QuietMynd:

Pic 1 is an APC, because it lacks the needed armour to make it an MRAP,
Pic 2: MRAP, because it has the needed armour to be one
Pic 3: i will call it an APC, because it doesnt meet the criteria to be called an MRAP, because an MRAP that can't withstand Mines is NO MRAP.

A MRAP is an APC with mine protection..........That simple!!

Before 2006 all MRAPs were called APCs.

The designation MRAP is a US term which has only been adopted by a few non US companies.

TayserMahri:


Am not going to waste any more time arguing with you for a second straight day over a mundane issue. Im going to leave these here:







That should keep you busy for the rest of the day!

Ok then so Striet group, Paramount, Denel, IAG, Milkor are wrong??

There will be no end to this argument, I guess.

TayserMahri:


Am not going to waste any more time arguing with you for a second straight day over a mundane issue. Im going to leave these here:







That should keep you busy for the rest of the day!

"They do not (usually) have a built-in primary armament that can engage a target." Same can be said for APCs, interesting enough all our APC/MRAPs are armed during deployment.

"Also, MRAPs are way lighter than IFVs/APCs and are not tracked" Wrong........even you posted so called APCs with wheels

So called MRAPs:
Also Cougar 6x6 : 23 tons
RG35 : 18 tons
Bushmaster: 15 tons

So called APC:
Boomerang: 22 Tons
Btr 80: 13 Tons
Patria : 15 Tons

MRAPs don't seem way lighter to me!!

"Most IFVs have the primary weapon as a 30mm to 40mm caliber Autocannon. This caliber of cannons can destroy most Main Battle Tanks"
Where did you get this bro?? this probably the most rubbish statement in your entire post.............In what world will a 30mm or 40mm destroy a modern battle tank?? It wouldn't even stop cold war era tanks.

"IFV itself is a weapons' platform and provide huge firepower. They are tracked vehicles just like Tanks." Again this is wrong on so many levels, Most modern IFVs are actually wheeled!

"(APCs)they usually have some primary armament that can engage targets, such as a 12.7 mm or 14.5mm heavy machine gun" Exactly like any MRAP on deployment.

"their primary purpose is to be used as "Battle Taxis" to ferry infantry troops onto the mission area, and keep them safe from small arms fire" Exactly like MRAPs

@TayserMahri

This basically sums it up:

MRAPS are a type of APC designed to be particularly survivable against improvised explosive devices (IEDs)
https://whitefleet.net/2015/12/01/military-vehicle-identification-guide-ground-vehicles/

Also the first jet that was vulnerable to bird strikes ....from behind !

Awesome little jet that could pack a punch. I had a front row seat to see many airstrikes made by this plane. They used to come in low 2 at a time using the terrain, pop up and do either a rocket attack or drop bombs. They would then turn around and do a gun run with the 30mm cannons. Both guns going sounded like a A-10 firing. Best place to see them in action was battle school at Lohatla. They were the go to aircraft for exercises ,because they were cheap to fly and had high availability. 4 to 6 would usually participate in a Bn. sized mechanised exercises. They hung around a lot longer than mirages or bucs.

They were not just there for AF training. They also had a vital role in training large mechanised formations ho to use camo and tactics to avoid getting hit from the air. We would have to hide Coy. and Platoon sized formations and then they would come looking for us and do mock runs on vehicles they could spot. The first guys to be taken out had some "corrective PT" coming their way !
It was amazing to see how a company with a couple of dozen vehicles could just disappear no more than 50m from you in the bush.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5dIFyq9rkk

GreenandGold:
The Aermacchi MB-326BK locally known as the Atlas Impala. The SAAF oparated 260 of these and 220 were manufactured in South Africa. Flew hundreds of sorties in Angola, dropped dozens of bombs (sorry Namibians) and it was the very first jet I saw flying in the 90s, it flew very low and inverted over our house and could see the pilot's legs.


Sweet childhood memories

SA Police Special Task Force. Rural/semi rural operations.

QuietMynd:

Pic 1 is an APC, because it lacks the needed armour to make it an MRAP,
Pic 2: MRAP, because it has the needed armour to be one
Pic 3: i will call it an APC, because it doesnt meet the criteria to be called an MRAP, because an MRAP that can't withstand Mines is NO MRAP.

