prolog3111:
[s]Thanks for this comment, I believe every unsuspecting person who read this comment now understands how dumb you are and the low self esteem that drives you. Imagine a guy looking at my watch and telling me to prove to the police that I didn't take it from his home ? Or imagine a police man locking me up until I prove that I have never committed a crime. This is how dumb you are.[/s] Don't mention me anymore, I can't continue talking to dumb people.

As always, I'm glad I frustrated your attempt to spin and distort history.

Have a frustrated weekend!

prolog3111:
you've got to be kidding me, look, I get that you are a Yoruba. But how logical is it for you to be asking a yoruba guy questions about Benin bronze while you could actually ask the museum or an actual Edo ? What is it with you people's constant quest for a Yoruba spin on Benin history?

it is called inferiority complex. The Yoruba's after seeing how great Benin kingdom was, even a country was name after it now wants to claim the glory by saying that stupid piece of land called ile ife was controlling benin.

Take note that the yorubas have no kingdom or empire whatsoever but only a rufugee camp in oyo that they named an empire

Lol the Yoruba's knowing they can never be as great or make something as great as the Benin kingdom have started doing everything to steal Benin glory.

That's how they wanted to lie that, it was bight of Oyo and not bight of Benin, lol very pathetic people.

This one is here claiming Benin was under osun, chai we don't suffer

OYO EMPIRE...A YORUBA KINGDOM CREATED ON PAGES OF YORUBA HISTORIANS TEXTBOOKS. AMIDST, Contradictions and false claims

(1). Their story of kingship began with Edo prince and the Benin recorded History.

(2). Ayayi crawder said, little were know about yoruba existence, meaning they were not part of Nigeria of today boarder or were in small settlement close to dahomy. yoruba are half muslims and those with African traditions copied or got them from Benin civilization. I doubt if they not immigrants from dahomy mix with Benins or other fulani-hausa from Niger . Bishop Samuel Adjayi Crowther (c. 1809 – 31 December 1891) Was the first African Anglican bishop in Nigeria. Born in Osogun (in today's Iseyin Local Government, Oyo State, Nigeria). His grandson was Herbert Macaulay

(3). Yoruba have dublicity of kingship with the process highly politized to being traditional.A system they try copy from Benin but can't get it real like the Benin Kingdom. Edo Obaship is one of the most revered institutions in the world because of the way it has sustained its awesome prestige with strict and meticulous attention to ancient traditions of valour, discipline and integrity. Edo chieftaincy titles cannot be bought or conferred on non-indigenes or frivolously. Every Edo chief performs a peculiarly sacred duty and responsibility to the people of Edo. It does not make sense, therefore, to think that a people who would not and have never conferred their chieftaincy titles on non-indigenes, would voluntarily invite, accept, or surrender to non-indigenes as their kings. Due to celestial origins, the Edo monarch cannot eat out and cannot be diverted from full time palace duties to hustle for contracts.

(4).

Most of today yoruba religion are Benin Origin, Olokun, Ogun, Iha oguega(ifa), oronmila, Esago(shango), Ayelala etc. Many Benin traditions and spirituality are stillfully documented by yorubas in high places as YORUBA? (Never mind the Edo man's christian mindset quickly dening Edo have niothing to do with African traditional religion, agreeing they are foriegn to Edoland...LIE).
Although the Great Edo (Benin) Kingdom were not major participants in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, because the Obas (Kings) believed that their subjects were too valuable to sell away, and their noblemen had need of war captives on their own farms, the influence of Edo religion and medicine has still been substantial upon the people of the Americas.

According to Mason (1996), it has been widely accepted that Olokun (god of the sea) worship originated with the Edo and spread to the Yoruba (p.2). In fact, the most prominent part of Edo cultural traditions that has made its mark in the New World is Olokun worship. Olokun (god of the Waters) worship originated from Urhonigbe and then became prominent at Ughoton around the Ethiope (Olokun) River. The priesthood and rituals were firmly established at the time. Some of the possible points of contact happened early. During the Ogiso Period, trade with the Yoruba and Igbos was quite extensive. Olokun worship may have spread to those areas through traders. Prior to the Oba Period,Ekaladerhan Izoduwa was initiated into Olokun as a chief Priest while he stayed at Ughoton, before his moving westward with his followers to establish Ilefe (Ero,1999,p.108-109).

Once he arrived, Ekaladerhan Izoduwa brought Edo traditions to those areas and was a King of his new community called Ilefe, which could be what yoruba call IFE. . From Ekaladerhan Izoduwa’s loins, the Yoruba dynasties may have began. However, it is certain that Olokun is an Edo divinity whose worship spread to the outlying Yoruba areas. During the trans-Atlantic slave trade, slave raids were launched upon Yoruba and Ibo territories. Europeans were able to obtain some of the greatest amounts of West Africans from both Yoruba and Ibo land (Crosby,1992, p.136). In the 18th century in Iboland at Isseke, slave raiders took a famous Edo subject named Olaudah Equiano, who later wrote about the encounter. Olaudah traveled to the New World and then to England, learned to read and write English, and shared his religious and cultural experiences.

Many Edo traditions were directly and indirectly incorporated into the New World through its far reaching colonies. The Edo Kingdom extended from the boundary with Oyo in the north (Otun) to the Atlantic in the south, beyond Asaba to River Niger, and upto Eko (Lagos) in the west. Both Edo religion and medicine had been taken to those domains, following traditional practices originating in Edo land.

(5). Benin ruled over what today known as Yorubaland, IFE, EKITI, LAGOS, OGUN, OWO, ONDO ETC


(6). Benin founded lagos and ruled lagos: The rights of who own Lagos are clear Lagos was a Benin town with a Benin Oba who paid tribute to the Oba of Benin indeed his chiefs were the descendants of noble Benin families. The Benin empire ran Lagos for over 400 years before the colonial powers took over.

Though were some migrant yoruba from togo during british presence in lagos, but they formed not the rulers of the town but the subjects of the Oba just like we find in the United Kingdom today where people are subjects of the queen of England and not citizens. I would explain citizenship rights to you later.



(7). Benin first to meet Europeans

(. "Oba" adopted from Benin not the other way round as many made to believe. There is no king of Yoruba's people. and if there is, what is de name of his title? and how many Yoruba prominent traditional leader/ruler carried the title Oba? since when? if Yoruba called king Oba doesn't mean will derived our king name (N'Oba) from them. Everyone has a name for king in the their native language/tongue. The Oba of Lagos is Eleko of Eko not Oba, the British change it to Oba. the Origin of word "oba" is Benin

(9). They never conquered any territory but rather struggle with their neighbours before and after the first encounter with Europeans looking for slave hunting.

