife is known in early Ife as Ikedu. The surviving text is unpublicized for certain reasons, but some experts have been able to access and decipher it.

It is in this text for example that we find the name for the Supreme Being among the people of ancient Ife to be the protoword Orisanobu-Oghene which, to some extent, goes to bolster the Yoruba mythology that everyone (including the Binis, Urhobo, Esan, etc.) spread out from Ife because these peoples' words for God are obviously derivatives from, or cognate with this Ife word. In other words "Osanobua" from "Orisanobu"; "Osa" from "Orisa" or "Oosa"; "Oghene" being unchanged in Urhobo; etc.

Regarding those mighty words penned down by those historians, anthropologists, and archaeologist, I sometimes feel like crying whenever I encounter those words. They make me feel really proud and aware.

Imagine the reaction from Leo Frobenius when he encountered the Olokun Head. Imagine his funny but yet soothing conclusion regarding who he thinks the ancient Ifès really are.

What about the reaction from William Bascom in the Illustrated London News that year when another set of finds were excavated? Enigmatic! Yoruba indeed is King!

On slavery, my personal opinion which I adopted very recently is to generally refrain from absolute judgement of the worldview of ancient peoples especially through the lenses of our modern times.

We have only recently in modern times evolved to handle our affairs with more humanity than ancient people did.

I beleive their actions (in the specific context of selling slaves) should not be viewed in such absolutely gross terms, because to have expected them to manage their affairs exactly in accordance with our highly evolved modern moral standards will be to be asking for too much from them, and will also mean that we ourselves have not really grown, developed and evolved since then.

Human societies in ancient times are almost by default at war with each other, such that concious efforts and real steps have to be taken by at least some of them, for them to be mutually at peace -- i.e. to not attack each other. It was by default an expansionist milieu.

Our societies today have evolved in almost the direct opposite direction, in the sense that societies are now by default at mutual peace with each other, and concious effort and real steps have to be taken by at least some of us, for us to be at war with each other.

It is only very recently that we have been able to develop global conventions (such as the Geneva Convention, the Hay Convention, etc. to which many nations all over the globe are signatories) on how nations should treat prisoners of war (in the case of a Just War), etc. in the most respectable and humane manner possible.

But ancient peoples, (including the different independent and sovereign "Yoruba" groups) who obviously lived in an expansionist milieu and are therefore by default at war each other, could not possibly have phantomed and appreciated why there should be any restrictions on selling their war captives especially when there is a readily available market for such prisoners.

They couldn't have been able to imagine why there should be any such restrictions if we are to be honest and to be fair to them.

So, whatever immoral acts (by our modern standards) they engaged in (in the specific context of selling prisoners of war as slaves) if viewed in the light of the foregoing background may cause us to judge them quite fairly and differently from how we're used to.

But to unconditionally impose our modern standards of morality on them (in this specific context of slave trade) will simply mean to be hypocritical and to be demanding for too much from them.

Cc: Ollaxworld

Shut it already! You are triple obnoxious and disgusting. Whatever feeling you have should naturally rot in your gut. Ko ni da fun iyalaya e if you don't block me. Who cares what you think, your fantasy can only be lived out anonymously on faceless forum,. You will still go back to be the real failure you are, and an attention seeking whcre who 'd rather be someone else instead of your hopeless self.

oduademonest:


You are very annoying and puerile. Very incoherent as well. You are either immature or underdeveloped. Either way, you need to start acting more mature or I will block you from ever being able to post on this board.

wowcatty:
Iddiot, Oranmiyani couldn't have been the founder of Oyo just as Oduduwa is not the founder of Ile Ife as it has been alleged by you lowllifes. Oranmiyan didn't get to Oyo until he left Bin and he got to Oyo in 13th century way later than when Oyo has been in existence i. I knew you will get there and I laid out the net waiting for you.

I'd tou think you are entertaining anyone, no you are exposing your idiocy, period. You can't fake wisdom, and you are as dumb as rock.

