TAO11:


By proof, I'm sure you're not ridiculously referring to a video footage of burial procession from Benin.

Anyways, I'm already doing that with samuk. Don't insult his intelligence by assuming he is not competent to carry on with me.

Or you may tell him publicly here to pass on the baton to you so I can face you squarely as soon as he agrees to.

Moreover, you're still owing me a homework submission on this same burial issue. It's about 7 months overdue.

Let me point out some misconceptions

1. The Orun Oba Ado head claim was completely made up. It was ingenious, I admit, because Ado is definitely a Yoruba word for Benin (Edo). Unfortunately, it is simply not grounded in facts.
Igbo, for example, apart from being a word for forest or bush, is coincidentally the word for an ethnic group or nation that happens to be not too far from the Yoruba and also from the same language family. With the trend that the Ooni of Ife has advocated with regard to Orun Oba Ado, I wonder if he or his descendants will later start complaining if Igbo scholars at some later time exploit the abundance of the word Igbo (forest, bush, etc.) in ancient Yoruba sites, including Ife (Igbo Obameri, for an example of an Ife site) to start claiming that they (Igbos) laid these foundations in ancient times? See how distortion can backfire?

2. Egharevba introduced the claim that Eweka I ordered that upon his death his remains should be taken to Ife and that this was repeated in every third reign after him. There was never any reference to a head. The after death decapitation is precisely the abomination that makes the claim even sillier.
Orun Oba Ado, which supposedly means the spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin, is among the earliest – actually, the earliest – significant archaeological site in Ife, with radiocarbon dates going back to the 6th century AD, from one of Frank Willett’s numerous archaeological excavations in Ife (see 1968. Radiocarbon Dates, WAAN, IX, 73. and 1969. New Radiocarbon Dates for Ife, WAAN, XI, both by Frank Willett. Or, see Archaeology in Nigeria(1969) by Thurstan Shaw if you can’t access those articles.) The only comparable significant archaeological features of Ife are the ancient walls also dated to the 6th century. So 6th century Ife had earthen walls/ramparts and an important foundational site that was already or was to become the "spiritual domain" of Benin (whether on the initiative of Benin or Ife, doesn't really matter to me)?

So if you actually believe that Orun Oba Ado – the supposed spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin or the "the heaven of the kings of Benin"– which is at the heart of Ife near the Ife palace itself (by this I mean that is occupies a much more central location relative to the archaeological remains of Ife and the walls/ramparts of Ife, as contrasted with Ita Yemoo, for example, which is on the periphery) and is conspicuously close to Opa Oranmiyan, is tied to Benin, surely you can see the implications of this. Backfire #2. Once again, distortion bites the hand that feeds it .

3. You don’t seem to have grasped what a real burial of a king of Benin was like in olden times so let me give it to you in full detail and I hope you can use your immense knowledge of Ifa to divine the point at which the head is taken and enlighten the rest of us:

"Among others, there is in the kingdom of Benin an ancient custom, observed to the present day, that when the king dies, the people all assemble in a large field, in the centre of which is a very deep well, wider at the bottom than at the mouth. They cast the body of the dead king into this well, and all his friends and servants gather round, and those who are judged to have been most dear to and favoured by the king (this includes not a few, as all are anxious for the honour) voluntarily go down and keep him company. When they have done so, the people place a great stone over the mouth of the well, and remain by it day and night. On the second day a few deputies remove the stone, and ask those below what they know, and if any of them have already gone to serve the king; and the reply is, No. On the third day the same question is asked, and someone then replies that so-and-so, mentioning a name, has been the first to go, and so-and-so the second. It is considered highly praiseworthy to be the first, and he is spoken of with the greatest admiration by all the people, and considered happy and blessed. After four or five days all these unfortunate people die. When this is apparent to those above, since none reply to their questions, they inform their new king; who causes a great fire to be lit near the well, where numerous animals are roasted. These are given to the people to eat, and he with great ceremony is declared to be the true king, and takes the oath to govern well." - From the account of a 'Voyage from Lisbona to the island of San Thomé south of the Equator, described by a Portuguese pilot, and sent to his magnificence Count Rimondo della Torre, gentleman of Verona, and translated from the Portuguese into Italian', published in Giovanni Battista Ramusio (1550), and retranslated by Blake (1942), i, pp. 150-1. The account was written in about the year 1540, according to Blake, and 'the author may have been one of the scores of Portuguese pilots who at this time were familiar with the navigation from Lisbon to the island of São Thomé'. - From the book Nigerian Perspectives (2nd ed.) by Thomas Hodgkin

