Everyone must have heard the saying "god is not a magician." This is common among christians. It's a saying simply concocted as a cop-out to absolve themselves from the responsibility of believing in the miraculous as they should. Each time certain believers, by prayer and faith, demand miracles and wonders or expect certain supernatural workings from the divine, the response "god is not a magician" is sure to surface.

What is a miracle? What is magic? If I ask any christian to provide me with a list of events or occurrences that they would consider magic and I compare them to miracles in the bible such as Jesus turning water to wine, Jesus raising the dead, Elisha making a sunk axe head float by throwing a piece of wood in water(2 King 6:1-7), Moses splitting the red sea, Jesus multiplying fish and bread, etc. you can't tell the difference. Some may say "It's miracle if it's from god, it's magic if it's from the devil." Well, those that are expecting whatever supernatural and miraculous from the divine would, if their requests were granted, still end up getting a miracle since it's god they've asked. Beside, the bible makes it clear —in Matt 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 14:13, Ephesians 3:20— that with faith, you can pray to god for what you want and you will receive and god can do beyond what our mind can conceive.

Wouldn't it be better to a say "I know the bible contains many supernatural events and It also supports soliciting help and miraculous intervention from god through faith and prayer but I don't just believe that" instead of "god is able, benevolent, and all power and he is not a magician"? As I have shown, there are scriptural injunctions that permit a believer to solicit help and miraculous intervention from god through faith and prayer so why disapprove of or malign those keying into this as if they are foolish and unlettered on scriptural matters?

I don't support believers forgoing practical solutions to real life problems for divine help. However, if we endorse religion and the bible, we must admit that it's not out place for anyone following the bible to do such. How many christian cancer patients or malaria victims can try what is instructed in James 5:14-15? Would it surprise you if they did? You may advise christians against such but what can you do when they tell you that the bible supports their actions and they will obey the Bible?

The practice of forgoing medical care for faith healing has been disasterous for many. Even in business, career, and marriage, forgoing the best practical position for a strategy embedded in religious delusion can be disasterous as well and set you backwards. The way forward is to speak against these misleading and dangerous scriptural injunctions and reform the holy books accordingly.

As moderate Christians keep insisting that the bible is rational and doesn't support any egregious practice, christians that have the fortitude and honesty to take the bible for what it is will keep harming themselves and those around them. As moderate Muslims keep insisting that the quran is a book of peace, those that have the fortitude and honesty to take the quran as it is will not be deterred from islamic extremism. In both religions, the extremists, ironically, are the true believers.




HopefulLandlord, hahn, XxSabrinaxX, johnydon22, budaatum, LordReed, Michellekabod2, Sharon6,

Hmmm

But man is the magician

How many ill people can try what is instructed in James 5:14-15?

I've edited your question above, since I was not a victim but just fell ill, and the text itself never said one must be a "Christian". But I did all the same do [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5%3A14-15&version=KJV]James 5:14-15[/url] as you can see clearly here.

Though 39, I do not expect you to agree that the "elders of the church" were the numerous "doctors and wonderful caring people" I called upon, nor that the "oil they anointed me with in the name of the Lord" was the xray and the Magnetic resonance imaging (Mri) scan, and the Intravenous immunoglobulin which cost over £500 a go, and the very tall crane outside the window and the picture on the wall with the petal in the corner that said buda move your toe and the twelve tablets of Praziquantel at 40 pence a tablet.

My beans is not your beans, you see, because when it is written that "in the name of the Lord", I see the knowledge and wisdom of all those "doctors and wonderful caring people", while you, it seems, look for a magician or assume Christians do.

There is a reason why we say seek first the knowledge of God, and righteousness and understanding and wisdom and all other things will be added unto you.
_{Matthew 6:33 from the buda's understood version.}

Phillips disappeared and reappeared in the bible and Jesus walked through walls. Made me remember "Now you see me "

Lol... humans will always be humans.
Thank God I’m not one.