Shame on you this lame rat. OMO AT'OKO WA BA T'ILE JE, for twisting Yoruba history to favour an Abore, the same act that has turned Yoruba to slaves in their own land. You are probably one of the lab work experiments whose father is either ibo or fulani, iwo omo k'omo, omo atiro, akuku ibi sanse radarada.

You Omo Ale can't rewrite Yoruba history, there's reason Ijebus look up to Oyo rather than Ile Ife, y'all full of shitt.

Cite your sources for your claim that Oranmiyan was not the founder of Oyo and put all historians, anthropologists, and archaeologists the world over to shame. Lol!

But until then your empty claims (including your empty unsubstantiated 'Abore' claim) hold no water.

And mind you, you haven't mentioned the name of the founder of Oyo kingdom since in your deluded mind it's not Oranmiyan.

I guess the founder of Oyo kingdom is wowcatty,

Stop manufacturing dates and claims from thin air, you're no authority. Cite your authoritative sources.

Listen to his dumb argument:

Oranmiyan is not the founder of Oyo BECAUSE Oduduwa is not the founder of Ife.

Did I really stoop low to engage an empty dummy like this wowcatty in a conversation? Me sef, I dey Bleep up sometimes

Ofcourse if this is Katsumoto, he should be typing from a nursing home or on his way there simply trying to play catch-up with the youths after wasting his life. He has failed in life and love and probably with no children since his type are too selfish to take care of any child. Nairaland has always been the refuge for you transgender whcres and where you feel you can escape your useless lives and as a hopeless cab driver somewhere abroad if he hasn't been deported and made to face his early years lack of planning for the raining days. What a useless man! He avoided me in my teenage years and has no choice now that to face me in his old age. I remember when I joined nairaland, I was a 19 year old damsel while he was already a fully grown man. You two are just a bunch of frustrated useless men who have nothing going for you except nairaland. Awon oloshi eyan who should be tied down in an abattoir to make food for pigs.

oduademonest:


So this is Katsumoto?

Thanks for not ignoring him. Sometimes when you ignore them, they begin to believe their poorly constructed tales of the fantastic and
phantasmagoric.

On a lighter note . . . Hmm, just the way we defeated their forefathers, we have beaten him senseless, our children will one day defeat future Edo children, and , I am sure, our grand children will do the same to future Edo grand children.

wowcatty:
Ofcourse if this is Katsumoto, he should be typing from a nursing home or on his way there or simply trying to play catch-up with the youths after wasting his life. He has failed in life and love and probably with no children since his type are too selfish to take care of any child. Nairaland is where is where he feels he can escape his useless life as a hopeless cab driver somewhere abroad if he hasn't been deported and made to face his early years lack of planning for the raining days. What a useless man! He avoided me in my teenage years and has no choice now that to face me in his old age cos I remember when I joined nairaland, I was a 19 year old damsel while he was already a fully grown man. You are just a bunch of frustrated useless men who have nothing going for you except nairaland.

Depression indeed is real!

You shall overcome!

Asinwin, I think what you have is a serious mental problem. And you won't come out of it.

TAO11:


Depression indeed is real!

You shall overcome!

Asinwin, I think what you have is a mental problem. And you won't come out of it.

TAO11:


Depression indeed is real!

You shall overcome!

wowcatty:
Asinwin, I think what you have is a mental problem. And you won't come out of it.

The typical response expected from a depressed individual.

Anyways, I love you too

However, please stay away from 3rd mainland bridge for now if you stay in or around Lagos. Also, avoid snipper for now.

I've already started helping you with prayers.