Pic 1 for me is a MRAP even if some sources refer it to as APC. I can see a semblance of a V-shaped hull and it seems to be made specifically for the police, judging from the emergency flashing lights at the top. There is a reason why I am sympathetic to someone calling it APC as I will explain later.

Pic 2 in agreement.

Pic 3 is a MRAP. It can withstand land mines, its V-shaped hull and the high ground clearance. Im not sure why you think it cannot withstand mines/IEDs.

jln115:

Ok then so Striet group, Paramount, Denel, IAG, Milkor are wrong??

jln115:


"They do not (usually) have a built-in primary armament that can engage a target." Same can be said for APCs, interesting enough all our APC/MRAPs are armed during deployment.

"Also, MRAPs are way lighter than IFVs/APCs and are not tracked" Wrong........even you posted so called APCs with wheels

So called MRAPs:
Also Cougar 6x6 : 23 tons
RG35 : 18 tons
Bushmaster: 15 tons

So called APC:
Boomerang: 22 Tons
Btr 80: 13 Tons
Patria : 15 Tons

MRAPs don't seem way lighter to me!!

"Most IFVs have the primary weapon as a 30mm to 40mm caliber Autocannon. This caliber of cannons can destroy most Main Battle Tanks"
Where did you get this bro?? this probably the most rubbish statement in your entire post.............In what world will a 30mm or 40mm destroy a modern battle tank?? It wouldn't even stop cold war era tanks.

"IFV itself is a weapons' platform and provide huge firepower. They are tracked vehicles just like Tanks." Again this is wrong on so many levels, Most modern IFVs are actually wheeled!

"(APCs)they usually have some primary armament that can engage targets, such as a 12.7 mm or 14.5mm heavy machine gun" Exactly like any MRAP on deployment.

"their primary purpose is to be used as "Battle Taxis" to ferry infantry troops onto the mission area, and keep them safe from small arms fire" Exactly like MRAPs

jln115:
@TayserMahri

This basically sums it up:

MRAPS are a type of APC designed to be particularly survivable against improvised explosive devices (IEDs)
https://whitefleet.net/2015/12/01/military-vehicle-identification-guide-ground-vehicles/

They call those hair splitting arguments. You want distinctions down to the finest level which is not only impractical in the real world but a joke. Im going to make the FINAL attempt to help you see the point. APCs were ORIGINALLY designed for use by armies in CONVENTIONAL warfare for the role you know them for (luckily no disagreement about that) which is as battle taxis. For that reason they were armored enough to withstand direct fire from heavy enemy artillery. They had very low-lying bellies (cog) because they needed stability in all kinds of terrain. (MRAPS are the exact opposite of this).

Now, MRAPs emerged as a replacement for JEEPS and HUMVEES (high mobility multipurpose wheeled vehicles) after these proved too vulnerable to IEDs in the newly emergent ASSYMETRIC WARFARE. Jeeps and Humvees WERE NOT primary transport vehicles in the same sense as APCs. Instead they were PATROL, RECONNAISANCE and SECURITY vehicles. As I said, they became too vulnerable with the proliferation of IEDs and had to be replaced by MRAPs.

Up to this point you can see there was no relationship whatsoever between APCs and MRAPs. If you cant see that then I have to leave you to your immutable ways!

So lets break it down:

APCs: Conventional warfare,,, primary role transport.
MRAP: Unconventional warfare,,, primary role patrol/ security/ reconnaissance.
Both had independent origins. You may need to do some reading on this.

Now, here’s the catch! Over the years, MRAPs have been used for transport around insurgent areas because OBVIOUSLY you get to freely run over mines at will – that’s their primary job, to run over mines. That does not make them transport vehicles (effectively APCs) per se. Yet this is where this whole disaster is coming from because anything that carries troops was traditionally considered an APC, so to you and many others out there including and especially the apartheid govt who were obviously too busy creating something to shield them from IEDs to notice that they were targeting a completely different kind of enemy, effectively asymetric warfare/counterinsurgency/ bush wars and no longer conventional warfare and hence no longer APCs! They simply called them APCs, whether down to lethargy, a lack of imagination, or simply to save time. That is obviously wrong because I have shown that these two sets of machines evolved to fill completely different niches/roles. If they had been keener they would have noticed the need for a more befitting name that distinguished casspirs and co from traditional APCs, like the USA did with MRAP. This bug of calling all MRAPs APCs MUST have its roots deep in apartheid. We can forgive all the non Southy companies for falling for it but definitely not the SA companies because they have misled too many over the years to the extent that even grown men cant trace the origins of the vehicles to know the difference (and this is where I told QuietMynd I am sympathetic to his reference of the proforce in 1st pic as APC). The other thing is that niches sometimes overlap, and this is why your hair-splitting arguments are a joke!

