chuxyz: Before the bold letters u said those angels had a choice, same way we shall all have a choice in heaven. Then to the bold letters: How will you hear about another rebellion when the bible have not been updated for up to 2000years. I believe many rebellion would have happened. Who knows if it is not an angel that rebelled again that brought about the SS genotype or HIV or even Ebola maybe through their affairs with humans or other atrocities. Who knows. If the bible is update now, I believe will shall see more. Lol

chuxyz: will that freewill be striped of man when they go to heaven? If no, that means there is every possibility someone will rebel. Why should we wait till we go to heaven to get answers? Getting the answers here on earth is still a course to know about God. There will definitely be no need having such knowledge in heaven cos you will definitely be doing nothing with it.

ikes9:
Well...God created him...knowing that he would rebel... but like I said FREE CHOICE .... God knowing Lucifer would rebel still wanted to give him the liberty to choose of he would still go on with the rebellion..or if he would repent...

ikes9:
didn't God know that Judas Iscariot would betray his son Jesus Christ
didn't God know that peter would deny Christ 3 times!!.
but did that stop God from creating them??... NO!
i

ikes9:
YES! God is all knowing... he knows all... both the past..present and future....But he doesn't know the choices we make...The choices we make solely depends on us..God has no influence in the choices we make...
like I said... we choose our actions freely...but we do not choose the consequences of our actions

Alwaystrue:

Your interest in knowing how satan's mind was manipulated still lies in my response above. satan had a knowledge of good and evil and also had life. He simply chose to do evil BASED on that knowledge. That is what I deduce from why God said Man has become like one of us KNOWING good and evil and another reason he put a cherubim to block access to the tree of life so man does not get to eat of it and live forever...satan must have deliberately left out telling them to eat of the tree of life after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so man would die and he could gloat to God.

Unfortunately for him, the all knowing God had put a redemptive package in place for man.

Man was more or less created on a blank slate hence it was easy to be tempted and deceived into eating of the tree. Did Adam have the prior 'knowledge' that his eating of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil was EVIL? Whag man did was evil but did he 'KNOW'. He still had choice irrespective though.

Remember what scriptures says about those who 'SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THEY HAVE RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there is no more a sacrifice of sin but a fearful awaiting of judgement'...


If we speculate that would such thought come again after we must have all gone to heaven, I kinda like the some of the responses @Alexleo gave. The mystery of the character of God was revealed after satan fell...The severity, mercy, loving kindness, undefeatability, wrath, patience and so on...Sides of God we may never have seen had it not been for the fall...

The difference between having 'such thoughts' when we get to heaven and when satan thought he could ascend to the heavens and the throne of God is, I deduce, that we have seen God manifest all sides of Him....something devil was not privy to having when he initially rebelled. Anyone who tries to have 'such thoughts' in the new heaven and earth will know what's in store for him. I am sure he would squash the thought if it ever even tried to peep and not allow it to nest. Lol.

chuxyz: Jesus death did not eliminate Sin. It only made our sins to be easily forgiven that we don't need to make any other sacrifice. Man will still have that freewill when they have gone to heaven which means he must surely think evil cos the state lucifer was before he rebelled(i.e. perfect and sinless) would be the state humans will all be then or even lesser. I am even sure God will not format all our minds so humans will still think like the way they use to while on earth.

frank317:

Some christians can be funny... "Have u heard of another rebellion since then?" This is the dumbest question I have ever heard.

I like your answer, "how could we hear of another rebellion since the bible has not been updated for the past 2000yrs."

For all we know, God would be too busy figthing his numerous angels and sending the ones defeated to his dumping ground "earth" no wonder sin and violence is on the increase. God is too distracted and demons are increasing.

Its seems the world ended once the bible story ended.
I guess a lot that is happening has taken God by surprise. He was angry when a tower was built very high,
I guess he didn't expect man would create cars, planes, jets, skyscrapers, computer and even advance from waiting for him to heal the sick to builing hospitals.

Or perhaps Jesus christ would soon send us an upgraded version of the bible.

Lol

JMAN05:

That is no doubt why God allow the saints to pass several tests. with these tests, they will be fortified against rebellion forever. God knows how to scrutinize and select the the one whose thinking looks bright. He was able to decode the truthfulness of Job's service to Him, and despite Satan's temptations, Job showed that God's observations were correct. Dont you think that God can even do more of that?

Remember that Satan didn't become perfect after passing tests, he was made so. So you wont compare the life of someone who passed difficult tests and remain strong with the one who never went through such. will you?

