MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s3/images/ObamaMuttley.gif[/img]
Are you pschic?
Or you see me in your crystall ball looking scared ni, hmm?
Have you not heard of 2 Timothy 1:7's "For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." ni?

Ecclesia or ekklesia, thats the church for your sake, is the bride of Christ, and Jesus, fyi mister Youthleader22 sire, wants to present to Himself, ekklesia in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless, but unfortunately, wherever God, erects a house of worship and/or prayer, the Devil, in no time, quickly builds a chapel always there.

There used to be one poster like this, but now long gone, who behaves like a "jawando" goat that turns up on threads without a rope string on. I hope you arent trying to adopt this poster's style, hmm?

Youthleader22:
You just ended up saying nonsense. I don’t even understand a word you said. Is your religion affecting your brain?

desiredhome:

Is there no such a time in your Church/Churches where your pastor call out those looking for job to come out for prayers? comparing the number of people that comes out and your claim that all of your members are rich tells how you've been brainwashed.

Ranchhoddas:
Find somewhere sit down abeg.

genkins:

Unreasonable sentiments. U must be a girl teenager because a man cannot reply me like this

shadeyinka:

scholar in quote!

I believe the words of Allah in the Qur'an are unambiguous and easy to understand. Allah's words here is similar to the report in Hadith by Abu Dawood Book 38, 4434. Where Jews come to Mohammad for Judgement in their own cases where the Torah was clear

Now hear what the almighty Allah said:
Q 5:43
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers

Did Allah say While the Torah was lost!?


See how a lying spirit has possessed you.

Oldest Arabic Torah!?
Why did you conveniently omit the Hebrew or Aramaic Torah? Taqiya!?
Is it by force to lie. Was the Torah originally in Arabic?

Even the Hadith I quoted for you show that your master Mohammed know the truth even though he couldn't read neither Hebrew not Arabic scripts.

Why do you like hiding under a pretext that information about Islam is scarce to all except Muslims

Abu Dawood Book 38, 4434
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.
He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you...... Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted.


See how your lies and misinformation is exposed by two simple Islamic texts. Very soon now you'll be saying it's a weak Hadith or the Quranic passage has been abrogated!
SMH

Find another lie.
When did the Torah get lost and how?

AntiChristian:


I asked one question which you failed to answer! Where is the Torah and Injeel right now? The original copies!

Expert17:


U must be a Baby girl with an empty brain

shadeyinka:

I laugh at you. You said the Torah, Zabur and Injeel are lost. I praised you for a good answer and then asked you to state
1. When they got lost?
2. How they got lost?
Your argument was that they were lost before Mohammed and that an Arabic version was created in 867AD. I showed you with evidence that you have been taught a lie.

shadeyinka:

And hear how illogical your supposed question is!
Can you ask the same question of the Qur'an and make any sense!?
At least we know "what happened to the Qur'an" (referring to your phrasing)
1. The ones on bark of trees, twigs are non existent today
2. Aisha says that a tame sheep ate part of it
3. The men who memorized the Qur'an were almost completely killed during the several battles they fought
4. Caliph Uthman burnt the remaining existing Qur'an and a new authorized and revised version was used to replace the burnt copies.
5. We know that the Qur'an was revealed in 7 (arabic)different dialects. These are all lost thanks to Uthman.

AntiChristian:

I will keep mentioning that you should prove that they are not lost. The original manuscript of the Torah that Moses knew is not in existence anywhere in the world. Christians only have the works of copyists and those who wrote from hearsays!

AntiChristian:

Which lie was I taught? The dates are available online. The oldest Arabic Torah was dated as given! And the Prophet died earlier than that Book. So how is this a lie. I think you are the liar here. I claim a Book is Lost. Prove it by showing the Book is available! And stop asking unrelated questions!

AntiChristian:

The Torah you even proved in the Hadith is no where in existence again.