(10). "Edo" have no relative with the word Yoruba. Words like Eko,Idu Ganran,Yaba,Oshodi,Osa,Eti-Osa,idu-magbo,Idu-mota have no Yoruba meaning but Edo

(11). Note history is subject to scientific diagnosis and many historic writtings in the past about Benin yoruba have been proved by archaeologies and scientist as erroneous and false.

(12). Many Yoruba being those in the forfront of Nigeria history writters,used in Nigeria institutions had the benefit of making their yoruba look leading culture and history for nigerians

(13). Yorubas all along paddling lies in Nigeria, US and British universities. deceivng Africans with grammar and academic titles. They confuse other external scholars about the true realities of African history.. buy their lies into African America book, which Benin in the Palace have no ideal.

(14). Yoruba had and did the highest slave rading in their togo-oyo region stretched to lagos during slave trade. see http://ihuanedo.ning.com/forum/topics/yoruba-enslavement-of-african

(15) Yoruba never colonise Benin but Benin colonize Yoruba



(16) Yoruba is not in anyway related to Igbo ancestral history

(17) Yoruba not in anyway related to itsekiri history. Their could be later migrant during the European expliotation and commerce but not related to the itsekiri ancestral lineage. Never mind all the title of "Olu" in the region, its all inventions

(18) Bishop Ajayi crowder and Obafemi Awolowo made Yoruba known today as an ethnic group in NIgeria

(19) How can an Empire be inside an Empire? Many so called yoruba territories of today never existed in the past but invented and stillfully documented into their borrowed history

(20) Yoruba copied Benin-Edo history, twisted them and publish as Yoruba History. Most of their books and publications are mere opinions of the writers inside their rooms without a singgle scientific research or a visit to Ancient Benin for true archaeological discovery. Covered up with self hate, jealousy and envy of the Great Benin, bias and leftish in many of their so called Nigerian history.
(21) If cameroon was inside Nigeria today , Yoruba would have as well say they are their ancestors..
(22) Many Yorubas in Lagos today came as migrant workers for British companies and construction project. that why you have alot of their fotos with whites. Britain also use them as colonial officers.

(23) Before Britain or before the punitive expedition of 1897, Yoruba have no were to be found as recognized major ethnic group in lagos but Edos.

(24) Where is Yoruba ancient flag or before 1897? Yoruba had no flag but Benin Yes.
(25) Their loyalty to slave masters, British merchant gave them the huge presence in lagos, Americas and England
(26) The word Yoruba has it's roots in Yoruba.The fulani used to call the Oyo people Yoruba.There was no really united Yoruba nation till awolowo came with a cooked up Oduduwa myth with the intention of uniting them under them with advent of Egbe omo Oduduwa.yorubas that came to the Americas were identified as lucumi which is corrupted from olukumi.
.
(27) The Ooni of Ife,the Alake of Abeokuta ( Egba), the Olubadan of Ibadan,the Oba of Oshogbo, the Deji of Akure,the Oba of Lagos,the Ugbo of Ugboland,the Owu of Owo etc have no historical records that they were ever ruled by an empire with such name. Rather,the Oba of Lagos,the Deji of Akure and all the traditional rulers in present day ondo and Ekiti states have indubitable record that they were once part of the old Benin empire.
(28) The capital of the fathom Oyo empire is alleged to be Oyo-Ile. This is a community that is not as big as Uromi township. It is smaller than many headquarters of south western city states currently existing. It is not as big as Eyaen in Benin city. How come the capital of such great empire ( sic!) is so small and a far cry from any that is known in history? The false historians failed woefully to cover this jigsaw puzzle.

(29) The Kingdom of Nupe was an acephalous community but in the 17th century,it sacked the Oyo . Evicted it from Borgu and made it to relocate its capital to OYO Igoho, another hamlet community that can never qualify as capital of a dukedom let alone an empire. Now, most of the towns of Nupe were tribute payers to the Benin empire and never Benin conquerors.


(30) It is on incontrovertible record that,the colonialist never met an empire called Oyo when they came to Nigeria but they did meet the Benin Empire in all her glory having Suzerainty over many Yoruba speaking city states like Lagos,Akure,Ado,Idoani,Ondo,Igbokoda,Owo,Ifon,Ekiti,Owu etc. infact, it is the admission of the fact by many of these coastal states that their overlord is the Oba of Benin that led to the European interest to visit the Oba and settle supremacy once and for all. Oba Overanmwen Nogbaisi was the one they eventually clashed with. Recall that as early as the 15th century, the Oba of Benin has had positive and co-equals interactions with the Portuguese Empire.
(31) Look closely at the map in pix one hereto. That is the colonial Map of Benin. It is less than half of what it was before the whiteman came. Still at that, it shows the whole of the current Midwest,nearly the whole western states including the whole Lagos, some eastern states and north central communities as part of the empire of Benin they met. Now, tell me, where is the geo-political delineation of the mythical oyo empire created by Ola Biola,Olatun Bonsun et al?
(32) How come Oyo-Ile the capital of the contrived OYO is today not the most important city in Yorubaland as Benin city is in Edo. Many old cities that survive still remain the seats of governments. Sokoto,Benin city etc. but the alleged Capital of old oyo hardly ranks as a local government headquarters. This is not consistent with the Yoruba nature which accords much respect to traditional authority and culture. The explanation is simple. There never was such an empire with such a small community as capital city. The proud Yoruba man can never accept such scandal. The capital of their city states like Ibadan,Abeokuta etc is enough to take care of their territorial pride,not the scandalous hamlet of OYO-Ile.
(33) Do you know that there is hardly a Yoruba community except the much mentioned Oyo-Ile,that has no exclusive language of its own that is not Yoruba. These various Yoruba languages are mutually unintelligible to each other. The current general Yoruba evolved from markets that was then mainly that of slave trade.
(34) Now, unlike the Benins and most indigenous Nigerian kingdoms,the Yorubas have the most exported slaves in diaspora. They are very many in the Caribbeans and in Brazil. Do you know why? This is because,it is easy to sell people who are not from the same stork with you.except for criminals,Benin and other kingdoms do not sell their citizens. This again clearly show that a monolithic oyo empire was a lie. The Yorubas had warring and hostile city states and were never united under one pre-colonial power. Chief Awolowo was once rejected by them at the polls as Ijebu( fake) Yoruba. Ironically, it was the same man that came out with the concept and in fact united them as one common political people. That is why they worship him second only to Oduduwa.