There is nothing too much for God to do. You shall surely overcome. It's a phase!

wowcatty:
Oduduwa is not the source of Yoruba, source has nothing to do with Oduduwa who met people in Ile Ife. And the there’s no such thing as “crown general” in Yorubaland, what we have is generalissimo which is Aareonakakanfo. Ooni is ABORE which is Orisa’s attendant, priest, custodian or butler, he’s not even an Oba at all. But money politics, betrayal, lack of respect for ancient traditions and sense of injustice in an average Yoruba is what brought us to this point. The Ooni stool is cursed because Abore’’s shrine is now called Ooni’s palace and the confusion has been from one Ooni to another, or is it not Ooni Sijuade the Judas who collected 30 pieces of silver on Abiola? And the new Ooni is on his way to even be worse than that. Slaves have a way of showing themselves.

'Ignant' much like your Alaafin/Oyo peoples?

Mention just 1 Orisa that Ooni is in charge of, just one or better still, mention one Orisa & I'll tell you the clan of that Orisa as well as the facebook page of the head or a son of that clan for verification. Heck, you could even come to Ife to verify.

You & your ilks have bandied this nonsensical story for years without recourse to how Ife is structured.

If anyone is a slave then it should be Alaafin. Eru, slave, lon ko ila. In Yorubaland, slaves are the ones with the type of marks found in the Alaafin family. Read C.O Adepegba's work. Also, if any King should be regarded as inferior in the entire Yorubaland then it is the Alaafin's throne: 1. The empire it controlled crumbled & was chased like a bitch to his friend's town which he usurped & sidelined his friend's family. It is like saying the Queen of Britain is superior to Arab Kings because Britain once ran the whole world or say the Roman King is superior to British Queen because Roman was colonized Britain. 2. Alaafin has no fecking crown! There are 16/32 Kings with original crown, Alaafin has 'zero' crown. In fact, the throne has a 'crown' made of sese efun [white beads] which is sacred to Obatala; who knows if Alaafin was the son of the slave woman who became a votive of Obatala?

Feck outta here. Ife is still the head of all Yoruba towns & the Ooni is still the head of all Oba Alade in Yorubaland in Nigeria & in the diaspora.

You are welcome.

TAO11:


With due respect sir, the Noah Flood story is an actual and true historical event.

What experts have disassembled is its universality.

Experts have come to the realization that it is a famous local deluge in the distant past in some corner of the world, rather than it been a universal cataclysm.

The existence of several flood myths among different ancient cultures of the world, all over the globe (including among the ancient people of Ife) does not undermine the Noah Flood account, rather it buttresses it. So say the experts.

We can explore this subject further if you're open to the duscussion.

Cc:

forgiveness
kunmiiii

Actually the Noah story isn't true. It was adopted from the mysticism of other cultures just like Osiris & Horus story was adapted to the virgin status of Mary & saviour-murder status of Jesus. You just need to read a little bit more.

kunmiiii:


Yes, you try...very worthy of note, the embolden was very enthralling because it was totally rebellious to the narration that has been propagated and accepted by a lot of people.

Nice one, thanks!

In other words, the "Yorubas" had a god of thunder centuries before Shango-Alaafin Oyo, or even his father Oranmiyan, was born. Shango Alaafin Oyo became named after this man because this son of Oranmiyan was thought to possess similar temperament as this great man who lingers in the memory of the "Yorubas".

Across Yorubaland, it was Jakuta [fights by hurling stones].

In Ife, it was & is Oranfe. Ora is Ife's dialect of Ara. Hence Oranfe [Thunder in Ife].

wowcatty:
And the yadayada litany continues.Why not answer your own question if you know it and if they are different from mine? Asking questions you yourself don't know the answer to shows you are a hypocrite. You are still saying the same thing and will keep getting the same response.

Before you claim knowledge highground, you need to be on it first, you have no idea what you are talking about, just trashy sound bite-filled nonsense.

Yoruba ancient communities have always have Obas and then Abores, and you can't because of modern day shame of being looked down by different religions now bolt away from traditions of Ooni being a priest, usurping Alaafin, it will never work. You will just continue to divide Yoruba because some people can't sit by and watch such injustice take footholds. My great grandmother time knew Alaafin to be Oba and Ooni to be Abore, and no modern day phenomenon will change the fact that Awolowo just did his friend and fellow Orisa adherent Ooni Aderemi, a favor by passing over Alaafin to make him the governor general. That was just a bump in the road, not here to stay, the old Alaafin may be quite but a young one won't and that's when you will know that swapping positions is dangerous.

