LordReed:


It depends on the nature of the god's "reign". If it is as tyrannical as expressed in the OT of the bible, I expect there to be resentment against the god and at least covert resistance to some of the rather nasty practices.

If the god turns out to be truly benevolent such that everyone experiences a sort of paradise then I think everyone would have no cause to rail against the god.

Next would be this point:
Again I adisagree. If God would live physically visible here in this world, and I believe that he is benevolent and great, then a majority of people will 1. hate him, 2. wage wars against him and his followers, 3. accuse him and 4. definitely not accept his reign.

alxb19:


Next would be this point:
Again I adisagree. If God would live physically visible here in this world, and I believe that he is benevolent and great, then a majority of people will 1. hate him, 2. wage wars against him and his followers, 3. accuse him and 4. definitely not accept his reign.

Why would they fight against the god if it was benevolent? Unless of course this benevolence is selective.

tintingz:
Ofcos there are good Atheists and bad ones same for Christians and every other religions.

But...

Atheists/Atheism don't have dogmas they follow, no Bible or divine text to justify their actions.

But in Christianity, they have Bible and dogmas, their actions can be justify from their dogmas.

So the problem is not about the people per se, the problem is about dogmatism, these are the things that influenced the people.

Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson have debated this before, Sam Harris gave a very valid point on this.

And I think you're being bias, how do you conclude the Christians that did evil are/were not real Christians?

Regarding being biased: Good point. I have to clarify it.

I would "classify" people who claim that they are christians in the following groups:

Christians:

1. Real christians.
The definition is in principle simple: Bible/Rom. 8:14 "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.", Hab. 2:4 “... the righteous shall live by his faith.". The Bible states that a "christian" (follower of Jesus Christ, son of God) are those persons who deliberately and actively believe and trust in Jesus and "follow" him daily in their lives and "try" to live as Jesus requires from his followers. The word "try" is inside quotation marks because this issue is a big thing and fills a lot of space inside the Bible, because it is not simple to live a good live. It is hard work and everyone fails from time to time. Critics of christians often think that christianity means to live a perfect life where 100% is perfect. This is idiotic and not what christianity is about.
A real christian will fail and do evil things from time to time. A real christian will realize such things ideally sooner than later. Then he will ask God for forgivness and the people he hurt. God will forgive him or her and the follower will "try" (again) not to do this evil action again.

I have to say, that this definition above is not shared by all christians. Some would define rather: a christian is someone who has been baptized. I personally reject such a definition. Some would define: a christian is someone who is a member of an official church. I personally reject this definition. And may be some would define: a christian is someone who claims to be a christian or whose parents are christians and hence he is christian. I also reject these definitions.

2. Real christians, but who are either very immature or on a wrong path.
Such persons in principle follow Jesus and believe in Him but they misunderstand many things and fail to realize their actions. They hurt others, insult others, lie, do not ask for forgivness, they do not love but have a lack of love, etc.
Such persons are hard to distinguish from false christians. One only can hope that they realize some day their actions and change. If not, it will depend on the degree of "wrongliness". God will judge.

3. False christians.
These people claim to be christians but are not. They talk like christians and try to behave like christians but they are not. They do not now God in their hearts. Sometimes they even prosecute real christians in the "name of God". This is not an unusual case: When Jesus lived, his biggest opponents were the religious people, the "official believers". They hated Jesus. In medieval times so-called christians inside the Roman Catholic Church killed hundreds and thousands of people, often in the most evil way this world knows. They killed non-christians and christians.

One might argue now: how do I know that these evil persons were not "immature christians"? I do not know. God will judge. But my personal opinion is: someone who does such evil things cannot be a christian.
Jesus commented clearly about such persons: Luk 13:26-27 "But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ "

alxb19:


First regarding this point:
No. We have not ruled out that personal experience is too weak. You ruled it out but I have not agreed.