(35) Do you know that even their historians admitted the truth in their text books that Oramiyan after leaving Benin founded OYO empire. It is very obvious that Benin is older by far than the fathom Oyo Empire. What is however curious is that, if Ajaka,Shango,Ogun all later children of Oramiyan were deified to be worshipped by the Yorubas, how come Oramiyan's eldest son ( Eweka) who established the most powerful dynasty on earth was not included in their list of deities. This further lend weight to the argument that the history of the Yoruba empire was all about tribal glorification. Anyway, Oduduwa their alleged founder was actually Prince Izoduwa ( Ekhalederan) the only son of the last Ogiso of the first Benin dynasty-Owodo who was banished so that his father could have other children. This is a story for another day.
(36) It still beat me why other Africa historical states only have Benin on their record not OYO empire. Dahomey the alleged neighbour of old OYO recognized Benin as not only its cradle but its main powerful neighbour. Find this extract from Wikipedia interesting...

(37) According to the Wikipedia article on the People’s Republic of Benin, the new name was chosen to reflect the Benin Empire “that had once flourished in neighboring Nigeria.” Most sources, however, maintain that the new name referenced not the Empire but the Bight of Benin, the adjacent stretch of the Atlantic Ocean. The country’s new leaders rejected the name “Dahomey” because they considered it too ethnically exclusive, since the old kingdom of that name had been closely identified with the Fon people of the coastal zone. The new name, based on physical geography, seemed less divisive—even though the term “Benin” ultimate derives from the former Benin Kingdom of the Edo people in what is now Nigeria. The capital of that state, Ubinu, gave rise to the term “Benin City,” which was generalized to cover the entire kingdom, and was subsequently applied to the adjacent sea.
Source: http://www.geocurrents.info/historical-geography/ethnic-politics-an...
I have never doubted our relationship with the Yorubas. Everything natural points to the fact that they are our cousin. What I however disapprove is their attempt to use their privileged premier schooling by the whiteman to re-write history by distorting the true one and concocting a fake one that undermines the superiority of the old Benin empire over their city states.

THERE WERE NEVER AN OYO EMPIRE..
(38) Here is a beautiful example of Rigobert Bonne's 1770 decorative map of West Africa. Covers from the Gold Coast (modern day Ghana), south around the Bight of Benin to Gabon, Congo and Angola. Includes the modern day countries of Ghana, Togo, Benin, Nigeria, Cameroon, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Congo and Angola. As with most maps of Africa, this map shows excellent detail along the coast and only speculation in the interior. Give evidence of significant Belgian mapping activities throughout the Congo. Names numerous African Kingdoms including Anzico, Mujaco, Bembe, Lubolo, Pemba, Dembi, Calbongo, Bake-Bake, Benin and others. Attempts to map the Niger River as to flows into the Desert de Seth or Saghara, but most of this cartography is speculative at best. Drawn by R. Bonne in 1770 for issue as plate no. B 30 in Jean Lattre's 1776 issue of the Atlas Moderne ." here there was no mention of any empire or people called yoruba or oyo empire

Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1770_Bonne_Map_of_West_Africa_​(Guinea,_the_Bight_of_Benin,_Congo)_-_Geographicus_-_WestAfrica-bonne-1770.jpg
(39) All European explorers arriving West Africa Maps have no Yoruba as a people or Empire but Benin

40) Real Yorubas are from dahomey while others from the north, never was an Empire in any time of West Africa history.
(41) Language is a legitimate tool for constructing history and all the names
associated with Oduduwa have deeper roots in Edo language than in the Yoruba.
The Arabs or the Yoruba, do not have words like ‘Uhe’ (the sacred name for Edo
and Ile-Ife, or words ending with ‘duwa,’ ‘noyan’ or ‘miyan,’ which are typical
Edo vowels. ‘Uhe’ is perhaps the most powerful and revealing of all the Edo
names associated with Ile-Ife because depending on how it is pronounced, it
could refer to something sacred or taboo (such as Virgin or Virginity or
Vagina), interpreted as innocence, source, birth canal.
(42) There isn’t and wasn’t any Yoruba Kingdom, Lagos kingdom but there was a Benin Kingdom
(43) "Eko" in Uneme Anegbette (Imiava) dialect means a Settle. And Eko is the indigenous name of Lagos. It was in 1974 that approval was granted Dahomey by Oba Akenzua II to change the name of the country to Republic of Benin. This shows that Benin Empire stretched beyond the entire Yorubaland!. why did Republic of Benin go to yoruba being that they are closer? definitely if there really was an empire as they claim stretch to togo.
(44) YORUBA NEVER HAD ANY CIVILIZATION, BUILT ANY MONUMENT OR ANY WORLD SITE THAT TELLS OF AN EMPIRE OR GREAT KINGDOM LIKE BENIN. An Empire is always self evidence
(45) BENIN AND YORUBA ARE NOT SAME in Origin
(46) YORUBA WAS NEVER AN ETHNIC RACE!!!!!! PRE-BRITISH HISTORY OF NIGERIA
I will leave the Yoruba to defend themselves about questions origins of the name "Yoruba." As far as Usman is concerned, that name was an imperial donation from the North. I am intrigued by Usman’s argument on this score. Note his words well. He says, The fact is that, the earliest record we have of the use of the very name "Yoruba" was in the Hausa-Fulani language and it seems to have applied to the people of the Alafinate of Oyo. This came from the writings of the seventeenth century Katsina scholar, Dan Masani (1595-1667), who wrote a book on Muslim scholars of the 'Yarriba.' But it was from a book of the Sarkin Musulmi Bello, written in the early nineteenth century, that the name became more widely used. The Bishop Ajayi Crowther, the Reverend Samuel Johnson, and his brother Obadiah Johnson, among others, came, in the nineteenth century, to widely spread this Hausa name to the people who now bear it, in their writings. Usman’s proof that the name "Yoruba" is an "Hausa name and It is so, the earliest record we have of the use of the very name 'Yoruba' was in the Hausa-Fulani language.
(47) ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD YORUBA (Yoruba) is revealed in the 19th Century.: The word 'Yoruba' was first recorded in reference to the Oyo people only, in a treatise written by the 16th-century Songhai scholar Ahmed Baba. It was popularized by Hausa usage and ethnography written in Arabic and Ajami during the 19th century, in origin referring to the Oyo exclusively.
The extension of the term YORUBA to all speakers of dialects related to the language of the Oyo (in modern terminology North-West Yoruba) dates to the second half of the 19th century. It is due to the influence of Samuel Ajayi Crowther, the first Anglican bishop in Nigeria. Crowther was himself a Yoruba and compiled the first Yoruba dictionary as well as introducing a standard for Yoruba orthography.It's like classifying all of Northern Nigeria as Hausa. The presence of yoruba inflence in most places today claimed as yorubaland can be traced back to the propaganda nature of crowther.
(48) Do you believe ODUDUWA is the ancestral father of the Yoruba people?
Many Yoruba scholars claim oduduwa fell from the sky to Yoruba land. Where actually did he land? , Any sign ?. Others say he came from the east, ok, did he meet people in the so called Yoruba land? If yes, then how can oduduwa now be their ancestral father?
(49) Does Yoruba have any historic monument like the pyramid structures in Old Benin, Great Benin Moat, Zimbabwe and Timbuktu in Mali? Any sign of an empire in the region as claimed do Oyo?(not talking about clay molded or primitive bronze artifacts many claim dating back to 10BC), or the story of slave raiding westward, east ward or northward. I mean physical structures that tell of an ancient civilization?.Though the two most relevant structures in Oyo-lle, the Alaafin palace and his village market as claimed by Yoruba Historians ?

