Daejoyoung:

They were told to sacrifice bulls and goats as a sign of the messaiah who would come like a lamb.

Where?.. I need the quote in the old testament.. Please can you oblige me..

sonmvayina:


But there is just no time and no where that says he was sending his son as a sacrifice for sins.. Human sacrifice is an abomination to him...

So where did it come from? Where did the Romans get the idea from?.. Definitely not the old testament..

What was the purpose of those sacrifices? why sacrifice innocent animals for human sin in the first place? Why was Abraham tested with the sacrifice of his only son isaac? why such a test? l told you before, the new testament is very much like the old testament, just an evolution in Jewish thinking, with more matured laws.

sonmvayina:


Where?.. I need the quote in the old testament.. Please can you oblige me..

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord’s commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them, 3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the Lord for a sin offering. 4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the Lord and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the Lord. 5 And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it into the tent of meeting.

Leviticus 4v1-5



13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally2 and ithe thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the Lord’s commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,3 14 jwhen the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting. 15 And the elders of the congregation kshall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the Lord, and the bull shall be killed before the Lord.

Leviticus 4v13-15

Daejoyoung:

What was the purpose of those sacrifices? why sacrifice innocent animals for human sin in the first place? Why was Abraham tested with the sacrifice of his only son isaac? why such a test? l told you before, the new testament is very much like the old testament, just an evolution in Jewish thinking, with more matured laws.

But the Jews are saying, it's got nothing to do with them.. That the God of the new testament is not their God.. That at no time did God order a human sacrifice for sin remission... He specifically told them in his 10 commandment.. "thou shall not kill".. Why should he order a human sacrifice?.. It does not just make sense to me..

Daejoyoung:


And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord’s commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them, 3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the Lord for a sin offering. 4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the Lord and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the Lord. 5 And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it into the tent of meeting.

Leviticus 4v1-5

Exactly.. Those where for sins committed unintentionally.. And it must be brought to a priest, it is usually an animal.. NEVER a human being and never done by Roman soldiers

sonmvayina:


Exactly.. Those where for sins committed unintentionally.. And it must be brought to a priest, it is usually an animal.. NEVER a human being and never done by Roman soldiers

What was the purpose of such a sacrifice? l thought you said earlier that God only needed repentance, and you challenged me to show you a passage where he commanded animal sacrifices?

sonmvayina:


But the Jews are saying, it's got nothing to do with them.. That the God of the new testament is not their God.. That at no time did God order a human sacrifice for sin remission... He specifically told them in his 10 commandment.. "thou shall not kill".. Why should he order a human sacrifice?.. It does not just make sense to me..

lt doesn't matter what the jews say, the jews would say all these because they have been persecuted by European Christians for such a long time. They should give clear proof of what they say.

Daejoyoung:

lt doesn't matter what the jews say, the jews would say all these because they have been persecuted by European Christians for such a long time. They should give clear proof of what they say.

They have already given that... They follow the Torah as given to them by Moses..

Daejoyoung:

What was the purpose of such a sacrifice? l thought you said earlier that God only needed repentance, and you challenged me to show you a passage where he commanded animal sacrifices?

For unintentional sin... Not sin you commit intentionally.. You must confess and forsake.. Even when animals are sacrificed, you still have to confess and forsake..

A contrite heart you will not spurn..

sonmvayina:


For unintentional sin... Not sin you commit intentionally.. You must confess and forsake.. Even when animals are sacrificed, you still have to confess and forsake..

A contrite heart you will not spurn..

lt's thesame thing with jesus sacrifice for sins, you must confess and forsake your sins as well. You write as though you have not read any book of the new testament at all, because you seem to be ignorant of what you criticize.
In the book of Acts after peter preached to the crowd, he told them to confess their sins and repent. This is littered all over the writings of the Christian new testament bible, so l don't know what you are on about.

BlueAngel444:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 10:14-15

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

I have used the places you got those verses you quoted to tell you that your answers are wrong, hope you understand.

To a large extent the reason why you want to read the bible determines what you see. If you only read the bible so that you can argue with people uncessarily while souls are perishing, you will surely have your reward. Let your conscience judge you to study with a better mindset.

BlueAngel444:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 10:14-15

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

I have used the places you got those verses you quoted to tell you that your answers are wrong, hope you understand.

