XxSabrinaxX:

You see the dots? That's more than we see of your god. The demonstration is your admission.

XxSabrinaxX:

You see the dots? That's more than we see of your god. The demonstration is your admission.

Besides, If it's a painted disc, how come I can use a magnifying glass to burn things? I'll tell you what, Ihedinobi3, take a good long look at the painted disc through a pair of binoculars at midday, it can't hurt you after all

missjo:

Hi LordReed, it's been a minute since I contributed to religious discussions here but please allow me to share what I have studied on this. The topic of the death & resurrection is of great interest to me.

First of all, the answer to your question is an emphatic YES, the prophesy of three mornings(daylight) and three evenings(night) was fulfilled LITERALLY.

By the old Jewish system of days & nights, a new day began at sunset (6pm) instead of midnight (12am) as we observe presently.
Jesus the Christ died on a wednesday between the hours of 12noon and 3pm (Matt 27:45-56).

How can we be sure it was a Wednesday?
Because of this passage:
John 19:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The Sabbath being referred to here does not speak of the regular Jewish Sabbath of Saturday, but rather the high day of the passover (as emphasized by John in his use of parenthesis to explain) also called a Sabbath. This "high day" was held on Thursdays.

Between 3pm and 6pm of Wednesday is the period where Joseph of Arimathea besought Pilate to release the body of Jesus to him for burial (Matthew 27:57-61). All of this could very well have taken approximately 3hours and by the time Jesus was laid in the tomb, it was already a little bit past 6pm of Wednesday.

Now if we start counting from 6pm on Wednesday (remember a new day starts at 6pm), then:
6pm Wednesday - 6pm Thursday = Day 1
6pm Thursday - 6pm Friday = Day 2
6pm Friday - 6pm Saturday = Day 3
Every day of the above is complete with 24hours of evening and morning (Note that the old testament bible records a full day by referring to it as evening and morning, never as morning and evening; another proof that a new day starts at 6pm).

The particular time and hour that Jesus arose can not be ascertained because no one witnessed it. The soldiers who kept watch outside the tomb only witnessed the earthquake and the angel rolling back the stone covering of the tomb which happened to grant Mary Magdalene and Mary mother of James, access into the sepulchre (this happened very early on Sunday morning).

John 20:1 calls it the first day of the week (Sunday) and he wrote that it was still dark (probably about 5am).
Mathew 28:1 says it in much the same way calling it the end of the Sabbath (Saturday) as it began to dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday).

As at the time these two women got there, he had already risen some time after sunset on Saturday evening without the knowledge of the soldiers outside who stood guard. As far as they were concerned, the body of Jesus was still in the tomb by the time the two Marys got there at about 5am on Sunday morning.

Ihedinobi3:

I think you're having a different argument from the one I am having.

The issue is that those dots are not giant balls of gas or rock. They are just shiny dots on the Great Dome of the sky. There is no proof of any "outer space" or giant gas balls.

If you can prove the existence of outer space and your giant balls of gas and rock to me, then I will prove the existence of God to you too.


The paint is very very shiny.

missjo:
... it's been a minute since I contributed to religious discussions here but please allow me to share what I have studied on this. The topic of the death & resurrection is of great interest to me.

First of all, the answer to your question is an emphatic YES, the prophesy of three mornings(daylight) and three evenings(night) was fulfilled LITERALLY.

By the old Jewish system of days & nights, a new day began at sunset (6pm) instead of midnight (12am) as we observe presently.
Jesus the Christ died on a wednesday between the hours of 12noon and 3pm (Matt 27:45-56).

How can we be sure it was a Wednesday?
Because of this passage:
John 19:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The Sabbath being referred to here does not speak of the regular Jewish Sabbath of Saturday, but rather the high day of the passover (as emphasized by John in his use of parenthesis to explain) also called a Sabbath. This "high day" was held on Thursdays.

Between 3pm and 6pm of Wednesday is the period where Joseph of Arimathea besought Pilate to release the body of Jesus to him for burial (Matthew 27:57-61). All of this could very well have taken approximately 3hours and by the time Jesus was laid in the tomb, it was already a little bit past 6pm of Wednesday.

Now if we start counting from 6pm on Wednesday (remember a new day starts at 6pm), then:
6pm Wednesday - 6pm Thursday = Day 1
6pm Thursday - 6pm Friday = Day 2
6pm Friday - 6pm Saturday = Day 3
Every day of the above is complete with 24hours of evening and morning (Note that the old testament bible records a full day by referring to it as evening and morning, never as morning and evening; another proof that a new day starts at 6pm).

