Daejoyoung:

ok l agree with much of what you said and l am not here to argue too, just to discuss.

l am not going to speak much about your detailed descriptive theology around those verses and l must commend you on your research on the Joel and Jeremiah verses.

However concerning the verse where jesus said whosoever is not against us is for us, it wasn't my intention to say that anybody who doesn't obey the teachings of christ but call him lord, has become a disciple, no far from it.
My point however was that from the context of that verse, the disciples were trying to exclude those guys simply because they were not part of the team, certainly those guys didn't believe jesus enough to even be part of the seventy disciples at least. But jesus was inclusive here.

Read the gospels, jesus rarely taught people to believe in his so called sacrifice as a sacrifice of substitution appeasing God's wrath as many Christians understand it today, but his major message was the coming of the kingdom of God, which was both political and spiritual and is here with us, not marked by human observation nor is it a physical place but in our midst.

An understanding of the cross is of course vital for salvation but substitutionary atonement is what l have doubt about.
But l digress, perhaps that's a topic for another day.

Anyway thanks for the response and clarification.

You may call it "discussion" and another would call it some other name, but if it is no more than a struggle to bend other people to your own way of thinking, then it is what it is, not whatever you wish to call it.

This is not the product of mere "research," I learned from and am still guided by a pastor-teacher as I train to become a fully prepared pastor-teacher myself. This is what I learned from him and what I confirmed is true by reading the Bible.

As for what your intention is, you may not be fully aware of it, but you have just contradicted yourself. Clearly, if the man (there was only one man reported by the disciples to be carrying out exorcisms in Mark 9 and Luke 9) did not believe in Jesus enough to follow Him, then your teaching here is that no one should be excluded from being recognized as a disciple if they are "calling Jesus Lord." It's hard to see what you are saying any other way.

The Bible only actually says that this man was said by the disciples to be casting out evil spirits in the Lord's Name. We can certainly infer that he was unknown to the disciples, but there is no reason at all to infer that he did not believe fully in the Lord Jesus. Many people were secret disciples of the Lord, including Nicodemus who was part of the Sanhedrin. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were also believers in the Lord Jesus, but of them only Mary is known to go around with Him sometimes. The Lord visited them at their home in Bethany for the most part. There was also Zacchaeus whom we only see being visited at his home by the Lord, but we do not see him going everywhere with the Lord. There were also the two men whom the Lord exorcised of evil spirits in the Gadarenes who begged Him to let them follow Him, but whom He sent back to evangelize their hometown. In other words, there is plenty reason to believe that this man whom John was speaking of was also a believer, but he wasn't one of the Twelve who went everywhere with the Lord.

We also know that only anyone who truly believed and to whom the Lord gave that special ability at that time could ever get evil spirits to leave a human body. Not even the Twelve could exorcise demons without the Lord's special provision of power (Mark 9:14-18,28-29). So, if the man was really doing what John reported, then he was most certainly a believer working under the Lord's Authority.

The lesson in that passage was that we were not to exclude others simply because we don't know them. If anyone is doing what the Lord calls us to do, they are brothers and sisters with us. The Lord calls us to believe in Him and grow in the Truth (that is, to learn everything that He teaches through the Bible and believe it) and help others to do the same (John 6:29; 15:1-8 ). If anyone is doing that, the fact that they are not part of our normal physical gathering does not mean that they are not believers too like us. So, for example, the fact that some other believer that I meet on here who may be very zealous about teaching the Bible is not a student of the Ichthys Ministry as I am ought not to mean for me that he is not a believer or a true servant of Christ. It would be wrong for me to reject such a person just because I don't know them. If what they teach is in agreement with the Bible, then I should extend a hand of fellowship to them as well. That is what our Lord was teaching here. He was not saying that if someone is not a believer, but if they can do some miraculous stuff, we are in any way obliged to consider them to be brethren too.

As for your claims about what the Lord Jesus taught, I see no reason that anyone should say what you said. It's quite preposterous. No one could possibly read Matthew to John and make such a statement, unless they just don't want to believe what they read.

20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Matthew 1:20-21 NASB

14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 NASB

20 And He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered and said, “The Christ of God.” 21 But He warned them and instructed them not to tell this to anyone, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.” 23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. 24 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. 25 For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
Luke 9:20-25 NASB

14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:14-18 NASB

All of the Gospels run to the Cross. In fact, all of the Bible runs to the Cross and then the epistles and Revelation and all the prophecies of the Old Testament open out from it. The Cross is the foundation of all Creation. You say that an understanding of it is vital to salvation but you doubt "substitutionary atonement," but that is a contradiction. You have said elsewhere that the Cross was something that the Lord Jesus accepted to protect His disciples from the Romans, but I cannot for the life of me see how that computes from anything anyone can actually read in the Bible.

In the Old Testament, beginning from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, the Lord God Himself has always taught that a payment of blood, that is, life, must be made in order for the sins of the human race to be expunged. The very first mention of this is in Genesis 3:15. Following upon this was the bloody sacrifice that the Lord carried out to give Adam and Eve coats of skin to wear as they left the Garden. The couple's acceptance of those coats was their acceptance of the Sacrifice of a Substitute in their behalf for their sin. That is, the Lord had commanded death if they ever sinned against Him. When they did, in order to spare their lives, He killed something else in their behalf. That something else was not really the animal from which He obtained the coats of skin for them. The animal was only a symbol. It was the Seed of the Woman Who would come much later in history that the animal represented. Theologically, that act of the Lord's in the Garden is called the protoevangelium or first gospel.

Every animal sacrifice after that that followed the Lord's Teaching to the couple in Eden was a deliberate identification of the offerer with the Sacrifice of the Substitute Whom the Lord would send later in history. So, Abel's sacrifice, for example, was his deliberate declaration of his faith in the Coming Savior. Cain's, of course, was not, since Cain offered vegetables, not blood. This went on until the Lord gave the Law through Israel in order to further explain to anyone interested just how necessary the Sacrifice of the Messiah would be. In fact, the whole relationship of Man to God is described in the Law to be built around the Sacrifice of the Bronze Altar, which was a type of the Cross of Jesus Christ.

So, when you say that the Lord Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God and not primarily about His Sacrifice, you demonstrate a desperate ignorance of the Bible. The Kingdom of God is only accessible through Faith in Jesus Christ and acceptance of His Sacrifice in our behalf. Man lost the Kingdom that God gave to him in Genesis 1:28 by his rebellion. He has been an outcast from God's Kingdom since then, an active rebel condemned to die. The only way back into that Kingdom is through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Rejection of that Sacrifice only confirms the one who rejects it in their condemnation. That is what the whole Bible teaches.

The Kingdom of God is not political at all. In fact, it is entirely spiritual. Also, it is not yet here in full. It is only here in the form of a seed through all those who believe in the Truth. That was what the Lord Jesus meant in Luke 17:21. He said, "the Kingdom of God is among you (or in your midst)." All those who believe in Jesus Christ are subjects of that Kingdom. Their presence here on Earth is like an invading force on Earth. Satan knows that, that is why he persecutes believers and tries to kill them. In fact, if not for very important checks that the Lord has placed upon Satan's kingdom here, all believers would already be dead (and then all humans would be too to make sure that no human being would ever believe).

The Kingdom will gain ascendancy at the Second Advent when the Lord returns to destroy Satan's kingdom. Then it will physically rule over the Earth until the end of the 7000 years of human history, at which time a final rebellion against its authority will be allowed. After that rebellion has been crushed, and the universe has been destroyed, and the Last Judgment has been carried out, the Kingdom of God will finally come back in full to the New Earth that the Lord Jesus will create. The Trinity will then take back unrivaled rule over all Creation again at that time.

All of this is only possible because of the Cross that reconciles believing humanity to the King that humanity rebelled (and persists in rebellion) against. So, if the Lord Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God and taught it even exclusively, He was still teaching about the Cross. As you will see from the Mark reference that I offered above, His teaching was that because the Kingdom was so near to its return, sinners needed to repent and believe the Gospel (and what is the Gospel, if not that God had given a Savior to die in the place of the rebels?). Clearly, if they did not, the return of the Kingdom was going to be a most regrettable experience for them. At the Second Advent, everyone who will have taken the mark of the Antichrist to seal their allegiance to him will be burned to a crisp with fire and they will still be thrown into Torments to await the Final Judgment. After that Judgment, they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. This is what the Return of the Kingdom promises all rebels. Thus the "substitutionary atonement" that you "have doubt about" is everything to those who believe. It is the only escape anyone has from the Anger of the King Who is returning.

As I said before, my answers are given only because I consider them necessary for teachings in the Bible that people sometimes struggle with. You are not obliged to believe me, if you don't want to. My effort is not to dictate to you what you will believe. I will only tell the Truth, and those who have ears will hear it.

Ihedinobi3:

You may call it "discussion" and another would call it some other name, but if it is no more than a struggle to bend other people to your own way of thinking, then it is what it is, not whatever you wish to call it.

This is not the product of mere "research," I learned from and am still guided by a pastor-teacher as I train to become a fully prepared pastor-teacher myself. This is what I learned from him and what I confirmed is true by reading the Bible.

As for what your intention is, you may not be fully aware of it, but you have just contradicted yourself. Clearly, if the man (there was only one man reported by the disciples to be carrying out exorcisms in Mark 9 and Luke 9) did not believe in Jesus enough to follow Him, then your teaching here is that no one should be excluded from being recognized as a disciple if they are "calling Jesus Lord." It's hard to see what you are saying any other way.

The Bible only actually says that this man was said by the disciples to be casting out evil spirits in the Lord's Name. We can certainly infer that he was unknown to the disciples, but there is no reason at all to infer that he did not believe fully in the Lord Jesus. Many people were secret disciples of the Lord, including Nicodemus who was part of the Sanhedrin. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were also believers in the Lord Jesus, but of them only Mary is known to go around with Him sometimes. The Lord visited them at their home in Bethany for the most part. There was also Zacchaeus whom we only see being visited at his home by the Lord, but we do not see him going everywhere with the Lord. There were also the two men whom the Lord exorcised of evil spirits in the Gadarenes who begged Him to let them follow Him, but whom He sent back to evangelize their hometown. In other words, there is plenty reason to believe that this man whom John was speaking of was also a believer, but he wasn't one of the Twelve who went everywhere with the Lord.

We also know that only anyone who truly believed and to whom the Lord gave that special ability at that time could ever get evil spirits to leave a human body. Not even the Twelve could exorcise demons without the Lord's special provision of power (Mark 9:14-18,28-29). So, if the man was really doing what John reported, then he was most certainly a believer working under the Lord's Authority.

The lesson in that passage was that we were not to exclude others simply because we don't know them. If anyone is doing what the Lord calls us to do, they are brothers and sisters with us. The Lord calls us to believe in Him and grow in the Truth (that is, to learn everything that He teaches through the Bible and believe it) and help others to do the same (John 6:29; 15:1-8 ). If anyone is doing that, the fact that they are not part of our normal physical gathering does not mean that they are not believers too like us. So, for example, the fact that some other believer that I meet on here who may be very zealous about teaching the Bible is not a student of the Ichthys Ministry as I am ought not to mean for me that he is not a believer or a true servant of Christ. It would be wrong for me to reject such a person just because I don't know them. If what they teach is in agreement with the Bible, then I should extend a hand of fellowship to them as well. That is what our Lord was teaching here. He was not saying that if someone is not a believer, but if they can do some miraculous stuff, we are in any way obliged to consider them to be brethren too.

As for your claims about what the Lord Jesus taught, I see no reason that anyone should say what you said. It's quite preposterous. No one could possibly read Matthew to John and make such a statement, unless they just don't want to believe what they read.

20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Matthew 1:20-21 NASB

14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 NASB

20 And He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered and said, “The Christ of God.” 21 But He warned them and instructed them not to tell this to anyone, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.” 23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. 24 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. 25 For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
Luke 9:20-25 NASB

14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:14-18 NASB

All of the Gospels run to the Cross. In fact, all of the Bible runs to the Cross and then the epistles and Revelation and all the prophecies of the Old Testament open out from it. The Cross is the foundation of all Creation. You say that an understanding of it is vital to salvation but you doubt "substitutionary atonement," but that is a contradiction. You have said elsewhere that the Cross was something that the Lord Jesus accepted to protect His disciples from the Romans, but I cannot for the life of me see how that computes from anything anyone can actually read in the Bible.

In the Old Testament, beginning from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, the Lord God Himself has always taught that a payment of blood, that is, life, must be made in order for the sins of the human race to be expunged. The very first mention of this is in Genesis 3:15. Following upon this was the bloody sacrifice that the Lord carried out to give Adam and Eve coats of skin to wear as they left the Garden. The couple's acceptance of those coats was their acceptance of the Sacrifice of a Substitute in their behalf for their sin. That is, the Lord had commanded death if they ever sinned against Him. When they did, in order to spare their lives, He killed something else in their behalf. That something else was not really the animal from which He obtained the coats of skin for them. The animal was only a symbol. It was the Seed of the Woman Who would come much later in history that the animal represented. Theologically, that act of the Lord's in the Garden is called the protoevangelium or first gospel.

Every animal sacrifice after that that followed the Lord's Teaching to the couple in Eden was a deliberate identification of the offerer with the Sacrifice of the Substitute Whom the Lord would send later in history. So, Abel's sacrifice, for example, was his deliberate declaration of his faith in the Coming Savior. Cain's, of course, was not, since Cain offered vegetables, not blood. This went on until the Lord gave the Law through Israel in order to further explain to anyone interested just how necessary the Sacrifice of the Messiah would be. In fact, the whole relationship of Man to God is described in the Law to be built around the Sacrifice of the Bronze Altar, which was a type of the Cross of Jesus Christ.

So, when you say that the Lord Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God and not primarily about His Sacrifice, you demonstrate a desperate ignorance of the Bible. The Kingdom of God is only accessible through Faith in Jesus Christ and acceptance of His Sacrifice in our behalf. Man lost the Kingdom that God gave to him in Genesis 1:28 by his rebellion. He has been an outcast from God's Kingdom since then, an active rebel condemned to die. The only way back into that Kingdom is through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Rejection of that Sacrifice only confirms the one who rejects it in their condemnation. That is what the whole Bible teaches.

The Kingdom of God is not political at all. In fact, it is entirely spiritual. Also, it is not yet here in full. It is only here in the form of a seed through all those who believe in the Truth. That was what the Lord Jesus meant in Luke 17:21. He said, "the Kingdom of God is among you (or in your midst)." All those who believe in Jesus Christ are subjects of that Kingdom. Their presence here on Earth is like an invading force on Earth. Satan knows that, that is why he persecutes believers and tries to kill them. In fact, if not for very important checks that the Lord has placed upon Satan's kingdom here, all believers would already be dead (and then all humans would be too to make sure that no human being would ever believe).

The Kingdom will gain ascendancy at the Second Advent when the Lord returns to destroy Satan's kingdom. Then it will physically rule over the Earth until the end of the 7000 years of human history, at which time a final rebellion against its authority will be allowed. After that rebellion has been crushed, and the universe has been destroyed, and the Last Judgment has been carried out, the Kingdom of God will finally come back in full to the New Earth that the Lord Jesus will create. The Trinity will then take back unrivaled rule over all Creation again at that time.

All of this is only possible because of the Cross that reconciles believing humanity to the King that humanity rebelled (and persists in rebellion) against. So, if the Lord Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God and taught it even exclusively, He was still teaching about the Cross. As you will see from the Mark reference that I offered above, His teaching was that because the Kingdom was so near to its return, sinners needed to repent and believe the Gospel (and what is the Gospel, if not that God had given a Savior to die in the place of the rebels?). Clearly, if they did not, the return of the Kingdom was going to be a most regrettable experience for them. At the Second Advent, everyone who will have taken the mark of the Antichrist to seal their allegiance to him will be burned to a crisp with fire and they will still be thrown into Torments to await the Final Judgment. After that Judgment, they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. This is what the Return of the Kingdom promises all rebels. Thus the "substitutionary atonement" that you "have doubt about" is everything to those who believe. It is the only escape anyone has from the Anger of the King Who is returning.

As I said before, my answers are given only because I consider them necessary for teachings in the Bible that people sometimes struggle with. You are not obliged to believe me, if you don't want to. My effort is not to dictate to you what you will believe. I will only tell the Truth, and those who have ears will hear it.

ok sir, let's not push it further so you wouldn't think l am trying to bend you to my will.
For the records, l believe the cross is a major part of the gospel of the kingdom of God, l was only speaking against substitutionary antonement( preached mainly by Thomas Aquinas) and common in evangelical understanding of the cross today.

Daejoyoung:

ok sir, let's not push it further so you wouldn't think l am trying to bend you to my will.
For the records, l believe the cross is a major part of the gospel of the kingdom of God, l was only speaking against substitutionary antonement( preached mainly by Thomas Aquinas) and common in evangelical understanding of the cross today.

I have never in my life been an easy person for others to teach, not unless I trust the teacher. So, I have no problems with challenges and arguments when people don't want to take my word for the things I say. I don't demand that you simply believe me yourself. My problem with you is that you couch your interactions in language that is suggestive of strife. You do say that you are willing to learn, but then you end up producing challenges that completely ignore everything that you are told. That is something I have no time for. If you actually have objections to things I say - and that means that you actually read them and understand them - I would be very happy to hear them and attempt to solve them for you. But if you wish to teach me what to believe, that would be wasting each other's time, because I spent much of my life (all but the last couple of years) looking for the Truth, breaking things, throwing things away, before I found it. Now that I have, I will never give it up. So, if you wish to teach me something, I would encourage you not to waste your time. If you wish to query what I have learned and am still learning on the other hand, I would be happy to answer your questions.

