Hebrews 1:1-3 New International Version (NIV)


1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3.The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

The Trinity is not a biblical teaching.

BIBLESPEAKS:
Hebrews 1:1-3 New International Version (NIV)


1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3.The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

Hi. Your profile suggests that your are a Jehovah's Witness, so you are almost certainly just looking for an argument to prove that your position that Jesus Christ is not God is true.

I think that such a conversation would be a waste of time and energy, but in the event that you may be willing to consider that your position may be wrong, and also for the sake of other readers, I will answer you.

To begin, the three verses say that God the Father Who once communicated to human beings through human intermediaries called prophets has now given us His Last Word, so to speak, through His Son Who is such a perfect representation of Him as to seal up all His Communication to man.

When this Son of His had fulfilled His Mission to purify human beings from their sins, He was received back into Heaven to sit down at the Father's Right Hand.

Now, I would like to add a bit more of that chapter for useful context:

[6]And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
[7]And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire."
[8]But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
[9]"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions."
[10]And, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[11]They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment,
[12]And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."
Hebrews 1:6-12 NASB

As you can see, the angels are commanded by the Father to worship the Son (v.6). Since only God must be worshipped, this is a clear Scriptural witness to the Deity of the Son.

You can also see that the Son is being contrasted with the angels here (vv.7-8 ), so that it makes no sense to think that He is or was ever one of them.

You should also note that from verses 8 to 12, God the Father Who is the Subject of Hebrews 1 is addressing the Son as God and speaking of His timelessness and eternity as well as His absolute superiority to all the created universe.

These things are only a drop in the bucket of staggering Scriptural evidence of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Ihedinobi3:

Hi. Your profile suggests that your are a Jehovah's Witness, so you are almost certainly just looking for an argument to prove that your position that Jesus Christ is not God is true.

I think that such a conversation would be a waste of time and energy, but in the event that you may be willing to consider that your position may be wrong, and also for the sake of other readers, I will answer you.

To begin, the three verses say that God the Father Who once communicated to human beings through human intermediaries called prophets has now given us His Last Word, so to speak, through His Son Who is such a perfect representation of Him as to seal up all His Communication to man.

When this Son of His had fulfilled His Mission to purify human beings from their sins, He was received back into Heaven to sit down at the Father's Right Hand.

Now, I would like to add a bit more of that chapter for useful context:

[6]And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
[7]And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire."
[8]But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
[9]"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions."
[10]And, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[11]They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment,
[12]And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."
Hebrews 1:6-12 NASB

As you can see, the angels are commanded by the Father to worship the Son (v.6). Since only God must be worshipped, this is a clear Scriptural witness to the Deity of the Son.

You can also see that the Son is being contrasted with the angels here (vv.7-8 ), so that it makes no sense to think that He is or was ever one of them.

You should also note that from verses 8 to 12, God the Father Who is the Subject of Hebrews 1 is addressing the Son as God and speaking of His timelessness and eternity as well as His absolute superiority to all the created universe.

These things are only a drop in the bucket of staggering Scriptural evidence of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Hi. I would rather consider this as deliberations rather than arguments, and I don't think it's a waste of time to deliberate over an important issue as this. I know that our deliberations will make some to see the truth.

I'm a non-trinitarian and we believe, even as the Bible teaches that there is one God - YHWH and one lord (and son of God), who is the mediator between God and man - Jesus. At the heart of the trinity doctrine is the logic that the father and the son are ontologically divided ie. they are two separate and equal beings. None greater or less than each other, each said to be God.

Its clear that the text here in Hebrew 1:1-3 disagrees with the views of trinitarians.

Hebrews 1:1 Starts off with: "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a son..."

The God here is clearly the father, because it's talking about his son. And the God spoken of here is the one who spoke long ago on many occasions in many ways through the prophets and in these last days, we're talking about the father - Everytime you see God speaking, it's the father according to this text.

Verse 3 continues: He(the son) is the reflection of his (God's) glory and the exact representation of his very being...

According to verse 3, Jesus Christ is a representation (copy) of God's being, he is not of the same being. This is an irrefutable text, there are no grammatical problems, there are no semantic difficulties, really there's no other way to interpret this text.

God is not a representation (copy) of anyone's being, but there is someone who is a representation (copy) of his being - Jesus Christ.

BIBLESPEAKS:


Hi. I would rather consider this as deliberations rather than arguments, and I don't think it's a waste of time to deliberate over an important issue as this. I know that our deliberations will make some to see the truth.

I'm a non-trinitarian and we believe, even as the Bible teaches that there is one God - YHWH and one lord (and son of God), who is the mediator between God and man - Jesus. At the heart of the trinity doctrine is the logic that the father and the son are ontologically divided ie. they are two separate and equal beings. None greater or less than each other, each said to be God.

Its clear that the text here in Hebrew 1:1-3 disagrees with the views of trinitarians.