(50) When and where was Yoruba presence first felt in West African history? Why no reflection of Yoruba in many ancient maps of West Africa?
(51) Was Yoruba territory in British pre- Nigeria creation say 1600-1900, same with, 1914 and again in 1960 to 1967? What expanded it and why? Were there aborigines in those territories say owo, kwara, ondo and Lagos before their presence during the British colonial period? If there were aborigines, then who were they?
.¨^view bellow map carefully and never mind other maps spread accross the internet designed by photoshop *

(52) THIS BOOK EXTRACT SHOWS WHERE THE WHOLE ROBBING AND FALSE CLAIMING OF GREAT BENIN KINGDOM LAND, TRADITIONAL INSTITUTION, AND NIGERIA CONTROL OF EDO NATION OIL WELL BEGAN TO FALL INTO UNMERITED INDIVIDUALS AND CLANS HANDS. SOME OF THEM BEGAN TO INVENT HISTORY FROM NOTHING AS THE ANCESTORS OF ADA AND EVE...SAD!.
(53) here how britain began the creation of other kings, traditional institutions in south nigeria , today see as an independent trado institutions. BENIN KINGDOM - EDO NATION THE HOME OF EKITI, ONDO, DELTA, KOGI, LAGOS TO ANAMBRA


(e)YORUBA NOT BENIN BUT CIVILIZED BY BENIN : http://ihuanedo.ning.com/group/healtheducation/forum/topics/yoruba-...
(f) Why Wazobia is a lie, not Nigeria! not Majority? : http://ihuanedo.ning.com/group/wazobiaisalienotnigeria/forum/topics...
(g) Politics of numbers: the Wazobia lies. : http://ihuanedo.ning.com/group/wazobiaisalienotnigeria/forum/topics...
(h) Edo - Akure Question : http://ihuanedo.ning.com/group/healtheducation/foru​do-aku...

Mancala:


I noticed in the documentary you provided, the mention of a huge bronze bird on the roof of the Oba of Benins palace in a bronze sculpture. This is strikingly similar to the bird on the head of the horseman. Would you happen to know the significance of this bird?

I'm so sorry I missed this question.

I do not know what the significance of the bird on the palace was, nor do I know how it's related (if related) to the bird adorning the horseman's headdress.

I hope to be able to find out in the nearest time and get back to you, in case I find out before you.

Cheers!

Benin

Now I'm beginning to appreciate where the sickness of the typical Edo dogmatist Nairalander emanated from.

Just as the North Korean local media is well controlled by Kim Jong-un even to the point that the citizenry were made to believe that North Korea won the 2014 FIFA World Cup; something similar has actually been happening right under our noses in a small section of Southern Nigeria since the 1970s.

The epistles just posted above me by a certain Bini person, who is most likely an adult, makes you wonder what an adult has been made to ingest without hesitation and scrutiny, and in the face of contrary incontrovertible world-class evidence by the world's leading experts.

It all just made sense now! There is clearly some strong control by the Benin indigenous authorities on their citizens. They obviously control them on: what is to be read, what is to be said, and what is to be digested, even if world-class compelling evidence says otherwise.


I strongly suspect that (although not exactly identical to the North Korean case) the Benin similitude must have been a control induced by yet another public cursing stunt.

More like:

Any Edo man or woman who submits to an historical fact which puts Benin kingdom in its proper lower hierarchy in relation to Yoruba, shall die before 21 days.

Edo children must be willing to make up a lie to deceive both unsuspecting Binis and Yorubas just to give the false impression of Benin kingdom as the greatest. I, the "great" Oba of Benin kingdom, have spoken.

And without any questions, somebody sheepishly yells at his loudest voice:

"OBA GHATO KPERE!!!"




I personally think Oranmiyan went too far in his domination. The brunt is somehow still being borne by those he conquered even after about a thousand years.

pained Yoruba wailer writing epistle just to cover his tears.

Oyo or ife empires remain an empire in deluded Yoruba minds.

You claim Benin were under Yoruba but most Yoruba speaking villages were under Benin and paid homage to us, the oba of Lagos can confirm it for you.

No foreign historians even have records of this fathom Oyo empire. These people are really deluded.

If it wasn't the British that helped you people, you would have still been slaves to fulani. They even took ilonrin without a fight. Lol cowards claiming benin glory

Astark:
You claim Benin were under Yoruba but most Yoruba speaking villages were under Benin and paid homage to us, the oba of Lagos can confirm it for you.

No foreign historians even have records of this fathom Oyo empire. These people are really deluded.

If it wasn't the British that helped you people, you would have still been slaves to fulani. They even took ilonrin without a fight. Lol cowards claiming benin glory

Hoping that after a few days someone has learnt how to read.

Or we would learn about the latest Benin excuse in town.