As for what you say you believe, I'm afraid I don't believe you now any more than I did before. I don't mean that it is not true, I mean only that I cannot see how it can be. The Cross, after all, is the Gospel. If you believe even that it is a major part of the Gospel, then you would have no trouble at all with substitutionary atonement.

As for your claims about Thomas Aquinas, I know a little bit about him, but I don't quote him in any of my arguments. I have no difficulty at all discussing the whole Bible without reference to him at all and I will still demonstrate repeatedly that every part of the Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus died on the Cross for all of our sin so that we can be reconciled to God and preserved in His Kingdom eternally when He returns to His Creation to rule over it.

In other words, as long as you are persuaded that the Lord Jesus, God Who became Man to die for us, did not actually die on the Cross to save us from our sins, not only have we nothing at all to talk about, we also have absolutely no kinship at all. You see, every true Christian is defined by this belief. That is what a Christian is.

oaroloye:
[c]MISHIGAS!



THE SCRIPTURES OF THE BIBLE WERE MOSTLY WRITTEN BY HEBREWS, FOR THE UNDERSTANDING OF HEBREWS WITH THE EXCEPTIONS.

For instance, the Epistles of PAUL, which were written to deceive the Gentile Christians, according to the SHECHEM PROTOCOLS of GENESIS 34.

All of the Hebrew Christians, including the Disciples, felt that it was their Right and Duty to deceive the Gentiles, and cause them to fail.

That was the way the Ancients Thought- what we call "Cheating," today, was allowed, even expected in "Sporting" Competitions back then.

It was regarded as "Normal Behavior."

Lord Yeshua went against what they had been taught their whole lives. That is why not one of those braggarts could follow him to the Cross.

.     EXODUS 20:1-7.

AND God Spake
all these Words,
Saying,

2. "I (am) The LORD thy God,
Which have brought thee
out of The Land of Egypt,
out of The House of Bondage.

3. "Thou shalt have
no other gods before Me.

4. "Thou shalt not
make unto thee
any graven image,
or any likeness (of any thing)
that (is) in the Earth beneath,
or that (is) in the Water
under the Earth:
5. "Thou shalt not
bow down thyself to them,
nor serve them:
for I The LORD thy God
(am) a Jealous God,
visiting the iniquity
of the fathers
upon the third
and fourth (generation)
of them that Hate Me.
6. "And shewing Mercy
unto thousands of them
which Love Me,
and Keep My Commandments.

7. "Thou shalt not
take The Name
of The LORD thy God
in vain;
for The LORD will not
hold him guiltless
that taketh His Name
in vain."

YOUR GREAT-GRANDPARENTS TAUGHT YOUR GRANDPARENTS; YOUR GRANDPARENTS TAUGHT YOUR PARENTS; AND YOUR PARENTS TAUGHT YOU HOW TO BE RUDE AGAINST GOD, AND HOW TO OFFEND AGAINST HIS KINGDOM.

God was never The God of your Ancestors. You never grew up learning The Way of God, and never had any idea of what The TRUE Requirements of Worshipping and Serving God are.

. DEUTERONOMY 6:4-9.

4. Hear, O Israel:
The LORD our God
is one LORD:
5. And thou shalt love
The LORD thy God
with all thine Heart,
and with all thy Soul,
and with all thy might.
6. And these Words,
which I Command thee this day,
shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach Them
diligently unto thy children,
and shalt talk of Them
when thou sittest
in thine house,
and when thou walkest
by the way,
and when thou liest down,
and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind Them
for a sign upon thine hand,
and they shall be as frontlets
between thine eyes.
9. And thou shalt write Them
upon the posts of thy house,
and on thy gates.

EVERY HUMAN IS OBLIGED TO RECOGNIZE GOD, AND TO LOVE HIM TO THE MAXIMUM OF THEIR EVERY FACULTY.

You have no conception of what that is. All you know is what Deceitful Self-Justifiers taught you.

All they taught you is to serve them. Not God.



BOASTING OF THE EFFORT EXPENDED IN THE SERVICE OF EVIL DOES NOT MAKE IT GOOD.

. EXODUS 23:1-9.

"THOU shalt not
raise a False Report:
put not thine hand
with The Wicked
to be an Unrighteous Witness.
2. "Thou shalt not
follow a Multitude
to do Evil;
neither shalt thou
speak in a cause
to Decline after Many
to Wrest (Judgment):
3. "Neither shalt thou
countenance a poor man
in his cause.
4. "If thou meet
thine Enemy's ox
or his ass going astray,
thou shalt surely
bring it back to him again.
5. " If thou see
the ox or the ass
of him that hateth thee
lying under his burden,
and wouldest forbear
to help him,
thou shalt surely
help with him.
6. "Thou shalt not wrest
the judgment of thy poor
in his cause.
7. "Keep thee far
from a false matter;
and the Innocent
and Righteous
Slay thou not:
for I will not
Justify The Wicked.
8. "And thou shalt
take no Gift:
for the Gift
blindeth the Wise,
and perverteth the Words
of The Righteous.
9. "Thou shalt not
Oppress a Stranger:
for ye know
the heart of a Stranger,
seeing ye were Strangers
in the land of Egypt."

THE JEHOVAH'S WITLESSES ARE TRAINED TO COMMIT VIOLATIONS OF MOST, IF NOT ALL OF THESE COMMANDMENTS.

Just as the Hebrew Christians used them against the Gentile Christians (see: ACTS 15).

It is a cowardly way of operating- to play on people's ignorance.


.. LUKE 16:1-15.

AND he Said also
unto his Disciples,

"There was
a certain rich man,
which had a steward;
and the same
was accused unto him
that he had wasted his goods.
2. "And he called him,
and said unto him,

'HOW IS IT THAT
I HEAR THIS OF THEE?
GIVE AN ACCOUNT
OF THY STEWARDSHIP;
FOR THOU MAYEST BE
NO LONGER STEWARD.'

3. "Then the steward said
within himself,

'WHAT SHALL I DO?
FOR MY LORD
TAKETH AWAY FROM ME
THE STEWARDSHIP:
I CANNOT DIG,
TO BEG I AM ASHAMED.
4. 'I AM RESOLVED
WHAT TO DO,
THAT, WHEN I AM
PUT OUT OF THE STEWARDSHIP,
THEY MAY RECEIVE ME
INTO THEIR HOUSES.'

5. "So he called every one
of his lord's debtors unto him,
and said unto the first,

'HOW MUCH OWEST THOU
UNTO MY LORD?'

6. "And he said,

'AN HUNDRED MEASURES OF OIL.'

And he said unto him,

'TAKE THY BILL,
AND SIT DOWN QUICKLY,
AND WRITE FIFTY.'

7. "Then said he to another,

'AND HOW MUCH
OWEST THOU?'

And he said,

'AN HUNDRED MEASURES OF WHEAT.'

And he said unto him,

'TAKE THY BILL,
AND WRITE FOURSCORE.'

8. "And the lord commended
the Unjust Steward,
because he had done wisely:
for The Children of this World
are in their Generation
wiser than
The Children of Light.
9. "And I Say unto you,

'MAKE TO YOURSELVES FRIENDS
OF THE MAMMON
OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS;
THAT, WHEN YE FAIL,
THEY MAY RECIEVE YOU
INTO EVERLASTING HABITATIONS.'

10. "He that is Faithful
in that which is Least
is Faithful also in Much:
and he that is Unjust
in the Least
is Unjust also in Much.
11. "If therefore ye
have not been Faithful
in the Unrighteous Mammon,
who will commit to your trust
The True Riches?
12. "And if ye have not
been Faithful
in that which is
another man's,
who shall give you
that which is your own?
13. "No Servant can
serve two Masters:
for either he will
hate the one,
and love the other;
or else he will
hold to the one,
and despise the other.
Ye cannot serve God and Mammon."

14. And the Pharisees also,
who were Covetous,
heard all these things,
and they derided him.
15. And he Said unto them,

"Ye are they
which justify yourselves
before Men;
but God knoweth
your hearts:
for that which is
Highly Esteemed
amongst Men
is Abomination
in The Sight of God."

THE BASIS OF YOUR ASSOCIATION TOGETHER, IS THAT YOU ALL AGREE TO COMMIT AND JUSTIFY THE SAME SINS TOGETHER!



THERE CAN BE ONLY TWO CAUSES OF A CONTROVERSY: ONE IS RIGHT, AND THE OTHER IS WRONG- OR ELSE BOTH ARE WRONG!

. LEVITICUS 19:16-18.

16. "Thou shalt not
go up and down
as a Talebearer
among thy people:
neither shalt thou
stand against
the Blood of thy Neighbour:
I am The LORD.
17. "Thou shalt not
Hate thy Brother
in thine heart:
thou shalt in any wise
rebuke thy Neighbour,
and not suffer Sin upon him.
18. "Thou shalt not Avenge,
nor bear any Grudge
against the Children
of thy people,
but thou shalt
Love thy Neighbour
as thyself:
I am The LORD."

IT IS THE DUTY OF BRETHREN TO REBUKE ANY BRETHREN WHO ARE WRONG.

. MATTHEW 18:15-20.

15. "Moreover if thy Brother
shall trespass against thee,
go and tell him his fault
between thee and him alone:
if he shall hear thee,
thou hast gained thy Brother.
16. "But if he will not hear thee,
then take with thee one or two more,

'THAT IN THE MOUTH
OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES
EVERY WORD
MAY BE ESTABLISHED.'

17. "And if he shall
neglect to hear them,
tell it unto the Church:
but if he neglect
to hear the Church,
let him be unto thee
as an Heathen man and a Publican.
18. "Verily I Say unto you,

'WHATSOEVER YE SHALL
BIND ON EARTH
SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN:
AND WHATSOEVER YE SHALL
LOOSE ON EARTH
SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN.'

19. "Again I Say unto you,

'THAT IF TWO OF YOU
SHALL AGREE ON EARTH
AS TOUCHING ANY THING
THAT THEY SHALL ASK,
IT SHALL BE DONE FOR THEM
OF MY FATHER
WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.'

20. "For where two or three
are gathered together
in my Name,
there am I
in the midst of them."

WHEN SOMEONE WHOM LORD YESHUA DIED FOR IS MESSING UP, IT IS THE DUTY OF THE RIGHTEOUS BRETHREN TO INTERVENE, AND TELL THEM EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG!

No one has the Right to Stand Against their Blood- saying nothing, while SATAN carries them away!



WHY SHOULD ONE WHO IS RIGHT YIELD TO ONE WHO IS WRONG?

Is that what you do in your Cabal? If someone contradicts the Teachings of your Ruling Coven, do you yield to them, or do you not ostracise them, and expel them from your midst, and tell all your Brethren, even their own family, not to talk to them any more?

Who has not heard of the JEHOVAH'S WITLESSES SHUNNING practice?

When CHARLES TROMBLEY took his daughter to a Charismatic Church to be prayed for, because Jehovah's Witless Elders could do nothing, and she was miraculously Healed of her club foot, HE WAS TOLD THAT THE MIRACLE WAS "THE WORK OF THE DEVIL," AND SUMMARILY EXPELLED!

[See: KICKED OUT OF THE KINGDOM, by Charles Trombley.]

All the "Good Works" of Service he had been told would be recorded forever in The Kingdom of God WERE SUMMARILY ERASED.

That Promise is a LIE.

That is what you fear that they will do to you yourself, should you deviate from the party-line!

. DEUTERONOMY 25:1-4.

IF there be
a controversy between men,
and they come unto judgment,
that the judges
may judge them;
then they shall justify the Righteous,
and condemn the Wicked.
2. And it shall be,
if the Wicked man
be worthy to be beaten,
that the judge shall cause him
to lie down,
and to be beaten
before his face,
according to his fault,
by a certain number.
3. Forty stripes
he may give him,
and not exceed:
lest, if he should exceed,
and beat him above these
with many stripes,
then thy Brother
should seem vile unto thee.
4. Thou shalt not
muzzle the ox
when he treadeth out
(the corn).

All Humans Exist on Eight Dynamic Levels in Forty Levels of Awareness:

. b] THE EIGHT DYNAMICS.[/b]

1. SELF; 2. FAMILY;
3. GROUPS; 4. ALL MANKIND;
5. ALL LIVING THINGS;
6. THE MEST (Matter, Energy, Space, Time - i.e. PHYSICAL) UNIVERSE;
7. SPIRITS; 8. GOD.

[See: THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THOUGHT, by L. Ron Hubbard.]

. THE FORTY AWARENESS LEVELS.

40. SERENITY
30. POSTULATES
22. GAMES
20. ACTION
8.0 EXHILARATION
6.0 AESTHETICS
4.0 ENTHUSIASM
3.5 CHEERFULNESS
3.0 CONSERVATISM
2.5 BOREDOM
2.0 OVERT HOSTILITY
1.8 PAIN
1.5 ANGER
1.4 HATE
1.2 NO SYMPATHY
1.1 COVERT HOSTILITY
1.0 FEAR
0.9 SYMPATHY
0.5 GRIEF
0.1 APATHY
0.0 BODY DEATH.

[See: SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL: The Prediction of Human Behaviour, by L. Ron Hubbard.]

. THE AWARENESS LEVELS REQUIRED TO COMMAND THE DYNAMICS.

8. SELF; 12. GROUPS;
15. ALL MANKIND;
22. MEST UNIVERSE; 32. SPIRITS;
40. GOD.

[See: THE DYNAMICS AND TONE SCALE, by L. Ron Hubbard.]

YOU PEOPLE ARE IN CONTROVERSY AGAINST THE TRUE BELIEVERS, AND YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGED, AND STRIPES HAVE BEEN LAID UPON EACH OF YOU.

. LUKE 12:35-48.

34. "For where
your Treasure is,
there will your heart
be also.
35. "Let your loins
be girded about,
and your lights burning;
36. "And ye yourselves
like unto men
that wait for their lord,
when he will return
from the wedding;
that when he cometh
and knocketh,
they may open unto him immediately.
37. "Blessed are
those servants,
whom the lord
when he cometh
shall find watching:
verily I Say unto you,

'THAT HE SHALL
GIRD HIMSELF,
AND MAKE THEM
SIT DOWN TO MEAT,
AND WILL COME FORTH
AND SERVE THEM.'

38. "And if he shall come
in the Second Watch,
or come in the Third Watch,
and find them so,
blessed are those servants.
39. "And this know,

'THAT IF THE GOODMAN
OF THE HOUSE HAD KNOWN
WHAT HOUR
THE THIEF WOULD COME
HE WOULD HAVE WATCHED,
AND NOT SUFFERED
HIS HOUSE TO BE
BROKEN THROUGH.'

40. "Be ye therefore ready also:
for The Son of Man cometh
at an hour when ye think not."

41. Then Peter said unto him,

"Lord, Speakest thou this Parable unto us,
or even to all?"

42. And the Lord Said,

"Who then is that faithful
and wise steward,
whom his lord
shall make ruler
over his household,
to give them
their portion of meat
in due season?
43. "Blessed is that Servant,
whom his lord when he cometh
shall find so doing.
44. Of a Truth I Say unto you,

'THAT HE WILL
MAKE HIM RULER
OVER ALL
THAT HE HATH.'

45. "But and if that servant
say in his heart

,'MY LORD DELAYETH
HIS COMING;'

and shall begin to beat
the menservants and maidens,
and to eat and drink,
and to be drunken;
46. "The lord of that servant
will come in a day
when he looketh not for him,
and at an hour
when he is not aware,
and will cut him in sunder,
and will appoint him
his portion
with the unbelievers.
47. "And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did
according to his will,
shall be beaten
with many stripes.
48. "But he that knew not,
and did commit things
worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten
with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever
much is given,
of him shall be
much required:
and to whom men
have committed much,
of him they will
ask the more."

WHEN WE COMMIT SIN, THE DEVIL IS ENABLED TO REMOVE LEVELS OF OUR SPIRITUAL ENERGY RESERVE, PROPORTIONAL TO OUR SIN.

That is why you are hateful, angry, covertly and overtly hostile, and cowardly.

That is why you and your "Church" have no Spiritual Power.[/c]

[To be Continued.]

I've told you

.

Ihedinobi3:

I have never in my life been an easy person for others to teach, not unless I trust the teacher. So, I have no problems with challenges and arguments when people don't want to take my word for the things I say. I don't demand that you simply believe me yourself. My problem with you is that you couch your interactions in language that is suggestive of strife. You do say that you are willing to learn, but then you end up producing challenges that completely ignore everything that you are told. That is something I have no time for. If you actually have objections to things I say - and that means that you actually read them and understand them - I would be very happy to hear them and attempt to solve them for you. But if you wish to teach me what to believe, that would be wasting each other's time, because I spent much of my life (all but the last couple of years) looking for the Truth, breaking things, throwing things away, before I found it. Now that I have, I will never give it up. So, if you wish to teach me something, I would encourage you not to waste your time. If you wish to query what I have learned and am still learning on the other hand, I would be happy to answer your questions.

As for what you say you believe, I'm afraid I don't believe you now any more than I did before. I don't mean that it is not true, I mean only that I cannot see how it can be. The Cross, after all, is the Gospel. If you believe even that it is a major part of the Gospel, then you would have no trouble at all with substitutionary atonement.

As for your claims about Thomas Aquinas, I know a little bit about him, but I don't quote him in any of my arguments. I have no difficulty at all discussing the whole Bible without reference to him at all and I will still demonstrate repeatedly that every part of the Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus died on the Cross for all of our sin so that we can be reconciled to God and preserved in His Kingdom eternally when He returns to His Creation to rule over it.