The particular time and hour that Jesus arose can not be ascertained because no one witnessed it. The soldiers who kept watch outside the tomb only witnessed the earthquake and the angel rolling back the stone covering of the tomb which happened to grant Mary Magdalene and Mary mother of James, access into the sepulchre (this happened very early on Sunday morning).

John 20:1 calls it the first day of the week (Sunday) and he wrote that it was still dark (probably about 5am).
Mathew 28:1 says it in much the same way calling it the end of the Sabbath (Saturday) as it began to dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday).

As at the time these two women got there, he had already risen some time after sunset on Saturday evening without the knowledge of the soldiers outside who stood guard. As far as they were concerned, the body of Jesus was still in the tomb by the time the two Marys got there at about 5am on Sunday morning.

MuttleyLaff:
Follow below

It always has been Good Thursday nwanne.

"It was the day of preparation, and the Jewish leaders didn’t want the bodies hanging there the next day, which was the Sabbath
(and a very special Sabbath, because it was Passover week).
So they asked Pilate to hasten their deaths by ordering that their legs be broken. Then their bodies could be taken down."
- John 19:31

It has to be on the authority of John 19:31 above, and no, I dont need to wanna try Good Wednesday because of the fact that the Last Supper occurred on Wednesday, never a Thursday, thus Christ was, in fact, crucified on Thursday, never a Friday.

Thursday day to Thursday night: Jesus was on the cross by 9:00am, He died by 3:00pm and He was off the cross before sundown, so means, 1 day and 1 night
The Jewish day starts at sundown or nightfall of the previous evening, and continues throughout the night and following day, until the next night.
Friday morning to Friday night day: 1 day and 1 night
Saturday morning to Saturday night: 1 day and 1 night (i.e. Jesus rosed before sunrise)
Sunday morning: Resurrection morning

LordReed:
The bible says it was to fulfil a prophecy so was it fulfilled?

MuttleyLaff:
If you are catholic christian, yes

Yep, you are on point on all your account(s)



No sire, a ribitoye, because the Jewish day begins and ends at sundown, as in, the time in the evening when the sun disappears or daylight fades. Jesus was on the cross by 9:00am, died by 3:00pm Thursday day and was buried on same Thursday day before sundown
cc pa xonel

Shepherd00:

So, now you believe what the Bible says? As in, Did Jesus ever lived on earth?

Ihedinobi3:

Hello MissJo.

Going by your submission above, the Lord was in the tomb for more than three days and three nights then yielding a similar problem.

MuttleyLaff:

.

Ob3kpa:
Even Christians will be ashamed of you
How dare you say the sun is a painted disk and the paint is shiny so that makes it hot. That is just stupidity in my opinion.
Even elementary school students know better than this

LordReed:


According to your timeline the women who were to dress his body did not go to the grave for 3 days - Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Why does the text not say so? The text gives the almost unquestionable idea that they only had one day, Saturday, of separation.

missjo:

Not true sir.
Once you disregard the false notion that his death and burial happened on a Friday, every other thing begins to make sense and fall in place.

Refer to and/or research the High Day of the passover (Thursday Sabbath) as emphasized by the Gospel of John in 19:31.

They didn't go on Thursday because it was a High day of passover. They prepared the spices on Friday. They didn't go on Saturday because it was the main Sabbath. Very early on Sunday morning was convenient, they did not even want to wait for the sun to come up.

missjo:

How did you come to this conclusion sir?

6pm Wednesday - 6pm Saturday has three full 12hrs daylight & 12hr evenings making a full day in each of the three days.
The exact time Jesus arose is something you will never find any literature on because it was only at about 5am on Sunday morning that Mary Magdalene and the mother of James find the tomb empty. Jesus could very well have risen the previous day at the exact hour of a three-day period (exactly 6pm) or one hour after 6pm Saturday, two hours, or three hours after 6pm, etc.. No one knows the exact time.

Considering that every single prophesy given by God regarding the coming Son of David (through the Virgin mother Mary descended from Nathan who was one of David's sons), the Zionic King of Israel (through the earthly father Joseph descended from the Kingly line of Solomon, Another of David's sons), were totally exact and perfect, then I as a believer have chosen to believe that Jesus rose on the exact time down to the second of a complete 3-day span because Jehovah is a God of perfection.





