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Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion - European Football (EPL, UEFA, La Liga) (7229) - Nairaland

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Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:01pm On Nov 04, 2019
weedtaker:
doesn't these have to do more with the way the team is set up? Liverpool for instance gets their creativity from their full backs, under Ferguson we use our wingers, I think even Alves was creating more chances than xavi and iniesta under Guardiola.

Generally, forward players (wingers, number 10 and number 9) create most chances in every team and league. There may be a rare situation where another player is doing well. But usually a rare situation. The way team is set up has little to do with it.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:03pm On Nov 04, 2019
Ibime:


Another Elampiro classic

I am surprised you are the one talking like this.

How did Baines went higher than Silva (best creator EPL has seen) in one six months stats assessment?
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by weedtaker: 7:08pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


Generally, forward players (wingers, number 10 and number 9) create most chances in every team and league. There may be a rare situation where another player is doing well. But usually a rare situation.
I agree with dis.

The way team is set up has little to do with it.
I don't agree with dis, the way a team is set up plays a part, take our game against Liverpool for instance, they didn't create many chances cuz we didn't allow their full backs into the game, leaving mane and firmino clueless in attack.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:09pm On Nov 04, 2019
Ibime:


When did Fabregas play in the hole for Chelsea?


Under Mourinho second coming. He used Oscar or Fabregas in the hole.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by weedtaker: 7:13pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


Under Mourinho second coming. He used Oscar or Fabregas in the hole.
No, fabregas played as deep lying playmaker, his chance creation stats was boosted due to him being in charge of set piece.

I think from open play hazard was the highest creator.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:14pm On Nov 04, 2019
weedtaker:
I agree with dis.

I don't agree with dis, the way a team is set up plays a part, take our game against Liverpool for instance, they didn't create many chances cuz we didn't allow their full backs into the game, leaving mane and firmino clueless in attack.
Where were their full backs last season when Liverpool won the UCL? The front three are still the highest contribution to CC, although they have a defender that has risen atop this season.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:16pm On Nov 04, 2019
weedtaker:
No, fabregas played as deep lying playmaker, his chance creation stats was boosted due to him being in charge of set piece.

I think from open play hazard was the highest creator.

I remember well he played in the hole in some games. Even Mourinho said something about that.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by patrickmuf(m): 7:19pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


But De Bruyne is not a midfielder
I don't understand...
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by weedtaker: 7:19pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:
Where were their full backs last season when Liverpool won the UCL?
What? they were phenomenal!
The front three are still the highest contribution to CC, although they have a defender that has risen atop this season.
Which is bcuz of the way the team is set up.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by airmark(m): 7:23pm On Nov 04, 2019
raumdeuter:


Facts alone. Let Martial play under a better coach and you will see

Not these NYSC coaches

grin grin grin grin

Mumu excuse, as if other players didn't shine under Mou.

1 Like

Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by airmark(m): 7:30pm On Nov 04, 2019
raumdeuter:


17 goals in all competitions that season under LvG

17 goals in 49 matches, is 'did well' for you. grin grin grin

1 Like

Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:31pm On Nov 04, 2019
patrickmuf:
I don't understand...

De Brunye is traditionally number 10 or wing forward.

It is same reason Ashley Young can do well with stats. He was a winger too.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by raumdeuter: 7:40pm On Nov 04, 2019
airmark:

grin grin grin grin

Mumu excuse, as if other players didn't shine under Mou.

How many Man Utd players shone under Mourinho
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:42pm On Nov 04, 2019
This match August 30th 2014, Mourinho used Fabregas in the hole. I have no doubt I will see many of such if I search.

But I have to work now.

Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by raumdeuter: 7:47pm On Nov 04, 2019
airmark:


17 goals in 49 matches, is 'did well' for you. grin grin grin

How many seasons did Hazard have more that 17 goals in the season despite being the chief penalty taker for his team

These are Hazard your MCMs goals contribution in the 7 seasons at Chelsea

Hazard 2018/19 21 goals in 52 games
2017/18 17 goals in 51 matches
2016/17 17 goals in 43 matches
2015/16 6 goals in 43 matches
2014/15 19 goals in 52 matches
2013/14 17 goals in 49matches
2012/13 13 goals in 62 matches

4 Likes

Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:53pm On Nov 04, 2019
weedtaker:
What? they were phenomenal! .