In other words, as long as you are persuaded that the Lord Jesus, God Who became Man to die for us, did not actually die on the Cross to save us from our sins, not only have we nothing at all to talk about, we also have absolutely no kinship at all. You see, every true Christian is defined by this belief. That is what a Christian is.

You said.....My problem with you is that you couch your interactions in language that is suggestive of strife. You do say that you are willing to learn, but then you end up producing challenges that completely ignore everything that you are told. That is something I have no time for. If you actually have objections to things I say - and that means that you actually read them and understand them - I would be very happy to hear them and attempt to solve them for you.

lol, it is not my intention to ignore challenges, l have queries for the things you say, but you always interprete it as me trying to bend you to my will. Also when l don't ask questions and l present my point of view, l am presenting them so they can be challenged not because l think l have found the whole truth and you must bend. But like l said if you don't want to challenge your beliefs anymore, then that is fine.

You said....But if you wish to teach me what to believe, that would be wasting each other's time, because I spent much of my life (all but the last couple of years) looking for the Truth, breaking things, throwing things away, before I found it. Now that I have, I will never give it up. So, if you wish to teach me something, I would encourage you not to waste your time. If you wish to query what I have learned and am still learning on the other hand, I would be happy to answer your questions.

Now this is interesting, so you found the truth and you are settled, then that is great. Maybe all l have to do when discussing these things with you, is just ask questions and not present my side of things. l also think l have found truth, but l am willing to challenge it everytime in order to possibly refine it and learn more truth.

You said....As for what you say you believe, I'm afraid I don't believe you now any more than I did before. I don't mean that it is not true, I mean only that I cannot see how it can be. The Cross, after all, is the Gospel. If you believe even that it is a major part of the Gospel, then you would have no trouble at all with substitutionary atonement.

Of course the cross is the gospel. Substitutionary antonement( a view that God was looking for a blood sacrifice to forgive our sins, and so he put jesus in our place and if we just believe in that we become righteous).This is an interpretation of the cross by church fathers like Thomas Aquinas. l have problems believing in this particular interpretation as the major purpose of the cross, if you want to know why l have problems with this view l am willing to tell you. Also if you want to know my views from scripture and my interpretation, l am willing to put it out to be challenged, but if you are satisfied with this belief in substitutionary atonement and would not entertain other views, then of course there is no problem, l don't think it affects your salvation in the end.

You said....As for your claims about Thomas Aquinas, I know a little bit about him, but I don't quote him in any of my arguments. I have no difficulty at all discussing the whole Bible without reference to him at all and I will still demonstrate repeatedly that every part of the Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus died on the Cross for all of our sin so that we can be reconciled to God and preserved in His Kingdom eternally when He returns to His Creation to rule over it.

Of course l believe that about the cross and l know you can demonstrate that, the only problem discussing with you is that when l challenge some views( like say substitutionary atonement), you interpret it as me trying to bend you to my will. The bible does not have one solidified interpretation, of course it is not a single book, it is a library of books and authors. We must be willing to listen to and learn from one another, not necessarily to agree but to be well grounded, perhaps considering things we may not have considered before. Also you misunderstand the argument, the arguement is not whether or not jesus died on the cross to reconcile us to God, the arguement is against him being a substitute as a blood sacrifice, such that believing in him as a substitute on the cross for our punishment automatically makes us righteous or saved, that is where l have problems.

You said.....ln other words, as long as you are persuaded that the Lord Jesus, God Who became Man to die for us, did not actually die on the Cross to save us from our sins, not only have we nothing at all to talk about, we also have absolutely no kinship at all. You see, every true Christian is defined by this belief. That is what a Christian is.

Can you show me where l said jesus did not die to save us from our sins. You don't know my view on the cross and you are not interested because you think l am trying to convince you and make you reject your views, so of course you would say this.
l agree every true Christian is defined by belief on the cross and the principles of the kingdom of God on earth but not substitutionary atonement.

Daejoyoung:


You said.....My problem with you is that you couch your interactions in language that is suggestive of strife. You do say that you are willing to learn, but then you end up producing challenges that completely ignore everything that you are told. That is something I have no time for. If you actually have objections to things I say - and that means that you actually read them and understand them - I would be very happy to hear them and attempt to solve them for you.

lol, it is not my intention to ignore challenges, l have queries for the things you say, but you always interprete it as me trying to bend you to my will. Also when l don't ask questions and l present my point of view, l am presenting them so they can be challenged not because l think l have found the whole truth and you must bend. But like l said if you don't want to challenge your beliefs anymore, then that is fine.

I didn't mean at all that you ignore challenges. I said that you ignore what you are told in answer to your challenges. I don't like to waste my time trying to make anyone believe anything. That is not only an impossible task, but it is also not our job description as pastor-teachers. My job is merely to teach the Bible. If anyone is willing to believe what they hear, then they will believe it. If they are not, then they will not.

There is a difference, although it is not often easy for some people to appreciate, between offering a reasonable challenge and being argumentative and heretical. No one knows the Truth until they are told. So, many times when people come up to a pastor-teacher, they already have baggage. If such a person is actually willing to learn the Truth, then they are going to present their baggage with a readiness to have it measured against the Bible. I have been on Nairaland long enough to know that the vast majority of people who show up here have absolutely no interest in learning anything at all. They just enjoy arguing, so they continue to argue even well after there is nothing new to discover in the opposing position. It is also the same everywhere else. This is how many heretics and blasphemers are produced. They are people always looking for something to oppose and prove to themselves and others that they are something special.

So, if you actually just want to examine your own position and your own beliefs (and I am like that as a person too), then you will have to prove it by actually listening to the answers that are given to your arguments. If you do not demonstrate that willingness, then it only means that you have no wish to learn at all and only revel in strife.

As for challenging my beliefs, not only did I say that I have no problems with that, but that was partly why I came back to Nairaland after the Lord took me to a pastor-teacher to learn the Truth. Here I have been challenged and tested as to the integrity of what I have come to believe and I have rejoiced in proving it true against all the opposition that has been given to it. I have grown in understanding that position from engaging other people here. So, I have no problems with being challenged. I am confident in what I have learned, so I am happy to defend it. But my job is not to spend my whole life trying to satisfy others with my convictions. If anyone is unwilling to believe the Truth, then it makes no difference what I say to them. For such people, I have found myself repeating myself ad infinitum because they keep recycling challenges that have been answered in every conceivable way. That is a waste of time.

Daejoyoung:
You said....But if you wish to teach me what to believe, that would be wasting each other's time, because I spent much of my life (all but the last couple of years) looking for the Truth, breaking things, throwing things away, before I found it. Now that I have, I will never give it up. So, if you wish to teach me something, I would encourage you not to waste your time. If you wish to query what I have learned and am still learning on the other hand, I would be happy to answer your questions.

Now this is interesting, so you found the truth and you are settled, then that is great. Maybe all l have to do when discussing these things with you, is just ask questions and not present my side of things. l also think l have found truth, but l am willing to challenge it everytime in order to possibly refine it and learn more truth.

The Bible is an incredibly intricate universe of Truth. I have continued to learn things in it through defending what I teach here and discussing with my comrades at Ichthys, and I will continue to learn things that will continue to surprise me. But what I have been learning does not violate the basic principles of biblical truth that I have been taught. Rather, they have been "fleshing out" the Truth-structure in my heart, strengthening it and making it more complex. That is how these things work. For that reason, when someone is persuaded that they have found the Truth, just like I have, and what they have found is fundamentally different than what I have, I know that they and I are only going to quarrel. There is no point in engaging such people.

If, on the other hand, one is still examining what they believe to be sure that it is true, then there is reason to have a conversation with such a person, because perhaps I could help them build that Truth-structure that is stable and reliable, so that they can go on to learn the deeper things that the Bible has to teach. In your words immediately above, what I see is that you have a different structure in your heart than I do, and you are both willing to examine it and not. That is, when you say that you are willing to challenge it every time, what I hear is that you are still testing it to know if it is really the Truth. But when you go on to say that you are looking to refine it and learn more truth, what I hear is that you are sure that it is true and there is no further testing necessary. These two things add up to the same thing that I have consistently found in heretics and blasphemers here and elsewhere: they make such people very argumentative and unyielding in discussion. They try to find fault with every position that opposes them in order to prove to themselves that they are right, and they also try to capture other people through their unrelenting arguments, so that with the increase in the number of people who agree with them, they also feel like they are really right. There is no possibility of getting through to such people. Once an argument with them begins, it never ends, not until they are persuaded that they won.

That is why I find it hard to believe your claims about yourself.

Daejoyoung:
You said....As for what you say you believe, I'm afraid I don't believe you now any more than I did before. I don't mean that it is not true, I mean only that I cannot see how it can be. The Cross, after all, is the Gospel. If you believe even that it is a major part of the Gospel, then you would have no trouble at all with substitutionary atonement.

Of course the cross is the gospel. Substitutionary antonement( a view that God was looking for a blood sacrifice to forgive our sins, and so he put jesus in our place and if we just believe in that we become righteous).This is an interpretation of the cross by church fathers like Thomas Aquinas. l have problems believing in this particular interpretation as the major purpose of the cross, if you want to know why l have problems with this view l am willing to tell you. Also if you want to know my views from scripture and my interpretation, l am willing to put it out to be challenged, but if you are satisfied with this belief in substitutionary atonement and would not entertain other views, then of course there is no problem, l don't think it affects your salvation in the end.

Of course I neither believe your claim that substitutionary atonement is an interpretation of the church fathers' nor agree with you that it is false. I already demonstrated why I don't. Of course I will not entertain other views as if they had any sort of legitimacy, because it seems too obvious to me from the Scriptures that they are completely false. That does not mean that I am disinclined to discussing them with you if you are willing to have them properly examined. That is why I have said to you that there is no possibility of altering my position, as you require that there must be in order to discuss with you (refer to "l am willing to put it out to be challenged, but if you are satisfied with this belief in substitutionary atonement and would not entertain other views, then of course there is no problem" in your statement). I will never believe that the Cross was not entirely and wholly the substitution of Jesus Christ for us. Nor is it necessary for me to believe that it was not in order for me to examine any other position in a fair-minded fashion. I arrived at the belief I have by searching too, so I have seen alternate views and I have seen the Bible. That I have an unshakable conviction here does not at all mean that I will not be fair in my judgment.

To be clear, the umpire need not be my own convictions. In fact, it should not be my own convictions. Every view and every belief ought to be tested against what the Bible says. I have no problem having mine tested that way by you, if you wish to do so. And if you are willing to have yours tested that way, that would be splendid. In the end, if a point of view or a belief contradicts the whole sense of the Bible, that is, the unified testimony of the Bible in some way, something is quite wrong with it.

As for what you believe, it seems to me that you are wholly and entirely in error about all things. I can't see what you are right about in everything that you've said thus far, including this idea that it does not matter to your salvation whether you believe that the Lord Jesus died for our sins on the Cross or not.

Again, I don't have a problem answering any questions or challenges to what I believe. I will only not do it when the challenges and questions become frivolous and meaningless.

Daejoyoung:
You said....As for your claims about Thomas Aquinas, I know a little bit about him, but I don't quote him in any of my arguments. I have no difficulty at all discussing the whole Bible without reference to him at all and I will still demonstrate repeatedly that every part of the Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus died on the Cross for all of our sin so that we can be reconciled to God and preserved in His Kingdom eternally when He returns to His Creation to rule over it.

Of course l believe that about the cross and l know you can demonstrate that, the only problem discussing with you is that when l challenge some views( like say substitutionary atonement), you interpret it as me trying to bend you to my will. The bible does not have one solidified interpretation, of course it is not a single book, it is a library of books and authors. We must be willing to listen to and learn from one another, not necessarily to agree but to be well grounded, perhaps considering things we may not have considered before. Also you misunderstand the argument, the arguement is not whether or not jesus died on the cross to reconcile us to God, the arguement is against him being a substitute as a blood sacrifice, such that believing in him as a substitute on the cross for our punishment automatically makes us righteous or saved, that is where l have problems.

It is always a problem when someone says something like "the bible does not have one solidified interpretation." It is usually the explanation for all the problems that are evident in a theological position. Generally, the idea is that the Truth cannot be one thing, rather, it can be different things depending on the person speaking. That is precisely the spirit of antichrist (1 John 2:18-28; 4:1-6). The Truth is only One. There are no multiple Truths. If you do not believe the Truth that is what God actually says, then, of course, you are in rebellion against Him. That is precisely the reason that there is a spiritual division in the human race:

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and A man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 10:34-39 NASB

51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
Luke 12:51-53 NASB

The unity of believers is in the Truth, and there is only One Truth, only one interpretation of the Bible that is correct. That is the amazing thing about the Book: there are 66 of them with so many authors, and yet they all agree. That is what the Inspiration of God Himself does:

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Peter 1:20-21 NASB

So, again, I can neither believe you nor agree with you in this.

As for your argument, I don't really see how it works. If the Lord Jesus died for us, how can that not be understood as the fact that He died in our place? If your incredulity is how just believing that He died for us makes us righteous, that's another thing altogether. I can explain that, even if you may not believe my explanation. To begin, this is a very large question, since it actually is the story of the whole Bible. In short, when Satan rebelled against God, he campaigned among the angels to get them to join him. The lie that he told them to get those who joined him to do so was that God's Mercy and Justice oppose each other, so that God cannot forgive sin or punish the sinner. So, what the Lord did through Jesus Christ is to demonstrate that He will both punish sin and forgive the sinner. If we believe that, we are essentially saying that God is true and Satan is not. That is righteousness because we have accepted the true testimony about God, rather than joining Satan in his assassination of God's Character. God's love for us is such that He gave the Only Thing of its Kind that He had in order to save us: the Lord Jesus Christ, God and Man, to die in our just place. If the Lord Jesus had not paid with His Life for our sin, then we would have certainly gone to the Second Death with no hope. That is the Cross. That is why our faith is righteousness in the eyes of God.

Daejoyoung:
You said.....ln other words, as long as you are persuaded that the Lord Jesus, God Who became Man to die for us, did not actually die on the Cross to save us from our sins, not only have we nothing at all to talk about, we also have absolutely no kinship at all. You see, every true Christian is defined by this belief. That is what a Christian is.

Can you show me where l said jesus did not die to save us from our sins. You don't know my view on the cross and you are not interested because you think l am trying to convince you and make you reject your views, so of course you would say this.
l agree every true Christian is defined by belief on the cross and the principles of the kingdom of God on earth but not substitutionary atonement.

I think that my comments above have answered this. If the Lord Jesus did not die as our substitute in order to atone for us, then you are saying that He did not die to save us from our sins. That is what I see is your view on the Cross. I have no idea how you can both say this and yet say that I don't know your views on the Cross. What else could your views be if they are not this thing that you have actually said?

As for what you claim to agree with, I don't believe that we are saying the same thing at all. Christians are those who believe that the Lord Jesus died on the Cross as an atonement for their sins so that they can be reconciled to God. That is what makes anyone a Christian.

Hmmmmmmmmm,

Come and see so called Christians talking as if Jesus spoke directly to each one of them, yet they're expecting others to accept whatever they say without making research to ascertain if their teachings are working out what is BENEFICIAL!

Jesus sent out JEWS to teach the world about God(JEHOVAH) himself and how God's holy spirit works, but everyone now claims Jesus spoke PRIVATELY with them, and funny enough each person is contradicting the other!

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the one and only organization Jesus is using now, but my people say "NO" and this group has successfully gathered over 8,500,000 people from different races under one umbrella as one big happy family of peace loving worshippers.

Whereas other religions claiming Christians have failed woefully to unite their followers even inside the same Church!

OP asked questions, all he needed is individual answers and where he could learn more after the little hint each commentator dropped, but each person have turn himself into Pastor know-all having no specific place/group to direct the OP to go for further learning! 1Corinthians 4:7

Maximus69:
Hmmmmmmmmm,

Come and see so called Christians talking as if Jesus spoke directly to each one of them, yet they're expecting others to accept whatever they say without making research to ascertain if their teachings are working out what is BENEFICIAL!

Jesus sent out JEWS to teach the world about God(JEHOVAH) himself and how God's holy spirit works, but everyone now claims Jesus spoke PRIVATELY with them, and funny enough each person is contradicting the other!

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the one and only organization Jesus is using now, but my people say "NO" and this group has successfully gathered over 8,500,000 people from different races under one umbrella as one big happy family of peace loving worshippers.

Whereas other religions claiming Christians have failed woefully to unite their followers even inside the same Church!

OP asked questions, all he needed is individual answers and where he could learn more after the little hint each commentator dropped, but each person have turn himself into Pastor know-all having no specific place/group to direct the OP to go for further learning! 1Corinthians 4:7

PRIDE and PRESUMPTUOUSNESS is killing them!

None of them is humble enough to succumb to the resolve of the other. Each person just want to be on his own, yet they love singing and dancing in the midst of a crowd who have no rules that's binding on them all! Matthew 7:21-23

Let them attempt the questions the OP asked without mentioning who taught them, if such a person won't ask "which religion should i join to be fully competent and completely equipped like you?" {2Timothy 4:16-17, Hebrew 13:7} perhaps they think everyone will be as credulous and presumptuous as they are!

TATIME:


PRIDE and PRESUMPTUOUSNESS is killing them!

None of them is humble enough to succumb to the resolve of the other. Each person just want to be on his own, yet they love singing and dancing in the midst of a crowd who have no rules that's binding on them all! Matthew 7:21-23

Let them attempt the questions the OP asked without mentioning who taught them, if such a person won't ask "which religion should i join to be fully competent and completely equipped like you?" {2Timothy 4:16-17, Hebrew 13:7} perhaps they think everyone will be as credulous and presumptuous as they are!

