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If Nothing Can Exist Without A Creator, So What Created God? / What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question / Who Created God? - An Invalid Question (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:13pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
tintingz:I promise you that you'll get your answer from me. Let's keep a single file for now. If at the end I didn't answer this question, I will specifically do justice to it. Na beg I beg o! |
Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 9:29pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Thank you for your kind words. I don't expect much good from those who oppose the Gospel, especially atheists, because it takes a willingness to violate reason and common sense to deny the existence of God. That is the definition of insanity. It cannot be cured by reasoning. I do often engage with such people, but only to answer meaningful questions and demonstrate hypocrisies in their position for the benefit of others. However, who knows but that your own witness might make the difference in one or two of their hearts and help them come to the Truth and be saved? So, keep working in the vineyard that you have been allotted. Cheers, friend. 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:54pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
Ihedinobi3:Love you Bro! You couldn't have said it better. I used to preach to Atheists in the past but they use the same tactics of scorning the message. No amount of explanation of the gospel make sense to them(actually their choice). I changed Strategy to explaining the reason behind to "faith" but to them it was just something worthy of open scorn. Right now, I have come to understand that they have categories within them 1. Those who like me are consciously serving their own master satan in evangelism and building up their fellow brethren 2. Those who are just Intellectually convinced about their choice of Atheism 3. The wannabe Atheists 4. Gnostic Atheists who rarely evangelise but hate the mention of God with a passion. 5. Agnostic Atheists who even though don't know the answer but yet claim an intellectual conviction that totally rule out God. I normally pray more for no. 2 for some of them are open to reason. For the others, I stay in the thread not strictly because of them but because of believers of weak faith or understanding. Thanks for coming up this thread. You are appreciated. Shalom. 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 11:41pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka: My goodness. [img]https://media1./images/fa7be96565d6a62208b61497b92576b7/tenor.gif[/img] This is the last time I'm answering this. The density is in infinite state, there was no time, due to very high or hot density it poured out the particles inside it causing an expansion we know as the big bang and our current universe. I don't know if the density was hot for billion of years or it happened for a short period of time, there was no time then and we can't possibly know(at least for now). |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 11:43pm On Oct 03, 2019 |
shadeyinka:@bolded, is that what agnostic atheism is? |
Re: Who Created God? by jamesid29(m): 4:10am On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka:It is all good my oga. I do not believe we differ on what really matters and I'm also still learning myself and I do not hold any exceptional knowledge. Matter of fact the more I learn, the more I realize the sheer amount of things I do not know. I'm also sorry if any part of what I wrote came of as offensive. . |
Re: Who Created God? by Vic2Ree(m): 4:18am On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Right back at you |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:57am On Oct 04, 2019 |
jamesid29:Good morning my Bro and Thank you so much for your understanding. I'm relieved. I still wouldn't mind if you pm me or I pm you to look at points of difference. Everyday we fine-tune our knowledge base to His glory. Shalom |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 6:59am On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:No it isn't a definition of "agnostic Atheists" it's a description of a class of agnostic Atheist |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 7:43am On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka: That will be contradicting on what agnostic atheism means. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:56am On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:Let's then take the two options available and go down the rabbit hole. I agree with you as per time as we know it doesn't exist (for time is measured relative to the creation of matter). That doesn't mean we cannot project forward or backward. So, let's first assume that: the density was hot for a very short time This would be like a state of an unstable stable equilibrium. 1. Do you think such a dense and unstable state can logicaly exist without an external constraining force supplying a vast amount of energy to form such dense state? (Logically a sudden change of state of a system should require a sudden change in energy state) After this, we'll look at the state where the gravitational singleton is assumed to have existed for billions of years. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:59am On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:I wasn't defining the term "agnostic Atheist" or saying what it means, I was only describing a class within the group. |