Regarding your opinion on the Sabbath, sir it's common historical knowledge that the High day of the passover in Jewish culture held on Thursdays, and it is also referred to as Sabbath. If John in his gospel had not even noted this particular sabbath was the high day, scholars would naturally have assumed it was a Friday - Saturday count. Just the insertion of the "high day" reference is enough to squash any doubt that the count started on 6pm Wednesday.

Moses in Genesis deliberately noted how the creator counts a human day:
Genesis 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

[Evening and morning NOT morning and evening]

You of all people should know that most scriptures can always be confirmed by reference to another.
In which case, anyone who still believes that Jesus was buried on a Friday and not found in the sepulchre on Sunday morning will definitely have a hard time proving that he spent 3days & 3nights as prophesied. Prophesies from God were mostly fulfilled literally and I doubt you will find any in the entire compilation of the present Bible that wasn't fulfilled literally, not to mention when it now involved a Prophesy of God himself becoming flesh, dying and resurrecting.

By the way, sixth hour and ninth hour in the Jewish clock is 12noon and 3pm respectively. I just inserted this here for anyone who wants to confirm the exact time darkness came over the land while Jesus hung on the cross an also the exact time Joseph of Arimathea enters the story to talk to Pilate.

Cheers.




cc: ______

LordReed:


Ok so it was not literal or the account in the bible is not accurate?

XxSabrinaxX:
We have no records of a magical working prophet contemporary to the life of this Jesus person. NONE. We do have records of about 8 other prophets during the same time period; however, regarding the guy that allegedly cause earthquakes, a darkness to fall over the earth, the blind to see, the lame to walk, the dead to rise from their graves, history is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY silent. If Jesus lived, not a single soul noticed him or had anything at all to say about him during his life. No one noticed his ride into the city on the back of an ass, no one noticed the great sermon on the mount, not a single soul watched him walk on water or feed the multitude with loaves and fishes. All we have are stories written by non-observers, generations after the fact. There is no eye witness to anything Jesus allegedly did. NONE.

Lastly and most importantly, we have no reputable account of a resurrection. What we have are 3 contradictory stories that were written more than 70 to 120 years after the supposed event.

What we have is Paul's version that never mentions miracles, virgin birth, or ministry on earth. We have Paul who admits that everything he knows comes from scripture or divine inspiration and he only knows about a Jesus who exists in the heavens. From Paul's version to the gospels, each story gains in complexity.

missjo:
Muttley why are you counting the period of Jesus hanging on the cross as part of the days and nights?

The prophesies do clearly state ... in the grave for three days and three nights.

RandomGuy48:
I literally just explained how it was literal according to the Jewish reckoning of time.

RandomGuy48:
I literally just explained how it was literal according to the Jewish reckoning of time.

RandomGuy48:

This argument is often made. The problem is how few records we actually have from that time period to begin with, and how few of what we do have would have any reason to mention Jesus at all. For example:
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/remslist.php

The dating of the gospels is of course a complicated subject (I favor early dates for the synoptics but can understand the arguments for later ones), but "70-120 years after the supposed event" is a fairly fringe position. Even the more critical scholars date the gospels to the first century, except for perhaps John which sometimes gets put into the early second century. 70 is more akin to the maximum years after Jesus's death for the writing of the gospels by scholars, not the minimum.

As for the stories being contradictory:
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rezrvw.php


Paul would have little reason to go into details about miracles, the virgin birth, or ministry on Earth. Paul's letters, after all, were advice being sent to churches, i.e. people who were already Christians who already knew about the life of Jesus (this is in contrast to the Gospels, where the point was to let people know about the life of Jesus). You don't need to spend time reminding them of things they would have been well acquainted with already, especially given this was a time period where paper wasn't as easy to get and there was reason to save space.

MuttleyLaff:


missjo, it is because Jesus was on the cross by 9:00am, died by 3:00pm Thursday day and was buried on same Thursday day before sundown, thats to fulfil the prophecy that clearly stated "... in the grave for three days and three nights" Also missjo, remember that, a Jewish day begins and ends at sundown, as in, the time in the evening when the sun disappears or daylight fades.

Ihedinobi3:

If the Lord did not rise by 6pm on the dot on Saturday according to your scheme here, then He was dead for more than 72 hours (note also that He died before 6pm on the day that He died and that is really when the count begins because "the heart of the earth" is really Sheol or Hades, not merely the physical tomb in which He was laid). Also, according to the Scriptures, He was to rise on the third day. Your scheme has Him rising on the fourth.