Hebrews 1:1 Starts off with: "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a son..."

The God here is clearly the father, because it's talking about his son. And the God spoken of here is the one who spoke long ago on many occasions in many ways through the prophets and in these last days, we're talking about the father - Everytime you see God speaking, it's the father according to this text.

Verse 3 continues: He(the son) is the reflection of his (God's) glory and the exact representation of his very being...

According to verse 3, Jesus Christ is a representation (copy) of God's being, he is not of the same being. This is an irrefutable text, there are no grammatical problems, there are no semantic difficulties, really there's no other way to interpret this text.

God is not a representation (copy) of anyone's being, but there is someone who is a representation (copy) of his being - Jesus Christ.

You have free will, so you are free to call things whatever you want, even if that is not what they are, and to believe whatever you want, even if what you believe is not true. For these choices, there will be rewards and consequences from the Lord God, not from me.

First, the Bible does not teach what you claim. I already demonstrated that with Hebrews 1:8-12.

Second, the Doctrine of the Trinity does not hold that the Father and the Son are two separate beings, rather it holds that they are two separate Persons Who are One in essence. As One God then, neither is greater or less than the other.

As for Hebrews 1:1-3, if it is clear that that part of the Bible disagrees with the Doctrine of the Trinity, then your arguments will show how it does.

As for the notion that the God Who is being spoken of here is the Father, I don't see how we are in disagreement. I did say the very same thing. That the Father has always spoken through representatives, human and angelic, is borne out through all the Scriptures.

As for the Lord Jesus not being the Father (you yourself said that the Person being spoken of as God here is the Father), that is precisely what the Doctrine of the Trinity teaches. They are not the same Person. The Father is a separate Person from the Son, as I already said, and the Son is His Representative to us. This does not in any way mean that the Son is not God too. As you said, it only means that He is not the Father.

That is why I brought up the rest of the chapter. In verses 8-12, I can't begin to see how it is not clear that although the Son is not the Father, He is quite completely God just as the Father is too.

Edited.

Ihedinobi3:

You have free will, so you are free to call things whatever you want, even if that is not what they are, and to believe whatever you want, even if what you believe is not true. For these choices, there will be rewards and consequences from the Lord God, not from me.

First, the Bible does not teach what you claim. I already demonstrated that with Hebrews 1:8-12.

Second, the Doctrine of the Trinity does not hold that the Father and the Son are two separate beings, rather it holds that they are two separate Persons in one undivided Being. As One God then, neither is greater or less than the other.

As for Hebrews 1:1-3, if it is clear that that part of the Bible disagrees with the Doctrine of the Trinity, then your arguments will show how it does.

As for the notion that the God Who is being spoken of here is the Father, I don't see how we are in disagreement. I did say the very same thing. That the Father has always spoken through representatives, human and angelic, is borne out through all the Scriptures.

As for the Lord Jesus not being the Father (you yourself said that the Person being spoken of as God here is the Father), that is precisely what the Doctrine of the Trinity teaches. They are not the same Person. The Father is a separate Person from the Son, as I already said, and the Son is His Representative to us. This does not in any way mean that the Son is not God too. As you said, it only means that He is not the Father.

That is why I brought up the rest of the chapter. In verses 8-12, I can't begin to see how it is not clear that although the Son is not the Father, He is quite completely God just as the Father is too.

A lot of different interpretations of the trinity these days....But let's go with the version you've presented - The father and son are not two separate beings. They are the same being but separate persons.

I don't still understand why the Bible will imply 2 beings when talking about the father and son by saying: "He (son) is the exact representation of his (father) very being."

According to modern dictionaries every human creature is a human being because he exists. Every person is a being because he exists. The word "being" simply means "to be in existence." Based on this I cannot see how the son and the father can be 2 persons but one being.

This is my major objection to Trinitarianism. It depends on a distinction between “person” and “being” that is not articulated in Scripture.
Also i believe that one of the biggest problems with the orthodox doctrine of Christ is that it is unintelligible and results in a person who is both A and non-A at the same time.

We are told that the incarnate Christ was/is both “fully God” and “fully man”. As one who is “fully God” he is said to be omniscient, all-powerful, and omnipresent, yet as one who is “fully man” he would have to be limited in knowledge, power, and location. To say that a person can have all of these attributes at the same time is not just to utter something unintelligible, it is to affirm that which would normally be considered impossible. The sentence “Jesus is all-knowing yet limited in knowledge” appears to have the same logical content as the sentence “Bob is a murderer who’s never killed anyone” or “Joe is a football player who’s never played football.”

Non-Trinitarians such as myself and others don’t necessarily reject the idea of believing in something that one might call “mysterious” but we have a problem believing in that which is logically impossible. Well, reason is part of the image of God that he stamped upon us to enable us to determine what is true and what is not true, and I can’t imagine why we’d discard that attribute when asking the most important question of all: Who/what is God?