AntiChristian:

The Power of Memory
1. The Caliph Uthman you mentioned was an Hafidh (a memoriser of the Qur'an)
2. Zayd ibn Thaabit ( who was the compiler of the Qur'an) was also an Hafidh.
3. So all those bark of trees, twigs, etc. were the hard copy available at that time.
4. In your 3 above you said "they were almost completely killed" but not completely killed right? Do you have the figure of how many were killed and how many remained?

And why do you think millions still memorise the Qu'ran till this day? Which other scripture was memorised this way? The Injeel? The Torah? The Zaboor?

Rashduct4luv thrashed this below but you lovers of falsehood no go gree!
https://www.nairaland.com/5569177/wrote-quraan-how-it-put

shadeyinka:

I wish you answer the same question for the Qur'an. Your argument is like "since the original handwritten manuscript of a publisher is not available, it can only mean that the printed texts are fabricated". I have shown you what happened to the original text of the Qur'an.

shadeyinka:

It seems you don't get it. The Jews don't use the Arabic translation of the Torah. They use the Hebrew version. The oldest copy of the Tanakh in Hebrew and Aramaic dates from the 10th century BC. This will place it at at least 1000 years before Mohammed was born.

Your lie is to insist on an Arabic translation as a proof when you know that the Torah was not "revealed" in Arabic. It's like saying the English Bible is dated at 1494, therefore since Mohamed didn't read it, the bible must be false. Such is your lies.

shadeyinka:

I have simply tried to jog your intellect to find the date of corruption of the earlier revealed scriptures since at the Time of Mohammed, they were still "uncorrupted".

You don't get it! You have to provide proof of the corruptions of the earlier revealed scriptures by stating the dates, the methods and the motive. Otherwise, you are just reciting nursery rhymes and conjectures. Even your prophet will be ashamed of your lies.

shadeyinka:

You've said nothing but repeat yourself

1. Are the scripts on bark of trees, twigs existent today?
2. Did Aisha not say that a tame sheep ate part of the Qur'an?
3. Were men who memorized the Qur'an not almost completely killed during the several battles they fought?
4. Did Caliph Uthman not burn the remaining existing Qur'an and a new authorized and revised version was used to replace the burnt copies?
5. Is the Qur'an not revealed in 7 different arabic dialects. ? Where are the remaining dialects?

[s]All you need to say is that the five assertions above are all false. [/s]QED

AntiChristian:


There is evidence that the companions of the Prophet who knew the Qur'an by heart compiled the Qur'an by comparing what they have memorized with what is written on barks of trees, etc. The Qur'an then compiled is the first complete manuscript of the Qur'an. The leaves, twigs, etc can't be expected to be preserved.

On the other hand, no two manuscript of the Torah is the same! Can you tell us why no two manuscript of the old/new testament is the same?

AntiChristian:

The Hadith you quoted previously stated that the Prophet said he believed in the Torah which was translated to Arabic and was not in Hebrew!
Jews in the Prophets era & setting use the Arabic Torah and you can't prove otherwise. This Arabic version does not exist today!

The oldest Arabic Torah as far as I know is called Mt. Sinai Arabic Codex 151, Which was created in AD 867!

The Prophet died around 632 AD!

AntiChristian:

Corruption will come with much copying/ writing from hearsays as is found in the Bible. I don't need to trace when your scripture got corrupted since the scripture had lapse its use! The Injeel and Torah had been corrupted before Muhammad. You can go and research the date!

The Torah was for the People of Moses!
The Injeel was for the people of Israel
The Zaboor is for the people of David.

We believe in them as revelations from the creator of the universe to these people.
The ways in which the Children of Israel tampered with the Tawraat and Injeel include the following:
Changing, Omitting, Adding things and attributing to Allaah words that He did not say and Misinterpreting the words of Allaah.

AntiChristian:

1. They do not exist but the complete Qur'an compiled from them exists.
2. This hadith is weak.
3. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Zaid Ibn Thabit and a host of other Sahabahs were alive!
4. He burnt the Qur'an that deviated from the true recitation of the Qur'an!