You've said it all Sir!

lhedinobi3 when l say l want to refine the truth l think l have found, it doesn't mean that if l find out that it can't be refined and it is false, l wouldn't drop it, l think you have misunderstood me. lt is not different from what you said when you said you found the truth and you no longer want to add or remove from it, infact you are more convinced of your truth than l am, and as a pastor-teacher it seems you can only preach to so called heretics not try to understand what they are saying, yet this is what you are accusing me of, interesting.

The point is you are the one using the word heretic and blasphemer for people, l never used it for you or anyone. So you are the one arrogant and fixed about your views and l respect your decision to have it your way.

As for the cross, you don't understand my position on the cross and how l understand your substitutionary atonement, and you seem not to be willing to listen probably because you are a pastor-teacher, and since l am not, then l alone should be willing to learn from you and not you from me.

As for the bible, again l fear to state my view on the bible lest you call me a heretic trying to convince you, even though l do not accuse you of such when you describe your views in lengthy paragraphs.

Anyway Merry Christmas to you.

Daejoyoung:
lhedinobi3 when l say l want to refine the truth l think l have found, it doesn't mean that if l find out that it can't be refined and it is false, l wouldn't drop it, l think you have misunderstood me. lt is not different from what you said when you said you found the truth and you no longer want to add or remove from it, infact you are more convinced of your truth than l am, and as a pastor-teacher it seems you can only preach to so called heretics not try to understand what they are saying, yet this is what you are accusing me of, interesting.

The point is you are the one using the word heretic and blasphemer for people, l never used it for you or anyone. So you are the one arrogant and fixed about your views and l respect your decision to have it your way.

As for the cross, you don't understand my position on the cross and how l understand your substitutionary atonement, and you seem not to be willing to listen probably because you are a pastor-teacher, and since l am not, then l alone should be willing to learn from you and not you from me.

As for the bible, again l fear to state my view on the bible lest you call me a heretic trying to convince you, even though l do not accuse you of such when you describe your views in lengthy paragraphs.

Anyway Merry Christmas to you.

Pastor
Teacher
Atonement
Cross
Christmas

All these teachings are FAKE that's why it CAN NOT unite people because they are NOT from Jesus! Matthew 7:16-18

Jesus' teachings will surely unite all it's adherents as ONE! John 17:20-23

So no matter how hard you try to pacify FAKE Christians, they will not accept or agree with you unless you're ready to WORSHIP them, neither will those WORSHIPING the same founder of their various Churches be found together as ONE in FAITH! 1Corinthians 14:33 compared to Galatians 6:16

Jesus said "THEY WILL SCATTER!" Luke 11:23

Excellent example is Shadeyinka and MurttleyLaff, they will say so many things against Jehovah's Witnesses all because of their TRINITY deity but are they united in faith?

NO!

Remember Jesus' statement, "They will scatter!"

Maximus69:


Pastor
Teacher
Atonement
Cross
Christmas

All these teachings are FAKE that's why it CAN NOT unite people because they are NOT from Jesus! Matthew 7:16-18

Jesus' teachings will surely unite all it's adherents as ONE! John 17:20-23

So no matter how hard you try to pacify FAKE Christians, they will not accept or agree with you unless you're ready to WORSHIP them, neither will those WORSHIPING the same founder of their various Churches be found together as ONE in FAITH! 1Corinthians 14:33 compared to Galatians 6:16

Jesus said "THEY WILL SCATTER!" Luke 11:23

Excellent example is Shadeyinka and MurttleyLaff, they will say so many things against Jehovah's Witnesses all because of their TRINITY deity but are they united in faith?

NO!

Remember Jesus' statement, "They will scatter!"

Your paranoid has simply caused an apparent fear of shadeyinka that you can't post a word without mentioning the name.

I tell you again: fear not!

shadeyinka:

Your paranoid has simply caused an apparent fear of shadeyinka that you can't post a word without mentioning the name.

I tell you again: fear not!

Why won't i fear when i see normal humans claiming Christians (followers of Christ) arguing vehemently, furiously and hopelessly with each other (MuttleyLaff and Shadeyinka) yet they're still saying they belong to the same Jesus?

Well i think if Jesus is here right now he must be ashamed of the both of you for teaching you contradicting things instead of making you think alike, for his teaching to be glorified as a WONDERFUL COUNSELOR! Isaiah 9:6

That's why i keep saying this your own Jesus (who kept appearing to you) can't be the same Jesus that united over 8,500,000 people from different races on this same planet as one big happy family of peace loving worshippers under one umbrella called Jehovah's Witnesses!

Daejoyoung:
lhedinobi3 when l say l want to refine the truth l think l have found, it doesn't mean that if l find out that it can't be refined and it is false, l wouldn't drop it, l think you have misunderstood me. lt is not different from what you said when you said you found the truth and you no longer want to add or remove from it, infact you are more convinced of your truth than l am, and as a pastor-teacher it seems you can only preach to so called heretics not try to understand what they are saying, yet this is what you are accusing me of, interesting.

The point is you are the one using the word heretic and blasphemer for people, l never used it for you or anyone. So you are the one arrogant and fixed about your views and l respect your decision to have it your way.

As for the cross, you don't understand my position on the cross and how l understand your substitutionary atonement, and you seem not to be willing to listen probably because you are a pastor-teacher, and since l am not, then l alone should be willing to learn from you and not you from me.

As for the bible, again l fear to state my view on the bible lest you call me a heretic trying to convince you, even though l do not accuse you of such when you describe your views in lengthy paragraphs.

Anyway Merry Christmas to you.

I think that you just made my point. In so far as you are like me, there is little chance of your changing in the things that you believe. However, this conversation has gone on because you have continued to answer me in a way that suggests some possibility of a real exchange rather than yet another shouting match on Nairaland. What I have been doing is alerting you to what my interest in a conversation like this is. As I said, I don't enter them because I have any doubts about what I believe or because I want to discover the errors in my belief system. I have the Bible and my pastor-teacher for that. So, if you want to discuss things with the Bible as an umpire, that's fine by me. If you don't, then there is no possibility of any discussion.

Next, I have not yet called you a heretic or blasphemer. I have warned you instead that you are behaving like them. Believe me, if I was convinced that you were either, that is what I would actually call you. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt before labeling them here.

Next, if you consider it arrogant that I am refusing to yield my position, that is more telling about you than about me. As I said, I offered an answer to a difficulty that you raised. I often leave things at that. I only go on to discuss my answer further if there seems to be a reasonable occasion for me to do so. That is what I do on Nairaland. If anyone knows the Truth, then they ought to hold on to it and not play fast and loose with it.

As for your position on the Cross, I think that that is already evident. But if you don't think that your comments so far are not representative of your position on it, then you should explain further. You should also note that, as I said before, I have seen other things that you have said about the Cross in other discussions than this one.

I have also seen what you think of the Bible in a comment that you made today. So, I already have a thought on you, but I am not yet making a judgment call, because I don't know yet whether you are here to sell a dangerous lie or if you are here to examine things that you believe.

Finally, have a merry Christmas too.

MISHIGAS!

Maximus69:
Hmmmmmmmmm,
Come and see so called Christians talking as if Jesus spoke directly to each one of them, yet they're expecting others to accept whatever they say without making research to ascertain if their teachings are working out what is BENEFICIAL!

IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT YOU ARE A CHILD OF THE DEVIL, WITH NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN PROMOTING PEACE BETWEEN JUNIOR BELIEVERS, WHO HAVE ERRED FROM THE TRUE PATH, BY FALLING FOR THE DECEPTION THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE SHEPHERDS IN ONE SHEEPFOLD, AND EVEN ALTERNATIVE SHEEPFOLDS!

I am the only one here who authenticates my every Teaching with the Relevant Word of God.

The first of THE TEN TALENTS OF POWER is TOTAL RECALL. Only fool would reject this great Teaching. Sin is only possible with AMNESIA.

A Sinner must partially or completely forget what GOD has Said against their erroneous course of action, and why they fear and respect God, and obey His Word.

I know that you do not know The Word of God, nor Love God, therefore I quote Scriptures comprehensively. No one has ever refuted my Scriptural References before.

They may reject them, and say that they are not relevant, but have never even attempted to show how.

God either talks to Christians, or else they imagine It. The simple test for whether a Voice we here is of God or not is:

(1) IS IT CONSISTENT WITH THE LAW OF GOD BY MOSES?

God cannot Command us to commit a Sin.

Lord Yeshua justified Breaking The Sabbath- a Capital Sin- when keeping The Sabbath Day impeded a Life and Health-giving Blessing.

If The Sabbath Day were to be the cause of Pain and Suffering, It should no longer be a Blessing, but a Curse, seemed to be his reasoning- which came from GOD: THE FATHER.

(2) IS IT CONSISTENT WITH THE TEACHINGS OF LORD YESHUA?

The simplest Teaching of Lord Yeshua is that no man can be told that Yeshua is HaMishiach, or "Christ."

If one cannot obey THAT, what COULD they obey?

If they believed that, then they would obey him.

This may be the fastest way to identify a False Christian.

(3) HAS THE HEARER CHOSEN LIFE?

God Promised that those who CHOOSE LIFE will hear His Voice.

Except one has committed to OBEY THE WORD OF GOD- no matter what- one will FAIL as a Christian.

. PROVERBS 6:16-19.

16 These six things
doth The LORD Hate:
yea, seven are
an Abomination unto Him:
17. A Proud Look,
a Lying Tongue,
and Hands that Shed
Innocent Blood,
18. An Heart that deviseth
Wicked Imaginations,
Feet that be Swift
in Running to Mischief,
19. A False Witness that
Speaketh Lies,
and he that Soweth Discord
among Brethren.

SO, YOU KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT TALK TO ANY OF YOU LAYMEN IN YOUR ORGANIZATION.

You should know that your leaders who claim to hear the Voice of GOD, or of LORD YESHUA, or of THE HOLY GHOST are all LYING to you.

Their continuously changing Doctrines should be enough indication.

. JOHN 10:26-28.

26. "But ye believe not,
because ye are not of my Sheep,
as I Said unto you.
27. "My Sheep hear my Voice,
and I know them,
and they follow me:
28. "And I give unto them Eternal Life;
and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man
pluck them out of my hand."

THE TEN TALENTS OF POWER ARE HOW LORD YESHUA GIVES ETERNAL LIFE TO HIS SHEEP!

. JOHN 8:51-53.

51. "Verily, verily,
I Say unto you,

'IF A MAN
KEEP MY SAYING,
HE SHALL NEVER
SEE DEATH.' "

52. Then said the Jews
unto him,

"Now we know
that thou hast a Devil.
Abraham is dead,
and the Prophets;
and thou sayest,

'IF A MAN
KEEP MY SAYING,
HE SHALL NEVER
TASTE OF DEATH.'

53. "Art thou greater
than our father Abraham,
which is dead?
and the Prophets are dead:
whom makest thou thyself?"

AS A TRUE CHRISTIAN KEEPS THE SAYINGS OF LORD YESHUA, GOD AND LORD YESHUA RESIDE WITH THEM, THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST.

.  JOHN 14:15-27.

15. "If ye love me,
keep my Commandments.
16. "And I will pray the Father,
and he shall give you
another Comforter,
that he may abide with you
for ever;
17. "Even the Spirit of Truth;
Whom the World
cannot receive,
because It seeth Him not,
neither knoweth Him:
but ye know Him;
for He dwelleth with you,
and shall be in you.
18. "I will not
leave you Comfortless:
I will come to you.
19. "Yet a little while,
and the World seeth me
no more;
but ye see me:
because I live,
ye shall live also.
20. "At that Day
ye shall know
that I am in my Father,
and ye in me,
and I in you.
21. "He that hath
my Commandments,
and keepeth them,
he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me
shall be loved of my Father,
and I will love him,
and will manifest myself
to him."

22. Judas saith unto him,
not Iscariot,

"Lord, how is it
that thou wilt
manifest thyself unto us,
and not unto the World?"

23. Jesus answered
and Said unto him,

"If a man love me,
he will keep my Words,
and my Father will love him,
and we will come unto him,
and make our abode with him.
24. "He that loveth me not
keepeth not my sayings:
and The Word which ye hear
is not mine,
but The Father's
Which sent me."
25. "These things
have I spoken unto you,
being (yet) present with you.
26. "But The Comforter,
(Which is) The Holy Ghost,
Whom The Father
will send in my Name,
He shall Teach you
all Things,
and bring to
your remembrance
all things whatsoever
I have said unto you.
27. "Peace I leave with you,
my Peace I give unto you:
not as the World giveth
give I unto you.
Let not your heart be troubled,
neither let it be afraid."

THEY DO NOT COME TO THE CHRISTIAN TO LOITER VAINLY, BUT FOR THE PURPOSE OF FIXING WHATEVER SPIRITUAL, MENTAL, BODILY, OR MATERIAL DEFICIENCY THE MIGHT HAVE, THAT MIGHT IMPEDE THEIR FULFILLING MORE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD- ENFORCING HIS WILL IN THE EARTH.

Therefore, the "TALENTS" become activated, one-by-one.

. THE TEN TALENTS OF POWER. (Matt. 25.)

1. TOTAL RECALL.
2. EXTRASENSORY PERCEPTION.
3. TELEKINESIS.
4. TELEPORTATION.
5. TRANSLATION.
6-10. EVERLASTING LIFE.

Everlasting Life is needed to support Eternal Life- the Knowledge that one has always existed, and will always exist. This Consciousness consumes a terrible amount of LIFE ENERGY- which becomes INEXHAUSTIBLE after the Fifth Talent: TRANSLATION.

This is the most advance Spiritual Doctrine of any Christian Church, and any other Religion or Spiritual System.

No one else has anything on this level.

I don't know why you people all gawk like idiots, when you should be embracing this Teaching that solves all Problems, and laugh and accuse, as if something were being taken from you!

Have you considered the consequences of ignoring my Teaching?

The consequences are DEATH.

The consequences of applying my Teaching is added Responsibility from God. When He sees that you can now work, He will put you to work.

You will become extremely busy.

Maximus69:

Jesus sent out JEWS to teach the world about God(JEHOVAH) himself and how God's holy spirit works, but everyone now claims Jesus spoke PRIVATELY with them, and funny enough each person is contradicting the other!

THAT IS A TOTAL LIE.

. MATTHEW 23:1-15.

THEN Spake Jesus
to the multitude,
and to his Disciples,

2. Saying,

"The scribes
and the Pharisees
sit in Moses' seat:
3. "All therefore whatsoever
they bid you observe,
that observe and do;
but do not ye
after their works:
for they say, and do not.
4. "For they bind
heavy burdens
and grievous to be borne,
and lay them
on men's shoulders;
but they themselves
will not move them
with one of their fingers.
5. "But all their works
they do for to be seen of men:
they make broad their phylacteries,
and enlarge the borders
of their garments,
6. "And love
the Uppermost Rooms
at feasts,
and the Chief Seats
in the Synagogues,
7. "And greetings
in the markets,
and to be called of men,
'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8. "But be not ye called 'Rabbi:'
for one is your Master,
even Christ;
and all ye are Brethren.
9. "And call no man
your father
upon the Earth:
for one is your Father,
Which is in Heaven.
10. "Neither be ye
called masters:
for one is your Master,
even Christ.
11. "But he that is
greatest among you
shall be your servant.
12. "And whosoever shall
exalt himself
shall be abased;
and he that shall
humble himself
shall be exalted.
13. "But woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites!
for ye shut up
The Kingdom of Heaven
against men:
for ye neither go in yourselves,
neither suffer ye them
that are entering to go in.
14. "Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites!
For ye devour widows' houses,
and for a pretence
make long prayer:
therefore ye shall receive
The Greater Damnation.
15. "Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites!
for ye compass Sea and Land
to make one proselyte,
and when he is made,
ye make him
twofold more
The Child of Hell
than yourselves."

(1) ALL LORD YESHUA AUTHORIZED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH THE WORLD WAS HIS TEACHINGS TO THEM.

He never authorized anyone to Teach people what God was, or what his Special Office was.

THE OLD TESTAMENT in general, and THE LAW OF MOSES in particular, tell us everything we need to know about God. That is why the Disciples banned teaching The Law of Moses to the Gentile Christians.

That was the surest way to destroy them.

No one can contradict ME.

MY Teachings stand above all others.

Contradiction is good: it let's us know who is, and who is not, a follower of Lord Yeshua.

Only fools and idiots can say that "CHRISTIANITY IS SO CONFUSING! WE CANNOT KNOW WHICH CHURCH IS OF GOD!

Maximus69:

You're quoting the scriptures and i'm also quoting the scriptures as well. It's only God that can say "this is the person that got it right"

GOD WOULD NOT BE AN INTELLIGENT BEING, IF HE COULD NOT COMMUNICATE IN TERMS THAT HIS FOLLOWERS COULD UNDERSTAND.

Any inability to understand God is always a failure on the Human End- never on God's End.

. JOB 28:28.

28. "And unto Man He Said,

'BEHOLD,
THE FEAR OF THE LORD,
THAT IS WISDOM;
AND TO DEPART FROM EVIL,
IS UNDERSTANDING.' "

God has already told us who is Right and who is Wrong. Whoever says that they don't know how God judges is a liar.

God Said:

. EXODUS 21:15-17.

15. "And he that smiteth
his father,
or his mother,
shall be surely
put to death.

16. "And he that stealeth
a man,
and selleth him,
or if he be found in his hand,
he shall surely be put to death.

17. "And he that curseth
his father, or his mother,
shall surely be put to death."