Secondly, the saints remained faithful while imperfect, imagine how easy it would be for them to be faithful when perfect. So no need to be paranoid.

chuxyz: Those who were created perfect from the start rebelled, now imagine those who were converted from imperfection to perfection. Those who have once tested imperfection. Did you know that even if satan didn't tempt adam/eve, they would have on their own decided to eat from the forbidden fruit for the fact they have the freewill. So will you tell me they ain't perfect?

JMAN05:

You choose what you like and live the other. It is most plausible, that anyone who suffered to keep integrity cant be compared with another who was just born so. Is that hard to understand? The latter is a new person in the business and would be thinking he is missing out on something, while the former have already probably gone thru that habit, but later left it. And now he is restored to perfect thought, reasoning and no more bad imperfect inclination. The motivation to do wrong is at low ebb. Why will he perform less now?

The angels in heaven in Noah's day came down to test what it feels like to sleep with the daughters of men, yet an imperfect Noah never committed fornication, though imperfect. Imagine if Noah is now made perfect.

ChrisCosmo: About casting them down to earth where man was, has it ever occured to you that, micheal and his angels only cast them out of heaven not down to earth, but lucifer and the fallen all by themselves came to earth to continue their reign of terror

chuxyz: One who is perfect never tested imperfection will never have thought of it coming to him unlike one who has tested it. If you have never taken cocaine and never even know it existed what will make you search for it? But if you have tasted it and stopped, momentarily, your thoughts will flashback to when you use to consume it. You might even be tempted to take just a sniff.

Fornication is not the only sin. Noah at one point drank himself to stupor.

Adam and Eve were perfect and they failed; satan was perfect, he failed; those angels you mention were perfect, they failed, God which we said is perfect also failed(Genesis 6:6). So any other perfect being is likely to fail no two ways about it

alexleo:

Now let's look at it this way. In the case of man, God forewarned him on the consequences of making a wrong choice, God also made provision for redemption of the fallen man even before creating him(Rev 13: 8 ) but in the case of Lucifer there is no where in the bible that we are told that he was forwarned about making any wrong choice or wrong move, no redemption plan was made before his creation and even after as was done in the case of man. Yes, lucifer did not beg God but remember also that Adam and Eve did not beg God yet God clothed them and still blessed them with children. Now doesn't this show you that lucifer's scenario was just meant to be so for the purposes I earlier mentioned?



My dear its still the same thing I'm saying- PURPOSE. Somebody must betray Jesus. Somebody must deny Jesus. What you mentioned here were part of the redemption package. Remember when peter cut somebody's ear off, what did Jesus tell him? Read it again in the bible. Nothing stops God from sending his angels to come and save Jesus from dying if not that a PURPOSE of God was being fulfilled. So it was a case of- somebody must not save Jesus from dying. He just has to die to fulfill God's pupose. The word purpose remains the keyword in Lucifers case just like it is the key word in the case of Jesus death.




Yes I agree with you here except the one you said that God does not know the choice we will make. You may be right and you may be wrong. But remember he is all knowing. Can't really say much about this yet. May be I ponder on it after.

My dear just look at these things from a balanced view point- not to defend God and not to offend or abuse him. Thanks.

chuxyz: Thanks for your wonderful contribution. You are saying something more logical. Now from what you said, I understood that good and evil was even existing before God created man, and it was this evil that made satan rebel. Since you said God left open the option between good and evil, now my question is: Did God create that evil or was it existing independently? So you are telling me that after we have all gone to heaven there will still exist that freewill to choose between good and evil?

chuxyz: I have been pondering over this time after time but have got no answers. Even so called pastors will only meander around the question and end up coming out with no answer. Now the question is this: If satan tempted man to sin against God, and we term satan the father of sin, then who tempted satan to also sin or rebel against God? Another Satan? If your answer is NOBODY, that means when we all have been raptured and gone to heaven, wont that same NOBODY tempt man to rebel against God again? And we will all start from square-one again back on earth. Please i need insightful answers only. Thanks.

Alwaystrue:

I won't want to call it logic but more like illumination and gaining understanding.

I won't be too hasty to say good and evil existed before God created man except you mean the time that satan sinned. Was it evil that really made Satan rebel or the choice to do it? God said 'Man is become like us KNOWING good and evil after he ate of the tree. Their eyes were opened.

I did not say 'God left open the option between good and evil'...mostof my words where on showing how God created a tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

To answer your question:
1. God created the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil and that is not the same as good or evil. He also created a right to choice. God also had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil but is he evil because of that or does He do evil?