Martinez39:
Everyone must have heard the saying "god is not a magician." This is common among christians. It's a saying simply concocted as a cop-out to absolve themselves from the responsibility of believing in the miraculous as they should. Each time certain believers, by prayer and faith, demand miracles and wonders or expect certain supernatural workings from the divine, the response "god is not a magician" is sure to surface."

It is true God is not a magician. The Pharaohs of this world, would rather summon wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians to do the same things as God's done by their secret arts.

Martinez39:
What is a miracle? What is magic? If I ask any christian to provide me with a list of events or occurrences that they would consider magic and I compare them to miracles in the bible such as Jesus turning water to wine, Jesus raising the dead, Elisha making a sunk axe head float by throwing a piece of wood in water (2 King 6:1-7), Moses splitting the red sea, Jesus multiplying fish and bread, etc. you can't tell the difference. Some may say "It's miracle if it's from god, it's magic if it's from the devil." Well, those that are expecting whatever supernatural and miraculous from the divine would, if their requests were granted, still end up getting a miracle since it's god they've asked.

The fundamental difference between a miracle and a magic, is a God factor. A miracle has God in its formula, while the other, magic's formula, is bereft of God.

What we perceive as miracles on earth, are actually rules, principles and/or laws of heaven. It's when a miracle is constantly repeated or perfected, that it becomes a process of nature, a normal state of affairs on earth. Magic, on the other hand, historically often had pejorative connotations, specifically negative connotations to apply to rites that were regarded as fraudulent, unconventional, and dangerous. Magic, is the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices

Let's take a look at a perceived miracle, the Thames Tunnel, is the world's first man-made underground tunnel under a river built. It was used by pedestrians, was a shopping arcade and became a tourist attraction. Experts back then, thought that an underground tunnel underneath a navigable river is impracticable, and so, it was classed a miracle then and after, this tunnel was successfully constructed by Sir Marc Isambard Brunel. Whats the point made here? The point is that, tunnels under rivers, are now ten a penny, and so thereby their constructions arent seen to be miracles anymore. It has become a norm.

Martinez39:
Beside, the bible makes it clear —in Matt 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 14:13, Ephesians 3:20— that with faith, you can pray to god for what you want and you will receive and God can do beyond what our mind can conceive.

It has to be within the rules though before God can do beyond what our mind can conceive, besides we all know and agree that "let Thy will be done" takes precedence here nau.

Martinez39:
Wouldn't it be better to a say "I know the bible contains many supernatural events and It also supports soliciting help and miraculous intervention from God through faith and prayer but I don't just believe that" instead of "God is able, benevolent, and all power and he is not a magician"?

The fool will go and settle with the former while the wise will choose the latter as a fitting alternative. Please dont slip on the "fool and/or wise" banana skin because one is in this case, is adjudged a fool or wise based on their good or bad chosen conclusion or resolution reached after consideration of a matter.

Being called a fool, isnt said to denigrate the person called so but making wrong decisions based on bad judgement and conclusions, adds up to being foolish, as opposed to being wise. Case in point, crossing a highway of 14 lanes without using a pedestrian bridge, and lets see if this is wisdom or being foolish. Being wise comes from wise thinking after good judgement of information. Only a fool will cross a busy road thoughtlessly but a wise, will thoughtfully cross same busy road.

Martinez39:
As I have shown, there are scriptural injunctions that permit a believer to solicit help and miraculous intervention from God through faith and prayer so why disapprove of or malign those keying into this as if they are foolish and unlettered on scriptural matters?

You can have all the faith and most powerful prayer of Nairaland, still no way would your text show on the site in other than in red, green, blue, purple, brown or black. Even common Nairaland, is a stickler to rules

Martinez39:
I don't support believers forgoing practical solutions to real life problems for divine help. However, if we endorse religion and the bible, we must admit that it's not out place for anyone following the bible to do such. How many christian cancer patients or malaria victims can try what is instructed in James 5:14-15? Would it surprise you if they did? You may advise christians against such but what can you do when they tell you that the bible supports their actions and they will obey the Bible?