Their creative stat last season didnt say so compared to the forward players.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by codedguy1(m): 7:53pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


The argument is simple. Generally, naturally, attacking players are the creators. However, we have on rare occasion defenders like Baines, and came top. If Baines did not craete that much, he wouldn't be held liable. But Silva, Mata would be held liable. Same way you would not hold Fenadinho liable if he doesn't create.



How? DM and CM do not have primary duty to create. It is the Wingers and Central Attacking Midfielder (number10 in the hole) who have this primary function, then number 9.



Professional analysts always separate chances created from open play from chances created from set play. Chances created from set play can tilt figures in favour of someone taking all the set plays.


There so many holes to pick on this your reply but I no get time to argue.

The crux of the discussion was chances created and not how they were created.

Some of the 60% set piece you are degrading from young could have been created/acquired by these same players you expect yo create.

Maybe in the process of creating the chances they were fouled and got a free kick or corner grin

Na for strikers to convert the CC naaim be the koko regardless of who create it.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by patrickmuf(m): 7:55pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


De Brunye is traditionally number 10 or wing forward.

It is same reason Ashley Young can do well with stats. He was a winger too.
De Bruyne from any position will still do well.

When Manchester City attacks, you see Mendy on the left stretching the play, Aguero is always in the box, Sterling tucks in to add more bodies in the box, Bernardo Silva tucks in too to allow Walker the space to drive forward, De Bruyne moves toward the right wing waiting for a cut back so can whoop in those his devilish crosses. In front of the defence, David Silva and Gundogan are waiting to recycle possession and in midfield, you have the CBs who push forward to narrow the pitch.

At Liverpool, Robertson and TAA occupy the wings when Liverpool attack allowing Mane and Salah to tuck in giving them more options in the box, Firmino drops to the edge of the box...Thats 5 players in that attacking sequence. To cover for the overlapping full backs, Henderson moves to the RW in any case of a counter, Van Dijk and Matip push up close to the midfield and Fabinho is stationed around the modified to provide cover with Wijnaldum ahead to recycle possession...

At United when we attack, Rashford gets the ball, he starts running, when he looks for options, he can't pass to Martial because he is heavily marked, thus he turns and passes back to Young. Same thing happens when James has the ball, he begins to run but there's no overlapping full back or AMF in the same wavelength and with Martial heavily marked, he elects to go it alone until he is dispossessed or fouled. I have seen enough of our games where you'll find yourself screaming that Young and AWB should bomb forward but no (Young is even better). Pereira who should be very close to the attacks will be couple of yards behind thus we have to delay the play to allow them the chance to join the attack by which time the opposition has regrouped. McTominay has been trying of late but he arrives late and most times his shots ends up being blocked...Watch our games and you'll observe what I am trying to point out, as a midfielder and even defender, you progress with the movement of the ball, how will we be on the attack yet Maguire, Lindelof and in some cases Rojo will be seen very deep in our half of the pitch? In a normal scenario, Rashford and James shouldn't be the ones whooping in balls, that's the work of our fullbacks and our midfielders should be around the edge of the box or thereabout with the defenders close to the midfield especially when we are up against small teams.

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Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 7:55pm On Nov 04, 2019
codedguy1:



There so many holes to pick on this your reply but I no get time to argue.

The crux of the discussion was chances created and not how they were created.

Some of the 60% set piece you are degrading from young could have been created/acquired by these same players you expect yo create.

Maybe in the process of creating the chances they were fouled and got a free kick or corner grin

Na for strikers to convert the CC naaim be the koko regardless of who create it.

There is only one way to create a chance in football. Same with Assists. Same with goal.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 8:01pm On Nov 04, 2019
patrickmuf:
De Bruyne from any position will still do well.