Re: Who Created God? by jamesid29(m): 9:33am On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka: No wahala boss... I agree we fine tune our knowledge everyday so I'm also open to learn new things from u. I'll send u a pm boss. Have a blessed day. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:51am On Oct 04, 2019 |
jamesid29:And you too have a wonderful day! I'll be expecting you then Shalom |
Re: Who Created God? by Ihedinobi3: 10:36am On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka:I appreciate your heart for the lost - even if they are wilfully lost too - and for the weak among us believers. The Lord does call us to love both. I only encourage you to protect yourself from them too, because the Bible does say, [6]"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. Matthew 7:6 NASB Apologetics is a spiritual ministry. It does help to bring some of the lost to Salvation, and it does protect the weak in faith among us, but it never eliminates free will. Everyone must still choose whether to believe the Gospel and be saved or not, and whether to listen to the Bible instead of the spurious ideas and theories that people flatter their intelligence with or not. It is a choice, just like you said. So, if I may be so bold, let me encourage you not to expect too much from those who have rejected reason and common sense in their bid to avoid the Truth. It is hard enough to bring a normal unbeliever to Salvation, an atheist - whatever the sort they may be - is not even remotely normal. Their antagonism toward the Lord is in the extreme. They may pretend to be honestly inquiring, but atheism is not an inquiry, it is an accusation of the Lord, and not a fair one by any standard. The atheist doubles as judge and plaintiff in a court of his own making. The evidence and arguments are all rigged in his favor, so that it is impossible to be right in the eyes of an atheist if you are in the Truth. A decent apologist would or should have a fair grasp of the philosophy, science, and history that plays into these debates, but they are always at risk of trusting these above the Bible in order to appear reasonable to atheists. That actually is where they lose the battle, although it does seem to recommend itself as the best way to win an atheist over to the Lord. That is why I am never pressed to defend the Lord to an atheist. I prefer to treat every good question they ask with respect and answer it with the Bible. I use philosophy, history, and science when they are needed only to demonstrate the hypocrisy and lies in atheism. They are no use to recommending the Bible's authority to such people. Besides, the Bible is an absolute authority that does not yield itself to challenge. It offers its claims on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. If anyone retains common sense - which is a common human characteristic regardless of one's faith in the Lord or lack thereof - the Bible is a natural explanation for what is observed in life around us. But if they reject common sense, then, obviously, the Bible is a waste of their time and energy unless they are attacking it. So, please, keep yourself safe even while you try to reason with them. Whatever you may see in them, remember that the choice to believe or not is not dependent on how well the Gospel is explained or how well the science works in your favor. Those who believe believe because they accept in their hearts the testimony of Creation around us and receive the authority of the Gospel and the Bible. Those who don't do not because they reject these things and twist them to fit their preferred attitude toward the Lord. Cheers, friend. |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 12:04pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Such person is not an agnostic atheists or better still doesn't understand what agnostic atheism means. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 12:17pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:No problem. But we encounter such occasionally on Nairaland. |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 12:48pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka: This is a quantum physics field, I'm not a physicist, I only know the basics. Now whether there was an external force or not, I don't know, even if we assume there is we can't possibly know what it is. To further answer your question, the density in this singularity was very high and due to chemical reactions or quantum fluctuations it rapidly expanded(big bang). The amount of energy became high, even if we assume some force or forces supply a vast amount of energy in this singularity such force will have to be a natural property which can be energy itself since energy cannot be created nor destroyed it can be transferred and transformed. We can make a claim the universe has always exist. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 1:00pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:We are on a logical quest: checking out what is reasonable when compared with which what we already know. We already know that which is highlighted in RED. What we need is a logic follow up of what is reasonable before the big bang. Mind you, it's not supposed to form a new theory from existing ones (that job probably belong to experts in quantum physics). In other words, I'm not asking you to "know" whether an external force exist or not. What I'm asking is a logical follow-up (it doesn't have to be the perfect answer) of the implication of a spontaneous existence of the gravitational singleton. Let's leave the answer of that to theoretical physicists. Back to the question: 1. Do you think (your opinion) such a dense and unstable state can logicaly exist without an external constraining force supplying a vast amount of energy to form such dense state? (Logically a sudden change of state of a system should require a sudden change in energy state) |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 1:11pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Of course yes, logically something can cause this dense whether external or internal. So? