Stats: 3,192,086 members, 7,946,683 topics. Date: Thursday, 12 September 2024 at 01:38 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Who Created God? (27662 Views)
If Nothing Can Exist Without A Creator, So What Created God? / What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question / Who Created God? - An Invalid Question (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) ... (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 3:33pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
tintingz:Did I? Please check! |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 3:36pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
TheArranger:I simply asked you a question as a response. Your answer is within your answer. Since you feel they don't apply outside our universe, why do you require them as EVIDENCE to believe in the First Cause? |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 3:47pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:Your "question" is based on the assumption that I don't believe those concepts to be possible beyond our observable universable. This is where you commit the strawman fallacy. Let it sink into your head: I HAVEN'T TAKE ANY SIDES. Read my posts carefully. Your "question" is painfully invalid. Now, let's try again. Maybe fourth time's the charm, ATTEMPT NUMBER 4: How do you know that the concepts of logic, thermodynamics and entropy apply beyond our observable universe? |
Re: Who Created God? by LordReed(m): 3:47pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
XxSabrinaxX: It seems that theists willing to be honest with themselves become agnostic/atheist while those who elevate their dishonesty to an art form become apologists. 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 4:09pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
TheArranger:If you like write attempt number 1000. Atheists require a physical or scientific proof of God. Any answer devoid of this is nonsensical. Why use earthly Science as a basis for accepting the Source? |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 5:06pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:Whether you call it first causer, intelligent designer, God or gods, creators, they mean the same to the atheist, especially when talking about earth or the universe, so sorry that this just wouldn't wash with an atheist. shadeyinka2:This is your opinion. When I was an atheist, there was no God, not because I deliberately decided there was no God. It was the logical conclusion after checking quite a lot of the written evidence for gods and not finding one. I could of course have for some reason or the other decided to believe a god existed but I would have been lying to myself since I had no evidence for holding such a belief. I don't agree that anyone here on NL is bold enough to deliberately deny God, is my point here, and think you are looking through your own lense thinking others see what you see without considering that perhaps God gave you a gift that the atheist has not yet received. shadeyinka2:To be honest, I don't know how true it is that an effect must have a cause, but it is an argument that falls flat on its face when you insert an uncaused causer at the beginning and deny infinite regressions. I mean, even if IRs are impossible, two or three regressions are not impossible, so why can't there be a causer of the supposed first causer, and a causer of the cause of the first causer? It is a logical argument that needs to suspend logic to suit, I am afraid, the tortoise all the way down argument derided by Hawkins. shadeyinka2:No, this isn't quite true, what is claimed is that what you call first cause or effect might not be the first cause or effect and neither you nor they know. And its a valid challenge to the theist who claims to know but merely believes and suspends reason to justify holding that belief. An example might be, I may not know 2+2=4, but I may know it is not equal to 5720932. shadeyinka2:Actually, to 'believe' in God is a choice one makes. And as the Queen said to Alice, "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." But that in no way implies a belief is true unless one checks first, in which case, it is no more a belief, but knowledge. The folly of believing can clearly be seen here in the religious section where we believe all sorts - 6000 year old earth, dinosaurs eating with Adam and Eve, flat earth, Swiss cheese moon, the Japanese fire up the sun every morning and Trump wants to steal it. Science is a direct challenge to personal belief, and its what we argue here. I personally can not wait till we learn to use our senses properly and chose to know, to the Glory of God, dare I say. shadeyinka2:Now you've kind of gone off piste! If you claim every effect has a cause, why is it ridiculous to keep looking for a causer of every effect? Intellectual rigour alone should motivate one to, and anyone who says don't is only desirous of ignorant people. In fact, this is my challenge to theists. Is it not written "seek, and you shall find"? How can you possible rule over the earth and the sea, and subdue it and multiply if you have not at least found God's Kingdom? Personally, anyone who asks me to believe is insulting me and asking me to be shudder like satan, to which my response is, "As for me and my being, I shall worship the Lord". There is no way the Lord will accept a Cain like offering of ignorance from buda! shadeyinka2:Trust me. Any atheist who tells you "we don't know" is being kind to you. An honest knowledgeable person will tell you it is written, "No one has seen God except the Son who is God". shadeyinka2:Yes, one can, at least in Spirit, as Jesus Christ did. But theists want to use logic and science and fail woefully! Please know that you got all this out of me as I sit in a major hospital in a major city waiting to discuss poo, and modesty stops me posting a photo (of the hospital doh, and lol!). Though, saying that, I've now changed my mind. 1 Like
|
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 6:14pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:What is God? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 6:55pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:The Spirit Being who is the Source of Everything. Atheists know the "Christian" definition/description they just reject such for any kind of personality hence the desbelieve! But you didn't answer how a person can come to such a contradictory conclusion. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 7:11pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:This is how! A Spirit and a Spirit Being are the same thing to some. But honestly, Christians hardly agree what God is, or not, is what I've found. What's the question again? |