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4988) from Anas ibn Maalik that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan came to ‘Uthmaan at the time when the people of Shaam (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. Hudhayfah was alarmed by their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan, so he said to 'Uthmaan, "O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! Save this nation before they dispute about the Book (Qur’aan) as the Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthmaan sent a message to Hafsah saying, "Send us the manuscript of the Qur’aan so that we may make copies of the Mus-haf and we will return the manuscript to you."
Hafsah sent it to 'Uthmaan. Then 'Uthmaan ordered Zayd ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa’eed ibn al-‘Aas and ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haarith ibn Hishaam to copy out the manuscripts. 'Uthmaan said to the three men who were from Quraysh (the tribe of which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a member), “In case you disagree with Zayd ibn Thaabit on any point in the Qur’aan, then write it in the dialect of Quraysh, for the Qur’aan was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthmaan returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah.
'Uthmaan sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'aanic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

5. Yes it was. The Dialects are available to scholars and students of knowledge of Islam.

shadeyinka:

First explain why Uthman had to destroy Quranic codex in variance with his own copy. Don't forget that this Qur'anic codex were by Hafis by several. What evidence is there to proof that Uthmans codex is flawless?

shadeyinka:

See your quote and tell me you aren't contradicting yourself

shadeyinka:

You've gone back to memorization mode. Repeating yourself doesn't change the fact that Quran's at variance with the Uthmans version existed. You think because evidence was tampered with becomes synonymous with no evidence!

shadeyinka:

If there was no evidence of tampering, alterations, addition, substraction and modifications of the Qur'an "given to Mohammad," why should Uthman destroy them?

shadeyinka:

We all know that Hafsah wasn't among the best reciter of the Qur'an. How come it's her codex that was used?
1. So, you know that the original codex of the Qur'an did not exist. How come you ask about the whereabout of the original Torah?
Why?
Frying pan calling kettle black!?
2. Weak Hadith!?
As if it was the Christians who wrote and compiled it for you. Sorry, the fact that it is embarrassing to you doesn't make it weak.
3. Even when Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Zaid Ibn Thabit and a host of other Sahabahs were alive, all their codecs were rejected for that from Hafsa!
How come, they differ in what was rendered and what was recited?
4. Uthman burnt every Arabic Qur'an that didn't agree with his own version. That is the truth.
Your argument is extremely weak!
5. The Dialects are available to scholars and students of knowledge of Islam?
You know that this is a lie. Hadiths tell us how the 7 dialects were revealed/recited. Where are the other dialects?
Save the Qureish dialect, Did Uthman accidentally burn them (the words of Allah) too?

You see why Islamic Allah appears to be a tribal God?

AntiChristian:


I have stated this in the hadith before. Now you'll blame me of repeating myself. Stop the lies. Which Quranic codex where by hafidh?

AntiChristian:

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4988) from Anas ibn Maalik that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan came to ‘Uthmaan at the time when the people of Shaam (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. Hudhayfah was alarmed by their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan, so he said to 'Uthmaan, "O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! Save this nation before they dispute about the Book (Qur’aan) as the Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthmaan sent a message to Hafsah saying, "Send us the manuscript of the Qur’aan so that we may make copies of the Mus-haf and we will return the manuscript to you."
Hafsah sent it to 'Uthmaan. Then 'Uthmaan ordered Zayd ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa’eed ibn al-‘Aas and ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haarith ibn Hishaam to copy out the manuscripts. 'Uthmaan said to the three men who were from Quraysh (the tribe of which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a member), “In case you disagree with Zayd ibn Thaabit on any point in the Qur’aan, then write it in the dialect of Quraysh, for the Qur’aan was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthmaan returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah.
'Uthmaan sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'aanic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

It is flawless because it was not a new manuscript. It was the Qur'an Abu Bakr and Umar used before him.

AntiChristian:

I am not. There is no Arabic Torah that can be traced to the time of Muhammad. Jews in Medina won't have used a Hebrew Torah but an Arabic version!

AntiChristian:

I think you need to read the Hadith above again!
The Hadith above solves your doubt if you can only understand it
..