You follow James 5:14-15 with sense, common sense and sense wiseness. The prayer goes working in tandem with a sought after medical care

Martinez39:
The practice of forgoing medical care for faith healing has been disasterous for many. Even in business, career, and marriage, forgoing the best practical position for a strategy embedded in religious delusion can be disasterous as well and set you backwards. The way forward is to speak against these misleading and dangerous scriptural injunctions and reform the holy books accordingly.

[img]https://s3/images/FirmGrip.gif[/img]
It becomes misleading and dangerous scriptural injunctions when in the hands of an inexperienced, like demonstrated with the concise above short clip is worth a thousand words

Martinez39:
As moderate Christians keep insisting that the bible is rational and doesn't support any egregious practice, christians that have the fortitude and honesty to take the bible for what it is will keep harming themselves and those around them. As moderate Muslims keep insisting that the quran is a book of peace, those that have the fortitude and honesty to take the quran as it is will not be deterred from islamic extremism. In both religions, the extremists, ironically, are the true believers.

The bible is 110% rational and doesn't at all support any egregious practice

TVSA:
Phillips disappeared and reappeared in the bible

It wasnt the first, not even second and only time, this happened in the bible naah,

TVSA:
and Jesus walked through walls. Made me remember "Now you see me "

Yeah, and Jesus walked through walls is the stuff glorified bodies are made out from

budaatum:


I've edited your question above, since I was not a victim but just fell ill, and the text itself never said one must be a "Christian".

Whether or not being a Christian is a prerequisite for keying into that verse, we know that, at least, it was written to Christians and that verse exists.

But I did all the same do [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5%3A14-15&version=KJV]James 5:14-15[/url] as you can see clearly here.

Though 39, I do not expect you to agree that the "elders of the church" were the numerous "doctors and wonderful caring people" I called upon, nor that the "oil they anointed me with in the name of the Lord" was the xray and the Magnetic resonance imaging (Mri) scan, and the Intravenous immunoglobulin which cost over £500 a go, and the very tall crane outside the window and the picture on the wall with the petal in the corner that said buda move your toe and the twelve tablets of Praziquantel at 40 pence a tablet.

How did you come about this interpretation if not self deceit? Among doctors are Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus (for those that would travel out due to the ineptitude of Nigerian doctors and lack of infrastructures). The same applies to the caring people around us. Are Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus elders of the church?

Services of modern medicine are not the oil that is being talked about. We can agree to disagree. I wonder how you will interprete many various unction in the bible.

My beans is not your beans, you see, because when it is written that "in the name of the Lord", I see the knowledge and wisdom of all those "doctors and wonderful caring people", while you, it seems, look for a magician or assume Christians do.

There is a reason why we say seek first the knowledge of God, and righteousness and understanding and wisdom and all other things will be added unto you.
_{Matthew 6:33 from the buda's understood version.}

What bearing does this have on verses that dish out a concise and clear way to tackle illness?

Martinez39:
Whether or not being a Christian is a prerequisite for keying into that verse, we know that, at least, it was written to Christians and that verse exists

It was written to specifically to some certain unbelievers, however it is free for anyone who finds it alluring enough and wants to key into the substance and life of the verse to thereafter then take advantage of it
(Note edited out un from unbelievers. Excuse my misspeak)

Martinez39:
How did you come about this interpretation if not self deceit?

No! No, dear nwanne friend, coming about the interpretation has nothing to do with self deceit, but a lot to do with the stuff psyching is made up from.

Martinez39, I pray make una no sabi "agbako" because things dey for this obodo life ooo and thats why you'll find out that desperate times do calls for desperate measures. People, during adversity, go for actions that seem to be the extreme under normal circumstances, but the reality is they arent dealing with normal circumstances nau.

Martinez39:
Among doctors are Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus (for those that would travel out due to the ineptitude of Nigerian doctors and lack of infrastructures). The same applies to the caring people around us. Are Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus elders of the church?