See attached screenshot and let's see what your reply sorry, your excuse would be this time.

TAO11:


You're right my brother!

Even if arguably the whole populace (i.e. every non-royal Tom, Dick, and Harry of Benin kingdom then) spoke another language (i.e. Edo); there is substantial historical evidence indicating that Yoruba was the official language of the then Benin royal court.


*The first is that:

According to Omo N'Oba N'Edo Erediauwa, in his "Benin-Ife Connection, 2004", young Eweka (born and raised in Benin kingdom in a Benin family) was born dumb in his early days. Erediauwa noted that Eweka's very first words (having won an opponent in a game of "ayò" or "akhue" ) was an exclamation in excitement "in his father's tongue" saying "OWOMIKA"

In other words, the young prince uttered his very first words in Yoruba language --- obviously and certainly the language he had always heard as he was growing up in Benin kingdom.


*The second historical evidence, which is very crucial, is that:

The Obas of Benin (even until as recent as 1937) considered themselves as part of the Yoruba household --- In fact, they attended meetings and conferences of Yoruba Obas, in Yorubaland, where the language of the proceedings was mutually intelligible --- Yoruba language.

The report of the first conference of Yoruba chiefs held at Oyo on 31 March and 1 April 1937, notes in its introduction as follows:


"The chiefs were seated in horse-shoe formation with the Oni of Ife, as head of the town from which all Yoruba have traditionally sprung, at the centre, and the Alafin of Oyo at the western and the Oba of Benin at the eastern end, an arrangement which gave general satisfaction."


See the attached screenshot below for "a sketch of the seating arrangement" as contained in the report.


--- Refer to: "Conference of Yoruba Chiefs, Oyo, 31 March to 1 April 1937", mimeographed, p.1.


**During the second of this conference held at Ife on 16 and 17 March 1 1938, the question of permanent membership was raised, and after deliberation a list of permanent members was announced with the name of the Oba of Benin in third place after those of the Ooni of Ife and the Alaafin of Oyo.


Before the end of the conference, a proposal was made to extend the membership scope to include others from the Western Yoruba provinces. This proposal drew comment from the Ooni of Ife to the effect that this would create certain problems, including that of language. Then he said, 'We understand the Oba of Benin: he is one of us, and today we come together as the children of Odudua'"


--- Refer to: "Conference of Yoruba Chiefs, Ife, 16 and 17 March 1938", mimeographed, p. 44.


This foregoing paragraph shows clearly that the problem of language [which the Ooni envisaged if the membership scope was to include the Western Yoruba subgroups of Dahomey and Togoland (i.e., the Ketu, the Idasa, the Sabe, the Ahori, the Mahi, the Sha a.k.a. the Itsha, and the Ifè of Togo a.k.a. the Ana)] was absent in the then present arrangement which included the Oba of Benin.


In other words, the Yoruba language was mutually intelligible in the then present arrangement.

Is this Yoruba joke?

Essential:


Is this Yoruba joke?

Honestly, I am not very clear about what you mean, but I assume that you have some specific contentions with respect to my evidence-backed submission.

But if you really want to have an intellectual exchange, then begin by engaging the incontrovertible evidence I have adduced.

Cheers!

samuk:
[b][/b]BENINS WERE THE FIRST EDUCATED NIGERIANS

Dr. Samuel Okafor, the Igbo scholar In an article made available to News Express yesterday, Okafor responds to critics of his claims and sets the records straight on great Nigerians, mainly of the past, from various parts of the country. He also explains his motive and suggests the way forward in Igbo-Yoruba relations. Please read on:

I had earlier made a submission stating that the Binis were the first to be exposed to Western education. This very position which I presented was not well received by a lot of my Yoruba brothers who have gone to great lengths to discredit this true historical fact.

Some have even resorted to outright fabrication of history. They have based their own position on sentiments which have no bearing to known historical research. I have thus decided to provide further historical evidences to further substantiate my previous position, because the very essence of historical research is not to belittle any ethnic nationality but to provide a deeper understanding of our history with a view of correcting some wrong pre-conceived notions held or being propagated by some ethnic nationalities.

In historical research, when one disagrees with another position, that person must provide an alternative and completing evidence to the contrary, and also provide references that can be crosschecked for accuracy. My Yoruba brothers have failed to provide the much required evidence. They have simply stated an alternative position without showing that indeed their position on the balance of historical evidence is the one to adopt. This, as one of my great professors, Adiele Afigbo, would put it, is the lazy historical approach to historical research. I would now provide incontrovertible evidence that the Binis were the first to be exposed to Western education.

THE BINIS WERE THE FIRST NIGERIANS EXPOSED TO WESTERN EDUCATION

I would ask that readers google the name, Ohen Okun. Ohen Okun from historical records held in both Benin archives and in the annals of Portuguese history was the Olokun priest of the port town of Ughoton Benin. Oba Esigie the Great, who reigned from 1504 to 1549, sent the Ohen Okun to Portugal as the Ambassador of Benin to the Portuguese Court. While in Portugal, the Portuguese Affonso D. Aveiro remained in Benin as the Portuguese envoy. Ohen Okun was treated with respect while in Portugal. He later returned to Benin and is described as the first known Diplomat of Nigerian origin to Europe.

A BINI MAN WAS THE FIRST NIGERIAN GRADUATE

Let us go further; who was the first known Nigerian graduate? As this issue has generated so much controversy, it is important that I deal with it comprehensively and provide a clear evidence to substantiate my research. Readers, again kindly google the name Olu Atuwatse (Dom Domingo). Olu Atuwatse was the crown prince of the Bini Empire who was sent to Portugal in 1601 for advanced studies by his father, the then reigning Oba. He graduated from the University of Coimbra in 1611. He was the first Nigerian to obtain a European university degree. He later married the daughter of a Portuguese noble, Dona Feirs. Their son Antonio Domingo referred to in Benin history as the Golden Skinned King succeeded him to the throne in 1643.

Antonio Domingo, a Christian who wanted to spread Christianity throughout the Empire, wrote the Pope in 1652 asking for Missionary assistance. This is the oldest letter written in Nigeria. I think this lays to rest which ethnic nationality produced the first educated Nigerians. If required, I would provide other historical research to substantiate my position further. I ask my Yoruba brothers to provide the same.