If Abore tradition is no longer needed, then scrap it, we already have emperical paramount Oba, alase ekeji Orisa Alaafin, not propaganda bootleg oba who has turned his shrine office to a palace just cos of envy of Alaafin.

Get your head out or your ass, your dumb propaganda will only work on those who don't know their history and willing to learn. Ww will never see Ooni as Oba let alone a senior Oba, he's Ooni, an Abore. Propaganda se ti.

You are so fixated on this Abore nonsense that you do not see how badly you are embarrassing yourself.

Ife is structured in a pyramid way, make I show you:

Ooni
Isoro Agba Ife

The Isooro were the Kings of each autonomous communities that preceded Ife. The Kings of these autonomous towns are the deified Orisa we have today. The Isoro are 201 in number but 16 of them are the foremost. Their obligations are to head their autonomous towns & head the festival, initiation, procession & whatever has to do with the deity that started their clan.

Agba Ife are also autochthonous people who supported the creation & developed the administration of Ife. Each of them is tied to an Orisa.

The Ooni [& the four ruling houses] is the only clan that is not derived from any Orisa & is not tied to any Orisa. Instead, the Ooni has an 'Abore' in the person of Obadio who is the Chief priest of Oduduwa & the head of Oduduwa's section of Ife called Idio.

P.S: I didn't mention the Modewa because they are of servant progeny who serve in the palace but are tied to provifing services to Oduduwa/Oranfe & Obatala/Ifa.

TAO11:


My brother, the learning is mutual. I have learnt a lot from you too recently.

I am not Katsumoto tho. Lol!

Katsumoto must be someone I also should be dying to read from, and I am humbled that you think of me in such an apparently generous and respectable manner.

I was also motivated to investigate Yoruba history for similar reasons. The empty chest beating from our Ubinu kins is just so annoying.

And I became embarrassed for them when thorough investigations showed their very low place in relation to the Yoruba civilization.

Regarding writting, it's not that our father's didn't write nothing down. They actually did.

The reality appears to be that writting (among the ancient "Yorubas" in early Ife) was either an extraordinary skill which only few privileged ones could acquire (hence the scanty surviving materials), or it was that an imperialist contact wiped off the ton of surviving materials.

But truth is that there was a system of writing among the ancient "Yorubas" in early Ife, centuries (if not millennia) prior to our adoption of Latin/Roman script for Aa, Bb, Dd, ...

This writing system, which encompasses the history and philosophy of Ife is known in early Ife as Ikedu. The surviving text is unpublicized for certain reasons, but some experts have been able to access it.

It is in this text for example that we find that the name for the Supreme Being among the people of ancient Ife to be the proto-word Orisanobu-Oghene which, to some extent, goes to bolster the Yoruba mythology that everyone (including the Binis, Urhobo, Esan, etc.) spread out from Ife because these peoples words for God are obviously derivatives from, or cognate with this Ife word. In other words "Osanobua" from "Orisanobu"; "Osa" from "Orisa" or "Oosa"; "Oghene" being unchanged in Urhobo; etc.

Regarding those mighty words penned down by those historians, anthropologists, and archaeologist, I sometimes feel like crying whenever I encounter those words. They make me feel really proud and aware.

Imagine the reaction of Leo Frobenius when he encountered the Olokun Head. Imagine his funny but yet soothing conclusion regarding who he thinks the ancient Ifes really are. What about about the reaction of Willliam Bascom in the Illustrated London News that year when another set of finds were excavated?
Enigmatic! Yoruba indeed is King!

On slavery, my personal opinion which I adopted very recently is to refrain from absolute judgement of the worldview of ancient peoples especially through the lenses of our modern times.

We have only recently in modern times evolved to handle our affairs with more humanity than ancient people did.