[img]https://s3/images/ObamaMuttley.gif[/img]
So? So what?
Martinez39, you seem to not grasp what the meat part James 5:14-15 is from and is about. If you contextually had read James 5:14-15, you would have easily found out that the meat part was putting forward a plan for consideration to others, that was in how to have patience in suffering and as a result of that suggested the prayer of faith, all this towards to, ginger self up, while on the way to full good health recovery.

God is no respecter of persons, it dont matter if its Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and/or Hindus who wants to take advantage of James 5:14-15

Martinez39:
Services of modern medicine are not the oil that is being talked about. We can agree to disagree. I wonder how you will interprete many various unction in the bible.

"⁵Why do you want more beatings? Why do you keep rebelling? Your head has a massive wound, and your whole heart is afflicted.
⁶From the sole of your foot to the top of your head, there is no soundness
— only wounds and welts and festering sores not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil."
- Isaiah 1:5-6

Well in those biblical times, oil was part of services of modern ancient medicine my dear nwanne friend. If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know

Martinez39:

What people dont understand they laugh at

Martinez39:
What bearing does this have on verses that dish out a concise and clear way to tackle illness

The bearing, Matthew 6:33 has over those verses, is that some other things are worthier to think about that others

Martinez39:
Whether or not being a Christian is a prerequisite for keying into that verse, we know that, at least, it was written to Christians and that verse exists.

If that verse "was written to Christians", why are you reading it? Are you a Christian now 39?

If "being a Christian is a prerequisite for keying into that verse" 39, why do you, a non-Christian, think you can key into that verse?

Martinez39:
How did you come about this interpretation if not self deceit? Are Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus elders of the church?

You calling me "deceitful" 39? At least its milder than what you've called me in the past I suppose, but I would say it is self deceit to you 39. Remember, my beans is not your beans so I do not expect you to understand how the "Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus" doctors and wonderful caring people who healed me were all elders of my church as spoken about in James 5:14-15.

Martinez39:
Services of modern medicine are not the oil that is being talked about. We can agree to disagree. I wonder how you will interprete many various unction in the bible.

Beans, 39! "Services of modern medicine are not the oil" to you!

Martinez39:
What bearing does this have on verses that dish out a concise and clear way to tackle illness?

What bearing does "seek first the knowledge of God and righteousness and understanding and wisdom and all other things will be added unto you", dish out a concise and clear way to tackle illness?

I explained it to you in my initial response 39, but going by your response to mine you obviously lack the "prerequisite for keying" in, as you have clearly shown and would insist your own beans is everyone's beans, as you usually do!

Every bearing, some would say. I lost 30kg from my top weight of 82kg and was very close to deaths door so it even was a concise and clear way to tackle even death!

For anyone wondering how my beans is not 39's beans, please see here and here and here.

MuttleyLaff:


What people dont understand they laugh at.

I see you'd already given an appropriate response to his beans. Thank you muttley.

budaatum:

If that verse "was written to Christians", why are you reading it? Are you a Christian now 39?

Seriously?

Good day.

Seriously good day to you too 39.

budaatum:
If that verse "was written to Christians", why are you reading it? Are you a Christian now 39?

If "being a Christian is a prerequisite for keying into that verse" 39, why do you, a non-Christian, think you can key into that verse?

You calling me "deceitful" 39? At least its milder than what you've called me in the past I suppose, but I would say it is self deceit to you 39. Remember, my beans is not your beans so I do not expect you to understand how the "Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and Hindus" doctors and wonderful caring people who healed me were all elders of my church as spoken about in James 5:14-15.

Beans, 39! "Services of modern medicine are not the oil" to you!

What bearing does "seek first the knowledge of God and righteousness and understanding and wisdom and all other things will be added unto you", dish out a concise and clear way to tackle illness?

I explained it to you in my initial response 39, but going by your response to mine you obviously lack the "prerequisite for keying" in, as you have clearly shown and would insist your own beans is everyone's beans, as you usually do!