The link you shared has absolutely no clue about the evolution of the armaments and that’s why all its done is STATE this does this, this does that, this has this and that..etc, eventually culminating in the all-time hall of fame joke: MRAPS are a type of APC designed to be particularly survivable against improvised explosive devices. If you sat this person down and asked them to explain the origins of the two types of vehicles he most likely cannot even tell. The only thing he knows is that, quite casually, MRAPs have a thick armour and carry soldiers and that outrightly makes them APCs, so MRAPs are effectively a subset of APCs, but then he continues to say; As IED resistance becomes more standard, the line between an MRAP and a “normal” APC can be somewhat blurry, as the two serve very similar roles. In many cases, the distinction may not be of critical importance… as if APCs have anything to do with IEDs!! If anything, by this, he is saying that APCs are becoming MRAPs, a direct contradiction to his initial assertion that MRAPs are a type of APCs.

Long story short; any similarity you see between MRAPs and APCs is just a haywire and completely coincidental example of convergent evolution in warfare. Different origins, chaotically overlapping roles.

TADA!

TayserMahri:


Pic 1 for me is a MRAP even if some sources refer it to as APC. I can see a semblance of a V-shaped hull and it seems to be made specifically for the police, judging from the emergency flashing lights at the top. There is a reason why I am sympathetic to someone calling it APC as I will explain later.

Pic 2 in agreement.

Pic 3 is a MRAP. It can withstand land mines, its V-shaped hull and the high ground clearance. Im not sure why you think it cannot withstand mines/IEDs.

You said it was an APC?? Now changing your mind again?

TayserMahri:






They call those hair splitting arguments. You want distinctions down to the finest level which is not only impractical in the real world but a joke. Im going to make the FINAL attempt to help you see the point. APCs were ORIGINALLY designed for use by armies in CONVENTIONAL warfare for the role you know them for (luckily no disagreement about that) which is as battle taxis. For that reason they were armored enough to withstand direct fire from heavy enemy artillery. They had very low-lying bellies (cog) because they needed stability in all kinds of terrain. (MRAPS are the exact opposite of this).

Now, MRAPs emerged as a replacement for JEEPS and HUMVEES (high mobility multipurpose wheeled vehicles) after these proved too vulnerable to IEDs in the newly emergent ASSYMETRIC WARFARE. Jeeps and Humvees WERE NOT primary transport vehicles in the same sense as APCs. Instead they were PATROL, RECONNAISANCE and SECURITY vehicles. As I said, they became too vulnerable with the proliferation of IEDs and had to be replaced by MRAPs.

Up to this point you can see there was no relationship whatsoever between APCs and MRAPs. If you cant see that then I have to leave you to your immutable ways!

So lets break it down:

APCs: Conventional warfare,,, primary role transport.
MRAP: Unconventional warfare,,, primary role patrol/ security/ reconnaissance.
Both had independent origins. You may need to do some reading on this.

Now, here’s the catch! Over the years, MRAPs have been used for transport around insurgent areas because OBVIOUSLY you get to freely run over mines at will – that’s their primary job, to run over mines. That does not make them transport vehicles (effectively APCs) per se. Yet this is where this whole disaster is coming from because anything that carries troops was traditionally considered an APC, so to you and many others out there including and especially the apartheid govt who were obviously too busy creating something to shield them from IEDs to notice that they were targeting a completely different kind of enemy, effectively asymetric warfare/counterinsurgency/ bush wars and no longer conventional warfare and hence no longer APCs! They simply called them APCs, whether down to lethargy, a lack of imagination, or simply to save time. That is obviously wrong because I have shown that these two sets of machines evolved to fill completely different niches/roles. If they had been keener they would have noticed the need for a more befitting name that distinguished casspirs and co from traditional APCs, like the USA did with MRAP. This bug of calling all MRAPs APCs MUST have its roots deep in apartheid. We can forgive all the non Southy companies for falling for it but definitely not the SA companies because they have misled too many over the years to the extent that even grown men cant trace the origins of the vehicles to know the difference (and this is where I told QuietMynd I am sympathetic to his reference of the proforce in 1st pic as APC). The other thing is that niches sometimes overlap, and this is why your hair-splitting arguments are a joke!