Use KJV Bible

The Trinity is a mystery...
It's the holy spirit that can open your heart to understand
Mathematically speaking... 1+1+1=1 and 3+3+3=3
God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit

11thGoldTREE:
The Trinity is a mystery...
It's the holy spirit that can open your heart to understand
Mathematically speaking... 1+1+1=1 and 3+3+3=3
God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit

It really is a mystery because it is illogical.

1cor 14:33 tells us: "God is not a God of disorder..."

It cannot be that his very identity will be mysterious to his children.

Jesus also taught complicated bible truths in simple terms and all were able to understand. could he also not have simplified the trinity to our understanding? Yet, in a prayer this is what he said about God's identity: "Father....this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." - John 17:1-3

BIBLESPEAKS:

It really is a mystery because it is illogical.
Yet this is what he said about God's identity in a prayer: "Father....this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." - John 17:1-3

are you telling me ... The addition 1+1+1=1 and 3+3+3=3 is wrong ¿¿
Be very careful with the things of the spirit. God reveals things to us after it has happened and in fact, we drink tea with God. Mind you, you cannot understand the things of the spirit.

BIBLESPEAKS:


A lot of different interpretations of the trinity these days....But let's go with the version you've presented - The father and son are not two separate beings. They are the same being but separate persons.

I don't still understand why the Bible will imply 2 beings when talking about the father and son by saying: "He (son) is the exact representation of his (father) very being."

According to modern dictionaries every human creature is a human being because he exists. Every person is a being because he exists. The word "being" simply means "to be in existence." Based on this I cannot see how the son and the father can be 2 persons but one being.

This is my major objection to Trinitarianism. It depends on a distinction between “person” and “being” that is not articulated in Scripture.
Also i believe that one of the biggest problems with the orthodox doctrine of Christ is that it is unintelligible and results in a person who is both A and non-A at the same time.

We are told that the incarnate Christ was/is both “fully God” and “fully man”. As one who is “fully God” he is said to be omniscient, all-powerful, and omnipresent, yet as one who is “fully man” he would have to be limited in knowledge, power, and location. To say that a person can have all of these attributes at the same time is not just to utter something unintelligible, it is to affirm that which would normally be considered impossible. The sentence “Jesus is all-knowing yet limited in knowledge” appears to have the same logical content as the sentence “Bob is a murderer who’s never killed anyone” or “Joe is a football player who’s never played football.”

Non-Trinitarians such as myself and others don’t necessarily reject the idea of believing in something that one might call “mysterious” but we have a problem believing in that which is logically impossible. Well, reason is part of the image of God that he stamped upon us to enable us to determine what is true and what is not true, and I can’t imagine why we’d discard that attribute when asking the most important question of all: Who/what is God?

"Trinity" is only a word we use to label a concept that you find when you read the Bible, it isn't some kind of ideological or philosophical construct that needs to be interpreted. In a sense, you can say that it is an interpretation of the Bible. So, when you say that there are "a lot of different interpretations of the trinity these days," you demonstrate a very poor understanding of the mechanics at play here.

As for what the Bible is implying, your own words are your answer. It is you who claim that the Bible implies something. It does not actually say any such thing. You are merely interpreting it that way. Whether your interpretation is accurate remains to be seen. As for the quote, as I already said, it is clear that Hebrews sees the Father and the Son as two separate Persons. It is also rather obvious that Hebrews reports that the Father regards the Son as God. And we know that God is One, not two, from elsewhere in the Bible. Therefore, we must conclude that Hebrews teaches that Father and Son, though separate Persons, are one God and, therefore, One in essence, since God is One.

As for your appeal to modern dictionaries, I'm not sure that any dictionary makes such an argument, but you are right about the fact that a human person is a single being alone. Multiple human persons do not become one being. That is common sense. But it is also common sense that human beings and other creatures are most certainly not God. For one thing, God is not "a" being. God is Being or Existence itself. That is what His Name YHVH or YHWH means. He is the "IS". Thus, He cannot be a multiple. He is the Infinite One. And in the One Infinite, there are Three Persons, according to the Bible. That there are multiple Persons Who are One in essence is obviously not in the experience of creatures, but that is not a logical problem. It is perfectly logical to expect God Who is Existence itself to be fundamentally different from the things which He made to exist.

As for a Scriptural distinction between "person" and "being," rest assured that the Bible does teach both that there is one God and that there are multiple Persons Who are each God. I already showed you this in the Hebrews 1:8-12 reference. This is how the Scriptures teach this:

In Deuteronomy 6:4, the Scripture says:

[4]"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!
Deuteronomy 6:4 NASB

So, we know that there is only one God.

In John 20:17, the Scripture says:

[17]Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
John 20:17 NASB

And in John 8:54, it also says:

[54]Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
John 8:54 NASB

So, we know that the Father is God.