You mention a court as an example and that the claims of christianity would not hold before a court. I disagree. In a court session there might be the party which mentions clear hard facts, samples, tissue, documents, fingerprints etc. and comes to a conclusion. But there might be the other party which raises issues like consciousness, good and evil, previous provocations, words, feelings, experiences, i.e. "soft" facts.
Eventually the judgment or sentence will be based on a deliberate choice of the judge. He or she will decide based on all facts, hard and soft.

In the same way every human being is in a position similar to a judge. One might judge only on "hard" materialistic facts, but the question is, is it just, is it correct? Does it map reality (the entire reality) correctly?

Has anyone ever gone to a court and won a case by saying "god told me"?

alxb19:


Regarding being biased: Good point. I have to clarify it.

I would "classify" people who claim that they are christians in the following groups:

Christians:

1. Real christians.
The definition is in principle simple: Bible/Rom. 8:14 "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.", Hab. 2:4 “... the righteous shall live by his faith.". The Bible states that a "christian" (follower of Jesus Christ, son of God) are those persons who deliberately and actively believe and trust in Jesus and "follow" him daily in their lives and "try" to live as Jesus requires from his followers. The word "try" is inside quotation marks because this issue is a big thing and fills a lot of space inside the Bible, because it is not simple to live a good live. It is hard work and everyone fails from time to time. Critics of christians often think that christianity means to live a perfect life where 100% is perfect. This is idiotic and not what christianity is about.
A real christian will fail and do evil things from time to time. A real christian will realize such things ideally sooner than later. Then he will ask God for forgivness and the people he hurt. God will forgive him or her and the follower will "try" (again) not to do this evil action again.

I have to say, that this definition above is not shared by all christians. Some would define rather: a christian is someone who has been baptized. I personally reject such a definition. Some would define: a christian is someone who is a member of an official church. I personally reject this definition. And may be some would define: a christian is someone who claims to be a christian or whose parents are christians and hence he is christian. I also reject these definitions.

2. Real christians, but who are either very immature or on a wrong path.
Such persons in principle follow Jesus and believe in Him but they misunderstand many things and fail to realize their actions. They hurt others, insult others, lie, do not ask for forgivness, they do not love but have a lack of love, etc.
Such persons are hard to distinguish from false christians. One only can hope that they realize some day their actions and change. If not, it will depend on the degree of "wrongliness". God will judge.

3. False christians.
These people claim to be christians but are not. They talk like christians and try to behave like christians but they are not. They do not now God in their hearts. Sometimes they even prosecute real christians in the "name of God". This is not an unusual case: When Jesus lived, his biggest opponents were the religious people, the "official believers". They hated Jesus. In medieval times so-called christians inside the Roman Catholic Church killed hundreds and thousands of people, often in the most evil way this world knows. They killed non-christians and christians.

One might argue now: how do I know that these evil persons were not "immature christians"? I do not know. God will judge. But my personal opinion is: someone who does such evil things cannot be a christian.
Jesus commented clearly about such persons: Luk 13:26-27 "But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ "

The atrocities and genocide in the Bible ordered by Yahweh, is a Christian following it a real Christian?

LordReed:


Has anyone ever gone to a court and won a case by saying "god told me"?

I gave same question to Muslims that claim Muhammad didn't plagiarized nor copy stories in the Bible but claim it was revealed to him by god.

Can this claim be valid in court today or in a logical ground.

LordReed:


Has anyone ever gone to a court and won a case by saying "god told me"?

I think there is a misunderstanding. I was using the analogy, i.e. a court session, to explain this issue about evidences, God etc.
On the one hand there is the issue about evidence, God, etc. and on the other hand there is the analogy, where e.g. a crime is investigated and the judge has to judge about that.

It makes no sense to mix these two things. Of course it makes no sense to say "God told me" at court!

---

There are many interesting points which came out of this thread, but I would like to come back to the initial post.

When I introduced the term "myths of atheism" my point was to highlight the difference between two types of atheists:

1. Those who choose their world view based on thinking and a deliberate decision. They know that they do not know everything and that they might be wrong. They are able to discuss with other persons without offending them. They are able to compare world views philosophically and logically and see all advantages and disadvantages. Most importantly they realize that their world view and any world view is based on axioms.