To a large extent the reason why you want to read the bible determines what you see. If you only read the bible so that you can argue with people uncessarily while souls are perishing, you will surely have your reward. Let your conscience judge you to study with a better mindset.

Daejoyoung:

lt's thesame thing with jesus sacrifice for sins, you must confess and forsake your sins as well. You write as though you have not read any book of the new testament at all, because you seem to be ignorant of what you criticize.
In the book of Acts after peter preached to the crowd, he told them to confess their sins and repent. This is littered all over the writings of the Christian new testament bible, so l don't know what you are on about.

You are not following.. There was never any need for Jesus, never... God already provided a solution to the problem of sin..
The idea of Jesus coming to die for sins does not originate from God at all.. It is from pagan Rome, they just added it at the end of the Jewish scriptures as a mockery against God and to deceive you...

sonmvayina:


You are not following.. There was never any need for Jesus, never... God already provided a solution to the problem of sin..
The idea of Jesus coming to die for sins does not originate from God at all.. It is from pagan Rome, they just added it at the end of the Jewish scriptures as a mockery against God and to deceive you...

What solution did God provide for the problem of sin? lt appears he provided more than one solution, so why do you cling unto only one of the solutions?
From the book of leviticus l quoted to you, it seems that God had another kind of solution as well for unintentional sins, for the priest and for the community. This is what l am discussing about but you keep drifting off the main topic.

Daejoyoung:

What solution did God provide for the problem of sin? lt appears he provided more than one solution, so why do you cling unto only one of the solutions?
From the book of leviticus l quoted to you, it seems that God had another kind of solution as well for unintentional sins, for the priest and for the community. This is what l am discussing about but you keep drifting off the main topic.

If you are quite familiar with the story of job, when job learns of the party that his children has done he goes and make sacrifice for them, because he thought that they might have committed sin without knowing it..
God approved of animal sacrifices for unintentional sins, which has to be a goat less than 1 year old, and without blemish.. God never approved any human sacrifice, it is an abomination to him.. He specifically warned the Jews "thou shall not kill"..
When the Jews where 40 years in the wilderness without temple or priest.. And no one to offer sacrifice.. Did God not forgive those who repented.. He did..
All God is after is a genuine and sincere repentance.. No one can do that for you.. It is your spirit that is tainted and needs to be cleansed.. And God is saying.. Confess and forsake, I will forgive... He does not require the death of anyone before that is going to happen.

There is no need for the Jesus story.. No need..

Why is it difficult for you to understand?.. It was never God's plan, no prophet prophesied about it.. God never said to believe in the death of the messaiah to be saved.. The Messiah is a man like you and me.. From the root of David through Solomon.. Not a demi God

sonmvayina:


If you are quite familiar with the story of job, when job learns of the party that his children has done he goes and make sacrifice for them, because he thought that they might have committed sin without knowing it..
God approved of animal sacrifices for unintentional sins, which has to be a goat less than 1 year old, and without blemish.. God never approved any human sacrifice, it is an abomination to him.. He specifically warned the Jews "thou shall not kill"..
When the Jews where 40 years in the wilderness without temple or priest.. And no one to offer sacrifice.. Did God not forgive those who repented.. He did..
All God is after is a genuine and sincere repentance.. No one can do that for you.. It is your spirit that is tainted and needs to be cleansed.. And God is saying.. Confess and forsake, I will forgive... He does not require the death of anyone before that is going to happen.

There is no need for the Jesus story.. No need..

Why is it difficult for you to understand?.. It was never God's plan, no prophet prophesied about it.. God never said to believe in the death of the messaiah to be saved.. The Messiah is a man like you and me.. From the root of David through Solomon.. Not a demi God

The jesus story is the story of the people of lsrael. What was the reason God ordered the children of Israel to spill the blood of the lamb on the day of passover ( a day marking the salvation of Israel from slavery and bondage)? The death of jesus is not human sacrifice to appease God, any more than the death of a king for his people or a soilder for the salvation of his people, was a sacrifice to God. It was simply a show of love and determination on the part of jesus for his people that was a sweet smelling sacrifice to God, not the death itself.
You keep saying human sacrifice, is the death of the suffering servant in Isaiah 53( whoever that is) a human sacrifice to God, or a show of faith and love?