In Hebrews 1:6, 8-12, the Scripture says again:

[6]And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
[8]But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
[9]"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions."
[10]And, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[11]They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment,
[12]And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."
Hebrews 1:6,8-12 NASB

So, we know that the Son is God too.

And in 2 Corinthians 3:17, the Scriptures says as well:

[17]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17 NASB

Since the Greek word κύριος, which is translated "Lord" here, is used to translate the Tetragrammaton, that is, the Name YHVH/YHWH, in the New Testament, we know from here that the Holy Spirit is God too.

The logical conclusion then is that although there is One God alone, there are Three Persons identified as God in the Bible.

As to whether they are separate, the Scripture says:

[16]I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
[17]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:16-17 NASB

So, we know that the Scripture teaches that there are three separate Persons Who each are fully God in their Own Right but Who together are the One God.

This teaching is what is dubbed the Doctrine of the Trinity.

As for intelligibility, that is really not the Bible's problem. Those who submit to the Bible's authority come to understand it just fine. The problem is when one comes to the Bible to dictate to it what it may or may not say. That is actually the difference between me and you here. I go to the Bible to learn how to think and how things must be understood, but it seems obvious to me that you go to the Bible with a list of demands that it must meet so that it will be believed by you. It is intelligible to me that God is different from me, and from other creatures. I don't mind that. It doesn't bother, concern, or worry me. I'm happy being a lowly creature who is incapable of existing as God does. So, I accept the loftiness of His Existence as fundamentally different from mine, and I worship Him for it.

As for the law of non-contradiction, you misunderstand the issue of A and not-A. "Not-A" does not mean "anything apart from A." It is a philosophical construct used to say "opposite to A." That is, although blue is "not-green," in a colloquial manner of speaking, in philosophy, blue is not "not-green," because green is not opposite to blue. They are only different colors, not opposite phenomena or ideas. An example of an A/Not-A pair would be light/darkness. Another would be good/evil. Yet another would be be/not-be OR exists/does-not-exist.

So, the question is whether human nature is opposite to Divine nature. I think the answer is obviously no. The opposite of Omnipresence, the characteristic of being unlimited by space, for example, is not limitation by space. Localization of presence is a matter of degree, not contrast. The opposite of being able to exist everywhere at once is total absence from anywhere at all. That is, the opposite to Omnipresence is complete inexistence. Likewise, the opposite to Omniscience is not limited knowledge, it is total ignorance. And so on.

So, there is no contradiction between the Divine Nature and the Human. The human one is merely a far inferior one to the Divine one. Incidentally, that was the point of the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus:

[3]Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
[4]do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
[5]Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
[6]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7]but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
[8]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
[9]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
[10]so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[11]and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:3-11 NASB

That is, the great God loved us enough to humble Himself and become a mere human like us so that He could suffer death - an ignobility to which He was never susceptible - for us so that we could be saved from eternal punishment for our sins. That is a huge deal. This is what Paul says here that we should try to model after. We are to love others enough to humble ourselves too to look out for them, just like the Lord Jesus did for us. Of course, none of us can hope to do what He did, but you get the idea.

In other words, to become Man does not negate Deity, but it would require the "voiding" or "emptying" of Deity that the Lord Jesus had to do to suffer for us. See verse 7 above. Because Deity is so much greater and so much better than Humanity, the Lord Jesus had to impose something theologically called kenosis upon Himself, or else He would never have been able to live like a human or die like one. In fact, the term is derived from the Greek that is translated "emptied" in verse 7 above.

So, this is not a contradiction like "Bob is a murderer who has never killed anyone." Rather it is of the same logical category as "The King dressed up like a peasant and went to live in a village as a poor farmer for a season." It is both possible and logical. The king would simply refuse to use his privileges and rights as a king in order to pull it off. Being a peasant for a while is not opposite to being the king, although obviously both are not the same.

Edited.

*

Ihedinobi3:

"

@1), it is clear that Hebrews sees the Father and the Son as two separate Persons. It is also rather obvious that Hebrews reports that the Father regards the Son as God. And we know that God is One, not two, from elsewhere in the Bible. Therefore, we must conclude that Hebrews teaches that Father and Son, though separate Persons, are one God and, therefore, one Being, since God is One.



@2)

For one thing, God is not "a" being. God is Being or Existence itself. That is what His Name YHVH or YHWH means. He is the "IS". Thus, He cannot be a multiple. He is the Infinite One. And in the One Infinite, there are Three Persons, according to the Bible. That there are multiple Persons in One single Infinite Being is obviously not in the experience of creatures,


@3)
there is one God and that there are multiple Persons Who are each God.


@4)
In John 20:17, the Scripture says:

[17]Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
John 20:17 NASB

And in John 8:54, it also says:

[54]Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
John 8:54 NASB
So, we know that the Father is God.



**** Those who submit to the Bible's authority come to understand it just fine. The problem is when one comes to the Bible to dictate to it what it may or may not say.