Every bearing, some would say. I lost 30kg from my top weight of 82kg and was very close to deaths door so it even was a concise and clear way to tackle even death!

For anyone wondering how my beans is not 39's beans, please see here and here and here.

budaatum:
Those ignorant of the power of herbs call it vegetable.

"Ni ile aiye, ki Ọlọrun ma jẹ ka, roogun, aiye sha. We no go jam agbako. Aiye dun, ju iya, oshi, ose ati iku lọ" loosely means
"In this life, make God no allow village pipul be on our mata. Winches no go be our portion. Life sweet pass, sufferhead, poverty, misery, affliction and death"

budaatum:
Seriously good day to you too 39.

budaatum kilode? I hope you don't burn your beans one day o!!!

XxSabrinaxX:

budaatum kilode? I hope you don't burn your beans one day o!!!

Kilode, how? 500grams of beans and 2 litres of water in a pressure cooker for 30 minutes. It never burns. Especially if your eye is on it like mine always is.

budaatum:

Kilode, how? 500grams of beans and 2 litres of water in a pressure cooker for 30 minutes. It never burns. Especially if your eye is on it like mine always is.

I'm just saying, buda. You seem to be an excellent chef, aye?

MuttleyLaff:
It was written to specifically to some certain unbelievers, however it is free for anyone who finds it alluring enough and wants to key into the substance and life of the verse to thereafter then take advantage of it

This is a bigger lie. This is a lie told out of shameless dishonesty. The book of James was written to believers. Shameful of you to tell a cheap lie for Jesus.

No! No, dear nwanne friend, coming about the interpretation has nothing to do with self deceit, but a lot to do with the stuff psyching is made up from.

It has a lot to do with self deceit. When you interpret "church elders" as doctors (which include Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and other unbelievers), you have bestowed upon yourself a dishonesty and a ludicrous notion that no one can argue with. You really mean to tell me that you don't know what is meant by church elders?

Martinez39, I pray make una no sabi "agbako" because things dey for this obodo life ooo and thats why you'll find out that desperate times do calls for desperate measures. People, during adversity, go for actions that seem to be the extreme under normal circumstances, but the reality is they arent dealing with normal circumstances nau.

Absolute rubbish. Your point is?

[img]https://s3/images/ObamaMuttley.gif[/img]
So? So what?
Martinez39, you seem to not grasp what the meat part James 5:14-15 is from and is about. If you contextually had read James 5:14-15, you would have easily found out that the meat part was putting forward a plan for consideration to others, that was in how to have patience in suffering and as a result of that suggested the prayer of faith, all this towards to, ginger self up, while on the way to full good health recovery.

God is no respecter of persons, it dont matter if its Muslims, Atheists, Traditionalists, Buddhists and/or Hindus who wants to take advantage of James 5:14-15

Dishonesty at it's peak. I wouldn't bother to argue against your laughable interpretation. Are Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, and Traditionalists, church elders? That's the bone of contention.

"⁵Why do you want more beatings? Why do you keep rebelling? Your head has a massive wound, and your whole heart is afflicted.
⁶From the sole of your foot to the top of your head, there is no soundness
— only wounds and welts and festering sores not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil."
- Isaiah 1:5-6

Well in those biblical times, oil was part of services of modern ancient medicine my dear nwanne friend. If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know

Oil and balms were part of medicine in those days but to heal with oil is not necessarily the same as anointing someone with oil. When a prophet anoints someone with oil, does it necessarily mean that they want to heal someone? Beside, it was also mentioned that the prayer of faith will heal the sick. Which is doing the healing here, the oil or the prayer of faith? Is there any sickness that the oil cannot cure in an unbeliever but would in a believer because he/she has made a prayer of faith? If the oil was doing the healing, wouldn't the bible have said that oil would heal the sick?

Despite the oils and balms, miracles were a banality and the bible promises it to those who ask in faith and believe. You are shying away from this as a cop-out to absolve yourself of the responsibility of believing in the miraculous. This is something I pointed out in the op. You are also trying to make it out to be that the bible has no hands in the fatal and misleading practice of faith healing. I see you.