Daejoyoung:

The jesus story is the story of the people of lsrael. What was the reason God ordered the children of Israel to spill the blood of the lamb on the day of passover ( a day marking the salvation of Israel from slavery and bondage)? The death of jesus is not human sacrifice to appease God, any more than the death of a king for his people or a soilder for the salvation of his people, was a sacrifice to God. It was simply a show of love and determination on the part of jesus for his people that was a sweet smelling sacrifice to God, not the death itself.
You keep saying human sacrifice, is the death of the suffering servant in Isaiah 53( whoever that is) a human sacrifice to God, or a show of faith and love?

The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel..God already told you that in 41:7-9..

Whose idea was it for Jesus to come?.. If you say God.. Show me where he initiated such in the old testament..

[quote author=sonmvayina post=87888791]

If you are quite familiar with the story of job, when job learns of the party that his children has done he goes and make sacrifice for them, because he thought that they might have committed sin without knowing it..
God approved of animal sacrifices for unintentional sins, which has to be a goat less than 1 year old, and without blemish.. God never approved any human sacrifice, it is an abomination to him

..
My question remains...What is the purpose of sacrifice at all? whether human or animal?

Why is it difficult for you to understand?.. It was never God's plan, no prophet prophesied about it.. God never said to believe in the death of the messaiah to be saved.. The Messiah is a man like you and me.. From the root of David through Solomon.. Not a demi God

lf so, then why did God order a lamb to be killed as a sign for the deliverance and formation of the nation lsrael? Why did they continually celebrate that feast of the passover lamb to mark their salvation? why sacrifice anything at all?

sonmvayina:


The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel..God already told you that in 41:7-9..

Whose idea was it for Jesus to come?.. If you say God.. Show me where he initiated such in the old testament..

lf the suffering servant is Israel, then isn't that more cruel of God to make the entire nation of lsrael a sacrifice for the world?

[quote author=Daejoyoung post=87890245][/quote]

Wrong premise.. The blood the Jews sprinkled was not a sign of salvation..

Daejoyoung:

lf the suffering servant is Israel, then isn't that more cruel of God to make the entire nation of lsrael a sacrifice for the world?

The servant is suffering because of what is done to him... Isaiah 53 is what the Kings of the earth will say, when they discover that the Jews has been right all along..

sonmvayina:


The servant is suffering because of what is done to him... Isaiah 53 is what the Kings of the earth will say, when they discover that the Jews has been right all along..

That is what l'm saying, you say the jews are the suffering servants, so that would mean according to that passage, that the lord laid on the jews the iniquity of us all, and it pleased the lord to bruise the Jews and make their souls an offering for sins. So this is also the handiwork of the lord. So the question is: Why is the lord offering a whole group of people as an offering for sin?

sonmvayina:


Wrong premise.. The blood the Jews sprinkled was not a sign of salvation..

What was it for?

[quote author=sonmvayina post=87890223]

The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel..God already told you that in 41:7-9..

lf that is true, then who is the servant of lsaiah 49v6? Read lsaiah 49 carefully.

Daejoyoung:

That is what l'm saying, you say the jews are the suffering servants, so that would mean according to that passage, that the lord laid on the jews the iniquity of us all, and it pleased the lord to bruise the Jews and make their souls an offering for sins. So this is also the handiwork of the lord. So the question is: Why is the lord offering a whole group of people as an offering for sin?

It would not hurt to do a research..

https://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html?mobile=yes

sonmvayina:


It would not hurt to do a research..

https://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html?mobile=yes

ok, so the nations are simply speaking of the jews here from their perspective, so were they wrong in their assertions? for instance in this excerpt from your link:

God desired to oppress” the Jewish people, in order to inspire them to return to Torah observance. If the Jews would only "acknowledge guilt," they would see their "offspring and live long days." This refers to the Messianic era when all Jews will return to Torah observance.

So answer me, was it God who really bruised and oppressed the jewish people, or the nations of the world were just talking nonsense here?

Also are you telling me the jews had no guilt in their mouth, and had done no crime? or the nations were also wrong here?