2. Those who think that they are 100% right and it is impossible that they could be wrong. They assume a right to offend others and arrogantly judge about other world views. They are incapable to philosophically compare world views, because they are unable to "see" their world view and its set of axioms from a higher, independent perspective. Therefore they judge other world views based(!) on their world view, which of course makes no sense.

From this second group usually "myths" arise, i.e. assumptions or conclusions which are based on obvious or hidden internal errors. This is a consequence of their inability to "see" their own world view from a higher perspective.

alxb19:


I think there is a misunderstanding. I was using the analogy, i.e. a court session, to explain this issue about evidences, God etc.
On the one hand there is the issue about evidence, God, etc. and on the other hand there is the analogy, where e.g. a crime is investigated and the judge has to judge about that.

It makes no sense to mix these two things. Of course it makes no sense to say "God told me" at court!

---

There are many interesting points which came out of this thread, but I would like to come back to the initial post.

When I introduced the term "myths of atheism" my point was to highlight the difference between two types of atheists:

1. Those who choose their world view based on thinking and a deliberate decision. They know that they do not know everything and that they might be wrong. They are able to discuss with other persons without offending them. They are able to compare world views philosophically and logically and see all advantages and disadvantages. Most importantly they realize that their world view and any world view is based on axioms.

2. Those who think that they are 100% right and it is impossible that they could be wrong. They assume a right to offend others and arrogantly judge about other world views. They are incapable to philosophically compare world views, because they are unable to "see" their world view and its set of axioms from a higher, independent perspective. Therefore they judge other world views based(!) on their world view, which of course makes no sense.

From this second group usually "myths" arise, i.e. assumptions or conclusions which are based on obvious or hidden internal errors. This is a consequence of their inability to "see" their own world view from a higher perspective.

Well, the only myth you've mentioned so far is basically one that had very limited exposure such that nobody here can even relate. Can you give us more?

-----

To continue, please see the next thread in Nairaland-Forum ("The 5 Myths Of Atheism Uncovered, Part 2":

https://www.nairaland.com/5440495/5-myths-atheism-uncovered-part

This thread here I will not contribute further but you are of course welcome to continue to discuss.

-----

LordReed:


Gravity and inertia are words we use to describe a set of physical phenomena not the phenomena themselves so you cannot plug and unplug them, they just are. You may device tests to see which phenomena is at work in a given circumstance but it does not mean you are unplugging or plugging them in.

If there is a something responsible for it all then further testing should reveal what it is and then we can describe it. How do you propose we test then?

How do we test for X?
When you are ready, I won't approach like a theist, and you shouldn't approach like an atheist, we would see things without sentiments. When you are ready, let me know. All the best.

Blabbermouth:

How do we test for X?
When you are ready, I won't approach like a theist, and you shouldn't approach like an atheist, we would see things without sentiments. When you are ready, let me know. All the best.

Are you asking how unknown qualities are tested?

LordReed:

Are you asking how unknown qualities are tested?

No, conviction from facts and evidences.

Blabbermouth:

No, conviction from facts and evidences.

Go ahead and present them.

LordReed:


Go ahead and present them.

On another thread, a new one. I will mention you {it is wiser to catch your preys in one attack}
Ps: Every single attribute of X will/must be backed up with facts and evidence.

tintingz:


Projection fallacy.

"PROJECTION FALLACY"

Says the unintelligent ones due to their low sense of thinking!

But the students trained by Jesus {the greatest teacher of all times} pay rapt attention to ACTIONS much more than WORDS, that's why we can easily draw your thoughts out like deep waters from the innermost part of your hearts! Proverbs 20:5

Maximus69:


"PROJECTION FALLACY"

Says the unintelligent ones due to their low sense of thinking!

But the students trained by Jesus {the greatest teacher of all times} pay rapt attention to ACTIONS much more than WORDS, that's why we can easily draw your thoughts out like deep waters from the innermost part of your hearts! Proverbs 20:5

You can't possibly know every mind of Atheists, you don't even know me.

