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If Nothing Can Exist Without A Creator, So What Created God? / What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question / Who Created God? - An Invalid Question (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 5:22pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
TheArranger:Sometimes a psychiatrist will need to talk to a mad man to keep him calm from his state of agitation. |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:23pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:I do not understand this. Is it not the truth that no one really knows anything preceding the big bang, and that even the big bang itself is as mythical as "God said"? |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 5:26pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka: It's said to be infinite. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 5:30pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
tintingz:You mean infinitely dense? I am not disagreeing with you: we are just taking a logical walk through this together. Back to my question: Now, this expansion occurred almost 14 Billion years ago. So the question is, do you think this "something of high density" had existed thousands of Billions of years before the big bang (stable) OR it existed momentarily just before the Big Bang (unstable)? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 5:36pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:I am not arguing as a theist, I am just taking a joy ride through the maze of the current understanding of science. The claim of science is that the universe started expanding from an infinitely dense gravitational singleton almost 14 billion years away. At least we have a starting point (Gravitational singleton) Starting from this singleton, there are just ONLY two options: and nothing stops us from walking down the path the two will lead us without taking a side. The two options are: 1. The gravitational singleton had always existed 2. The gravitational singleton had not always existed Both have there implication...don't you think so? |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:45pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:I am certain scientists state this as an hypothesis, and not as a theory, since they usually qualify it with, "as far as we can tell". Theists might hear this as the equivalent of their belief in creationism, which it is not. No one knows what happened 14billion years ago Shade, and even the 14billion is a work in progress, as in humans using our God given senses to do science to acquire better understandings. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 5:53pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:Not quite: If we live in a 1D world, a number of inferences can be obtained i. Each person will think he is alone in this world ii. Each person can move ONLY in a straight line iii. When another "line crosses" our line (from their own 1D space), we will see such as a "dot" on our line and well still think we are alone Because of these: i. 2D will sound illogical because, wel not be alone in the world ii. 2D will sound illogical because it assumes we can move in every complex directions in the 2D world iii. 2D will sound illogical because we cant imagine that other 1D spaces can exist other than our own. If everyone was a dot in a 1D world, we would think that only 3 people exist in the world. If everyone was a line in a 1D world, we would think we exist alone bounded by only 2 dots (Please take a peace of paper and check this out) However, we in 3D can perfectly comprehend this. The Implication: Science had assumed that there exist only Energy/Mass, Space and Time. If just one more dimension other than defined by these three exist, it would be impossible to use our knowledge o science to unravel it. The fact that we cant prove it does not mean another dimension doesn't exist. The bible had always spoken about the Spiritual Dimension: thus the understandable problem of those who reject its possibility as a valid conclusion from their observation. So the question is, what would be a sufficient evidence for a person who lives in a 1D world to believe that a 2D world exist. Now if he concludes that his judgemt is correct based on his observation ,would that make his judgement correct? 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:01pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:I just decided to go with the prevailing theory : my other option would have been to say "In the Begining, God created the Heavens and the Earth..." This your people will then ask for my evidence (of which the Bible is out of it) and then accuse me of being unscientific, illogical and nonsesical in believing what science has not proven. Don't forget that many atheist take theories to be scientific facts (Evolution, Big bang, NDE etc) And you know your people, they want SCIENCE and LOGIC and DEDUCTIONS etc. So, I am only dancing according to their kind of music. |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 6:01pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
I think you are simply imagining living in a 1D world and inferring what a 2D world might seem like, and which you yourself said might be difficult, and which I said might not be believed unless evidence were provided. How for instance does a 1D world imply "thinking one is alone", or "move in a straight line"? Do you not think this because of your own assumptions about what a 1D world might seem like? Others might assume different, is my point. shadeyinka: |
Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 6:01pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Hello. I'm afraid I'm unaware of this error that you allude to here. Could you explain to me what it is that you believe that tintingz demonstrated me to be in error about? |
Re: Who Created God? by Vic2Ree(m): 6:02pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