ALL OF THE CHURCHES THAT PERPETRATED AND SUPPORTED THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE ARE WRONG!

How big does your brain have to be to run THAT computation!

The ROMAN CATHOLIC "Church;"
The ANGLICAN "Church;"
The PRESBYTERIAN "Church;"
The BAPTIST "Church,"

and others I have not bothered to research yet, all perpetrated and supported Slavery.

[See: THE RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION OF THE NEGRO IN THE UNITED STATES, by Reverend Charles Colcock Jones (1843).]

God Said:

. EXODUS 20:13.

13. "Thou shalt not
Kill."

THE BIGGEST OF THE OYINBO "CHRISTIAN" CHURCHES WERE BASED ON MURDEROUS RACIST WARFARE.

The Roman Catholic Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Dutch Church, the Baptist Church we're all based on "killing for their governments."

Which made it "all right."

They had more or less the same Bibles as they do today. They didn't have special editions, or "new translations," that said:

"Thou shalt not kill- except when your king or president says so...!"

You cannot say that you do not know the True Churches from the False Churches.

You know full well that the WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY is a gang of murderers.

SICKLE-CELL ANAEMIA BECAME PREVALENT AS A SURVIVAL MECHANISM THAT INHIBITED DEATH BY MALARIA.

The sufferers lived long enough to breed, but not much longer.

In breeding, they passed that genetic defect on that enabled their offspring to survive the disease that prevented the Oyinbos from Colonizing West Africa like they did South Africa.

They surely hated us for that.

There has been very serious discussion amongst the Oyinbos, that people who suffer from genetic defects like Sickle Cell anaemia could best benefit the Human Race, by dying without breeding.

There was serious discussion about withholding resources from nation's with too many "useless eaters." Of sterilizing them without their knowledge or consent.

[See: ECOSCIENCE, by John P. Holdren, Paul R. Ehrlich, and Ann H. Ehrlich (1977).]

Denying necessary Medical Treatment AND Divine Healing to Africans suffering from Sickle Cell anaemia is one way of getting rid of those of us who fall into their trap.

. DEUTERONOMY 22:8.

8. When thou buildest
a new house,
then thou shalt make
a battlement for thy roof,
that thou bring not blood
upon thine house,
if any man fall from thence.

IF YOU BRING BLOOD UPON YOUR HOUSE FOR NOT PROTECTING PEOPLE ON THE ROOF FROM FALLING OFF- ARE YOU NOT BRINGING BLOOD UPON YOUR CHURCH BY INVENTING FAKE COMMANDMENTS THAT KILL PEOPLE?

You are NOT peaceful people.

You are KILLERS, supporting an Evil Oyinbo EUGENICS agenda!

(2) LORD YESHUA FORBADE HIS DISCIPLES FROM BEING RABBIS AND MASTERS ON THE GROUNDS THAT HE WAS THE ONLY TEACHER OF HIS CHURCH.

The Holy Ghost Taught me to see in The Bible and elsewhere, what other miss.

My Spiritual Awareness operates on a higher level than anyone else locally or in the Western English-speaking World.

I believe that this is the bare minimum of what Kingdom of God Awareness is.

I know that I can operate much higher than this. But if I did so, it would initiate Judgment on everyone else.

(3) LORD YESHUA EXPLICITLY PROMISED THAT ALL OF HIS DISCIPLES WOULD BE TAUGHT BY GOD, AND WOULD HEAR HIS VOICE.

Those contradicting each other are easily divided up into two classes:

(a) Those who hear Lord Yeshua.

(b) Those who don't.

If anyone heard from Lord Yeshua, they would have contacted me a long time ago. There is no one like that on this Forum.

All are failures and dunces.

Maximus69:

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the one and only organization Jesus is using now, but my people say "NO" and this group has successfully gathered over 8,500,000 people from different races under one umbrella as one big happy family of peace loving worshippers.

LORD YESHUA CANNOT HAVE EVER BEEN USING YOUR ORGANIZATION, FOR REASONS I HAVE ALREADY STATED.

. MATTHEW 7:12-29.

12. "Therefore all things
whatsoever ye would
that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them:
for this is
The Law and The Prophets.
13. "Enter ye in
at The Strait Gate:
for wide is the Gate,
and broad is the way,
that leadeth to Destruction,
and many there be
which go in thereat:
14. "Because strait is the Gate,
and narrow is The Way,
which leadeth unto Life,
and few there be that find it.
15. "Beware of False Prophets,
which come to you
in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly they are
ravening wolves.
16. "Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Do men gather
grapes of thorns,
or figs of thistles?
17. "Even so every Good Tree
bringeth forth Good Fruit;
but a Corrupt Tree
bringeth forth Evil Fruit.
18. "A Good Tree cannot
bring forth Evil Fruit,
neither can a Corrupt Tree
bring forth Good Fruit.
19. "Every tree that
bringeth not forth Good Fruit
is hewn down,
and cast into the Fire.
20 Wherefore by their Fruits
ye shall know them.
21. "Not every one
that saith unto me,
'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
The Kingdom of Heaven;
but He that doeth
The Will of my Father
Which is in Heaven.
22 Many will say to me
in That Day,

'LORD, LORD,
HAVE WE NOT
PROPHESIED IN THY NAME?
AND IN THY NAME
HAVE CAST OUT DEVILS?
AND IN THY NAME
DONE MANY
WONDERFUL WORKS?'

23. "And then will I
profess unto them,

'I NEVER KNEW YOU:
DEPART FROM ME,
YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.'

24. "Therefore whosoever heareth
These Sayings of mine,
and doeth Them,
I will liken him unto
a Wise Man,
which built his house
upon a rock:
25. "And the rain descended,
and the floods came,
and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house;
and it fell not:
for it was founded
upon a rock.
26 . "And every one
that heareth
These Sayings of mine,
and doeth them not,
shall be likened unto
a Foolish Man,
which built his house
upon the sand:
27. "And the rain descended,
and the floods came,
and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house;
and it fell:
and great was the fall of it."
28. And it came to pass,
when Jesus had
ended these Sayings,
the people were astonished
at his Doctrine:
29. For He taught them
as one having authority,
and not as the scribes.

YOU ARE NOT ON THE NARROW WAY THAT LEADS TO LIFE; YOU DO NOT KEEP LORD YESHUA'S SAYINGS, BUT DELIBERATELY BREAK THEM.

Maximus69:

Whereas other religions claiming Christians have failed woefully to unite their followers even inside the same Church!

THAT IS ANOTHER COMPLETE LIE.

Every Christian Church is united- like passengers in a 747 flying into a volcano together.

If you sit them down, and reason with them, step-by-step, explaining why their Doctrines are wrong, at some point, they will stop talking rationally, if at all.

Every Organized Church is based on an agreement to deliberately break certain Commandments of Lord Yeshua.

I would be interested to know how many Blacks were in your Organization before 1940.

Whites did not regard Blacks as equal Human Beings before they needed us to fight and die for them in World War II.

Our people were NOT welcome in THEIR Churches before then. They were denied places in the Victory Celebrations.

I know how I was treated in England during the 1960s. I do not believe that Oyinbos can ever change.

Americans are the worst: they murdered the inhabitants of America to make room for themselves.

They are proud of their forefathers for do doing.

Maximus69:

OP asked questions, all he needed is individual answers and where he could learn more after the little hint each commentator dropped, but each person have turn himself into Pastor know-all having no specific place/group to direct the OP to go for further learning! 1Corinthians 4:7

THE CORRECT WAY TO LEARN ABOUT GOD IS THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST.

This necessitates THE TEN TALENTS OF POWER. You would have no problem understanding this, if you had done your BAR MITZVAH, and LEARNED GOD through your Teenage years.

You are not supposed to be a dunce at age 20. But usually, it is too late by then for a Gentile to learn the True Way of God, and learn TOTAL RECALL.

[To be Continued.]

Ihedinobi3:

I think that you just made my point. In so far as you are like me, there is little chance of your changing in the things that you believe. However, this conversation has gone on because you have continued to answer me in a way that suggests some possibility of a real exchange rather than yet another shouting match on Nairaland. What I have been doing is alerting you to what my interest in a conversation like this is. As I said, I don't enter them because I have any doubts about what I believe or because I want to discover the errors in my belief system. I have the Bible and my pastor-teacher for that. So, if you want to discuss things with the Bible as an umpire, that's fine by me. If you don't, then there is no possibility of any discussion.

Next, I have not yet called you a heretic or blasphemer. I have warned you instead that you are behaving like them. Believe me, if I was convinced that you were either, that is what I would actually call you. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt before labeling them here.

Next, if you consider it arrogant that I am refusing to yield my position, that is more telling about you than about me. As I said, I offered an answer to a difficulty that you raised. I often leave things at that. I only go on to discuss my answer further if there seems to be a reasonable occasion for me to do so. That is what I do on Nairaland. If anyone knows the Truth, then they ought to hold on to it and not play fast and loose with it.

As for your position on the Cross, I think that that is already evident. But if you don't think that your comments so far are not representative of your position on it, then you should explain further. You should also note that, as I said before, I have seen other things that you have said about the Cross in other discussions than this one.

I have also seen what you think of the Bible in a comment that you made today. So, I already have a thought on you, but I am not yet making a judgment call, because I don't know yet whether you are here to sell a dangerous lie or if you are here to examine things that you believe.

Finally, have a merry Christmas too.

you said...<I think that you just made my point. In so far as you are like me, there is little chance of your changing in the things that you believe. However, this conversation has gone on because you have continued to answer me in a way that suggests some possibility of a real exchange rather than yet another shouting match on Nairaland. What I have been doing is alerting you to what my interest in a conversation like this is. As I said, I don't enter them because I have any doubts about what I believe or because I want to discover the errors in my belief system. I have the Bible and my pastor-teacher for that. So, if you want to discuss things with the Bible as an umpire, that's fine by me. If you don't, then there is no possibility of any discussion.>

ok then so we are not here to change each other's views only explain our side of things. However if you say something that is reasonable and also convincing to me, l would learn from you, l am not limited to just my bible and pastor-teachers. l can learn new things from anyone after weighing their arguement on a scale usually for logic, consistency, and scripture in that order.

you said...<Next, I have not yet called you a heretic or blasphemer. I have warned you instead that you are behaving like them. Believe me, if I was convinced that you were either, that is what I would actually call you. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt before labeling them here.>

Fair enough, but heretic is in the eye of the beholder, your heretic is another man's saint.

you said....<Next, if you consider it arrogant that I am refusing to yield my position, that is more telling about you than about me. As I said, I offered an answer to a difficulty that you raised. I often leave things at that. I only go on to discuss my answer further if there seems to be a reasonable occasion for me to do so. That is what I do on Nairaland. If anyone knows the Truth, then they ought to hold on to it and not play fast and loose with it.>

ok then, it's great that you know the truth already, all l am doing is examining this truth, not necessarily for you but for the audience and myself.

You said < As for your position on the Cross, I think that that is already evident. But if you don't think that your comments so far are not representative of your position on it, then you should explain further. You should also note that, as I said before, I have seen other things that you have said about the Cross in other discussions than this one>.

ok my position on the cross is that jesus died for two things as explained by himself in the gospels:
1) Mark 10v45, the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
2) And he took the cup and gave thanks and said drink, this is my blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins.

1)Jesus ransom was for the new Israel, the remnant of his nation Israel that would listen to his teachings, live by it and survive. Caiphas stated in the gospel of john, that it is better for one man to die for the nation than for the entire nation to be destroyed, this high priest unknowingly was making a true prophecy here.
The fear was that the Romans would come to destroy the Jewish nation after the triumphant entry and the cleansing of the temple. The problem was that if the Romans take action, many would die in lsrael for the sake of jesus and both he and his followers would be wiped out. Part of the fear of jesus at the garden of gethsemane seem to be that his disciples would be taken as well, and so he told them to even buy two swords in the gospel of luke.
To show that this fear was real, in the gospel of john( john 18v8-9), he came forward to present himself saying if you seek me let this men go.

Also notice that in Mark 10v45, jesus says true glory is not like the world think it is, but it is that of service. So in that world, the heroes were the Caesars, so when the disciples saw jesus naked on the cross, presenting himself to be taken and to die in their place, so as not to lose any of them( john 18v8-9), it changed their perception of what it means to be hero. So the cross is foolishness to the world, because a hero is not supposed to be on the cross, but to us, it is the power and wisdom of God says saint paul.

2) His blood for the forgiveness of sins is to show the fulfillment of the passover celebration. lt represents freedom from exile to all held bound in slavery due to sins of mankind towards one another. lt all goes back to Abraham, when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that command didn't make any sense, because isaac was the promised one through whom the world be blessed, and Abraham knew that God's promises are irrevocable, but Abraham obeyed because he reasoned that God is able to raise him from the dead. This is why Abraham became righteous in God's sight because he did works of faith still in hope of that promise, so also God was showing that even if lsrael is destroyed(all her firstborn sons as in Egypt)and go on exile, God is able to bring the nation back to life again to fulfill the promises. Even if jesus, the promised one and son of God gets killed in obedience to God, God is able to raise him from the dead. So death is not a barrier to the promise of a better world through the seed of Abraham, even death of the messaiah because God would also give us power over death because we would come back alive.

Also a passover was sacrificed as a sign but the passover lamb itself is just to bring this to remembrance just like Abel sacrificed an animal to the lord, but Abel( the first blameless man)became a sacrifice himself for obeying God, he paid the price for his faith, so that his blood still cries out to God for vengeance just like all the righteous blood shed on the earth due to oppression and sins or wickedness of their killers, while jesus cries out for forgiveness in contrast because of his love asking God for reconciliation of the world( even the worst of the world) to God. lt is in this way that the sacrifice of jesus moves God on his throne because it is in tune with the will of God, for while it is true that God wants to punish these evil doers like cain and the Romans, he wants to punish them for correction not their total destruction because God loves the world.
The Israelites also sacrificed a lamb to avert the angel of death, the lamb saved them from becoming extinct as a nation, so the lamb was a hero, the killing of the lamb was to remind themselves that a lamb took their place and they continued to do this for the forgiveness of sins(meaning release from exile or slavery).The lamb was the sacrifice that saved the nation from being extinct to slavery. The lamb represents jesus who saves his people from slavery due to sin, but the death of a lamb only averted slavery, exile and death and in practice doesn't take away sin by itself.
But with jesus, first obeying his teachings by faith through his spirit takes away sins, secondly his blood crying out to God for forgiveness of sins saves the world because he died loving even his enemies to the end. This is not substitutionary atonement, this is a demonstration of the teaching that says love your enemies which we are called to live by even unto the death.

So in summary, we are to take up our own cross and follow jesus not believing that jesus was a human sacrifice to appease God in our place, but rather that he not only showed us an example but that his blood still speaks unto this day.
The authors in the new testament only stress on antonement to show the jews that they no longer needed the passover lamb which marked freedom from slavery, but that that passover lamb that saved the nation then from dying at the hands of pharaoh and the angel of death is actually jesus the hero that dies as a ransom to the Romans to eventually set up the era of the kingdom of God through his disciples(the new Israel) who would carry out the promises of Abraham and the hope of the world by spreading the legacy of jesus(his spirit) to the world.

Ihedinobi3 as to your last point which was about the bible, my answer to that is that the bible is not the word of God, rather it contains the word, or wasn't the bible written by men?
Finally l am here to learn, not for any agenda.

Maximus69:


Why won't i fear when i see normal humans claiming Christians (followers of Christ) arguing vehemently, furiously and hopelessly with each other (MuttleyLaff and Shadeyinka) yet they're still saying they belong to the same Jesus?

Well i think if Jesus is here right now he must be ashamed of the both of you for teaching you contradicting things instead of making you think alike, for his teaching to be glorified as a WONDERFUL COUNSELOR! Isaiah 9:6

That's why i keep saying this your own Jesus (who kept appearing to you) can't be the same Jesus that united over 8,500,000 people from different races on this same planet as one big happy family of peace loving worshippers under one umbrella called Jehovah's Witnesses!

I can understand why you live in fear as for God's true children fear isn't our portion
2Tim 1:7:
"For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

It still amazes me when I see the depth of your hypnosis and brainwashing: it's at the depth of demonic possession by your organisation. I pray your eyes will one day be opened before your time is up.

The fact that you know me as a normal Christian is OK! I'll rather you be a "little Christ" too than a bigot of an earthly hellbound organisation leading 8million souls into perdition!

Mar 9:42:
"And whoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

[Continued:]

TATIME:


PRIDE and PRESUMPTUOUSNESS is killing them!

None of them is humble enough to succumb to the resolve of the other. Each person just want to be on his own, yet they love singing and dancing in the midst of a crowd who have no rules that's binding on them all! Matthew 7:21-23

I DISAGREE WITH EVERY ORGANIZED CHURCH- BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHURCH WITH NO RULES!

The people who taught you that "INIQUITY" means "LAWLESSNESS" have lied to you.

That is not what "INIQUITY" means.

. NUMBERS 15:27-31.

27. "And if any man Sin
through Ignorance,
then he shall bring
a She Goat of the first year
for a Sin Offering.
28. "And the Priest
shall make an Atonement
for the Soul
that Sinneth Ignorantly,
when he Sinneth
by Ignorance
before The LORD,
to make an Atonement
for him,
and it shall be
forgiven him.
29. " Ye shall have one Law
for him that Sinneth Ignorantly
(both for) him
that is born
among the Children of Israel,
and for the Stranger
that sojourneth
among them.
30. "But the Soul
that doeth
(ought) presumptuously,
(whether he be)
born in the land,
or a Stranger,
the same reproacheth
The LORD;
and that Soul
shall be cut off
from among his people.
31. "Because he hath
despised The Word
of The LORD,
and hath broken
His Commandment,
that Soul
shall utterly be cut off;
his Iniquity
(shall be) upon him."