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 1:46pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:In other words (in the case we have a spontaneous creation of the singleton) something certainly OUTSIDE the gravitational singleton could be responsible for the sudden formation of the singleton. If you agree with this, we can move over to the next thought question (which deals with: if the singleton had existed for ages before the Big Bang as a gravitational singleton) |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 2:28pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Lol, even If I agree something outside it caused the big bang, aren't you going to tell us what it is and doesn't it require a cause too? Please your logic should cover everything. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 3:08pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
tintingz:The first is to have an agreement. We can talk of the cause of the cause....later. Don't forget, I've not inserted God into the equation. I have only used words like Force, Constraints, External Influence etc. Let's move on to the second implication of the the singleton self existing in an almost stable state (extremely slow internal change). As we know that if the singleton is unchanging (a constant), the big bang would never occur. Thus it's actually easy to see that the singleton couldn't have existed forever. So, let's now assume that: the density was hot for billions of years This would be like a state of stable equilibrium. If the gravitational singleton was perfectly stable, then the big bang would never had occured. So, we can logically assume a very slow change from a previous state into the form where we call it a "gravitational singleton" (well before the big bang ![]() Do you think (in the formation of such a dense stable state) that the singleton can change state without without violating the logical impossibility of an infinite regression? i.e. there was a changing causing Force which produced the gravitational singleton (over a long period of time) which later produced the universe which would later arrive at a state of maximum entropy millions of years from now. |
Re: Who Created God? by peggywebbs(f): 3:08pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
No matter the amount of explanations and testimonies people give concerning the existence of God. Atheist will still convince themselves otherwise. The bible says the foolishness of God is wiser than men. This same atheist will sit with their smartphones and be asking Christians questions they already have the answers to. They were born in religion and for some unfortunate experiences, they decided to blame God by rejecting his existence since he wasn't there to help them at their most critical time. If you are curious to know who created God or if he exists, you should be finding your way to explore space, confirm the existence of aliens and go through the ends of the world to find out the truth. Instead you people sit down lazy, arguing without any atom of intelligence just to make sense of your reason. The fact that you have questions that you have no knowledge of is definite proof that a God exists. Who designed the womb that is able to birth life. How is it that the air we breathe sustains us. Why do we have change in seasons. All these are supernatural. What is the supernatural, it is something that is beyond the human explanation. Isn't it obvious to you that man can only destroy but cannot create. If you tell me about invention I can slap you from here. Nothing lasts that we invent that doesn't need recharging. Why is it that you are not born with a socket or battery. If you want to know if God exists or who created God, theb you must be ready to leave science or logic and delve into the supernatural. Stop finding excuses not to repent. It is better to be safe than sorry. There is a reason you exist on this earth. You were not dropped by a rocket or formed in a test tube. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 3:31pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
peggywebbs:My sister! You speak the truth but would they listen? What most of them of have done is to replace the "Creator God" with the "god called Science"! They never realize that the spirit of man abhor a vacuum. If you are not with God, you must be a slave of satan 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by peggywebbs(f): 3:43pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
Scientists that are busy gathering data and disputing it everyday. They are not even sure of how the earth came to be. There are three scientific facts about the earths creation and none of them makes any sense. The worse part is even the sun that is so scorching that no one can ever get close to it and the planets they are just discovering, that are zillions of miles away from the earth. Was it not the same scientists that started with the earth is flat before their curiosity took them to space. Do these nonsense atheists know how many scientists had died before one successfully reached space. Even with all the theories, they can't still figure out how organs are created, that's why they still do transplants. Why can't scientists make kidneys, hearts and vital organs to save lives. Ordinary diseases they are still battling for cure. Atheists are just a bunch of lazy lots, who don't want to take responsibility for their lives but decide to remain bitter. They spend their everyday life questioning a God they claim don't exist. If God doesn't exist why bring up a thread about the same God everyday. They should repent. There are only two sides in life Good or Evil. There is nothing like in-between. When they die, science can't even explain what happens to them. Or maybe they think they just end. Confused lots shadeyinka: |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 3:55pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