This your interpretation makes no sense to me, the passage just fits jesus more especially in the context of lsaiah 49. Anyway if this is what you and your fellow jews can come up with as an explanation for this passage, then l have nothing to say. l however, understand that Jews would come up with anything to reject jesus because of their persecution in the hands of Europeans over the years.

Daejoyoung:

ok, so the nations are simply speaking of the jews here from their perspective, so were they wrong in their assertions? for instance in this excerpt from your link:

God desired to oppress” the Jewish people, in order to inspire them to return to Torah observance. If the Jews would only "acknowledge guilt," they would see their "offspring and live long days." This refers to the Messianic era when all Jews will return to Torah observance.

So answer me, was it God who really bruised and oppressed the jewish people, or the nations of the world were just talking nonsense here?

Also are you telling me the jews had no guilt in their mouth, and had done no crime? or the nations were also wrong here?

This your interpretation makes no sense to me, the passage just fits jesus more especially in the context of lsaiah 49. Anyway if this is what you and your fellow jews can come up with as an explanation for this passage, then l have nothing to say. l however, understand that Jews would come up with anything to reject jesus because of their persecution in the hands of Europeans over the years.

Lol.. I am not Jewish.. I am from delta state.. We have our own religion.. I am not a slave, only slaves worship their masters God...

Jesus and spiderman or Harry Potter mean same thing to me

Preciousgirl:
Are there people who are predestined to hell? Are there people who are predestined for eternal life? Who initiates salvation in a man? The man first or God? Can one lose his salvation? Thanks a lot

Nobody is predestined to either hell or heaven. Your choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ determines your eternal destination.

God first initiates it, then man has to respond. God wants everyone to be saved, so the response of man is very important.

You can lose your salvation. But not by committing sin, you lose your salvation by rejecting Christ in any way whatsoever.

prekumohtim:


To a large extent the reason why you want to read the bible determines what you see. If you only read the bible so that you can argue with people uncessarily while souls are perishing, you will surely have your reward. Let your conscience judge you to study with a better mindset.

Are you trying to dodge the Bible verses he qouted?

Nobody knows everything, there's no harm in admitting it.

Wommack:



Are you trying to dodge the Bible verses he qouted?

Nobody knows everything, there's no harm in admitting it.

I have not come here to argue with any of you endlessly. I run from uncessary argument. I only answered the questions the lady asked. But if you can't spot the errors on what he just quoted , it will be too bad. Read the bible yourself, compare what he just wrote to mine and to the lady's question. Help yourself out

prekumohtim:


I have not come here to argue with any of you endlessly. I run from uncessary argument. I only answered the questions the lady asked. But if you can't spot the errors on what he just quoted , it will be too bad. Read the bible yourself, compare what he just wrote to mine and to the lady's question. Help yourself out

I also didn't come here for unnecessary arguments but when someone quotes scriptures that negates your points, you address them. What you basically did was systematically dodge the verses he quoted. If you have a better understanding of the verses, you explain it, for the sake of everyone reading your posts. You're not only writing to only one person you know.

Preciousgirl:

1. Are there people who are predestined to hell?
2. Are there people who are predestined for eternal life?
3. Who initiates salvation in a man? The man first or God?
4. Can one lose his salvation?
Thanks a lot

1. Are there people who are predestined to hell?
None is destined for hell except probably the son of perdition who necessarily does not have to be Judas Ischariot
1Tim2:3-4
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2. Are there people who are predestined for eternal life?
Yes!
But these people had been FORKNOWNED by God.
In other words, because of Gods foreknowledge, He knew (from the past) those who had by their choice lived the acceptable life.
Rom8:28-29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.…

A Foreknowledge came before predestination

3. Who initiates salvation in a man?
God initiated it
Rom5:8
8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

However, it is a saved persons duty to propagate the GOODNEWS of God for salvation of men.
The Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin (when he responds to the truth of his spirit)

4. Can one lose his salvation?
Ordinarily NO!
Except for the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
If a person looses his salvation, it is impossible to regain it again.
Heb6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.…

The only problem is the "so called Christians" who have assumed that they are born again because they recited the sinners prayer. These are Tares in the midst of wheat. They look every inch like born again Christians but they are not. These have never become new creatures, they are just religious old natures.

If GOD is truly Omniscient, can He make a mistake in His Foreknowledge?

If you have any other question, please feel very free to ask