"INIQUITIES" ARE DELIBERATELY COMMITTED SINS.

. NUMBERS 15:27-31. (New World Translation)

27. " 'And if any soul
should sin by mistake,
then he must present
a female goat in it's first year
for a sin offering.
28. And the priest
must make atonement
for the soul
who made a mistake
by a sin unintentionally
before Jehovah,
so as to make atonement for it,
and it must be forgiven him.
29. As to the native
among the sons of Israel
and the alien resident
who is residing as an alien
in their midst,
there should prove
to be a law for YOU
as respects doing
something unintentionally.
30 " 'But the soul
that does something deliberately,
whether he is a native
or an alien resident,
he speaking abusively of Jehovah,
in that case that soul
must be cut off
from among his people.
31 Because it is Jehovah's word
that he has despised
and his commandment
that he has broken,
that soul should be cut off
without fail.
His own error is upon him ' "

YOUR LEADERS LIED TO YOU; "INIQUITY" DOES NOT MEAN "LAWLESSNESS!"

You are a victim of mere PROPAGANDA.

Your leaders tell you how evil the enemy they want you to fight is- lying and exaggerating the differences between you and them.

TATIME:

Let them attempt the questions the OP asked without mentioning who taught them, if such a person won't ask "which religion should i join to be fully competent and completely equipped like you?" {2Timothy 4:16-17, Hebrew 13:7} perhaps they think everyone will be as credulous and presumptuous as they are!

. GENESIS 9:20-27.

20. And Noah began (to be)
an husbandman,
and he planted a vineyard:
21. And he drank of the wine,
and was drunken;
and he was uncovered
within his tent.
22. And Ham,
the father of Canaan
saw the unclothedness
of his father,
and told
his two brethren without.
23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment,
and laid (it) upon
both their shoulders,
and went backward,
and covered the unclothedness
of their father;
and their faces
(were) backward,
and they saw not
their father's unclothedness.
24. And Noah awoke
from his wine,
and knew what
his younger son
had done unto him.
25. And he said,

"Cursed be Canaan;
a servant of servants
shall he be unto his brethren."

26. And he said,

"Blessed be the LORD God of Shem;
and Canaan shall be his servant.
27. "God shall enlarge Japheth,
and he shall dwell
in the tents of Shem;
and Canaan shall be his servant."

. LEVITICUS 24:10-16.

10. And the son
of an Israelitish woman,
whose father was
an Egyptian,
went out among
the Children of Israel:
and this son of
the Israelitish woman
and a Man of Israel
strove together in the camp;
11. And the Israelitish
woman's son blasphemed
The Name of The LORD,
and cursed.
And they brought him
unto Moses:
[and his mother's name
was Shelomith,
the daughter of Dibri,
of the tribe of Dan:]
12. And they put him in ward,
that the Mind of The LORD
might be shewed them.
13. And The LORD Spake
unto Moses,
Saying,

14. "Bring forth him
that hath cursed
without the camp;
and let all that heard him
lay their hands upon his head,
and let all the Congregation
stone him.
15. "And thou shalt speak
unto the Children of Israel,
saying,

'WHOSOEVER CURSETH
HIS GOD
SHALL BEAR HIS SIN.'

16. "And he that blasphemeth
The Name of The LORD,
he shall surely be
put to Death,
and all the Congregation
shall certainly stone him:
as well the Stranger
as he that is Born in the land,
when he blasphemeth
The Name of The LORD,
shall be put to death."

I ALREADY ANSWERED THE STUPID QUESTIONS OF THE ORIGINAL POST- BUT YOU ALL IGNORED THEM, BECAUSE NONE OF YOU WANT THE CORRECT ANSWERS!

To understand Hebrew Israelite Scriptures, you need to THINK LIKE A HEBREW ISRAELITE. (*Duh!*)

You are supposed to know all of the Scriptures I use in my answers- but I know that that is impossible.

THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES OF GENESIS 9 AND LEVITICUS 24 ILLUSTRATE WHAT WE ARE DOING HERE.

There is nothing funny about It, at all!

God comes from outside our Universe, and does not move in any direction.

He deploys copies of Himself, to move around. Humans have that ability.

That is what the EGUNGUN MASQUERADE is.

No one worth their Salt ever goes somewhere with their Physical Body.

Instead, they create a TELEKINETIC IMAGE wherever they want to go. That is an ANGEL (Messenger).

[See: THE FIRE FROM WITHIN, by Carlos Castaneda (1985).]

GOD'S MOTIVES ARE NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS TO KNOW: YOU ARE AN ENEMY AND A CRIMINAL: YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SUCH KNOWLEDGE!

As for what would or would not have happened to Adam, if they had not eaten the fruit, that is idle speculation that belittles the importance of what did happen, and the inappropriateness of your response to it.

Your duty is to repent, serve God for real, and learn from Him directly, instead of treating Him as a source of Trivia.

. MATTHEW 7:1-6.

"JUDGE not,
that ye be not judged.
2. "For with what judgment
ye judge,
ye shall be judged:
and with what measure
ye mete,
it shall be measured
to you again.
3. "And why beholdest thou
the mote
that is in thy brother's eye,
but consideredst not
the beam
that is in thine own eye?
4. "Or how wilt thou say
to thy brother,

'LET ME PULL OUT
THE MOTE
OUT OF THINE EYE;'

And behold, a beam
(is) in thine own eye.
5. "Thou Hypocrite,
first cast out the beam
out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou
see clearly to cast out
the mote out of
thy brother's eye.
6. "Give not that which is Holy
unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls
before swine,
lest they trample them
under their feet,
and turn again,
and rend you."

AS FOR EXPECTING PEOPLE TO "SUCCUMB TO THE OTHER, THAT IS JUST THE STUPIDEST THING I EVER HEARD!

No one has any Right to speculate on the Nature of God, and His Only Begotten Son.

. MATTHEW 12:22-37.

22. Then was
brought unto him
one possessed
with a Devil,
blind, and dumb:
and he healed him,
insomuch that
the blind and dumb
both spake and saw.
23. And all the people
were amazed,
and said,

"Is not this
The Son of David?"

24. But when
the Pharisees heard it,
they said,

"This fellow doth not
cast out devils,
but by Beelzebub
the Prince of the Devils."

25. And Jesus knew their thoughts,
and Said unto them,

"Every kingdom
divided against itself
is brought to desolation;
and every city or house
divided against itself
shall not stand:
26. "And if Satan
cast out Satan,
he is divided
against himself;
how shall then
his Kingdom stand?
27. "And if I by Beelzebub
cast out Devils,
by whom do your children
cast them out?
therefore they shall be
your judges.
28. "But if I cast out Devils
by the Spirit of God,
then The Kingdom of God
is come unto you.
29. "Or else how can one
enter into
a Strong Man's House,
and spoil his Goods,
except he first
bind the Strong Man?
And then he will
spoil his House.
30. "He that is not with me
is against me;
and he that
gathereth not with me
scattereth abroad.
31. "Wherefore I Say
unto you,

'ALL MANNER
OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY
SHALL BE FORGIVEN
UNTO MEN:
BUT THE BLASPHEMY
AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST
SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN UNTO MEN.'

32. "And whosoever
speaketh a word
against The Son of Man,
it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh
against The Holy Ghost,
it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this World,
neither in the World to come.
33. "Either make the tree good,
and his fruit good;
or else make the tree corrupt,
and his fruit corrupt:
for the tree is known
by his fruit.
34. "O generation of Vipers,
how can ye,
being evil,
speak good things?
For out of the abundance
of the heart
the mouth speaketh.
35. "A Good man
out of the Good Treasure
of the heart
bringeth forth Good Things:
and an Evil man
out of the Evil Treasure
bringeth forth Evil Things.
36. "But I Say unto you,

'THAT EVERY IDLE WORD
THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK,
THEY SHALL GIVE
ACCOUNT THEREOF
IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.' “

37. "For by thy words
thou shalt be justified,
and by thy words
thou shalt be condemned."

HOW DARE YOU LAUGH AT PEOPLE STUMBLING IN DARKNESS AT STUMBLINGBLOCKS YOU PEOPLE SET FOR YOUR OWN AMUSEMENT!

May you be Saved from the Rightful Suffering for your wickedness!

. LUKE 6:20-26.

20. And he lifted up his eyes
on his Disciples,
and Said,

"Blessed be ye Poor:
for yours is The Kingdom of God.
21. "Blessed are ye
that hunger now:
for ye shall be filled.
Blessed are ye that weep now:
or ye shall laugh.
22. "Blessed are ye,
when men shall hate you,
and when they shall
separate you from their company,
and shall reproach you,
and cast out your name as Evil,
for The Son of Man's sake.
23. "Rejoice ye in that day,
and leap for joy:
for, behold,
your Reward is great in Heaven:
or in the like manner did their fathers
unto The Prophets.
24. "But woe unto you
that are Rich!
for ye have received
your Consolation.
25. "Woe unto you
that are full!
For ye shall hunger.
Woe unto you that laugh now!
For ye shall mourn and weep.
26. "Woe unto you,
when all men
shall speak well of you!
For so did their fathers
to The False Prophets."

JUDGMENT IS COMING- AND ONLY MY TEACHINGS GUARANTEE ESCAPE AND DELIVERANCE!

But if you wait until the Judgment gets here, it will be too late to start learning!

For all I know, it can be too late, already!

"Christians" in the Northern States should know what I am talking about.

. MATTHEW 25:1-13.

"THEN shall
The Kingdom of Heaven
be likened unto ten Virgins,
which took their lamps,
and went forth
to meet the Bridegroom.
2. "And five of them
were Wise,
and five were Foolish.
3. "They that were Foolish
took their lamps,
and took no oil with them:
4. "But the Wise took oil
in their vessels
with their lamps.
5. "While the Bridegroom tarried,
they all slumbered
and slept.
6. "And at midnight
there was a cry made,

BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH;
GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM.'

7. "Then all those Virgins arose,
and trimmed their lamps.
8. "And the Foolish said
unto the Wise,

'GIVE US OF YOUR OIL;
FOR OUR LAMPS
ARE GONE OUT.'

9. "But the Wise answered,
saying,

'NOT SO;
LEST THERE BE NOT ENOUGH
FOR US AND YOU:
BUT GO YE RATHER
TO THEM THAT SELL,
AND BUY FOR YOURSELVES.'

10. "And while they went to buy, the Bridegroom came;
and they that were ready
went in with him
to the Marriage:
and the door was shut.
11. "Afterward came also
the other Virgins,
saying,

'LORD, LORD, OPEN TO US.'

12. "But he answered and said,

'Verily I say unto you,

[b]"I KNOW YOU NOT." '

13. "Watch therefore,
for ye know neither
the Day nor the Hour wherein
The Son of Man cometh.

WHEN LORD YESHUA RETURNS TO EXTRACT THOSE WORTHY TO MISS THE GREAT TRIBULATION EVENT, ONLY THOSE WORTHY WILL HAVE BOTH THE POWER TO HEAR HIM, AND TO ASCEND.

A few will have the Power to hear, but will be caught " FLAT-FOOTED," so to speak- OFF-THEIR-GUARD- and be UNABLE to TRANSFORM and ASCEND.

THE FIVE FOOLISH VIRGINS ARE ARCHETYPES OF THOSE WHO WERE SATISFIED WITH THE SPORADIC MANIFESTATION OF THE FIRST FIVE "TALENTS," WHICH ARE MORTAL, AND EXHAUSTIBLE.

The Five Wise Virgins are archetypes of the Sixth through Tenth Talents: these are IMMORTAL and INEXHAUSTIBLE; they are attained by [b]PROLONGED HOLINESS.[b]

Only these will be guaranteed able to go up in [b]"THE RAPTURE."

Some Oyinbo Christians have the stupid idea that people who were converted at the last minute- and even BABIES- will go up in "THE RAPTURE!"

[See: CHAOS! by Jack T. Chick.]

The majority of mere Believers will NOT even HEAR The Voice of Lord Yeshua, and will probably not even notice those who Ascended, nor believe those who Heard, but were too late in gaining Ascension Power, and found themselves BLOCKED from entering in with Lord Yeshua.

You may laugh at your own stupidity now- but you probably won't laugh when THE FINAL ASCENSION takes place, and the Signs and Wonders occur as Lord Yeshua prophesied.

ANTON LaVEY, the High Priest of The CHURCH OF SATAN, talked BIG, until minutes before he died, when he broke down, and began begging for Jesus to forgive him.

That is not how it works.

REPENT NOW- WHILE IT IS EASY, AND SOMEONE IS WILLING AND AVAILABLE TO WASTE HIS TIME ON YOU, AND HELP YOU!

Stop believing those who are telling you that your situation (under their control) is "fine," for their own personal gain!

You accuse Christians of wanting people to worship them- and some do- your actions toward God should not be dictated by others.

We all know all of The Commandments of God we are breaking, when we are not doing our Duty by God, and will have no tenable excuses when we stand before God in Judgment.

. LEVITICUS 19:32-37.

32. Thou shalt rise up
before the hoary head,
and honour the face
of the old man,
and fear thy God:
I (am) The LORD.
33. "And if a stranger
sojourn with thee in your land,
ye shall not vex him.
34. " (But) the stranger
that dwelleth with you
shall be unto you
as one born among you,
and thou shalt love him
as thyself;
for ye were strangers
in the land of Egypt:
I (am) The LORD your God.
35. "Ye shall do
no unrighteousness in Judgment,
in meteyard, in weight,
or in measure.
36. "Just balances,
just weights,
a just ephah,
and a just hin,
shall ye have:
I (am) The LORD your God,
Which brought you
out of the land of Egypt.
37.Therefore shall ye
observe all My Statutes,
and all My Judgments,
and do them:
I am The LORD."

IT SHOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR ARROGANT CONFIDENCE, WHEN YOU HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE TIMES YOU TOLD SERVANTS OF GOD, EXPLAINING THE WAY, THAT THEY TALKED TOO MUCH!

The Word of God is FOOD; without enough of It, your Souls will be weak, puny, and emaciated, like Plague and Famine Victims' Bodies. That is why wicked Oyinbos dominate and enslave you at this time.

Everything you believe, think, say, and do is what they ORDER you to believe, think, say, and do.

You are mere Oyinbo Puppets, with no will, nor ideas- no SELF-DETERMINISM of your own.

Whereas, only I teach The Way of Freedom.

. JOHN 8:28-53.

28. Then Said Jesus
unto them,

"When ye have lifted up
The Son of Man,
then shall ye know
that I am he,
and that I do
nothing of myself;
but as my Father
hath Taught me,
I Speak these things.
29. "And He that sent me
is with me:
The Father hath not
left me alone;
for I do always those things
that please Him."

30. As he Spake
these Words,
many believed on him.

31. Then Said Jesus
to those Jews
which believed on him,

"If ye continue
in my Word,
then are ye
my Disciples indeed;
32. "And ye shall
know The Truth,
and The Truth
shall make you Free."

33. They answered him,

"We be Abraham's Seed,
and were never in bondage
to any man:
how sayest thou,  

'YE SHALL BE
MADE FREE?' "

34. Jesus answered them,

"Verily, verily,
I Say unto you,

WHOSOEVER COMMITTETH SIN
IS THE SERVANT OF SIN.
35. 'AND THE SERVANT
ABIDETH NOT
IN THE HOUSE FOR EVER:
BUT THE SON
ABIDETH EVER.'

36. "If the Son therefore
shall make you free,
ye shall be free indeed.
37. "I know that ye are
Abraham's Seed;
but ye seek to kill me,
because my Word hath
no place in you.
38. "I Speak That Which
I have seen with my Father:
and ye do that which
ye have seen with your Father."

39. They answered
and said unto him,

"Abraham is our father."

Jesus Saith unto them,

"If ye were Abraham's Children,
ye would do
the Works of Abraham.
40. "But now
ye seek to kill me,
a man that hath told you
The Truth,
Which I have heard of God:
this did not Abraham.
41. "Ye do the deeds
of your father."

Then said they to him,

"We be not
born of fornication;
we have one Father,
even God."
42. Jesus Said unto them,

"If God were your Father,
ye would love me
for I proceeded forth
and came from God;
neither came I of myself,
but He sent me.
43. "Why do ye not
understand my Speech?
Even because ye cannot
hear my Word.
44. "Ye are of your
Father The Devil,
and the lusts
of your Father ye will do.
He was a Murderer
From The Beginning,
and abode not in The Truth,
because there is
no Truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar,
and the Father of It.
45. "And because
I Tell you The Truth,
ye believe me not.
46. "Which of you
convinceth me of Sin?
And if I say The Truth,
why do ye not believe me?
47. "He that is of God
heareth God's Words:
ye therefore hear them not,
because ye are not of God."

48. Then answered the Jews,
and said unto him,

"Say we not well
that thou art a Samaritan,
and hast a Devil?"

49. Jesus answered,

"I have not a Devil;
but I honour my Father,
and ye do dishonour me.
50. "And I seek not
mine own Glory:
there is one that seeketh
and judgeth.

51. "Verily, verily,
I Say unto you,

'IF A MAN
KEEP MY SAYING,
HE SHALL NEVER
SEE DEATH.' "

52. Then said the Jews
unto him,

"Now we know
that thou hast a Devil.
Abraham is dead,
and the Prophets;
and thou sayest,

'IF A MAN
KEEP MY SAYING,
HE SHALL NEVER
TASTE OF DEATH.'

53. "Art thou greater
than our father Abraham,
which is dead?
and the Prophets are dead:
whom makest thou thyself?"