You don't even understand the subject of the matter at all!
Memorisation and recitation are two different things! Hafsah was the daughter of Umar the second Caliph after Abu Bakr the first. It was Abu Bakr who ordered Zaid Ibn Thabit to compile the Qur'an from parchment, twigs, etc after some memorisers were killed.

After this compilation the Qur'an was first with Abu Bakr till he died. Then with Umar till He died. Then with Umar's daughter Hafsah!

It was this Qur'an Uthman requested for in the Hadith that was written in multiples and all other copies and fragments were destroyed!

shadeyinka:

Hafis/Hafiz (people who memorized the Qur'an as of the time of Mohammed). You will expect that there were many Hafiz in those days not just 5,6 or 7 people. Each one of them could have "faithfully" put down the Qur'an. This explains why there were many codex and variants of the quran.

But, these were all discountenanced to create a government approved version of the Qur'an.

shadeyinka:

We are saying the same thing. Hafsah's copy was chosen even though there were other Hafis who had memorized the Qur'an.
This is called destroying evidence!

shadeyinka:

It's just like me insisting that the Qur'an used in the mosque in western nigeria must be Yoruba. But since you are bent on lies, when was the first Arabic translation of the Torah made?
Was it not about 200 years after the death of Mohammed?

shadeyinka:
You have to invent a lie even when it contradicts your earlier position. SMH!

shadeyinka:

See how you are struggling to defend the fact that many different Quran's were available but thanks to Uthman who solved the problem by destroying the other copies and introducing the government approved version. And since those copies were destroyed, Muslims can say they never even existed unlike the Jews and Christians who didn't destroy theirs.
SMH!
Those other destroyed copies were by several Hafiz who also had memorized the Qur'an.

shadeyinka:

Even after the compilation of the Qur'an, we still have evidences of omittion.
Let's see the evidence of the good works by Uthman:

1. It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

shadeyinka:

2. Ubayy ibn Ka'b is said to have recalled a time when Suratul-Ahzab (the thirty-third Surah) once was the same length as Suratul-Baqarah (the second Surah), which means it must have had at least two hundred verses not found in its text today (Al-Baihaqi, As-Sunan al-Kubra, Vol. 8, p.211).

shadeyinka:

3. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust". ( Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p.501).

shadeyinka:

Can you see that Uthman did a good job. If he had left those other copies, people would have been able to proof or disprove that. Uthman deliberately destroyed evidence! It's nothing to be proud of.

I rest my case because you'll go about repeating what you've said before to try and defend the indefensible!

DarkJeddi:


I pay my taxes and it is only fair for the church to pay taxes from money earned..

Whatever that tax is being used for is secondary to the discussion..

And if Mosques earn money they should pay their taxes too..

Stop being clever by half..

Luckysbab:


How foolish!

So the politicians stealing the national cake to finance these churches should not be looked into?

Or does tithing exclude stolen funds?

FIRDAUS3:



Remember to quote your brother GEJ, those churches he built for Catholics during his regime
.........
.........
When the governments regain her gumption nobody will tell them how to tax religious body

PrecisionFx:


Churches should be heavily taxed because they have converted the scheme into a business where they build houses for rent with church money, build schools that even members cannot afford, etc.

futurism:


Catholic churches brought more developments to any society than pentecostals. You can take that to the bank. Both are church. Chew on that.

femi4:
And it was done by building Churches into area where Churches are already available there

AntiChristian:


Spread the gospel abi spread your own form of the gospel?

CodeTemplar:
Did I put gun on your head to spread my own gospel? The gospel of Jesus was meant.

CodeTemplar:
The mode of planting the churches are very transparent and simple.
They openly ask in services in assemblies around the world for anyone who desires a church to be planted in any remote area they know or feel needs or lacks one. Just attend any Winners branch for 3 three weeks, I am sure you will see first hand how it is done.

Amujale:
How about he does something great for once in his life.

How about building 20,000 institutions that teach African history and self determination 24/7 365days of the year.