TheArranger:He's dying to have the last word just so he can give people the (false) impression that he is making sense. People like him full NL. They believe they are right no matter what and will argue with you to the bitter end, even if it is a petty argument with no value. |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 6:09pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:My own position is that Biblical Creationism is ancient science and anyone who accepts it as a literally true today is very unscientific indeed by todays standard, for they completely disregard with their senses, all discoveries made since "In the beginning" was written. It is not sensible to argue against science (the use of the senses) with "beliefs". People who use their god given senses will find it impossible to believe unless evidence for the belief is provided. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:20pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:Evidence for believe is by grace. Not everyone is privileged to have it. There had been Atheists who converted because they had a compelling NDE experience. Some experienced a miracle while for others, they had the Holy Spirit convince them directly through their conscience. And sometimes, God leaves the man who had shut his eyes to the truth to his own folly. I'm the world where knowledge has increased, it's natural for the love of many (even believers) to go cold! |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 6:31pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Well, this is completely contradictory to the use of the senses. Why, for instances would those who have not been given the grace, believe it? shadeyinka:You left out atheist converts like me. The increase in my knowledge is what makes me a theist, and not the lack of it as you suggest. Ignorance, cannot be the evidence for an Almighty God, and if ignorance ever does become the evidence for God, then those worshipping it need to read their Bible and reconsider.
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Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:31pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:Please don't mind him. They go to web pages they don't have a full comprehension of the science and they come here to exhibit a false superiority over those who cannot use the same science to defend themselves. I have just simply slowed him down so as to know the meaning of what weapon he is using against another person. These laws actually show that something beyond the universe must have activated the making of the universe. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:38pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:Our understanding of the 3D world actually help us in comprehending lower dimensions and we can judge without being biased. We all will arrive at the same conclusion. Try it out with a paper and pencil to see for yourself In a 1D world, everyone is constrained to move in a straight line. Any deviation from this will produce a 2D. In a 1D world, every one would either be a point or a line. In a 1D world, everyone would be able to see at most 2 other people in the world (even if there are thousands) In a 1D world, the other 2 people we see in our world would be point objects (even if they are 1D/line objects) |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 6:48pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Anything I come up with about a 1D world is pure speculation and hypothesis, is my point here, and it would be very silly of me to insist that what I think is true would prevail in a 1D world. It would be equally stupid of me to make claims about any other world apart from the one I live in and have experienced with my own senses. Hear Christ warning me to give Caesar his due and limit myself to what I sense instead of idle speculating on the insignificant and irrelevant.
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Re: Who Created God? by jamesid29(m): 7:12pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Mr shadeyinka, there are points in life a man should know he is going too far. One of those points is when you are willing to do whatever it takes to win regardless of the cost. As far as I can tell , the only reason u dragged I and mr Ihedinobi3 is to put us down so u can lift urself up. That's fine , but like I told tingz, I believe u also have a bit of misunderstanding of what a singularity is and how it relates to the inflationary big bang model. It is well sir...I could be wrong but I believe u need to relax and don't loose urself. even if u don't win the argument, God will still remain God and His resurrection for man's sins will still be valid. 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 7:38pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:I see. Well, the law of conservation of energy holds that in an isolated system, the total amount of energy is always constant. He tried to leverage this for the self-existence of energy. The law does not hold at all that energy can never be created or destroyed, only that in a hypothetical isolated system, it cannot be. That makes sense. But in both open and closed systems, energy can be "created" and "destroyed," since the total amount of energy in such systems is not constant at all: it could be increasing or reducing. And the universe is not an isolated system, as the change within it proves. As for his appeal to the law of logic, that law actually states that something cannot arise out of nothing and nothing can begin to exist without cause. The keywords are "arise" and "begin." These statements are truisms. They are not false at all. However, God did not ever arise into existence or begin to exist. He has always existed without beginning and end. His existence then does not violate logic, it just supercedes it because while logic cannot fault such a mode of existence, it simply cannot comprehend it. The alternative to self-existence is infinite regress, but that is a nonsense concept, because if there is a chain, then it must have a beginning and an end. Whatever is at the beginning of the chain of infinite regress must