@5 (I)

Multiple human persons do not become one being. That is common sense. But it is also common sense that human beings and other creatures are most certainly not God.

@5 (ii)

that God is different from me, and from other creatures. I don't mind that. It doesn't bother, concern, or worry me. I'm happy being a lowly creature who is incapable of existing as God does.


@6)
So, the question is whether human nature is opposite to Divine nature. I think the answer is obviously no.
So, there is no contradiction between the Divine Nature and the Human. The human one is merely a far inferior one to the Divine one.


@7).
That is, the great God loved us enough to humble Himself and become a mere human like us so that He could suffer death -

"Those who submit to the Bible's authority come to understand it just fine. The problem is when one comes to the Bible to dictate to it what it may or may not say".


@1,@2 and @3, Ihedinobi, says "Father and Son are two separate Persons" therefore separate entities = separate Gods, not one God because to quote 'Ihedinobi',
"YHWH, Thus, He cannot be a multiple. He is the Infinite One",
In plain, simple English, YHWH the "Infinite One " no be subset of three oooo!!! ( YHWH Most High God, Psalms 83:18, is Infinite).
No other "God" reach YHWH level.

@4)
In heaven and earth, Jesus Christ called YHWH "our God", John8:54. 20:17.
Ihedinobi, show us from your Bible where YHWH called Jesus "our God"...
@Hebrews1:9, who is that "God,your God"?
Did God anoint God?

*@5) and @6), Ihedinobi CONTRADICTS himself.
This man admits he's "incapable of existing as God does." (in Divine nature).
"So, the question is whether human nature is opposite to Divine nature. I think the answer is obviously no."
Ihedinobi is a LIAR.

@7, John 6:46. 5:37. 1:18."No man has seen God in the flesh at any time."
Why is 'Ihedinobi' making Jesus Christ a LIAR?
God NEVER died for man or you mean Jesus Christ lied at John 3:16 and 1John 4:14?

@Biblespeaks I don't know why this is open to arguments. It's been established in Hebrews 1 that the Father himself called Jesus God- Hebrews 1vs 8.Isaiah 9:6 calls Him mighty God. So, the deity of Jesus Christ should not be debated. Also, the concept of Jesus being called a son should be understood. Son, as it applies to Christ, does not mean "pikin " . The Greek word translated son is uihos. It means someone/ something that has the same nature or substance as the other.

madegreatbygrace:
@Biblespeaks I don't know why this is open to arguments. It's been established in Hebrews 1 that the Father himself called Jesus God- Hebrews 1vs 8.Isaiah 9:6 calls Him mighty God. So, the deity of Jesus Christ should not be debated. Also, the concept of Jesus being called a son should be understood. Son, as it applies to Christ, does not mean "pikin " . The Greek word translated son is uihos. It means someone/ something that has the same nature or substance as the other.

Anyone you call "my Father" or "Father", you have acknowledge that the status /rank / position of that Entity is Superior to yours.

You are the pikin of your biological Father , you both have human nature, his rank/ status pass your own? Yes !
Whoever is your Father, Godfather, Father in the lord, whatever "Father", that person level pass your own.
YHWH pass Jesus Christ level in heaven and earth.
Read ,study and meditate on Rev 1:5,6. Rev3:2,5. John20:17. John 17:3.
Hebrew 1:1-3,9 squash the lie attached to Hebrew 1:8.
No dull yourself.

11thGoldTREE:
The Trinity is a mystery...
It's the holy spirit that can open your heart to understand
Mathematically speaking... 1+1+1=1 and 3+3+3=3
God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit

Trinity is satanic,man made scam.

John17:3 YHWH is the only true God, says Jesus. Psalms 83:18 (ASV)

what did Thomas say in John20:28?
,is it the same thing Jesus Christ is saying in Rev 3:2,5& John20:17 about his own God ?
Yes !!!!!!!

Ihedinobi3:

Hi. Your profile suggests that your are a Jehovah's Witness, so you are almost certainly just looking for an argument to prove that your position that Jesus Christ is not God is true.

I think that such a conversation would be a waste of time and energy, but in the event that you may be willing to consider that your position may be wrong, and also for the sake of other readers, I will answer you.

To begin, the three verses say that God the Father Who once communicated to human beings through human intermediaries called prophets has now given us His Last Word, so to speak, through His Son Who is such a perfect representation of Him as to seal up all His Communication to man.

When this Son of His had fulfilled His Mission to purify human beings from their sins, He was received back into Heaven to sit down at the Father's Right Hand.

Now, I would like to add a bit more of that chapter for useful context:

[6]And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
[7]And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire."
[8]But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
[9]"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions."
[10]And, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[11]They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment,
[12]And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."
Hebrews 1:6-12 NASB

As you can see, the angels are commanded by the Father to worship the Son (v.6). Since only God must be worshipped, this is a clear Scriptural witness to the Deity of the Son.