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 7:11pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:why do you ask this question ? are you not a believer ? |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 7:31pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
malvisguy212:No, I am not a believer. I try as much as possible not to emulate satan. |
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 7:43pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:alright. enjoy the rest of the day. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 7:43pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:alright. enjoy the rest of the day. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 8:31pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:God is a Spirit John 4:24: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 9:00pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:I think wires may have crossed somewhere. Did I say otherwise? |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 9:06pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:Carefully read what you just wrote. Carefully |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 9:46pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:No, you didn't. I was just reaffirming that God is a Spirit. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 9:46pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
TheArranger:? |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 9:56pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:I got the impression you thought I said otherwise. Probably why malvisguy asked if I was a believer. Might I ask you to explain what "God is a Spirit" means so our atheist friends can understand? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 10:55pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
budaatum:Ok Sir. But it is difficult describing God as a Spirit to skeptics and those who deliberately reject God. However, for the sake of education, here it is 1. A Spirit is a non localized (not bound in space and time) Personality or Living Being with a non Physical body (Spirit Body). 2. A spirit being has the characteristics of Emotion, Will and Intellect and can change things in the spirit realm and sometimes in the physical. 3. The Spirit realm is everywhere where spirit beings act and activities take place. 4. The spirit realm seems superimposed even on the Physical realm at a higher dimension. 5. There are unknown number of spirits in the universe. Examples of spirits include Angels, Demons and others 6. Even though humans are Physical beings, they have a Spirit components and the voice of their spirit is their conscience. 7. God is a Spirit. He is the Uncaused First Cause! He is the source of all Spirits! He is the giver of Life and Consciousness! He made everything seen and unseen! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 10:56pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:Does your answer make any sense to you? Really? Stop dragging atheists into this issue. The question is about you. Time is one discipline scientists are attempting to come to grips with and reach a better understanding. In evaluating"time", one other discipline that has a lot in common with 'time" is thermodynamics. And that is what a lot of scientists are examining in order to better understand what time is. Although I do not have advanced theoretical training, I get it. But what the Bleep does that have to do with whether a god exists or not? In the academic world (which I have a passing fancy) these deep questions are examined, they know a heck of a lot more than anyone in this forum, theist or atheist. If they ran across any scientific evidence in their calculations for any deity, it would shake the foundations of the scientific community, and everyone would be immediately aware of such a major revelation. So bros, unless you possess a PhD in particle physics or some similar discipline, just why the Bleep are you attempting to prove a god in an e-forum? If you can prove via scientific arguments for a god, go to the world of physics, debate with those better equipped to discuss such a subject, and collect your Nobel prize. And if you can not do that, you're just a deluded joke clowning himself on an internet forum. Dude, you are conflating atheists requesting evidence and advanced theoretical concepts. Using your tactics will never win me over in this forum. A lot of other users have expressed this same sentiment. But if you sway the scientific community to accept your propositions, I will be the first to fly to your home, shake your hand and offer the most sincere apology possible. ATTEMPT NUMBER 5: How do you know that the concepts of logic, thermodynamics and entropy apply beyond our observable universe? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 11:17pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
TheArranger: shadeyinka2:Answer number 6:. Why do you expect the observables as a proof of God. |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 11:24pm On Oct 08, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:If you have a better option for establishing facts then please, i'm all ears. Infact, why don't you write a book? Earthly science (observables) takes every nonsense out of your brain and tests it. You can rationalize and justify anything in a warped brain. The flat-earthers do it. Alien abductees do it. You are doing it. Replace "god" in my previous post with "source" or "first cause" and my point still stands. You don't get to imagine anything into existence. It's that easy. ATTEMPT NUMBER 6 How do you know concepts like logic, thermodynamics & entropy apply beyond our observable universe? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 12:01am On Oct 09, 2019 |
budaatum:Interestingly, at this stage, the Uncaused First Cause could have been anything rather than a being. I wonder how it has to become an argument. If the universe has an end, then it must have a beginning. If it has a beginning, there must be a first cause! budaatum: Definition Effect: effect nounef·fect\i-ˈfekt, e-, ē-, ə-\ : a change that results when something is done or happens : an event, condition, or state of affairs that is produced by a cause Can there really be an effect without a cause? If an infinite regress of cause and of effect is possible, could it not imply that the prediction of the heat death of the universe is a faulted ? budaatum:We know God because of the relationship we have with Him. We believe God when we exercise our Trust in God and His integrity. Both knowledge and Belief have their place in the Christian walk. Faith is taking appropriate actions consistent with our knowledge and belief in God. It's not possible to use Science to prove or disprove God. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by budaatum: 1:59am On Oct 09, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:I have a feeling we'll not be around to know if the universe has an end since the universe doesn't seem to be ending soon, and unless you believe in a young earth, a beginning would have been billion years ago. I've found we are only now trying to stitch Prehistoric Egypt (Prior to 3100 BC) together, so I'm not likely to believe much said about many millions of years ago, and nor will I assume to know what I can not possibly know. But that's me. In these sort of cases, I defer to Christ who told me "not to worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own". Tomorrow being not tomorrow Thursday, but someday anytime a billion years from now. |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 5:47am On Oct 09, 2019 |