I expect more mental gymnastics from you.

What people dont understand they laugh at

Not always true. Sometimes, you know something so well to know it deserves to be laughed at.

The bearing, Matthew 6:33 has over those verses, is that some other things are worthier to think about that others

Hehe. It still doesn't change the fact that James 5:14-15 provides a concise and clear way to heal diseases using faith and prayer only.

I rest my case with you. No more arguments from me.

Martinez39, people are littering this thread with salads!

XxSabrinaxX:
Martinez39, people are littering this thread with salads!

Sour salads.

Martinez39:
This is a bigger lie. This is a lie told out of shameless dishonesty. The book of James was written to believers. Shameful of you to tell a cheap lie for Jesus.

That was an unintended misspeak, which has rightly now since being corrected

Martinez39:
It has a lot to do with self deceit. When you interpret "church elders" as doctors (which include Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and other unbelievers), you have bestowed upon yourself a dishonesty and a ludicrous notion that no one can argue with. You really mean to tell me that you don't know what is meant by church elders?

Please show me where and what "church elders" has been interpreted to

Martinez39:
Absolute rubbish. Your point is?

What is absolute rubbish to some, is fragrant potpourri to others. The point is, God forbid, you find yourself in a life and death difficult, unpleasant situation, then you might understand how having patience in suffering and the prayer of faith, becomes a God gift, with what to ginger self up, while on the way to full good health recovery.

Martinez39:
Dishonesty at it's peak. I wouldn't bother to argue against your laughable interpretation. Are Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, and Traditionalists, church elders? That's the bone of contention.

Anybody can key in to the role of "church elders" You wouldnt find it laughable if you understood the interpretation, obviously you dont understand it

Martinez39:
Oil and balms were part of medicine in those days but to heal with oil is not necessarily the same as anointing someone with oil. When a prophet anoints someone with oil, does it necessarily mean that they want to heal someone? Beside, it was also mentioned that the prayer of faith will heal the sick. Which is doing the healing here, the oil or the prayer of faith? Is there any sickness that the oil cannot cure in an unbeliever but would in a believer because he/she has made a prayer of faith? If the oil was doing the healing, wouldn't the bible have said that oil would heal the sick?

I see you want to split hairs, right?

Martinez39:
Despite the oils and balms, miracles were a banality and the bible promises it to those who ask in faith and believe. You are shying away from this as a cop-out to absolve yourself of the responsibility of believing in the miraculous. This is something I pointed out in the op. You are also trying to make it out to be that the bible has no hands in the fatal and misleading practice of faith healing. I see you.

I do not absolve myself of the responsibility of believing in the miraculous.

I advanced that the bible has no hands in fatal and misleading practice of faith healing and this is take it to the bank 110% true

Martinez39:
I expect more mental gymnastics from you.

The truth at times, is difficult to believe, especially with someone just like you. lol

Martinez39:
Not always true. Sometimes, you know something so well to know it deserves to be laughed at.

The truth is 115% times, you'll always go at what you dont understand with laughing anyway. Nothing new or strange there.

Martinez39:
Hehe. It still doesn't change the fact that James 5:14-15 provides a concise and clear way to heal diseases using faith and prayer only.

First they will laugh, then, given time, they will copy

Martinez39:
I rest my case with you. No more arguments from me.

Suits me dead fine, as I never in the first place had any argument to exchange with yours anyway

XxSabrinaxX:

I'm just saying, buda. You seem to be an excellent chef, aye?

Last nights pizza. I only try.

Martinez39:
The book of James was written to believers.

Not true 39! Not true of the Bible and definitely not true of James who mocked believers for trembling like satan and prefered the labour of your hands to your stupid ignorant worthless faith!

I've gone to the bother of posting the evidence for you least out of your blindness you insist on your beans!