You can also see that the Son is being contrasted with the angels here (vv.7-8 ), so that it makes no sense to think that He is or was ever one of them.

You should also note that from verses 8 to 12, God the Father Who is the Subject of Hebrews 1 is addressing the Son as God and speaking of His timelessness and eternity as well as His absolute superiority to all the created universe.

These things are only a drop in the bucket of staggering Scriptural evidence of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Jesus is the mediator between man and God. So, he can't at the same time be God. Shikena!

OnPointMan:
Jesus is the mediator between man and God. So, he can't at the same time be God. Shikena!

Au contraire - that is exactly what He needs to be! Can a being less than God, lay hold of God? Whilst being a man makes Him perfectly equipped to understand our passions and intercede on our behalf.

Job 9:33 - Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both.

The infinite God presenting in different forms may well be hard to grasp, but it shouldn't be a problem and, we shouldn't even seek to limit Him to what has been revealed. He is not like us, unconstrained by notions of time or dimensionality. He did what we could not do, not limited by form or ego.


TV

Ihedinobi3:

Hi. Your profile suggests that your are a Jehovah's Witness, so you are almost certainly just looking for an argument to prove that your position that Jesus Christ is not God is true.

I think that such a conversation would be a waste of time and energy, but in the event that you may be willing to consider that your position may be wrong, and also for the sake of other readers, I will answer you.

To begin, the three verses say that God the Father Who once communicated to human beings through human intermediaries called prophets has now given us His Last Word, so to speak, through His Son Who is such a perfect representation of Him as to seal up all His Communication to man.

When this Son of His had fulfilled His Mission to purify human beings from their sins, He was received back into Heaven to sit down at the Father's Right Hand.

Now, I would like to add a bit more of that chapter for useful context:

[6]And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
[7]And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire."
[8]But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
[9]"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions."
[10]And, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[11]They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment,
[12]And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."
Hebrews 1:6-12 NASB

As you can see, the angels are commanded by the Father to worship the Son (v.6). Since only God must be worshipped, this is a clear Scriptural witness to the Deity of the Son.

You can also see that the Son is being contrasted with the angels here (vv.7-8 ), so that it makes no sense to think that He is or was ever one of them.

You should also note that from verses 8 to 12, God the Father Who is the Subject of Hebrews 1 is addressing the Son as God and speaking of His timelessness and eternity as well as His absolute superiority to all the created universe.

These things are only a drop in the bucket of staggering Scriptural evidence of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

You have answered him well.
The OP need to explain why "the Son" is called SON since, the Son is neither Human nor Angel. He should note the fact that God doesn't have a Wife.

If the Son is the Word and the Word was in the beginning and the Word made everything, who then is the Son?

@ Janosky. Oh, I see. You err!It's because the dictionary meaning of Father is different from the biblical meaning. Father in this case means "source". This implies that the life of Jesus when He walked the earth has its source from the Father. It's as simple as that.

Also understand this. The Jesus of the four gospel is different from the Jesus of the epistles. The Jesus of the gospels is the anointed one, who through descent, set aside His rights and privileges, for the purpose of redemption. The Jesus of the epistles is the exalted, glorified and resurrected Christ. The same Spirit, but different offices. As a point of emphasis, in the gospels, He's referred to as Jesus Christ but in the epistles He's referred to as Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ our Lord. The Jesus of the gospels was not all- knowing but the resurrected Christ is omniscient.This is supported by Philippians 2: 5 -11.

OnPointMan:


Jesus is the mediator between man and God. So, he can't at the same time be God. Shikena!

I would you in a layman language explain what this verse is staying.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

TV01:
Au contraire - that is exactly what He needs to be! Can a being less than God, lay hold of God? Whilst being a man makes Him perfectly equipped to understand our passions and intercede on our behalf.

Job 9:33 - Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both.

The infinite God presenting in different forms may well be hard to grasp, but it shouldn't be a problem and, we shouldn't even seek to limit Him to what has been revealed. He is not like us, unconstrained by notions of time or dimensionality. He did what we could not do, not limited by form or ego.


TV

I'm reading this book 'True Christianity', where Trinity is so simplified.

uboma:
The Trinity is not a biblical teaching.

How?

BIBLESPEAKS:


It really is a mystery because it is illogical.

1cor 14:33 tells us: "God is not a God of disorder..."

It cannot be that his very identity will be mysterious to his children.

Jesus also taught complicated bible truths in simple terms and all were able to understand. could he also not have simplified the trinity to our understanding? Yet, in a prayer this is what he said about God's identity: "Father....this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." - John 17:1-3

Why do you think that the Truths of the Bible were complicated that needed the Lord to teach them in simple terms for us to understand?

This is the same complexities shrouding the Trinity that you consider disordered hence reject.