You're just projecting nonsense.

tintingz:


You can't possibly know every mind of Atheists, you don't even know me.

You're just projecting nonsense.

That's true!

Unlike our Master, Lord and King Jesus Christ who can read hearts, we {his followers} can only read your hearts by thoroughly and carefully examining your actions!

We're sure that most of you are advocates of atheism not because you have anything to speak convincingly in support of it, but due to so many factors like hypocrisy of religious title chiefs, injustice, untold suffering of innocent ones and genocide often cause by FALSE religion. For instance, after a careful survey of countries where atheism is fast growing, ISRAEL is one of them! Why? Because the Jewish Rabbis want to discard Jesus of Nazareth for claiming to be their Messiah. Yet from all indications, it's impossible for anyone to claim he is the Messiah now that the foundational twelve tribes aren't together anymore!

We try as much as possible to speak intelligently with some of you, and guess what? Majority of those who listen to us do become Jehovah's Witnesses!

Of course they give it a careful consideration and after seeing the benefits of true Christianity they can't just hold those tears of joy as they often say repeatedly "thank you for coming to help us".

So even if ATHEISM is deep rooted in the minds of lawless people, it's just an illusion in the minds of right thinking persons who knows that "intelligent creatures like humans can't live together in peace and security without the guidance from a higher intelligent being (GOD)! Ecclesiastes 4:1,8:9 compared to Jeremiah 10:23

Maximus69:


That's true!

Unlike our Master, Lord and King Jesus Christ who can read hearts, we {his followers} can only read your hearts by thoroughly and carefully examining your actions!

We're sure that most of you are advocates of atheism not because you have anything to speak convincingly in support of it, but due to so many factors like hypocrisy of religious title chiefs, injustice, untold suffering of innocent ones and genocide often cause by FALSE religion. For instance, after a careful survey of countries where atheism is fast growing, ISRAEL is one of them! Why? Because the Jewish Rabbis want to discard Jesus of Nazareth for claiming to be their Messiah. Yet from all indications, it's impossible for anyone to claim he is the Messiah now that the foundational twelve tribes aren't together anymore!

We try as much as possible to speak intelligently with some of you, and guess what? Majority of those who listen to us do become Jehovah's Witnesses!

Of course they give it a careful consideration and after seeing the benefits of true Christianity they can't just hold those tears of joy as they often say repeatedly "thank you for coming to help us".

So even if ATHEISM is deep rooted in the minds of lawless people, it's just an illusion in the minds of right thinking persons who knows that "intelligent creatures like humans can't live together in peace and security without the guidance from a higher intelligent being (GOD)! Ecclesiastes 4:1,8:9 compared to Jeremiah 10:23

Your delusion is alarming. My goodness!

tintingz:


Your delusion is alarming. My goodness!

Orderliness begats Goodness!

ATHEISM can't sustain orderliness!

So the irony in you is anticipating GOODNESS, in the absence of ORDERLINESS!

Maximus69:


Orderliness begats Goodness!

ATHEISM can't sustain orderliness!

So the irony in you is anticipating GOODNESS, in the absence of ORDERLINESS!

Oh my days!

[img]https://media1./images/0f78af841f453545a036b6cceb3620cc/tenor.gif[/img]

We know false religion has given you guys much to chew, thinking you've got knowledge but your lecturers will bow when they see true Christians in action!

tintingz:


Oh my days!

[img]https://media1./images/0f78af841f453545a036b6cceb3620cc/tenor.gif[/img]

Maximus69:
We know false religion has given you guys much to chew, thinking you've got knowledge but your lecturers will bow when they see true Christians in action!

Arghhh!

[img]https://media1./images/83068d9d9c9602045c137236a2713f84/tenor.gif[/img]

tintingz:


Arghhh!

[img]https://media1./images/83068d9d9c9602045c137236a2713f84/tenor.gif[/img]

Bwahahahahaha!