I beleive their actions (in the context of slave trade) should not be viewed as evil in such gross and absolute terms (of course they also can not be absolutely excused), because to have expected them to manage their affairs exactly in accordance with our highly evolved moral standard of modern times will be to be asking for too much from them, and will also mean that we ourselves have not really grown, developed and evolved since then.

Human societies in ancient times are almost by default at war with each other, such that concious efforts and real steps have to be taken by at least some of them for them to be mutually at peace with each other -- i.e. to not attack each other. It was by default an expansionist milieu.

Our societies today have evolved in almost the direct opposite direction, in the sense that societies are now by default at mutual peace with each other, and concious effort and real steps have to be taken by at least some of them for them to be at war with each other.

We have only recently been able to develop global conventions (such as the Geneva Convention, the Hay Convention, etc. to which many nations all over the globe are signatories) on how nations should treat prisoners of war, etc. in the most respectable and humane manner possible.

But ancient peoples (including the different independent and sovereign "Yoruba" groups) who were by default at war each other do not understand why there should be any restriction on selling their war captives especially when there is a readily available market for such people.

They wouldn't be able to phantom such restrictions if we are to be honest, and to be fair to them. They simply could not imagine any such restriction.

So, whatever immoral acts (by our modern standards) they engaged in (particularly slave trade now in this context) if viewed in the light of the foregoing background may cause one to judge them quite fairly and differently from how we used to; but if we must be imposing our modern standards on them (in this particular context of slave trade) then we will simply be hypocritical and be demanding for too much from them.

There's no Ikedu anywhere, my G. The first person to present that thesis was Prof Akinjogbin who was only able to gather excerpts of it from Oral Tradition. No one speaks or knows about Ikedu. Not even Ife or Ugbo.

TAO11:

This writing system, which encompasses the history and philosophy of Ife is known in early Ife as Ikedu. The surviving text is unpublicized for certain reasons, but some experts have been able to access it.

I agree with you here, and you are 100% accurate with your overall analyses.

OgboAto:


There's no Ikedu anywhere, my G. The first person to present that thesis was Prof Akinjogbin who was only able to gather excerpts of it from Oral Tradition. No one speaks or knows about Ikedu. Not even Ife or Ugbo.

That is your opinion, nobody is here to discuss Ikedu with you.

Assuming you really want to learn and understand then you can always visit the right places. Becoming an apprentice to a good priest or visit the many royal palaces and seek their attention.


Thank You

TAO11:

The reality appears to be that writting (among the ancient "Yorubas" in early Ife) was either an extraordinary skill which only few privileged ones could acquire (hence the scanty surviving materials), or it was that an imperialist contact wiped off the ton of surviving materials..

Exactly, anyone who makes the effort to their research will always come up trumps.

The Yoruba writing system predates Latin in years that amount to hundreds ans thousands, these are the reasons that the European war mongers confisticated many of our artefacts and ancient sacred sites and NOT because they thought them Idol Worship.

They took them to their various conutries and totally fell in love with all of our concepts.

Because they were baffled how much they got it wrong about Africa.

And yet they (the Eurocentrics) refused to repent in the face of the truth, that which will eventually consume their conscience for eternity

The English writing, that i use to text at the very moment is said to be a derivative of the Yoruba Language.

If not for the Yoruba and various other relative African languages, the English Language could NOT have made the great and swift developments of the recent past.

In a sense, they would probably be still writting in the Shakespearian system, the old English system.

Similar to most African languages, the Yoruba language is older than Latin.

Unity is all about compromise and concessions.

Lets focus on our union.

Emperor Oduduwa is a well known Yoruba emmisary that came to great prominence in Ife.

The main take out of the Emperor's message is unity and security. That is the point i attempt to articulate here.

Let's unite behinde a common cause. i.e the Emperor and use their awesome influences to achieve all of our aspirations.

With that being achieved, our emergence from differences, in a complete understanding that it pays to accept unity, will be a great start towards other greater achievements.