therefore be self-existent. If we claim that the chain terminates in itself, then we create a logical absurdity where a child births its own parent. In other words, there is no true logical alternative to self-existence to explain existence at all. A God does exist because everything else does exist. The real debate is who the true God is, and even that is a no-brainer. In other words, his appeal to those laws falls flat on its face. He did not succeed at all at demonstrating any error in my arguments. I just don't enjoy wasting my time and energy on meaningless arguments. It is enough for me to answer questions about the Christian Hope, but I don't owe anyone a change of heart, whether of theirs or of mine. |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 7:59pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka: I have answered this before, you keep asking same question. I said the density is said to be infinite. I still don't get where you're heading to. |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 8:00pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Red herring. |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 8:02pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3: Fallacies. That is your answer. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:27pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:In your case, it may be your conscience touched by God as you studied more. After all people like Hawkins, Dawkins and Spielberg studied too but arrived at a different conclusion. I of course wasn't suggesting that knowledge moves one away from God: but it a convenient excuse to replace God with the "God" that can be touched and felt (Science). Knowledge should actually lead one to God (if one is sincere and humble). At a point, we note that there are several gaps in our theories, postulates and results. One must also know that it is impossible to use Science to prove God. It is also easy for comfortable living to lead one away from God. That is the problem of the western world today. Satan introduces distractions through fun and time wasters etc Unfortunately, we Christians aren't showing a bright enough light; Coupled with false shepherds and false disciples. We actually give the uncommitted an excuse to choose other alternatives 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 8:27pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3: Which law says energy can be created and destroyed? How's energy created and destroyed In an open and close system? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:29pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Vic2Ree:If you have contributed just one logical or Scientific information here, you could have been treated just a little seriously |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 8:32pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka: In what way can we know your God exist? Any demonstration or evidence? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:39pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
jamesid29:I'm so sorry you completely misunderstood me. I am on your side and I will never ever intentionally look down a brother in Christ. I was just of the opinion that tintinz doesn't understand the meaning/implication of the science he is quoting. If you strongly feel we differ on some fundamentals, I am still learning please PM me or if you want, I can PM you. I'm sorry my brother if I conveyed a negative impression. |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 8:53pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:God touched my intellectual understanding. 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:58pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:That was why I said "don't mind him: he doesn't understand the implications of the science he's quoting". Self existence of energy must account for why a gravitational singleton in the first place because it is illogical for energy to self condense in unit space without an external constraining forecast. Two, every form of energy we know seem to exist because of matter (from Nuclear, the electromagnetic, to electrical , Heat etc). Except there is an unknown form of energy, how can one account for the "self existence of energy". I completely agree with your explanation of the logic part of the discuss. Whatever initiated the change in the gravitational singleton must be outside it and therefore NOT a THING/SOMETHING. God supercede that logic. I completely agree with you that an infinite regress is impossible. There must therefore be an Uncaused First cause. If only tintinz can slow down rather that COPY-PASTE information, he should arrive at the same conclusion (if he is sincere). That's why I said, "don't mind him" I didn't know your background is this strong. Pls keep up the work! |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:06pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
tintingz:No sir! There were about 6 questions initially and you gave a summary as answer. I just decided that we take them one at a time. With that we can logically arrive at the best if not correct deductions by which our final decisions are made. I am trying to avoid arguments using the Socrates method. One simple question at a time by which at the end, a consensus would be made. The question again: Now, this expansion (of the universe) occurred almost 14 Billion years ago. So the question is, do you think this "something of high density" had existed thousands of Billions of years before the big bang (stable) OR it existed momentarily just before the Big Bang (unstable)? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:07pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
tintingz:No problem! Let's answer the questions one at a time. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:10pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
budaatum:Still ok by me as long as you were touched by God AND you responded to your conscience. 1 Like 1 Share |
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