budaatum:Spiritually, the universe as we know it has an end. Rev 21:1: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." But here, I speak not in light of this but in light of the Heat Death of the Universe. The heat death of the universe, also known as the Big Chill or Big Freeze,[1] is a conjecture on the ultimate fate of the universe, which suggests the universe would evolve to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and would therefore be unable to sustain processes that increase entropy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka2: 5:56am On Oct 09, 2019 |
TheArranger:Seeing that you have nothing else to say than counting attempts of a question I won't answer unless you answer mine, I call it a day with you. When you have an answer to my question, you can call me if you wish. Till then: this conversation is terminated. Modified: I expect the normal NL Atheists chest beating after this. You have the floor to exhibit your nature |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 6:34am On Oct 09, 2019 |
shadeyinka2: TheArranger:Dude, you're embarrassing yourself with these sorry evasion tactics. We currently do not know any method better than the "observables" that can be used for establishing facts about observable reality. I can see the point you tried to make but you've failed because you've now taken us back to square 1: ATTEMPT NUMBER 7 How do you know concepts like logic, entropy and thermodynamics (the observables) apply beyond our observable universe? BQ: Can you define "beyond our universe" in any way that is debatable? |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 6:57am On Oct 09, 2019 |
shadeyinka2:Is that what you want? If this is what you've been thinking or you've been worried about then it is just proof that you were never interested in an honest debate. You think this is a dick waving contest? If you can, please go through the first 11 pages of this thread. Literally the only person doing any "chest-beating" has been you. It is now clear to me that you came here to preach and not to debate. You came here with the mindset that you're never going to change your mind. Of what use is any debate if such is the case? I'm not saying I want you to change your mind. You can hold on to your beliefs, i couldn't care less. But debates should be held without bias and individual shaping principles. If anyone mocks you on making faulty points, re-examine your post. When everyone is talking the same crap about you, the problem is probably you. |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 7:07am On Oct 09, 2019 |
SHADEYINKA When you are ready for an honest debate, refer to my second-to-last post before this. Till then, i'm equally signing off |
Re: Who Created God? by missjo(f): 7:20am On Oct 09, 2019 |
budaatum:You? ![]() |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 8:55am On Oct 09, 2019 |
TheArranger:On a hindsight I saw that you have actually answered my question in this post. So, I'm going to answer you. Your Question: How do you know concepts like logic, entropy and thermodynamics (the observables) apply beyond our observable universe? Answer: What we know is based strictly on our observations and experience of events, causes and effects within this present universe. Because of this, it is impossible to prove God using any means. We can only know God when we experience Him through events and circumstances we find ourselves in in relation to Him. Logic may apply to some extent, arithmetics may still be true to some extent. While we remain on earth however except by our experience we don't have any other suitable means of getting to an understanding of what we see as Truth. Haven answered your question, the following facts follow: 1. It is impossible to prove God using Logic, Physics, Chemistry or any other natural law for if God is the First Cause our present knowledge is insufficient to grasp Him 2. It is therefore ridiculous to disprove the existence of God with any natural means of Logic, Physics, Chemistry etc. 3. Experience is the only way to know the reality of God even though experiences may be subjective and unconvincing to those outside the experience. 4. With the laws of Physics, Chemistry, Logic and Mathematics, the best we can do (in making meaning from issues) is to project our present realities into the past or future so as to be able to make a meaning of our present realities. All the arguments on this thread had hinged on this item 4 if we decide to ignore item 1, 2 & 3. The difference between the two divides is those with experience of God AND those with no experience. Finally: Using item 4 as basis: 1. Every effect has a cause 2. Every cause has an effect 3. Infinite regress of cause and effect is impossible This would mean either a. Causes or Effects don't exist (which by our experience is untrue) OR b. Infinite regress of cause and effect is possible Or c. We have a conflicting Logic An infinite regress of cause and effect is self contradictory because to take away the cause, no effect is possible or take away the effect and there is no cause. If there is no first cause there is no others. Hence, Unless the rule is broken at least once at the beginning with a First Cause can 1 & 2 hold. If you feel that another conclusion exist, please be my guest On these hinged all my arguments using our present understanding of science and logic. This is it for those who need "EVIDENCE" for a First Cause. Like I said earlier, the First Cause needn't be God. The First Cause could be a Thing or a Being. It is left for you to decide if the Uncaused First Cause is a Thing or a Being. Denying the First Cause is rejecting the only argument that can lead to the discovery of the identity of the First Cause. The Agnostics best argument is this to be "Based on my knowledge, I don't know if the First Cause is a Thing or a Being!" Here, I rest my case. 1 Like 1 Share |
(1) (2) (3) ... (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (Reply)
Let The Dead Bury The Dead (What Jesus Actually Meant?) / If Colonial Masters Didn't Introduce Christianity Will We All Have Gone To Hell / Spiritual Importance Of Early Morning Urine
Viewing this topic: 2 guest(s)
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 137 |