[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=KJV]James 2:14-26 King James Version (KJV)[/url]

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

XxSabrinaxX:
I'm just saying, buda. You seem to be an excellent chef, aye?

budaatum:
Last nights pizza. I only try.

Once you have Asda/Tesco/Iceland/Morrisons/Sainsbury/Waitrose ready rolled round pizza dough, all you have to do is simply go wild with adding cheese and your own favourite toppings, like pineapple, mushroom, diced up jalepeno peppers, onions, sweetcorns, cherry tomatoes etcetera to the base, just as you've done or shown in your uploaded picture chef budaatum and whack it into the oven

MuttleyLaff:
Once you have Asda/Tesco/Sainsbury ready rolled round pizza dough, all you have to do is simply go wild with adding your own favourite toppings to the base, just as you've done or shown in your uploaded picture chef budaatum.

Rolled round pizza dough from Asda/Tesco/Sainsbury? Who does that and says they made pizza?

Please muttley! I make my dough and bread from flour. Here is it sitting in my cupboard!

budaatum:
Rolled round pizza dough from Asda/Tesco/Sainsbury? Who does that and says they made pizza?
Please muttley! I make my dough and bread from flour. Here is it sitting im my cupboard!

Show off. lol
I used to make my bread and even yogurt, but stopped. I think I have pictures I can upload of my past home made bread to share
What I want to redo and make after a first attempt that I wasnt brave enough to eat because I didnt think I did it well and so didnt want to poison myself, is sauerkraut.

Have you or can you do sauerkraut budaatum?. Have you any culture?

Imagine someone saying sleeping and waking is a miracle. JFC the thing is just a puerile mess.

And you were doing ever so well muttley! Can't you just hold your tongue instead of feeling the need to open your mouth when you have nothing worthwhile to say?

So, correcting your misconception of you ignorantly belittling my pizza is "show off"? Now see you competing as if 39s thread is "who's pizza is better" despite the fact that you yourself claim your own pizza was poison!

I'm dealing here with a person who suffers like you do and suggest you learn from a thread of one who wisely owns up he has problems.

MuttleyLaff:
Show off. lol
I used to make my bread and even yogurt, but stopped. I think I have pictures I can upload of my past home made bread to share
What I want to redo and make after a first attempt that I wasnt brave enough to eat because I didnt think I did it well and so didnt want to poison myself, is sauerkraut

budaatum:

Not true 39! Not true of the Bible and definitely not true of James who mocked believers for trembling like satan and prefered the labour of your hands to your stupid ignorant worthless faith!

No no no. The book of James was written to believers. Read the first five verses of James. Mocking someone in a letter doesn't mean that you aren't writing to them. How you can think like this shows your beans wasn't well cooked.

I've gone to the bother of posting the evidence for you least out of your blindness you insist on your beans!

[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=KJV]James 2:14-26 King James Version (KJV)[/url]

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ah! Got you! Faith without works, as used by the bible, refers to having faith but not acting like you have faith. Let's analyse.

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

Here, we see how faith is backed by works and how the believer is justified. Abraham had faith in god and he backed that up by absolutely trusting god with Isaac. That was his work. His actions which showed he had faith were his works and his works made his faith perfect (vs. 22). It's like saying that people who profess to be vegetarians but don't act it by eating meat should be dismissed as vegetarians. In other words, James is saying that if your actions don't show that you have faith, your faith is dead.

"25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

Rahab had faith that the god of the Isrealites is supreme; that the spies were God's children; and God was going to fulfil his promises to them as seen in Joshua 2:8-12 What were her works or, rather, her actions that proved she really had faith? She took the great risk of hiding the spies, thereby defying the orders of the King of Jericho, (Joshua 2:2-4) and telling them to remember her and save her and her family. Her actions showed she had faith.