IF YOU WERE HUMBLE ENOUGH TO DO WHAT LORD YESHUA SAID, YOUR MIND WOULD HAVE THE FUNDAMENTAL BUILDING-BLOCKS OF PERCEPTION TO PERCEIVE AND UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH.

[Concluded.]

shadeyinka:

I can understand why you live in fear as for God's true children fear isn't our portion
2Tim 1:7:
"For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

It still amazes me when I see the depth of your hypnosis and brainwashing: it's at the depth of demonic possession by your organisation. I pray your eyes will one day be opened before your time is up.

The fact that you know me as a normal Christian is OK! I'll rather you be a "little Christ" too than a bigot of an earthly hellbound organisation leading 8.5million ever increasing souls into perdition!

Mar 9:42:
"And whoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

Those 8.5million are

Unitedly worshiping one God as a global family of peace lovers! John 17:20-23

Destroying all weapons of war as none of them carries or learn war no more! Isaiah 2:1-4 compared to Matthew 26:52

Zealously preaching and teaching their respective neighbours how to embrace PEACE! Matthew 10:11-15, 24:14, 28:19-20

Hugging one another anywhere they find members as brothers and sisters in the name of the God of LOVE! Matthew 12:46-50 compared to Psalms 133:1, 1John 4:8

So if this is the fruitage {Galatians 5:22-23} that you term as that of the souls of perdition, and you can't present, point, tell, show me a better performing group whose FAITH could be SEEN by their WORKS {James 2:18-26} please include my name with the 8,500,000 because i'll love to be one of them Sir!

God bless you!

Maximus69:


Those 8.5million are

Unitedly worshiping one God as a global family of peace lovers! John 17:20-23

Destroying all weapons of war as none of them carries or learn war no more! Isaiah 2:1-4 compared to Matthew 26:52

Zealously preaching and teaching their respective neighbours how to embrace PEACE! Matthew 10:11-15, 24:14, 28:19-20

Hugging one another anywhere they find members as brothers and sisters in the name of the God of LOVE! Matthew 12:46-50 compared to Psalms 133:1, 1John 4:8

So if this is the fruitage {Galatians 5:22-23} that you term as that of the souls of perdition, and you can't present, point, tell, show me a better performing group whose FAITH could be SEEN by their WORKS {James 2:18-26} please include my name with the 8,500,000 because i'll love to be one of them Sir!

God bless you!

I cringe at the thought of so many souls who are candidate of hellfire except God opens their eyes before it's too late.

Daejoyoung:


you said...<I think that you just made my point. In so far as you are like me, there is little chance of your changing in the things that you believe. However, this conversation has gone on because you have continued to answer me in a way that suggests some possibility of a real exchange rather than yet another shouting match on Nairaland. What I have been doing is alerting you to what my interest in a conversation like this is. As I said, I don't enter them because I have any doubts about what I believe or because I want to discover the errors in my belief system. I have the Bible and my pastor-teacher for that. So, if you want to discuss things with the Bible as an umpire, that's fine by me. If you don't, then there is no possibility of any discussion.>

ok then so we are not here to change each other's views only explain our side of things. However if you say something that is reasonable and also convincing to me, l would learn from you, l am not limited to just my bible and pastor-teachers. l can learn new things from anyone after weighing their arguement on a scale usually for logic, consistency, and scripture in that order.

you said...<Next, I have not yet called you a heretic or blasphemer. I have warned you instead that you are behaving like them. Believe me, if I was convinced that you were either, that is what I would actually call you. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt before labeling them here.>

Fair enough, but heretic is in the eye of the beholder, your heretic is another man's saint.

you said....<Next, if you consider it arrogant that I am refusing to yield my position, that is more telling about you than about me. As I said, I offered an answer to a difficulty that you raised. I often leave things at that. I only go on to discuss my answer further if there seems to be a reasonable occasion for me to do so. That is what I do on Nairaland. If anyone knows the Truth, then they ought to hold on to it and not play fast and loose with it.>

ok then, it's great that you know the truth already, all l am doing is examining this truth, not necessarily for you but for the audience and myself.

You said < As for your position on the Cross, I think that that is already evident. But if you don't think that your comments so far are not representative of your position on it, then you should explain further. You should also note that, as I said before, I have seen other things that you have said about the Cross in other discussions than this one>.

ok my position on the cross is that jesus died for two things as explained by himself in the gospels:
1) Mark 10v45, the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
2) And he took the cup and gave thanks and said drink, this is my blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins.

1)Jesus ransom was for the new Israel, the remnant of his nation Israel that would listen to his teachings, live by it and survive. Caiphas stated in the gospel of john, that it is better for one man to die for the nation than for the entire nation to be destroyed, this high priest unknowingly was making a true prophecy here.
The fear was that the Romans would come to destroy the Jewish nation after the triumphant entry and the cleansing of the temple. The problem was that if the Romans take action, many would die in lsrael for the sake of jesus and both he and his followers would be wiped out. Part of the fear of jesus at the garden of gethsemane seem to be that his disciples would be taken as well, and so he told them to even buy two swords in the gospel of luke.
To show that this fear was real, in the gospel of john( john 18v8-9), he came forward to present himself saying if you seek me let this men go.

Also notice that in Mark 10v45, jesus says true glory is not like the world think it is, but it is that of service. So in that world, the heroes were the Caesars, so when the disciples saw jesus naked on the cross, presenting himself to be taken and to die in their place, so as not to lose any of them( john 18v8-9), it changed their perception of what it means to be hero. So the cross is foolishness to the world, because a hero is not supposed to be on the cross, but to us, it is the power and wisdom of God says saint paul.

2) His blood for the forgiveness of sins is to show the fulfillment of the passover celebration. lt represents freedom from exile to all held bound in slavery due to sins of mankind towards one another. lt all goes back to Abraham, when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that command didn't make any sense, because isaac was the promised one through whom the world be blessed, and Abraham knew that God's promises are irrevocable, but Abraham obeyed because he reasoned that God is able to raise him from the dead. This is why Abraham became righteous in God's sight because he did works of faith still in hope of that promise, so also God was showing that even if lsrael is destroyed(all her firstborn sons as in Egypt)and go on exile, God is able to bring the nation back to life again to fulfill the promises. Even if jesus, the promised one and son of God gets killed in obedience to God, God is able to raise him from the dead. So death is not a barrier to the promise of a better world through the seed of Abraham, even death of the messaiah because God would also give us power over death because we would come back alive.

Also a passover was sacrificed as a sign but the passover lamb itself is just to bring this to remembrance just like Abel sacrificed an animal to the lord, but Abel( the first blameless man)became a sacrifice himself for obeying God, he paid the price for his faith, so that his blood still cries out to God for vengeance just like all the righteous blood shed on the earth due to oppression and sins or wickedness of their killers, while jesus cries out for forgiveness in contrast because of his love asking God for reconciliation of the world( even the worst of the world) to God. lt is in this way that the sacrifice of jesus moves God on his throne because it is in tune with the will of God, for while it is true that God wants to punish these evil doers like cain and the Romans, he wants to punish them for correction not their total destruction because God loves the world.
The Israelites also sacrificed a lamb to avert the angel of death, the lamb saved them from becoming extinct as a nation, so the lamb was a hero, the killing of the lamb was to remind themselves that a lamb took their place and they continued to do this for the forgiveness of sins(meaning release from exile or slavery).The lamb was the sacrifice that saved the nation from being extinct to slavery. The lamb represents jesus who saves his people from slavery due to sin, but the death of a lamb only averted slavery, exile and death and in practice doesn't take away sin by itself.
But with jesus, first obeying his teachings by faith through his spirit takes away sins, secondly his blood crying out to God for forgiveness of sins saves the world because he died loving even his enemies to the end. This is not substitutionary atonement, this is a demonstration of the teaching that says love your enemies which we are called to live by even unto the death.

So in summary, we are to take up our own cross and follow jesus not believing that jesus was a human sacrifice to appease God in our place, but rather that he not only showed us an example but that his blood still speaks unto this day.
The authors in the new testament only stress on antonement to show the jews that they no longer needed the passover lamb which marked freedom from slavery, but that that passover lamb that saved the nation then from dying at the hands of pharaoh and the angel of death is actually jesus the hero that dies as a ransom to the Romans to eventually set up the era of the kingdom of God through his disciples(the new Israel) who would carry out the promises of Abraham and the hope of the world by spreading the legacy of jesus(his spirit) to the world.

Daejoyoung:
Ihedinobi3 as to your last point which was about the bible, my answer to that is that the bible is not the word of God, rather it contains the word, or wasn't the bible written by men?
Finally l am here to learn, not for any agenda.

I think that I have understood you now. I have not yet seen you taking pains to mislead other believers, although I have not made it that high a priority to investigate you, so you may have been doing it and I just haven't seen you do it, so I won't call you a false teacher yet.

However, you do not respect the Bible as God's Own Authoritative Testimony. Therefore, you do not accept what it says as final. You are your own authority. You pick and choose what you will believe with reference to nothing but a standard of your own making.

Let me explain to you what Titus 3:9-11 means:

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Titus 3:9-11 NASB

People who are factious or heretics, as the KJV puts it, are people who are always looking to be divisive. The word "heretic" is often used in a way that has little to do with what the Bible actually says, but what Titus 3:9-11 means is that such people do not accept Scriptural authority. They pretend to be able to determine the Truth for themselves independent of the proper channels of authority that the Lord Himself has given. In other words, they are their own authority. They have no interest in any standard that is independent of them.

Such people inevitably end up in blasphemy and cultlike behavior. That is how many of the "churches" and "religious movements" of this world, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholic Church, Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, Seventh Day Adventists, and the myriad pentecostal and Word of Faith churches today became and are becoming what they are now. The instant that some charismatic person dispenses with the Truth and sets themselves up as the standard of truth, the natural thing that follows is a twisting and corrupting of the Truth in very terrible ways to draw disciples after themselves. That is, they become blasphemers and false teachers.

Let me explain blasphemers to you too. A blasphemer is a person that essentially defames God's Character and attributes things to Him that are not true of Him. That is, they are people who lie against God, whether by claiming something about Him that is untrue or by claiming that He said or says things that He did not say at all. Basically, blasphemy is slander against God.

You should be able to see the progression here. Once a person dismisses the Bible as the authority on what is true and what isn't, then they must decide how to know the Truth independent of the Bible. Unfailingly, such a person decides that it is only their own selves that they can trust. When they make that decision, they then begin to amass information from all kinds of sources and set themselves up as the umpire or arbiter that decides what is true and what isn't. Of course, they will only believe whatever they like and reject what they don't like. In the end, these people will believe many things that are completely untrue of God. And they will communicate it to others! Once they start doing that, they have become blasphemers and false teachers.

Now, since you do not accept the Bible to be the very Word of God, that is, His Very Own Testimony, His Own Declaration of What is True, and therefore, as the True Standard by which to measure every claim and every information to tell what is true and what isn't, you are a heretic. You may not know it or accept it, but neither is necessary for you to actually be a heretic in much the same way that it is not necessary for a child to accept that they are a child for them to be a child. Things are what they are independent of what opinion they might have of themselves.

I had already warned you that you have been talking and acting like a heretic and a blasphemer. Now I am telling you that you are actually these things. If you do not accept the authority of the Bible, you are in very dire straits indeed. I urge you to rethink that decision to reject the authority of the Bible. Until you do, you and I cannot discuss. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, the God and Man Whom the Bible reveals. So, it is not possible for you and I to discuss meaningfully if you do not subscribe to the authority of the Bible. You will be providing yourself as an authority in our discussions and I will be depending entirely on the Bible. Such a situation will only lead to quarrels.

So, as you said before, we must leave things at this point. We cannot discuss. But I do urge you to repent and believe the Gospel before it is too late for you.

Ihedinobi3:


I think that I have understood you now. I have not yet seen you taking pains to mislead other believers, although I have not made it that high a priority to investigate you, so you may have been doing it and I just haven't seen you do it, so I won't call you a false teacher yet.


However, you do not respect the Bible as God's Own Authoritative Testimony. Therefore, you do not accept what it says as final. You are your own authority. You pick and choose what you will believe with reference to nothing but a standard of your own making.

Let me explain to you what Titus 3:9-11 means:

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Titus 3:9-11 NASB

People who are factious or heretics, as the KJV puts it, are people who are always looking to be divisive. The word "heretic" is often used in a way that has little to do with what the Bible actually says, but what Titus 3:9-11 means is that such people do not accept Scriptural authority. They pretend to be able to determine the Truth for themselves independent of the proper channels of authority that the Lord Himself has given. In other words, they are their own authority. They have no interest in any standard that is independent of them.

Such people inevitably end up in blasphemy and cultlike behavior. That is how many of the "churches" and "religious movements" of this world, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholic Church, Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, Seventh Day Adventists, and the myriad pentecostal and Word of Faith churches today became and are becoming what they are now. The instant that some charismatic person dispenses with the Truth and sets themselves up as the standard of truth, the natural thing that follows is a twisting and corrupting of the Truth in very terrible ways to draw disciples after themselves. That is, they become blasphemers and false teachers.

Let me explain blasphemers to you too. A blasphemer is a person that essentially defames God's Character and attributes things to Him that are not true of Him. That is, they are people who lie against God, whether by claiming something about Him that is untrue or by claiming that He said or says things that He did not say at all. Basically, blasphemy is slander against God.

You should be able to see the progression here. Once a person dismisses the Bible as the authority on what is true and what isn't, then they must decide how to know the Truth independent of the Bible. Unfailingly, such a person decides that it is only their own selves that they can trust. When they make that decision, they then begin to amass information from all kinds of sources and set themselves up as the umpire or arbiter that decides what is true and what isn't. Of course, they will only believe whatever they like and reject what they don't like. In the end, these people will believe many things that are completely untrue of God. And they will communicate it to others! Once they start doing that, they have become blasphemers and false teachers.

Now, since you do not accept the Bible to be the very Word of God, that is, His Very Own Testimony, His Own Declaration of What is True, and therefore, as the True Standard by which to measure every claim and every information to tell what is true and what isn't, you are a heretic. You may not know it or accept it, but neither is necessary for you to actually be a heretic in much the same way that it is not necessary for a child to accept that they are a child for them to be a child. Things are what they are independent of what opinion they might have of themselves.

I had already warned you that you have been talking and acting like a heretic and a blasphemer. Now I am telling you that you are actually these things. If you do not accept the authority of the Bible, you are in very dire straits indeed. I urge you to rethink that decision to reject the authority of the Bible. Until you do, you and I cannot discuss. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, the God and Man Whom the Bible reveals. So, it is not possible for you and I to discuss meaningfully if you do not subscribe to the authority of the Bible. You will be providing yourself as an authority in our discussions and I will be depending entirely on the Bible. Such a situation will only lead to quarrels.

So, as you said before, we must leave things at this point. We cannot discuss. But I do urge you to repent and believe the Gospel before it is too late for you.

you wrote.....I think that I have understood you now. I have not yet seen you taking pains to mislead other believers, although I have not made it that high a priority to investigate you, so you may have been doing it and I just haven't seen you do it, so I won't call you a false teacher yet.
lol ok, fair enough.

you wrote...However, you do not respect the Bible as God's Own Authoritative Testimony. Therefore, you do not accept what it says as final. You are your own authority. You pick and choose what you will believe with reference to nothing but a standard of your own making.

We all pick and choose what we believe.Even jesus was quoted as saying in john 5v46:
You search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life, but it is they which testify of me. The scripture is pointing to the kingdom of God preached by jesus and also demonstrated through the cross.
Even jesus didn't accept all scriptures at face value, he used scripture to compare scripture and then finally made a logical arguement from there, on the issue of divorce he said... Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard, but in Genesis 1, God made them both Male and Female (paraphrased). You can see that he uses one scripture to override the other, this is because jesus deals on principles across scriptures not necessarily the letter. l can also prove to you that you pick and choose, and everyone does it, if you really want to know how, just ask me.

You wrote...People who are factious or heretics, as the KJV puts it, are people who are always looking to be divisive. The word "heretic" is often used in a way that has little to do with what the Bible actually says, but what Titus 3:9-11 means is that such people do not accept Scriptural authority. They pretend to be able to determine the Truth for themselves independent of the proper channels of authority that the Lord Himself has given. In other words, they are their own authority. They have no interest in any standard that is independent of them.

The bible should be questioned and our faith should be put to the test and that has nothing to do with being divisive, because as a rational person l believe you question most things in life you come across, else how do you differentiate between the right spirit and the wrong if you don't test the spirit. The passage only tells you to avoid endless geneologies and things that don't really matter and are just purely religious stuff, it is not against asking questions about basic spiritual truths, because even paul reasoned with people both from scriptures and their own philosophy.
Questioning is not a bad thing, it is the culture that gave rise to science, philosophy and even religion in some ways. When your children ask you questions as a pastor-teacher and they are not satisfied with your answers and then you call them divisive or heretics they eventually become atheists and this is why atheism is on the rise, because parents and pastors are not interested in sound scholarship of the bible and they present a Christianity that is against questioning and so people no longer see the power of christianity because they don't understand it's context and pastor-teachers are not helping matters.

You wrote...Let me explain blasphemers to you too. A blasphemer is a person that essentially defames God's Character and attributes things to Him that are not true of Him. That is, they are people who lie against God, whether by claiming something about Him that is untrue or by claiming that He said or says things that He did not say at all. Basically, blasphemy is slander against God.

A person presenting how he understands scripture or asking questions is not a blasphemer, however those who blaspheme against the Holyspirit cannot be forgiven because they are those who deny the power of God within to save and heal even when the power and miracles are evident to all, because only the power of God within us can save us.