The link you shared has absolutely no clue about the evolution of the armaments and that’s why all its done is STATE this does this, this does that, this has this and that..etc, eventually culminating in the all-time hall of fame joke: MRAPS are a type of APC designed to be particularly survivable against improvised explosive devices. If you sat this person down and asked them to explain the origins of the two types of vehicles he most likely cannot even tell. The only thing he knows is that, quite casually, MRAPs have a thick armour and carry soldiers and that outrightly makes them APCs, so MRAPs are effectively a subset of APCs, but then he continues to say; As IED resistance becomes more standard, the line between an MRAP and a “normal” APC can be somewhat blurry, as the two serve very similar roles. In many cases, the distinction may not be of critical importance… as if APCs have anything to do with IEDs!! If anything, by this, he is saying that APCs are becoming MRAPs, a direct contradiction to his initial assertion that MRAPs are a type of APCs.

Long story short; any similarity you see between MRAPs and APCs is just a haywire and completely coincidental example of convergent evolution in warfare. Different origins, chaotically overlapping roles.

TADA!

Nice write up bro:

To bad actual defence companies disagree with you

Refer to pics:

shadowprimezero:
NAF field doctor attending to a refugee

What's this camera show off for.. ? Very pathetic.

Rhodesian SAS in an operation against Mugabe's forces.

@TayserMahri

I guess Defenceweb is also wrong for calling the Ezugwu MRAP an APC??

Nigeria unveils new APC

"The Defence Industries Corporation of Nigeria (DICON) has unveiled a new locally developed armoured personnel carrier, the Ezugwu."

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/nigeria-unveils-new-apc/

We out here beefing..while these two out there romancing..

Lesson..E-warrior ain't a job

Nigerian army locally made vehicle.

Please what is this called?

kabe1:
Nigerian army locally made vehicle.
Please what is this called?

ipv 2

Odunayaw:
ipv 2

prototype
IPV2

Odunayaw:
ipv 2

Thanks.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this with Defenceweb.co.za and Nigeria.

I think Defenceweb, the South-African defence news web always gives favourable coverage to Nigeria.

They seem to support Nigeria's defence industry a lot with positive news coverage. I noticed this very well with the Proforce Ara MRAP.

Big ups to them.

The Mig 25 . still flight in algerian AF .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ41DAzuDQY

NA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irFsuWyRWO4

How 50 year old weapons were revived! In the late 80s the French Rothschilds owned the richest mine in the world,Panguna in Bougainville then part of PNG. After a few years of environmental degradation the Bougainvilleans,Melanasians not Papuans had had enough;a war began that killed 15% of the population. For weapons they turned to abandoned rusted out WW2 equipment.

While this alone was remarkable just before the turn of the millennium, what is absolutely astonishing was that the weapons had been “resurrected” from the WWII battlefields.

https://wwiiafterwwii./2015/06/24/1990s-bougainville-civil-war-wwii-weapons/

It is absolutely astonishing that this Japanese AA gun still functioned after five decades in the humid jungle. None the less, it did. The Bougainville fighters scrounged all over the island’s forests and beaches for Japanese 25mm ammunition, which had been out of production worldwide for almost half a century by then. Each round was inspected and hand-cleaned. This functioning relic was amusing to WWII historians when photos of it began to surface worldwide in the late 1990s. It was less amusing to Papuan soldiers, as the WWII 25mm rounds could still penetrate the skin of their modern vehicles

Damn,just...remember also this was the pre internet era. They did all this by trial and error-imagine when their homemade improvements failed. I can assumt significant casualties from that alone.

(A Bougainville Revolutionary Army member with a AN/M3 loaded and ready for action in 1997. The end of the barrel has been repaired locally. The fighter said that the gun had been recovered “from the turret on an American bomber”.)