2. I can only say what I understand from scriptures. Our choice is our right. Do you think God will take away freewill in heaven? I will answer your question with a question. Why will anyone want to do evil when he gets to heaven as a reward for belief in His Son and righteousness especially as the person knows the outcome of evil (something Satan experienced only after his mess up)? Of what benefit will that eveil be then to him or anyone?

chuxyz:
God created man on earth, saw no place to cast satan but on same earth(what about Jupita, Saturn and the rest? Or abyss sef) yet he placed the sins of father on us. I think God should try put himself in our shoes.

chuxyz:
I have been pondering over this time after time but have got no answers. Even so called pastors will only meander around the question and end up coming out with no answer. Now the question is this: If satan tempted man to sin against God, and we term satan the father of sin, then who tempted satan to also sin or rebel against God? Another Satan? If your answer is NOBODY, that means when we all have been raptured and gone to heaven, wont that same NOBODY tempt man to rebel against God again? And we will all start from square-one again back on earth. Please i need insightful answers only. Thanks.

twosquare:
there will be nothing like evil or sin, because we shall be like God.....like i told you about where sin came from, it is from satan. Like you said in one of your post that satan his the father of sin, so also God is the father of righteousness. Everything is just about entering fatherhood also....satan fathered lies, sin, wickedness. He wants to be a Father like God, so he created his own version. Sin is just another kind of lifestyle that differs from that which God has laid down....it is an inferior lifestyle created or which was births forth in an angel that is anti-God.

frank317:
My problem with christians is with their refusal to accept they don't know instead, they continue to make foolish their God with useless answers.

How can u call satan (who is supposedly created by a perfect God who knows the past, present and future, who knows every intention, who is all loving and all powerful and blah blah) a father of sin?

What even gave satan the odacity to challenge his all powerful creator? He must be very silly to try that knowing what his creator is capable of.
How did satan succeed in convincing plenty other angels?
Where did the idea to challenge God come from? Who gave him such mind?

How does a reasonable person believe such ferry tale?

nairalandposter:


Satan is the father of lies, not of sin.

twosquare:
From where cameth lies? And who births sin? Was it found in Elyon or Lucifer? Next time, crosscheck before refuting. There is a reason those he groomed were/are called sons of disobedience/man of sin.

nairalandposter:


Satan is sin.

Man of sin= sin, not father of sin.

I'm not going into an exposition on obedience versus disobedience here because nlers obsess over it too much ad infinitum.

twosquare:
If he is the father of lies...,are lies superior to sin? It means there is something generating that lies...he is the father of lies because from him cameth sin which is superior. He authored sin, he birth it, and whatever you birth, you're the father of. Its as simple as that. No one is saying he doesn't father lies. You can't separate God from righteousness, neither can you separate this being from sin too. Like it or not, he is a father of sin, he has fathered many, and he will still father some in the end.

Man of sin is earthy, the father of sin is celestial (angelic).

nairalandposter:


Satan is sin, meaning any sin has it's origin in satan.

Simple.

Think of tree bearing fruit, the tree is not the fruit but the fruit is from the tree.


If they tell you folks to read your bible, you protest, but then you don't even know what you're saying a lot of the time.

twosquare:
You have answered the question you refused to see. It's simple. If he is the originator according to you, that means he is the inventor, and if he is the inventor, that means he is the f*th*r...

nairalandposter:


No, there is no father of sin, only sin.

I know you're trying to say God is the father of sin, not so.

Satan is not the inventor of sin, that would imply [b]he has a choice [/b]of what to invent, whether sin or righteousness, which is another gbagaun from you.

Sin is satan and satan is sin. Se finis.

chuxyz:
I have been pondering over this time after time but have got no answers. Even so called pastors will only meander around the question and end up coming out with no answer. Now the question is this: If satan tempted man to sin against God, and we term satan the father of sin, then who tempted satan to also sin or rebel against God? Another Satan? If your answer is NOBODY, that means when we all have been raptured and gone to heaven, wont that same NOBODY tempt man to rebel against God again? And we will all start from square-one again back on earth. Please i need insightful answers only. Thanks.

SamjohnnyB:


U need to understand that the term God means everything. But good and evil is God

nairalandposter:


No, there is no father of sin, only sin.

I know you're trying to say God is the father of sin, not so.

Satan is not the inventor of sin, that would imply he has a choice of what to invent, whether sin or righteousness, which is another gbagaun from you.

Sin is satan and satan is sin. Se finis.