peggywebbs:Scientists do not claim to know/understand everything BUT they believe that given more time, nothing is impossible. God actually gave us the knowledge is Science so that we can use it to subdue the earth. The problem is when a mortal substitute God with the knowledge of Science. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 3:58pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
shadeyinka: No, I won't go down with this kind of argument, you're violating logical argument here. Your logical argument in your premise is, there must be a cause to the dense since the dense cannot suddenly start getting high temperature meaning something must cause something, now the same logic also apply if there's a cause to the dense, so something causes the cause that causes the dense, yes?. Please no half-baked logic here, lets first of all trash out the logic of something must cause something. And secondly, the singularity was said to experience a quantum fluctuations, I hope you know what that means. Either the quantum fluctuations happened as a result of randomness or something caused it, whatever it is the answer is we don't know. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:22pm On Oct 04, 2019 |
Sorry for my late response. I was a little on the busy side today tintingz:No sir! tintingz:But an infinite regression of cause and effect is impossible! Do you agree? tintingz: The gravitational singleton couldn't have ALWAYS existed. If it had, then it is very stable (irrespective of quantum fluctuations) and would therefore need an external force to change its state. Is there another alternative for the submission that the gravitational singleton could not have always existed? |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 1:02am On Oct 05, 2019 |
PEGGYWEBBS Aww, do shut up please. No atheist on this thread has made any positive claim about anything. Atheism is "lack of belief" in a god or gods. Atheists do not hold the position of certainty that "god does not exist". You claim atheists are lazy but theists are the ones ready to accept any postulation without succifient objective proof to back it up while atheists withdraw belief and search for the objective facts needed to justify belief. Obviously if you had the slightest idea what atheism was, you wouldn't come here to rant and unload the specious disease in your brain concerning a subject you know nothing about. Why don't you leave discussions relating to theology for the adults to handle? You clearly don't belong here. |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 1:45am On Oct 05, 2019 |
peggywebbs:Exactly. And pls, tell us what religion has achieved? All religion does is suppress critical thinking, encourage misogyny and prejudice, as well as xenocentrism, condemn billions of people (many of whom are decent) to be damned to eternal suffering because they did not bow to a celestial tyrant. Atheists are skeptics, and as skeptics, we do not claim to know all the answers, or claim that the universe bends to our trivial desires. It is u theists dat make these arrogant & lazy claims. Atheist beliefs, contrary to what many of u bigoted r3tards believe, are pliable but only with evidence. By constantly questioning our convictions, we are cognizant that our perceptions are also subjective and distorted, that there is much to be known. Unlike you illiterate religious zombies who sit on your ass all day & believe whatever you are told without evidence. Go pound sharp sand, you ignorant, disrespectful neanderthal. 3 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by tintingz(m): 9:59am On Oct 05, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Ok No sir!Yes you are and I will show you below. But an infinite regression of cause and effect is impossible!Now this where it becomes paradoxical. In your premise the foundation of it logic is nothing can cause itself to exist, if this is the case then infinite regress is necessary! If there's determinism and causations in this case too infinite regress is necessary! We can't rule out it possibility. - Nothing can cause itself into existence = Infinite regress is necessary - There is a first cause = Then something can cause itself to exist - This contradict the first logical premise = nothing can cause itself to exist The gravitational singleton couldn't have ALWAYS existed. If it had, then it is very stable (irrespective of quantum fluctuations) and would therefore need an external force to change its state. The gravitational singularity itself is said to be infinite, what brought out the universe is the hot dense due to quantum fluctuations, the question you should be asking is did the quantum fluctuations acted randomly or something caused it to act? Both questions are valid. We will be left back to the same question, can something cause itself to exist or something must cause something to exist? |
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