These are some of the things that Oyedapo could engage in if he really wants to change for the better.

MuttleyLaff:

There is nothing like covenant prosperity principles, as taught by Oyedepo. It is a sham, all na wash. Please Ranchhoddas, tell me what director or CEO of any company has Oyedepo ever being, lol?

My guy, abeggy, no one is shifting any goal post anywhere, the truth be told, Oyedepo is prospering on the back of the sweat, tears, blood and guts of suckers, dangling a carrot, tied to a stick, and stretched out in from of them, lol. It is Oyedepo plc, that is prospering, and if we are not going to deceive ourselves Ranchhoddas, we would admit that not even up to 5-10% of Winners Chapel's congregation are really and truly prospering. That percentage is me, just being kind and generous

So what, if using uninterrupted power since 1989. It only indicates, Oyedepo is a good at managing and/or using other people's resources so far there's is personal and/or lucrative financial benefit in it for him.

Openbusiness:
Oga what is your evil Government prospering on, they drive the most expensive cars, live in palatial properties, spend like their floors are paved of gold, have servants like Slave merchants, live in absolute opulence and wealth like emperors, so tell me what are they prospering on, are they prospering on the back of the sweat, tears, blood, guts, pain, victimization, inheritance and common wealth resources of Nigerians? People who reason like you are why this country is in bondage since independence, AND WE NEVER GOT INDEPENDENCE, we just exchanged smaller colonial chains of white colonial masters with the bigger chains of slavery by your FG.

GlassDoc:
Not all Nigerians are in love with their oppressors... Some just need the kind of "push" that a Sowore promises. There is nothing to love about the present crop of leaders/rulers in Nigeria.

MuttleyLaff:
"There is nothing that comes from above, that the earth cannot take. All these tactics, that there are hidden games, you dont know about and cant fight, are successfully being used to emasculate and undermine the aspirations of any with visions of seeing or working for, a better Nigeria, on its feet and at full potential

... the journey of a thousand miles began with the first step of educating all the people in Nigeria who are entitled to vote in the election and/or sensitising PVC carrying voters that they have no business of choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Youths can make can make a difference of the outcome of the 2019 February 16th election because more than 60% of Nigeria's population are aged below 25. With political fortitude and if no compromises, the right candidate with clear cut and spelled out digital ideas of how to transform the the country, alleviate poverty, turn the country into a construction site thereby give rise to mass employment, tackle the epileptic power supply problem with 21st century innovative solution etcetera will win but then, if people prefer another 4 years of between the devil and the deep blue sea, well, what more I can say than just, as you lay your bed ...

Who has bewitched us Nigeria?
The elitists and the corruptible biased media outlets who are all indifferent to the hardship, throngs of sufferring, woes and the unfortunate conditions of the common man, have seared their conscience and sold the country and its citizenry down the river.

Nigeria is at a crossroads, at an opportunity watershed moment, where and when we can take our destiny into our own hands, but the youths that ought to know better, the youths that should see visions, arent seeing nada, but, for crumbs on the table and floor, they have camped tent with the elitists and corruptible elements shafting the whole nation. They are pitching tents with those who once they get in power again, will turn blind eyes to acts of stealing the country blind"
- Politics / Re: Ogboru The APC Governorship Candidate Buhari Called 'APC Presidential Candidate' by MuttleyLaff: 7:17am On Jan 18

As you lay your bed, lie in it. I didnt finish my sentence in the above red inverted commas with the "lie in it" last three words before, I have now. Enjoy the change. Mtcheew.

Check my Nairaland Profile portal. Free Sowore now!

MuttleyLaff:
Openbusiness, prove me wrong in 2023, that there is nothing to love about the present crop of leaders/rulers in Nigeria

MuttleyLaff:
There is a Joseph de Maistre saying that goes like this: "Every nation gets the government it deserves" meaning that a nation gets the leaders and/or government it's deserves

People who reason like you, dont want to acknowledge that the evil government, is a reflection of the community, village, town, city, society, country, a reflection of YOU!

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