Dr Okafor

Dr. Okafor u are a man of truth and a great researcher. Thank God you are not a Bini man. People would have think otherwise. Even Oba of Lagos have told them on different occasions but they keep shying away from truth. Pls kindly ask them who is the father of oduduwa, the founder of ife. Thank you sir, may your days be long.

Essential:

Dr. Okafor u are a man of truth and a great researcher. Thank God you are not a Bini man. People would have think otherwise. Even Oba of Lagos have told them on different occasions but they keep shying away from truth. Pls kindly ask them who is the father of oduduwa, the founder of ife. Thank you sir, may your days be long.

the father of oduduwa is lamurudu or nimrod meaning oduduwa is a descendant of the biblical nimrod.

TAO11:


Honestly, I am not very clear about what you mean, but I assume that you have some specific contentions with respect to my evidence-backed submission.

But if you really want to have an intellectual exchange, then begin by engaging the incontrovertible evidence I have adduced.

Cheers!

I love the way you highlight and outline points for delivery.

It is not possible for Benin to independ e ntly construct their history from beginning till now and not reference a single article or journal written by Europeans. What they know, and proclaim, of themself is what European explorers (many who have never even stepped feet in Bini) wrote about Bini and is all flowery and solicitous.

Olfert Dapper's journals about Bini became source reference for many writers for many centuries afterward, and even uptil today his journal entries and publications are still used when writing about Bini....but the man does not even know where Bini is located. He never visited it or met any native from there. He collected stories from sailors who heard it through other sailors who heard of Bini while at sea.

This type of nonsense below and many such illustrations is what Edos piece together and proclaim as their history. Independently they cannot articulate their origin, or that of Ogiso Chiefs dispatched to them from Ife or even their foreign Oba.

If you notice from top first paragraph said "Dutch visitor, Olfert Dapper".

That copy and paste is from a Edo website.

Here is authentic source about Dapper.

When engaged in debate with Edos on origin of their civilization I ask them a simple question; detail the tradition of textile and genesis of fabric styles in Edoland. I ask them this question because it is one aspect of civilization which the European writers never recorded for them. So I want them to tell history of clothing and styling in their native land. Everytime I ask this they abandon the thread.

Cloth weaving, dyeing and its styling remains a vital exchange and part and parcel of civilizations in Africa today as it was and had ever been in our antiquity and ancestral past. Imperial Courts had guilds specialized in cloth weaving, in embroidery, in dyeing and they exported textiles as a means of exchange in commerce, communication and building alliance. Why do we not see Bini footprint represented in this very important and significant cultural value? It's because the natives were uncivilized and roamed the forest in nud.ity. Thank God to Ife who civilized their land and natives and gave them textiles introduced through the dynasties of Ogiso and Oba.


According to Colleen E. Kriger, author of Cloth in West African history, "Clothe is a paradox raw material for the reconstruction of history. When used as clothing, its most common manifestation, cloth is highly visible, often revealing cultural values and social strata as well as aesthetic preferences. It is also highly mobile, leaving a record of travel, trade and gift contacts. These factors make it a rich source of historical information".

lawani:
the father of oduduwa is lamurudu or nimrod.

Sometimes you don't have to stress with these people.

Just turn the table and see them get confused before they run away.

You could, for example, ask them to tell you who the father of Ogiso Igodo is.

They will run away or change topic.

MetaPhysical:


I love the way you highlight and outline points for delivery.

It is not possible for Benin to independ e ntly construct their history from beginning till now and not reference a single article or journal written by Europeans. What they know, and proclaim, of themself is what European explorers (many who have never even stepped feet in Bini) wrote about Bini and is all flowery and solicitous.

Olfert Dapper's journals about Bini became source reference for many writers for many centuries afterward, and even uptil today his journal entries and publications are still used when writing about Bini....but the man does not even know where Bini is located. He never visited it or met any native from there. He collected stories from sailors who heard it through other sailors who heard of Bini while at sea.

This type of nonsense below and many such illustrations is what Edos piece together and proclaim as their history. Independently they cannot articulate their origin, or that of Ogiso Chiefs dispatched to them from Ife or even their foreign Oba.

Thanks bro!

Most of our Bini folks on this platform actually need to be pitied.

Regarding the Yoruba-Edo relationship, most of them are battling extreme inferiority complex or severe delusions of grandeur.

They need to be loved and they need to be helped. They need our help now than ever as historical facts are just few clicks away in this age.

We must always come with the facts to knock out their fictions.

Cheers!

TAO11:


You're only exposing yourself more, by thinking that you will cover up a smaller hole by digging a bigger one.

Your Bini tradition claims that it was Ewuare1 (who lived and died before the first Portuguese delegation came to Benin kingdom) that introduced beads to Benin kingdom. Whether he truly got them from a sea deity or not is not my business, that is for the Edos to reconcile.

No problem if you really want to disown your Bini tradition. But claiming that it was the Portuguese (who arrived after Ewuare1 had died in 1473) that introduced beads to Benin kingdom even makes your case worse.

This is because the gap between beads production in Ife and the use of beads in Benin gets wider.

And in case you had thought I won't be able to re-post the evidence of beads production in Ife, then here we go:

"The Yoruba people have, in fact, been producing beads in Ile-Ife since as early as the 12th century --- that is, since as early as the 1100s. --- that is, some 300 years before the Portuguese would according to you introduce its use to Benin kingdom.

Refer to the academic paper at the following link for enlightenment:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281149310_Glass_Beads_from_Igbo-Olokun_Ile-Ife_Chemical_Composition_Production_and_Regional_Interaction

It contains the scholarly academic paper entitled:

"Glass Beads from Igbo-Olokun, Ile-Ife: Chemical Composition, Production, and Regional Interaction",

The paper was presented at an annual conference of the Society for American Archaeology."

And it states clearly in the Abstract, and I quote here:

"The site of Igbo Olokun in the city of Ife, in southwestern Nigeria has been identified as a primary glass and glass beads production center dating to the “Classic” period (12th-15th c.)"


Having said that, if you're really desperate to claim that some kind of beads were already in use in Benin kingdom prior to Ewuare1); then do so by the adducing evidence. Don't just simply submit a wishful thinking or your personal word-of-mouth.

Stop giving excuses like:

Although I have time to argue with you, I don't have time to provide evidence for whatever bogus statement I make.

Does such an idea even make sense to you?

If you have the time to make any claim, then you should have the time to defend it with scholarly academic evidence.

Provide the evidence for your imagination.