Let me explain something to you. people like the JW who do not subscribe to the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit always think physically (as in with their eyes) when they read the Word or reflect on it. They cannot see beyond what they see literary, hence portray God in their physical senses.
But, people who read and reflect on the Word of God Spiritually and think about God only on the basis of His essence think Spiritually. These class think of God base on His Essential attributes like omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, eternity, love, wisdom, mercy, grace, and so on.

They also acknowledge His emanating attributes from His divine essence, which
are the functions of creating, conserving, redeeming, saving, enlightening, guiding and instructing.
If we read the Old Testament, we see all these Attributes in YHWH, in the New Testament, we see them in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit.

All who think about God on the basis of how he is portrayed by the literal presentation of the Bible, come up with three gods, because they say, ‘One God (The Father) is the Creator and Preserver, the second (The Son) is the Redeemer and Savior, and the third (The Holy Ghost) is the Enlightener and Instructor.’


On the other hand, all who think about
God on the basis of his essence come up with one God, because they say, ‘God created us. God also redeems us and saves us, and he also enlightens and instructs us.’
“This is why people who think about the divine Trinity on the basis of how it is portrayed, (literary) and therefore think physically, cannot help coming up with three gods instead of one, based on the images in their physical kind of thinking. Nevertheless, contrary to their own thinking.

It'll help you if you can explain why Jesus whom you consider to be another Essence from YHWH, took all the divine Attributes of YHWH, like Father, Almighty, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, infinite, eternal, Light, Life, Love, Wisdom, Mercy, Conqueror, Alpha, Omega, Beginning and the End, Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Just Judge, Judgement. King of kings, Lord of lords etc.

When you are able to unravel these, you'd then know who Jesus truly is, but until then, you'd remain physical, seeing with your eyes not with your mind.

11thGoldTREE:
are you telling me ... The addition 1+1+1=1 and 3+3+3=3 is wrong ¿¿
Be very careful with the things of the spirit. God reveals things to us after it has happened and in fact, we drink tea with God. Mind you, you cannot understand the things of the spirit.

Perfect explanation, only sinners can't understand because they lack Holy Ghost!
Ali and the angel

Anas09:

Why do you think that the Truths of the Bible were complicated that needed the Lord to teach them in simple terms for us to understand?

This is the same complexities shrouding the Trinity that you consider disordered hence reject.

Let me explain something to you. people like the JW who do not subscribe to the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit always think physically (as in with their eyes) when they read the Word or reflect on it. They cannot see beyond what they see literary, hence portray God in their physical senses.
But, people who read and reflect on the Word of God Spiritually and think about God only on the basis of His essence think Spiritually. These class think of God base on His Essential attributes like omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, eternity, love, wisdom, mercy, grace, and so on.

They also acknowledge His emanating attributes from His divine essence, which
are the functions of creating, conserving, redeeming, saving, enlightening, guiding and instructing.
If we read the Old Testament, we see all these Attributes in YHWH, in the New Testament, we see them in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit.

All who think about God on the basis of how he is portrayed by the literal presentation of the Bible, come up with three gods, because they say, ‘One God (The Father) is the Creator and Preserver, the second (The Son) is the Redeemer and Savior, and the third (The Holy Ghost) is the Enlightener and Instructor.’


On the other hand, all who think about
God on the basis of his essence come up with one God, because they say, ‘God created us. God also redeems us and saves us, and he also enlightens and instructs us.’
“This is why people who think about the divine Trinity on the basis of how it is portrayed, (literary) and therefore think physically, cannot help coming up with three gods instead of one, based on the images in their physical kind of thinking. Nevertheless, contrary to their own thinking.

It'll help you if you can explain why Jesus whom you consider to be another Essence from YHWH, took all the divine Attributes of YHWH, like Father, Almighty, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, infinite, eternal, Light, Life, Love, Wisdom, Mercy, Conqueror, Alpha, Omega, Beginning and the End, Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Just Judge, Judgement. King of kings, Lord of lords etc.

When you are able to unravel these, you'd then know who Jesus truly is, but until then, you'd remain physical, seeing with your eyes not with your mind.

@bolded

I guess that's why only Jehovah's Witnesses out of all religions claiming Christians could Physically prove to observers the efficiency of Jesus' prayers!

Jesus prayed to Someone that his TRUE followers be united as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers {John 17:20-23} and all the Christians were doing so in the spirit therefore nobody can see it happening in there midst because they're done SPIRITUALLY!

Whereas Jehovah's Witnesses who are seeing the scriptures PHYSICALLY were able to Physically PRACTICALISE it for everyone to SEE! Matthew 5:14-16

You garrit Sir , you fucking garrit!

Maximus69:


@bolded

I guess that's why only Jehovah's Witnesses out of all religions claiming Christians could Physically prove to observers the efficiency of Jesus' prayers!

Jesus prayed to Someone that his TRUE followers be united as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers {John 17:20-23} and all the Christians were doing so in the spirit therefore nobody can see it happening in there midst because they're done SPIRITUALLY!