When Manchester City attacks, you see Mendy on the left stretching the play, Aguero is always in the box, Sterling tucks in to add more bodies in the box, Bernardo Silva tucks in too to allow Walker the space to drive forward, De Bruyne moves toward the right wing waiting for a cut back so can whoop in those his devilish crosses. In front of the defence, David Silva and Gundogan are waiting to recycle possession and in midfield, you have the CBs who push forward to narrow the pitch.

At Liverpool, Robertson and TAA occupy the wings when Liverpool attack allowing Mane and Salah to tuck in giving them more options in the box, Firmino drops to the edge of the box...Thats 5 players in that attacking sequence. To cover for the overlapping full backs, Henderson moves to the RW in any case of a counter, Van Dijk and Matip push up close to the midfield and Fabinho is stationed around the modified to stop provide cover with Wijnaldum ahead to recycle possession...

At United when we aatck, Rashford gets the ball, he starts running, when he looks for options, he can't pass to Martial because he is heavily marked, thus he turns and passes back to Young. Same thing happens when James has the ball, he begins to run but there's no overlapping full back or AMF in the same wavelength and with Martial heavily marked, he elects to go it alone until he is dispossessed or fouled. I have seen enough of our games where you'll find yourself screaming that Young and AWB should bomb forward but no (Young is even better). Pereira who should be very close to the attacks will be couple of yards behind thus we have to delay the play to allow them chance to join the attack by which time the opposition has regrouped. McTominay has been trying of late but he arrives late and most times his shots ends up being blocked...Watch our games and you'll observe what I am trying to point out, as a midfielder and even defender, you progress with the movement of the ball, how will we be on the attack yet Maguire, Lindelof and in some cases Rojo will be seen very deep in our half of the pitch? In a normal scenario, Rashford and James shouldn't be the ones whooping in balls, that's the work of our fullbacks and our midfielders should be around the dge of the box or thereabout with the defenders close to the midfield especially when we are up against small teams.

Nani did not have this excuse when they played in front of Wes Brown. Sometimes it was Brown on the right, Oshea on the left and Nani in front of Brown, Rooney in front of Osea. They still won heavily. No excuse.

Our forward players cannot breakdown defence. chikena. Luke Shaw was in form last season playing behind those guys, it was same story. Pogba plays too, same story.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 8:03pm On Nov 04, 2019
The defender needs a player in front of him to be creative for him to also be creative.

Is it defender that makes them to miss penalties? To miss clear headers from six yard? To keep shooting wayward from edge of the box? To no make an intelligent through ball or lob over the defence?

2 Likes

Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by patrickmuf(m): 8:08pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


Nani did not have this excuse when they played in front of Wes Brown. Sometimes it was Brown on the right, Oshea on the left and Nani in front of Brown, Rooney in front of Osea. They still won heavily. No excuse.

Our forward players cannot breakdown defence. chikena. Luke Shaw was in form last season playing behind those guys, it was same story. Pogba plays too, same story.
When we had Nani, you had an Evra who was like a left winger when we attacked, you had Giggs who dropped deep to free up space for a marauding Evra, we had Scholes who could switch play to our advantage with a raking long ball from midfield, we had Berbatov and Rooney in the box enough bodies in attack to stretch the opposition. Scholes sef joined the attack as soon as we went forward.

And Brown didn't play as our RB in many games.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by airmark(m): 8:09pm On Nov 04, 2019
raumdeuter:


[s]How many seasons did Hazard have more that 17 goals in the season despite being the chief penalty taker for his team

These are Hazard your MCMs goals contribution in the 7 seasons at Chelsea

Hazard 2018/19 21 goals in 52 games
2017/18 17 goals in 51 matches
2016/17 17 goals in 43 matches
2015/16 6 goals in 43 matches
2014/15 19 goals in 52 matches
2013/14 17 goals in 49matches
2012/13 13 goals in 62 matches
[/s]

grin grin grin

Hazard under Mou- 19 goals + 13 assists

Martial under Mou - 11 goals + 9 assists

You get pikin wey be olodo, you say na teacher no good.

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Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by ChristoBam: 8:11pm On Nov 04, 2019
larride:


Did Lukaku outscore Martial or not?
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by ChristoBam: 8:11pm On Nov 04, 2019
larride:

Did Lukaku outscore Martial or not?
Let's not forget about 4 of Martial's goals were penalties.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by KingTom(m): 8:14pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:
The defender needs a player in front of him to be creative for him to also be creative.