You Wrote....You should be able to see the progression here. Once a person dismisses the Bible as the authority on what is true and what isn't, then they must decide how to know the Truth independent of the Bible. Unfailingly, such a person decides that it is only their own selves that they can trust. When they make that decision, they then begin to amass information from all kinds of sources and set themselves up as the umpire or arbiter that decides what is true and what isn't. Of course, they will only believe whatever they like and reject what they don't like. In the end, these people will believe many things that are completely untrue of God. And they will communicate it to others! Once they start doing that, they have become blasphemers and false teachers.

When you were looking for your truth, you admitted that you had to remove some things and add some things, why did you do all these if you think you didn't have to use your own reasoning and teachings from others to understand scripture. What you believe about scripture is not in a vacuum and mostly comes from yourself and how you see things. Not everyone understands a text thesame way, not every culture is alike and we have many influences and most of all we have our brain and our innate conscience which Holyspirit wants to work upon. Even if we don't agree with each other on everything, we can love each other, only through that would the world distinguish us as disciples.

You Wrote...Now, since you do not accept the Bible to be the very Word of God, that is, His Very Own Testimony, His Own Declaration of What is True, and therefore, as the True Standard by which to measure every claim and every information to tell what is true and what isn't, you are a heretic. You may not know it or accept it, but neither is necessary for you to actually be a heretic in much the same way that it is not necessary for a child to accept that they are a child for them to be a child. Things are what they are independent of what opinion they might have of themselves.


What is the bible? ln the bible we have the words of Angel's, demons, prophets, satan, heck even animals. So how can it all be the word of God except you say it is a spiritual fossil record given to us by God to lead us to him, in that sense only the bible can be said to be the word of God.

Take Ecclesiastes for instance, if you study that book as the word of God teaching you theology you miss some things about its importance and power, but when you read it as the quest of the author to understand life, then you appreciate it for what it is, also songs of Solomon and even the psalms that sometimes question God. This is why l say the bible as a whole is a spiritual fossil Record, it is a flawed book like every other book, but it's strength is that it contains spiritual truth here and there which we must discern. But we cannot discern these spiritual truths if we deceive ourselves that it is the verbatim word of God.Also the bible has contradictions, and of course such is expected, the way one author sees things may not be the way the others see things, of course they are humans and that is the strength of the bible and this is how God have decided to speak to us through the bible. lf the bible is all we need then why do we even need the spirit of truth? We read the bible and then confirm with the spirit of truth within, but we also must listen to our fellow man to understand how he understands the spirit in him.

You Wrote...l had already warned you that you have been talking and acting like a heretic and a blasphemer. Now I am telling you that you are actually these things. If you do not accept the authority of the Bible, you are in very dire straits indeed. I urge you to rethink that decision to reject the authority of the Bible. Until you do, you and I cannot discuss. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, the God and Man Whom the Bible reveals. So, it is not possible for you and I to discuss meaningfully if you do not subscribe to the authority of the Bible. You will be providing yourself as an authority in our discussions and I will be depending entirely on the Bible. Such a situation will only lead to quarrels

lol what if you also sound like an heretic to me, although l don't like using the term heretic but people who make God look like a pagan god by saying he needed a kind of sacrifice with blood to forgive sins without thoroughly explaining what this means in context, or when they do so only by attributing it to some kind of spiritual reason, sound like heretics to me. Moreso people who say that all you have to do to become a Christian is to just believe in this sacrifice(as described above) and you are a follower of jesus ( even though jesus never taught these), these ones are not just heretics but blasphemers of God in my eyes, because they then deceive themselves that they are to do nothing to be known as Christians, only believe.
They say things like.. (jesus teachings in the gospels were for those under the law but we are not under the law). As far as l am concerned nothing else could be more heretical than these.

shadeyinka:

I cringe at the thought of so many souls who are candidate of hellfire except God opens their eyes before it's too late.

Hmmmmmmmmm

So your own God will roast good people who did fine works that's my own God promised in his words! This your God must be hopeless indeed

My friend, wake up from this spiritual slumber!

Maximus69:


Hmmmmmmmmm

So your own God will roast good people who did fine works that's my own God promised in his words! This your God must be hopeless indeed

My friend, wake up from this spiritual slumber!

For something this serious, I have no further comments!

shadeyinka:

For something this serious, I have no further comments!

There is NOTHING serious in what you're saying without any DEMONSTRATION to get a glimpse of it's REALITY Sir! Hebrew 11:1

What all religionists are saying on this planet is based on hearsay that's NOT SEEN, that's the import of DEMONSTRATION of what is said!

Only Jehovah's Witnesses are proving to be REAL WITNESSES that what they're saying is possible.

You're just being CREDULOUS with nowhere to show observers as example of what you are saying Sir!

Maximus69:


Hmmmmmmmmm

So your own God will roast good people who did fine works that's my own God promised in his words! This your God must be hopeless indeed

My friend, wake up from this spiritual slumber!

A real spiritual slumber.

Daejoyoung:


you wrote.....I think that I have understood you now. I have not yet seen you taking pains to mislead other believers, although I have not made it that high a priority to investigate you, so you may have been doing it and I just haven't seen you do it, so I won't call you a false teacher yet.
lol ok, fair enough.

you wrote...However, you do not respect the Bible as God's Own Authoritative Testimony. Therefore, you do not accept what it says as final. You are your own authority. You pick and choose what you will believe with reference to nothing but a standard of your own making.

We all pick and choose what we believe.Even jesus was quoted as saying in john 5v46:
You search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life, but it is they which testify of me. The scripture is pointing to the kingdom of God preached by jesus and also demonstrated through the cross.
Even jesus didn't accept all scriptures at face value, he used scripture to compare scripture and then finally made a logical arguement from there, on the issue of divorce he said... Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard, but in Genesis 1, God made them both Male and Female (paraphrased). You can see that he uses one scripture to override the other, this is because jesus deals on principles across scriptures not necessarily the letter. l can also prove to you that you pick and choose, and everyone does it, if you really want to know how, just ask me.

You wrote...People who are factious or heretics, as the KJV puts it, are people who are always looking to be divisive. The word "heretic" is often used in a way that has little to do with what the Bible actually says, but what Titus 3:9-11 means is that such people do not accept Scriptural authority. They pretend to be able to determine the Truth for themselves independent of the proper channels of authority that the Lord Himself has given. In other words, they are their own authority. They have no interest in any standard that is independent of them.

The bible should be questioned and our faith should be put to the test and that has nothing to do with being divisive, because as a rational person l believe you question most things in life you come across, else how do you differentiate between the right spirit and the wrong if you don't test the spirit. The passage only tells you to avoid endless geneologies and things that don't really matter and are just purely religious stuff, it is not against asking questions about basic spiritual truths, because even paul reasoned with people both from scriptures and their own philosophy.
Questioning is not a bad thing, it is the culture that gave rise to science, philosophy and even religion in some ways. When your children ask you questions as a pastor-teacher and they are not satisfied with your answers and then you call them divisive or heretics they eventually become atheists and this is why atheism is on the rise, because parents and pastors are not interested in sound scholarship of the bible and they present a Christianity that is against questioning and so people no longer see the power of christianity because they don't understand it's context and pastor-teachers are not helping matters.

You wrote...Let me explain blasphemers to you too. A blasphemer is a person that essentially defames God's Character and attributes things to Him that are not true of Him. That is, they are people who lie against God, whether by claiming something about Him that is untrue or by claiming that He said or says things that He did not say at all. Basically, blasphemy is slander against God.

A person presenting how he understands scripture or asking questions is not a blasphemer, however those who blaspheme against the Holyspirit cannot be forgiven because they are those who deny the power of God within to save and heal even when the power and miracles are evident to all, because only the power of God within us can save us.

You Wrote....You should be able to see the progression here. Once a person dismisses the Bible as the authority on what is true and what isn't, then they must decide how to know the Truth independent of the Bible. Unfailingly, such a person decides that it is only their own selves that they can trust. When they make that decision, they then begin to amass information from all kinds of sources and set themselves up as the umpire or arbiter that decides what is true and what isn't. Of course, they will only believe whatever they like and reject what they don't like. In the end, these people will believe many things that are completely untrue of God. And they will communicate it to others! Once they start doing that, they have become blasphemers and false teachers.

When you were looking for your truth, you admitted that you had to remove some things and add some things, why did you do all these if you think you didn't have to use your own reasoning and teachings from others to understand scripture. What you believe about scripture is not in a vacuum and mostly comes from yourself and how you see things. Not everyone understands a text thesame way, not every culture is alike and we have many influences and most of all we have our brain and our innate conscience which Holyspirit wants to work upon. Even if we don't agree with each other on everything, we can love each other, only through that would the world distinguish us as disciples.

You Wrote...Now, since you do not accept the Bible to be the very Word of God, that is, His Very Own Testimony, His Own Declaration of What is True, and therefore, as the True Standard by which to measure every claim and every information to tell what is true and what isn't, you are a heretic. You may not know it or accept it, but neither is necessary for you to actually be a heretic in much the same way that it is not necessary for a child to accept that they are a child for them to be a child. Things are what they are independent of what opinion they might have of themselves.


What is the bible? ln the bible we have the words of Angel's, demons, prophets, satan, heck even animals. So how can it all be the word of God except you say it is a spiritual fossil record given to us by God to lead us to him, in that sense only the bible can be said to be the word of God.

Take Ecclesiastes for instance, if you study that book as the word of God teaching you theology you miss some things about its importance and power, but when you read it as the quest of the author to understand life, then you appreciate it for what it is, also songs of Solomon and even the psalms that sometimes question God. This is why l say the bible as a whole is a spiritual fossil Record, it is a flawed book like every other book, but it's strength is that it contains spiritual truth here and there which we must discern. But we cannot discern these spiritual truths if we deceive ourselves that it is the verbatim word of God.Also the bible has contradictions, and of course such is expected, the way one author sees things may not be the way the others see things, of course they are humans and that is the strength of the bible and this is how God have decided to speak to us through the bible. lf the bible is all we need then why do we even need the spirit of truth? We read the bible and then confirm with the spirit of truth within, but we also must listen to our fellow man to understand how he understands the spirit in him.

You Wrote...l had already warned you that you have been talking and acting like a heretic and a blasphemer. Now I am telling you that you are actually these things. If you do not accept the authority of the Bible, you are in very dire straits indeed. I urge you to rethink that decision to reject the authority of the Bible. Until you do, you and I cannot discuss. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, the God and Man Whom the Bible reveals. So, it is not possible for you and I to discuss meaningfully if you do not subscribe to the authority of the Bible. You will be providing yourself as an authority in our discussions and I will be depending entirely on the Bible. Such a situation will only lead to quarrels

lol what if you also sound like an heretic to me, although l don't like using the term heretic but people who make God look like a pagan god by saying he needed a kind of sacrifice with blood to forgive sins without thoroughly explaining what this means in context, or when they do so only by attributing it to some kind of spiritual reason, sound like heretics to me. Moreso people who say that all you have to do to become a Christian is to just believe in this sacrifice(as described above) and you are a follower of jesus ( even though jesus never taught these), these ones are not just heretics but blasphemers of God in my eyes, because they then deceive themselves that they are to do nothing to be known as Christians, only believe.
They say things like.. (jesus teachings in the gospels were for those under the law but we are not under the law). As far as l am concerned nothing else could be more heretical than these.

I think that you are missing the point. I said earlier that I have no problem with being questioned or challenged. It is not only my job as a pastor-teacher to explain what I believe as clearly as I can and demonstrate its trustworthiness from the Bible, but it is also my duty as a believer to give a good answer for the Hope that I have (1 Peter 3:15). So, the issue is not about me being willing to be questioned or challenged.

The problem is the authority on which anyone may challenge anything that they are told by anyone. Consider, for example, that if a student in a secondary school were to demand to see how something a physics teacher tells them is true, all the teacher needs to do is use a typical experiment designed in accordance with certain accepted laws and assumptions fo demonstrate the veracity of what he teaches them. If the student dismisses the laws and assumptions in question, then it is impossible to satisfy him.

Likewise, I cannot answer any questions and challenges that dispense with the authority of the Bible. If I try to do it, the result will merely be frustration on my part because I am assuming certain fundamental principles that the questioner or challenger does not accept. We would essentially be speaking different languages.

Let me attempt to give another example. The litmus test is a famous test for acidity or alkalinity. The test works on the principle that when a mix of natural dyes from lichens is exposed to alkaline or acidic liquids, it changes color from red to blue and from blue to red respectively. Now, if I tell a student that a certain liquid is alkaline and they don't believe me, I just get a litmus paper and put a drop of the liquid on it. If the paper is red and stays red, then that is almost perfect proof. It is imperfect proof because distilled water would not change the color of any litmus paper, so if it colorless and odorless, it could be distilled water. But if I get blue litmus paper and put a drop of the liquid on it and it turns red, then that is conclusive proof that the liquid is alkaline. If the student does not accept the basic principle of litmus testing and questions it, then there is no possibility of proving to them that any liquid at all is alkaline or acidic using litmus paper. I will have to find a test that they accept in order to be able to make such a proof.

The Bible is like the litmus test here. If you dismiss its authority or doubt its veracity, then there really is nothing more to say.

You claim that the Bible basically attacks itself. That is a common argument that many people make against the authority of the Bible. In fact, upon my return to Nairaland late last year, I cut my ministering teeth on such arguments here. I have no real difficulty demonstrating over and over again that the Scriptures cannot be broken (and the Lord Jesus Himself said that, see John 10:35), but I have consistently found the effort to be a waste of time and energy. That is, even if I were to show you how the Lord Jesus was absolutely not using any Scripture to override the other, the time and energy spent on that endeavor would be completely wasted, because if you reject the litmus paper as a reliable standard for establishing the alkalinity or acidity of a liquid, how on Earth can anyone persuade you that it is a reliable standard by going on to show you how the test works?

As your response shows, you have a clearly defined position on all things. You make matter-of-fact statements that you offer no proof for. That is precisely what we are going to keep having problems with. If I ask for proof, you will pull something out of your proverbial hat that is hinged on nothing at all but your own personal preferences. If I offer proof from the Bible, you will dismiss it. How then can we reach any kind of compromise or agreement?

It is impossible in this life to reach perfect agreement with even mature believers if you are a mature believer yourself, yet all believers take for granted that the Bible is the authority, so each wise believer attempts to make sure that what they believe and what they tell others is something that is really in the Bible, not something that they made up. Of course, there are many foolish believers who are digging their own proverbial grave by ignoring this principle, but it is a good rule of thumb, nonetheless. That is to say, although there is no perfect agreement in doctrine here on Earth in this mortal body, there is plenty of agreement for mature believers because they are all reading and learning the same Bible. Still, if there is imperfect agreement, how can any kind of agreement be possible with anyone who dispenses entirely with the authority of the Bible?

Again, I'll tell you. It is not impossible to show you how you are utterly wrong about the Bible. But it is a waste of time to do so with someone who has taken the position that you have. Before I even got to see how the Bible is one unified system of Truth, I had to take for granted that where I saw contradictions and difficulties, the problem was not with the Bible but with me myself. Giving the Bible the benefit of the doubt is what made it possible for me to hear its arguments and see the whole picture that it paints. That is the experience that every other believer who chooses spiritual growth and progress has.

Daejoyoung:
Ihedinobi3 as to your last point which was about the bible,
my answer to that is that the bible is not the word of God,
rather it contains the word, or wasn't the bible written by men?
Finally l am here to learn, not for any agenda.

[img]https://s5/images/MuttleyLaffsmhNFL.gif[/img]

Daejoyoung:

A real spiritual slumber.

Sometimes i just wonder how some people's brains easily enter reverse mode!

God's word clearly shows that God's will is for all the inhabitants of the earth to become one big happy family of peace loving worshippers! Psalms 133:1, Isaiah 2:1-4

God sent his only begotten son to help people achieve this purpose {John 17:20-23} that's been so difficult for humans with all our arrangements like OLYMPIC, BEAUTY CONTEXT, SOCCER and so many other concept organized to unite the inhabitants of the earth as a family.

Now a religious group have successfully gathered people from all nations under the heavens and turned them into a PERFECT peaceful global family under the PRINCE of PEACE {Isaiah 9:6}, and all these credulous idiots could say is
"they will be roasted alive forever" simply because they did not interpret God's word the way you've interpreted it rendering it hopeless and malfunctioning!

Walahi Talahi many people dey Colo no be small!

Maximus69:


Pastor
Teacher
Atonement
Cross
Christmas

All these teachings are FAKE that's why it CAN NOT unite people because they are NOT from Jesus! Matthew 7:16-18

Jesus' teachings will surely unite all it's adherents as ONE! John 17:20-23

So no matter how hard you try to pacify FAKE Christians, they will not accept or agree with you unless you're ready to WORSHIP them, neither will those WORSHIPING the same founder of their various Churches be found together as ONE in FAITH! 1Corinthians 14:33 compared to Galatians 6:16[

Jesus said "THEY WILL SCATTER!" Luke 11:23

Excellent example is Shadeyinka and MurttleyLaff, they will say so many things against Jehovah's Witnesses all because of their TRINITY deity but are they united in faith?

NO!

Remember Jesus' statement, "They will scatter!"

No matter how smart they try to be, since Satan (the god of confusion) is the one carrying them along, they can never agree as one! 2Corinthians 4:4

They will always remain DIVIDED! Galatians 5:20

Jesus said "The will be scattered" Luke 11:23

Glory be to JEHOVAH the most high God, who is revealing all the secret of the Devil through his promises fulfilled! Isaiah 54:17