As for when the Lord arose, you can believe that it really was Sunday, because that is why the first day of the week came to be called the Lord's Day in the Bible.

As for the rest of your objection, I already provided an explanation in my first answer on this thread and in that response to you. To recap, first of all, the ancient world had something that historians call "inclusive counting" when they counted days. So, Friday afternoon to Sunday morning would have been three days and three nights to the Jews to whom the Lord Jesus was speaking in Matthew 12:40. Second, political realities of ancient Palestine meant that there were multiple calendars governing different places, so, for example, the Passover was celebrated in Bethany two days before Jerusalem, both on the Sabbath too. So, our Lord ate the Passover the night before He was crucified a day before the Passover too. As far as the Scriptures and the ancient world are concerned, the prophecy of our Lord's time in death was perfectly and literally fulfilled. It doesn't matter that atheists who love lies don't agree.

This is not really an important issue. Of course, all the truths in the Bible are important, but whether you think the Lord Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday or on a Friday is of little account to your Salvation, so I am not going to debate or quarrel with you or anybody about this. I am quite sure that things are as I've just stated, but it is okay if you disagree.

Edited.

missjo:
Yea I noted this in my earlier contribution as well.

Okay.

LordReed:


The text says they rested on THE Sabbath day, not on Sabbath days. Unless you mean to say that THE provides you with some ambiguity, I don't see how you can argue for a 3 day break.

MuttleyLaff:
OK yeah, the "a Jewish day begins and ends at sundown, as in, the time in the evening when the sun disappears or daylight fades" bit you emboldened is uncontestable. Look at the screenshot carefully now.

missjo:
Everything you have contributed is noted sir.

I just have one question regarding the text in bold.
Who saw or observed the exact hour Jesus awakened from the sleep state inside the tomb?

missjo:

John in his gospel made the ambiguity of Matthew's gospel clearer sir, that's what I've been trying to tell you.
The "High Day" Sabbath is the Sabbath actually being referred to.

MuttleyLaff:


"¹After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
²Suddenly there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and sat on it.
³His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.
⁴The guards trembled in fear of him and became like dead men.
⁵But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.
⁶He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay"
- Matthew 28:1-6

The ministering angelic host from heaven, the angel, saw or observed the exact hour Jesus awakened from the sleep state inside the tomb. The angel even told the women Jesus has risen. No one including the guards couldnt see anything because of the heavy stone rolled against the tomb entrance

LordReed:


It does not preclude it from being the weekly Sabbath. Besides there is no description of the events that suggests they rested for 3 intervening days. The bible clearly states they rested on the Sabbath day, singular denotation.

missjo:

Everything you have contributed is noted sir.

I just have one question regarding the text in bold.
Who saw or observed the exact hour Jesus awakened from the sleep state inside the tomb?

LordReed:


I mean it was not a literal 72hr period and going by the timeline given in the bible, it was about 40hrs.

missjo:
Lol smart ass, yes of course the heavens witnessed it.
No human witnessed it.

missjo:
Or are you implying that on that same hour when the angel descended and rolled away the stone, Jesus was also being awakened inside the tomb?

MuttleyLaff:


"¹After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
²Suddenly there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and sat on it.
³His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.
⁴

The guards trembled in fear of him and became like dead men.

⁵But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.
⁶He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay"
- Matthew 28:1-6

The ministering angelic host from heaven, the angel, saw or observed the exact hour Jesus awakened from the sleep state inside the tomb. The angel even told the women Jesus has risen, after 3 days and 3 nights, just as He said He would. No one including the guards could see anything happening inside because of the heavy stone rolled against the tomb entrance

Suddenly there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and sat on it.
³His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.

]The guards trembled in fear of him and became like dead men.

. No one including the guards could see anything happening inside because of the heavy stone rolled against the tomb entrance

²Suddenly there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, rolled away the stone,

kkins25:
*coughs* *clears throat*
Beep beep, lie detected. Beep beep lie detected
lets go back in time
missjo, warning! warning!! warning!!!
Beep beep.

missjo:

Lol smart ass, yes of course the heavens witnessed it.
No human witnessed it.

Or are you implying that on that same hour when the angel descended and rolled away the stone, Jesus was also being awakened inside the tomb?