Is it defender that makes them to miss penalties? To miss clear headers from six yard? To keep shooting wayward from edge of the box? To no make an intelligent through ball or lob over the defence?

This makes sense, can't say the same for the others but this makes sense
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by patrickmuf(m): 8:16pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:
The defender needs a player in front of him to be creative for him to also be creative.

Is it defender that makes them to miss penalties? To miss clear headers from six yard? To keep shooting wayward from edge of the box? To no make an intelligent through ball or lob over the defence?

At Barcelona, who was in front of Alves?

If you watch Manchester City (Zichenko/Mendy and Walker) , Liverpool (Robertson and TAA) , Barcelona (Alba), Madrid (Marcelo and Carvajal), Bayern (Alaba and Kimmich), Juventus (Alex Sandro), Dortmund (Guerrero and Piszczek), Chelsea (Emerson/Alonso), Atletico (Formally Juan Fran and Felipe Luis now Trippier) and can't get the point we are making about overlapping fullbacks, I am sorry I can't help you.

Our midfield is even worse...
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 8:16pm On Nov 04, 2019
patrickmuf:
When we had Nani, you had an Evra who was like a left winger when we attacked, you had Giggs who dropped deep to free up space for a marauding Evra, we had Scholes who could switch play to our advantage with a raking long ball from midfield, we had Berbatov and Rooney in the box enough bodies in attack to stretch the opposition. Scholes sef joined the attack as soon as we went forward.

And Brown didn't play as our RB in many games.

There times injuries forced us to play what I will call second eleven. So even with the scenario I painted above, Nani will still be single handedly shaking defence on the right.

You guys think even if we bring Xavi, the likes of Pereira will begin to perform magic? These attacking players have to lift their games. But Pereira as a number 10 or a right winger is a let down already.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 8:17pm On Nov 04, 2019
patrickmuf:
At Barcelona, who was in front of Alves?

If you watch Manchester City (Zichenko/Mendy and Walker) , Liverpool (Robertson and TAA) , Barcelona (Alba), Madrid (Marcelo and Carvajal), Bayern (Alaba and Kimmich), Juventus (Alex Sandro), Dortmund (Guerrero and Piszczek), Chelsea (Emerson/Alonso), Atletico (Formally Juan Fran and Felipe Luis now Trippier) and can't get the point we are making about overlapping fullbacks, I am sorry I can't help you.

Our midfield is even worse.
..

The attack is our major problem.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 8:20pm On Nov 04, 2019
Players like Raphael, Fabio, Oshea, Fletcher, may never have recognized outside Manchester United. But from hindsight, it is our attacking players who made those defenders appear very good. Not the other way round.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by patrickmuf(m): 8:21pm On Nov 04, 2019
elampiro:


There times injuries forced us to play what I will call second eleven. So even with the scenario I painted above, Nani will still be single handedly shaking defence on the right.

You guys think even if we bring Xavi, the likes of Pereira will begin to perform magic? These attacking players have to lift their games. But Pereira as a number 10 or a right winger is a let down already.
Has anybody here insinuated such? We are saying Pereira is poor, just as Fred...We are also saying our fullbacks should push higher up the pitch when we are up against small teams...I have seen Messi use the run of Suarez as a decoy to get past defenders. Robben use to use the run of Lahm too to get past a defender. When we had Valencia, Mata could play on the RW and still be effective because Valencia provided the necessary width for him to move in field without affecting us.
Re: Official Manchester United Fan Thread:''20 Times EPL Champion by elampiro(m): 8:25pm On Nov 04, 2019
In the beginning of 2007/2008, one of Rooney or Ronaldo was out injured. We were struggling. But some initial moment of brilliance from the attacking players kept giving 1-0 win. Nani had one rocket from long range to win us a match. In another period, it was hard to break down defence when we played at home, cos opponents came to just park the bus. But the attackers were coming up with something special.

The first player we need to buy is a number 10 or a great attacking midfielder. Not this Pererira or Mata forming number 10.

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