Many christians, you and muttleylaff included, have tried to twist "faith without works is dead" to mean that if one prays to god for something, one must work it out. This is just a cop-out, a cop-out shrouded in dishonesty (and/or ignorance) to absolve oneself of the responsibility of believing in the miraculous. It also sounds very stupid and ridiculous when we reason that if one is going to work things out at the end of the day, what's the point of prayer? More ridiculous it becomes when you see that prayer without works fails, work without prayer works, and prayer plus works achieve similar results as works alone.

Given all these, is it not justified, according to the bible, for one to pray with faith to yahweh for healing and then doing away with with medical help while proclaiming that the disease is gone? Rejecting medical help and proclaiming that one is healed and no longer has the illness are the works (the actions that shows one has faith). This is how many sincere believers who are straight forward with accepting the scriptures and have the mental fortitude to put in practice what they've read are harmed.

It's ironic that an ex-christian atheist knows the bible much better than a believer.


XxSabrinaxX, CAPSLOCKED, LordReed, Michellekabod2, HopefulLandlord, johnydon22

Martinez39:
No no no. The book of James was written to believers

I didnt dispute this to you.

Martinez39:
Ah! Got you! Faith without works, as used by the bible, refers to having faith but not acting like you have faith. Let's analyse.

Faith with work operates within the confine of rules. I previously had advanced this info to you nah. C'mon whats there to analyse, huh?

Martinez39:
Many christians, you and muttleylaff included, have tried to twist "faith without works is dead" to mean that if one prays to god for something, one must work it out.

Reproduce here word for word where you found MuttleyLaff say this. If you fail in this, then simply retract this statement and make an apology to MuttleyLaff for misrepresenting MuttleyLaff

Martinez39:
This is just a cop-out, a cop-out shrouded in dishonesty (and/or ignorance) to absolve oneself of the responsibility of believing in the miraculous. It also sounds very stupid and ridiculous when we reason that if one is going to work things out at the end of the day, what's the point of prayer? More ridiculous it becomes when you see that prayer without works fails, work without prayer works, and prayer plus works achieve similar results as works alone.

Ogbeni, you previously on this thread have being given a high-level overview. and example of what the miraculous or miracle is. Wetin remain you want now, hmm?

Prayer, just by itself without work, is sure banker, its going to fail naah haba.What's the point of work with prayers, if it already works without prayer huh? Maybe you're talking of gratitude or thanksgiving prayer though.

Martinez39:
Given all these, is it not justified, according to the bible, for one to pray with faith to yahweh for healing and then doing away with with medical help while proclaiming that the disease is gone? Rejecting medical help and proclaiming that one is healed and no longer has the illness are the works (the actions that shows one has faith). This is how many sincere believers who are straight forward with accepting the scriptures and have the mental fortitude to put in practice what they've read are harmed.

[quote author=Martinez39 post=83506832]It's ironic that an ex-christian atheist knows the bible much better than a believer.

Not more than this MuttleyLaff believer, you dont

budaatum:
And you were doing ever so well muttley! Can't you just hold your tongue instead of feeling the need to open your mouth when you have nothing worthwhile to say?

I bet you think "lol" is just fanciful typo decoration. Smh.

budaatum:
So, correcting your misconception of you ignorantly belittling my pizza is "show off"?

[img]https://s3/images/tbj.jpg[/img]
I finally have resigned myself to the fact that at the best of times you have no sense of humour in you and fail to recognise a joke or tease.

budaatum:
Now see you competing as if 39s thread is "who's pizza is better" despite the fact that you yourself claim your own pizza was poison!

If you've mistaken sauerkraut for pizza, I guess you dont know what sauerkraut is then and me asking you whether you've done or can you do sauerkraut budaatum or that do you have any sauerkraut culture, is pointless then.

budaatum:
I'm dealing here with a person who suffers like you do

Here we go again

budaatum:
and suggest you learn from a thread of one who wisely owns up he has problems

I suggest you dont take to heart any of the Martinez39 dispassionate comments here and fyi, how dare you tell me to learn from a thread of one who wisely owns up he has problems, when I havent ever confided in you that I have problems, even if I do, its not like I dont know how to take care of them or where to take them to