Whereas Jehovah's Witnesses who are seeing the scriptures PHYSICALLY were able to Physically PRACTICALISE it for everyone to SEE! Matthew 5:14-16

You garrit Sir , you fucking garrit!

I knew the reality of what I wrote will fly over you as always.

Can we, you and I step by step analyze the Lord's prayer?

You go first. Verse by verse.

Anas09:

I knew the reality of what I wrote will fly over you as always.
Can we, you and I step by step analyze the Lord's prayer?
You go first. Verse by verse.

Jesus admonished his TRUE followers NOT to waste precious times arguing with unbelievers Sir. Matthew 10:12-13

And i strongly believe that you're a born again Christian that completely submitted to whatever God's son says. John 3:16

So why not just help me by presenting the Benefits of being a Christian {Matthew 19:27} as analysed by Jesus himself and leave the rest to me! Mark 10:29-30

God bless you Sir!

Maximus69:

I guess that's why only Jehovah's Witnesses out of all religions claiming Christians could Physically prove to observers the efficiency of Jesus' prayers!

You are making my point for me. There's nothing physical about the Lord's prayer. And, anyone who tries to make it carnal, will lose all the underlying power in it.

Maximus69:

Jesus prayed to Someone that his TRUE followers be united as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers {John 17:20-23} and all the Christians were doing so in the spirit therefore nobody can see it happening in there midst because they're done SPIRITUALLY!

Yes, He did. And until you drop your literal portrayal of how the literal Bible present Him to be, you can never see that the same Bible calls Him God.
Why don't you at least explain why Jesus took all the attributes of YHWH?

Maximus69:

Whereas Jehovah's Witnesses who are seeing the scriptures PHYSICALLY were able to Physically PRACTICALISE it for everyone to SEE! Matthew 5:14-16

Who are the everyone? And what are you practicalising? lolzzzzz.

Maximus69:


Jesus admonished his TRUE followers NOT to waste precious times arguing with unbelievers [/b]Sir. Matthew 10:12-13

And i strongly believe that you're a born again Christian that completely submitted to whatever God's son says. John 3:16

[[b]So why not just help me by presenting the [b]Benefits of being a Christian[/b] {Matthew 19:27} as analysed by Jesus himself and leave the rest to me! Mark 10:29-30

God bless you Sir!

@bolded. But that is what JW do from inception. From when did you stop arguing?

Besides, I didn't say lets argue, I said, let's analyze (as in discourse) the prayer. While you are at it, I won't interject until you're done.

Since you say its efficacy or abi na efficiency is seen or derived in its physical portrayal. Let's do it.

@Second bolded.
One after the other. You brought in the Lord's prayer, I didn't. All I'm doing now is take you up on your leads. Before we go to rhe benefitz of being a believer, let's analyze the Lord's prayer you brought up first

You don't want to argue abt the Lord's prayer but wants to argue the Benefits of being a believer. Lolzzzzz. See your JW tactics? Wen you are cornered you play tricks.

Anas09:

You are making my point for me. There's nothing physical about the Lord's prayer. And, anyone who tries to make it carnal, will lose all the underlying power in it.
Yes, He did. And until you drop your literal portrayal of how the literal Bible present Him to be, you can never see that the same Bible calls Him God.
Why don't you at least explain why Jesus took all the attributes of YHWH?
Who are the everyone? And what are you practicalising? lolzzzzz.

@bolded

I think you're at least part of them Sir, because i've not come across any other religious group receiving attention on social media like JWs!

It's either they committed this or that, and the funniest part of it is that there's no religious organization that can stand out to say "we're completely blameless with regards to the accusations levelled against the Jehovah's Witnesses"

So why focusing on JWs if not that all eyes are on this one and only unique group that's totally different from them all?

Anas09:

@bolded. But that is what JW do from inception. From when did you stop arguing?

Besides, I didn't say lets argue, I said, let's analyze (as in discourse) the prayer. While you are at it, I won't interject until you're done.

Since you say its efficacy or abi na efficiency is seen or derived in its physical portrayal. Let's do it.

@Second bolded.
One after the other. You brought in the Lord's prayer, I didn't. All I'm doing now is take you up on your leads. Before we go to rhe benefitz of being a believer, let's analyze the Lord's prayer you brought up first

You don't want to argue abt the Lord's prayer but wants to argue the Benefits of being a believer. Lolzzzzz. See your JW tactics? Wen you are cornered you play tricks.

The OP never mentioned the name of any group, he only presented his opinion on the topic, and some of you started pointing to the same religious that might not even be noticeable if not brought to light! I think something is unique about this group but if you're saying they're false fine!

But Jesus prayed {John 17:20-23} and i believe his prayers must have been answered by someone up there.

Please Sir, just tell me the benefits that needs to be observe in order to be certain that what Jesus prayed for is happening amongst so and so group and leave the rest to me!