And regarding your claim that some drawings of pre-Ewuare1 kings of Benin (such as is shown in the following link) show the use of beads:

https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html

This is the lamest argument I have ever heard. If you really believe this desperate face-saving claim you just made; then you probably believe that Jesus Christ is an American/European just because drawings portray him as such.

Address my arguments (earlier ones and this one, if you believe you can), and if you can't, then simply move on with your delusion.

Bye!


Modified:

You're a shameless liar!

Both Ivie and Ekan are coral beads even according to your Edo website shown below.

In case you want to stick to your Benin tradition, then your Edo website says it was Oba Ewuare in the 1400's A.D. who brought them (i.e coral beads) to Benin kingdom.

But in case you hate to stick to Benin traditions, then even your Edo website below says that coral beads are mined from bushlike formations in oceans, such as the Mediterranean sea and the sea of Japan.

http://www.edofolks.com/html/pub8.htm

But in any case, the keyword is "coral beads". And that comprises of both Ivie and Ekan. Stop pretending like "coral beads" refer only to "Ivie". Your Edo website has already exposed you on that.

I find you amusing ...and intelligent but at thesame time youre not smart... You read wide but alongside dogmatism and bigotry ....i will never step in shoes of ethnocentrism just to save the edo history you should get that fact..
You post links of so many write up full of prejudice and lots of error then you claim you're smart or you won me in an argument...ha ..
Just so you know keep posting those links and i will keep reviewing and get vital information from them to explain possibilities since our ancestors never wrote in words....

Discard that crap of ewaure inventing beads in benin i can tell you so many folktales of ewaure in benin he was the greateat king so much of folklore is expected from him which some are lies ....
The issue am having with you is when a source of info suit you ...you paste the links to counter me discard other sources of links ...you aegued egnrevba works was original against the edo site that claims otherwise but here you are pisting thesame edo site you say is not correct

Am probably looking for all possibilities oduduwa is benin

gregyboy:


[s]I find you amusing ...and intelligent but at thesame time youre not smart... You read wide but alongside dogmatism and bigotry ....i will never step in shoes of ethnocentrism just to save the edo history you should get that fact..[/s]

[s]You post links of so many write up full of prejudice and lots of error then you claim you're smart or you won me in an argument...ha ..
Just so you know keep posting those links and i will keep reviewing and get vital information from them to explain possibilities since our ancestors never wrote in words....[/s]

Discard that crap of ewaure inventing beads in benin i can tell you so many folktales of ewaure in benin he was the greateat king so much of folklore is expected from him which some are lies ....

The issue am having with you is when a source of info suit you ...you paste the links to counter me discard other sources of links ...you aegued egnrevba works was original against the edo site that claims otherwise but here you are pisting thesame edo site you say is not correct

Am probably looking for all possibilities oduduwa is benin

If you're begging me to discard your own Benin tradition which says that Ewuare1 introduced the use of beads to Benin in the 1400s, then there is a big problem within your camp.

Mind you, academia (University of Iowa) also testifies to this tradition which says that coral beads (i.e. Ivie and Ekan) was introduced to Benin by Ewuare1. Refer here: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/topic-essays/show/4?start=1

Furthermore, nowhere did I ever mention to you that the later Edo revisionists disagreed with Egharevba on the issue of who introduced beads into Benin.

Yes, the later Edo revisionists shied away from certain facts which Egharevba had already stated since the 1930s (such as the fact that the Edo Ekaladerhan is separate and distinct from the Ife Oduduwa, etc.).

Nowhere have I ever mentioned to you at any time that the later Bini revisionists shied away from EVERY FACT submitted by Egharevba. Please point out where I ever made any statement to this effect.


But if you must insist on rejecting your own tradition which says that Ewuare1 introduced beads' use into Benin (a rejection which is actually shameful of you to start with), you should at least be willing to provide even a shred of evidence to support your imagination that beads were used before Ewuare in Benin.

Please do not say you don't have enough time to provide the evidence.

TAO11:


If you're begging me to discard your own Benin tradition which says that Ewuare1 introduced the use of beads to Benin in the 1400s, then there is a big problem within your camp.

Mind you, academia (University of Iowa) also testifies that this tradition which says that coral beads (i.e. Ivie and Ekan) was introduced to Benin by Ewuare1. Refer here: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/topic-essays/show/4?start=1

Furthermore, nowhere did I ever mention to you that the later Edo revisionists disagreed with Egharevba on the issue of who introduced beads into Benin.

Yes, the later Edo revisionists shied away from certain facts which Egharevba had already stated since the 1930s (such as the fact that the Edo Ekaladerhan is separate and distinct from the Ife Oduduwa, etc.).

Nowhere have I ever mentioned to you at any time that the later Bini revisionists shied away from EVERY FACT submitted by Egharevba. Please point out where I ever made any statement to this effect.


But if you must insist on rejecting your own tradition which says that Ewuare1 introduced beads' use into Benin (a rejection which is actually shameful of you to start with), you should at least be willing to provide even a shred of evidence to support your imagination that beads were used before Ewuare in Benin.

Please do not say you don't have enough time to provide the evidence.

Benin artefact sculpture shown men with beads wear at 13century eware reigned at 15 century ..

My friend sit down and reason those links that you draw up to counter me am not like everyother guy here on net you can post anything on ...please if you are posting links please review them first stop giving me work to start proving your links wrongs all the time...

If we are to go by all this links you post we will end up getting so many counter claims the yoruba claims they introduce beads to benin the benin oldest artefect is way older than yoruba oldest art works...
Because it a benin website wont make it hundred % correct or because he is a benin man “egharevba" thats were you always get it wrong you keep posting links and you feel satisfied you have made sense and have countered me ...lol...

gregyboy:


Benin artefact sculpture shown men with beads wear at 13century eware reigned at 15 century ..

[s]My friend sit down and reason those links that you draw up to counter me am not like everyother guy here on net you can post anything on ...please if you are posting links please review them first stop giving me work to start proving your links wrongs all the time..[/s]

[s]If we are to go by all this links you post we will end up getting so many counter claims the yoruba claims they introduce beads to begin[/s] the benin oldest artefect is way older than yoruba oldest art works...

[s]Because it a benin website wont make it hundred % correct or because he is a benin man “egharevba" thats were you always get it wrong you keep posting links and you feel satisfied you have made sense and have countered me ...lol...[/s]

Provide your evidence for the above first boldened claim.