You couldn't pay me enough to squeeze off a round!

Look at that remade Bren gun!

(This gun is hard to figure out.[b] The main (rusty) body is a Bren light machine gun, as used by the Australians on the island during WWII. The forward section of the barrel and the flash suppressor are locally-made by the Bougainville fighters. [/b]However the Bren was clip fed, and could not accept belted ammunition. It appears that the action and trigger assembly are possibly from a M1919, grafted into the Bren. The M1919 used the fabric feed belt as shown. Another possibility mentioned is the firing action of a Yokosuka Type 97 aircraft gun, which was the 7.7mm weapon carried by the Japanese “Zero” fighter and “Val” dive-bomber, both of which were used over Bougainville in WWII. The rebel fighters were proud of their creations – [b]note that the rusty front sight of the Bren has been welded back onto the new forebarrel, in the proper offset-left location. This was probably more for pride as accuracy of this contraption must have been t[

/b]errible.)

Never underestimate what determination can achieve-Bougainville is having an independence referendum very soon

Somali Army lightning brigade

SANDF Peacekeepers on patrol in Northern Kivu, DRC. 2019

jln115:

Nice write up bro:

To bad actual defence companies disagree with you

Refer to pics:

jln115:
@TayserMahri

I guess Defenceweb is also wrong for calling the Ezugwu MRAP an APC??

Nigeria unveils new APC

"The Defence Industries Corporation of Nigeria (DICON) has unveiled a new locally developed armoured personnel carrier, the Ezugwu."

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/nigeria-unveils-new-apc/

I literally cannot be any more clearer on where this confusion came from. So what if Defenceweb a mere SA website calls it a APC but the actual Nigerian manufacturer call it a MRAP?

check this video to see what an actual APC is, looks like, and does.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxcAKhSuoo

TayserMahri:




I literally cannot be any more clearer on where this confusion came from. So what if Defenceweb a mere SA website calls it a APC but the actual Nigerian manufacturer call it a MRAP?

check this video to see what an actual APC is, looks like, and does.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxcAKhSuoo

So you don't care that actual defence websites and actual defence companies refer to MRAPs as APCs but rather you will refer to a video posted by some random dude on YouTube?? Come on dude!!! Cut the crap don't go full Sammy on me!!

jln115:

So you don't care that actual defence websites and actual defence companies refer to MRAPs as APCs but rather you will refer to a video posted by some random dude on YouTube?? Come on dude!!! Cut the crap don't go full Sammy on me!!

I literally have nothing else to tell you Pistorius! Apart from what I told you before and effects of BEE!

TayserMahri:


I literally have nothing else to tell you Pistorius! Apart from what I told you before and effects of BEE!

so striet group, IAG, Paramount are all wrong according to some Kenyan??

Cool story bro!!

jln115:
so striet group, IAG, Paramount are all wrong according to some Kenyan??

Cool story bro!!

What happened to agreeing to disagree? I told you from the beginning this argument is no different from the destroyer-frigate one. Countries will have different names. I get the feeling you just want to argue bro. We can talk about other military stuff this topic has become stale.

TayserMahri:


What happened to agreeing to disagree? I told you from the beginning this argument is no different from the destroyer-frigate one. Countries will have different names. I get the feeling you just need to talk bro. We can talk about other military stuff this topic has become stale.

Except there's nothing to agree or disagree about, since for all intensive purposes MRAPs are APCs..... They fulfil the exact same role, doctrine may differ from country to country hence you see quite a few IFV/APC platforms vs more specific MRAP platforms/ light APC platforms......

jln115:
Except there's nothing to agree or disagree about, since for all intensive purposes MRAPs are APCs..... They fulfil the exact same role, doctrine my differ from country to country hence you see quite a few IFV/APC platforms vs more specific MRAP platforms/ light APC platforms......

Im disagreeing with you on a lot of things ofcourse. I dont think I have to state them again. From the specific origins of MRAPs vs APCs to how they fulfill their roles. APCs have a different way of dealing with mines (tough armor) vs MRAPs use the V-shaped hull to achieve the same through deflection. Its not even about doctrine but the theatre. APCs are the conventional army transports while MRAPs are the latter day high mobility multipurpose vehicles.. etc.