Provide your evidence for the above second boldened claim.

Every other thing is your usual incoherent and insanely idiotic rant.

TAO11:


Provide your evidence for the above first boldened claim.

Provide your evidence for the above second boldened claim.

Every other thing is your usual incoherent and insanely idiotic rant.

Pic one and two 13 century artefact...

And again the benin ceremonial sword is as old as the ogiso era and it is made from bronze far back 4bc

gregyboy:


Pic one and two 13 century artefact...

And again the benin ceremonial sword is as old as the ogiso era and it is made from bronze far back 4bc

Here the most you could do even after several hours of tortuous search is to simply attach a picture of a Benin bronze/brass cast, and then proceed to type with your own hands that it dates to the 13th century. Lol!

No, you have to provide an expert, scholarly, academic source which dates these specific attached artefacts.

Moreover, how is the dating of a sword to Ogiso era (although without any dating evidence) supposed to be evidence that beads were used before the reign of Ewuare1??

Once again, are you sure I'm not discussing with a ret@rd?

TAO11:


Here the most you could do even after several hours of tortuous search is to simply attach a picture of a Benin bronze/brass cast, and then proceed to type with your own hands that it dates to the 13th century. Lol!

No, you have to provide an expert, scholarly, academic source which dates these specific attached artefacts.

Moreover, how is the dating of a sword to Ogiso era (although without any dating evidence) supposed to be evidence that beads were used before the reign of Ewuare1??

Once again, are you sure I'm not discussing with a ret@rd?

You see you aint wise i made that statement against of introduction of bronze making to the benins by the yoruba people....

Yea go find it on youtube ....you dont research you just "read links" and forget the write up ...go on youtube go on quora ....tuwn come back and clean your rubbish here ....

gregyboy:


You see you aint wise i made that statement against of introduction of bronze making to the benins by the yoruba people....

Yea go find it on youtube ....you dont research you just "read links" and forget the write up ...go on youtube go on quora ....tuwn come back and clean your rubbish here ....

Your personal word-of-mouth has zero weight in discussions like this. The earlier you realize this, the better for you.

You're so dull not to have realized that I've already countered your claim that a certain ceremonial sword dates to the Ogiso era.

I countered the statement when I wrote the following words: "although without any dating evidence"

In other words, your statement in that regard was a mere claim that is without any evidence, proof, or reason.

To now properly refute the statement (even though it wasn't substantiated), consider the following expert testimony of Margaret Plass an expert on the History of Ife/Benin Art. She wrote:

"... the early Oba Oguola --- supposed to have reigned about A.D. 1280 --- applied to his spiritual Overlord, the Ooni of Ife,  for the services of a bronze founder to teach his people to make the memorial bronzes formerly imported from Ife, that they might be made in Benin."

---- Refer to: Margaret Plass, The Art of Benin: An Evaluation Based on Discussions with William Fagg.


Moreover, since you apparently trust YouTube videos so much (perhaps regardless of whether the content is from an expert source), then consider the following British Museum documentary (an expert source) which makes it very clear at time stamp 47:48 to 48:09 that:

"The (Bini) people who made these majestic sculptures dating from the 16th to the 19th century were relative newcomers in the art and craft of casting metal, their oral traditions told them that they had learnt their skills from the Yoruba people of Ife about a 100 miles away to the North-West."


Similarly, consider timestamp 48:22 to 49:00 where it is also clearly sated that:

"European experts might argue about the origin of the superb technique, but to the Binis there is no mystery. Their traditions state that it was taught to them by bronze casters from the sacred city of Ife to which the kings of Benin paid homage."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI&t=2070s

I hope your doubts are gradually being cleared.

#StopFightingReality

Cheers!

TAO11:


Your personal word-of-mouth has zero weight in discussions like this. The earlier you realize this, the better for you.

You're so dull not to have realized that I've already countered your claim that a certain ceremonial sword dates to the Ogiso era.

I countered the statement when I wrote the following words: "although without any dating evidence"

In other words, your statement in that regard was a mere claim that is without any evidence, proof, or reason.

To now properly refute the statement (even though it wasn't substantiated), consider the following expert testimony of Margaret Plass an expert on the History of Ife/Benin Art. She wrote:

"... the early Oba Oguola --- supposed to have reigned about A.D. 1280 --- applied to his spiritual Overlord, the Ooni of Ife,  for the services of a bronze founder to teach his people to make the memorial bronzes formerly imported from Ife, [sub][/sub]that they might be made in Benin."

---- Refer to: Margaret Plass, The Art of Benin: An Evaluation Based on Discussions with William Fagg.


Moreover, since you apparently trust YouTube videos so much (perhaps regardless of whether the content is from an expert source), then consider the following British Museum documentary (an expert source) which makes it very clear at time stamp 47:48 to 48:09 that:

"The (Bini) people who made these majestic sculptures dating from the 16th to the 19th century were relative newcomers in the art and craft of casting metal, their oral traditions told them that they had learnt their skills from the Yoruba people of Ife about a 100 miles away to the North-West."


Similarly, consider timestamp 48:22 to 49:00 where it is also clearly sated that:

"European experts might argue about the origin of the superb technique, but to the Binis there is no mystery. Their traditions state that it was taught to them by bronze casters from the sacred city of Ife to which the kings of Benin paid homage."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI&t=2070s

I hope your doubts are gradually being cleared.

#StopFightingReality

Cheers!

....you keep posting nonsense you simply posted egharevbas works of fiction again egharevbas made those mere assumption posted there i just keep telling you all the time egharevbas works has been disproved even by foreign authors example from the statement above. You wont just learn my friend

Here is a screenshot from edonet stating otherwise of those statemen you mentioned even some European author disproved those claims

Who was the ooni at 12c since we knew the oba of benin then lets start from there i searched the net for it there is no date attached to the ooni until recently because they didn't document thier history ...benin has a burial site in the palace for all past oba so they can easily get documentation from each site alongside each oba ancestoral strine which info can be made available if needed so why would i agree with that writeup above we can even draw assertion to the claims on the side of the yorubas .
What a pity for a population upto thier 50million and did nothing to document thier history

TAO11:


Honestly, I am not very clear about what you mean, but I assume that you have some specific contentions with respect to my evidence-backed submission.

But if you really want to have an intellectual exchange, then begin by engaging the incontrovertible evidence I have adduced.

Cheers!

Give the links to that site and a foreign reference to that