4. “No human remains or artifacts of Benin culture were found in six burials excavated at Arun-Oba-Ado”

The source for this conclusion being Frank Willett’s article in the book The African Iron Age, P. L. SHINNIE, (ed.)

TAO11:

My question to you was: No skulls found implies what??

I'm not sure why you're shying away from giving a direct answer to my question.

Anyways, since you've repeatedly avoided giving a direct answer, I think it's fair if to assume that your answer is as follows:

No skulls found implies no skulls buried.

And that's a false/illogical conclusion.

The conclusion is false/illogical because it assumes that there are no other logical possibilities for why skulls couldn't be found today.

(1) Yes, if skulls weren't buried, then skulls won't be found today.

(2) But also, if skulls were exhumed soon after burial for ascension rites for example, then skulls wont be found today.

While you haven't provided a shred of historical data to support case (1) as the actual scenario, I have historical data refuting case (1), and I also have astounding evidence supporting case (2) as the actual scenario.

Having said that the objective of Willett's excavation of Orun Oba Ado was not particularly to verify skulls or not.

And regarding your video about the wall of Benin, which of my argument so far are you refuting with that video?

Stop the distraction!

If you know what it takes and the process involve in the ancient burials of Obas of Benin, you guys will not come up with that fabrication that their bodies or head was taken all the way to Ife for burial.

Do you know the distance between Benin and Ife by foot to be transporting a decomposing body or head of the Oba of Benin, Benin people earthly God.

The site in question in Ife has been excavated and no human bones found.

Out of the 38 Benin Obas that have joined their ancestors, only 4 were not buried in Benin

1. Oba Ewuare the great, 13th Oba of Benin (1440AD - 1073AD) because he decreed that his body should be taken to his mother's villages of Esi, near Udo.

2. Oba Orhogbua 18th Oba of Benin (about 1550AD - 1575AD), a sailor king who drowned on his way back from the newly founded Eko (Lagos)

3. Oba Akenkpaye, 24th Oba of Benin (about 1675AD-1684AD)
His rebellious chiefs, for abuse of power, corruption, and selfishness, dethroned him. He was banished to his mother's village of Obanosa where he died and was buried.

4. Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi, 36th Oba of Benin (1888AD–1897AD) died and buried in Calabar.

The remaining 34 were all buried in Benin, no head was taken to Ife.

As for the Benin wall, you promised to get back to me but I decided to save you the embarrassment by sharing the link.

TAO11:


By proof, I'm sure you're not ridiculously referring to a video footage of burial procession from Benin.

Anyways, I'm already doing that with samuk. Don't insult his intelligence by assuming he is not competent to carry on with me.

Or you may tell him publicly here to pass on the baton to you so I can face you squarely as soon as he agrees to.

Moreover, you're still owing me a homework submission on this same burial issue. It's about 7 months overdue.

I had already told you it's a lost battle for you before you even began

Benin was known as edo during oba ewuare reign and not during the time of ogiso when edo stepped into ife if any name could be use identify edo people in ife it would be ogodomigodo and not edo which is later
Arhun oba ado is a false conspiracy by tge yorubas to distort edo history

gregyboy:



I had already told you it's a lost battle for you before you even began

Benin was known as edo during oba ewuare reign and not during the time of ogiso when edo stepped into ife if any name could be use identify edo people in ife it would be ogodomigodo and not edo which is later
Arhun oba ado is a false conspiracy by tge yorubas to distort edo history

I'm not sure how Ogiso ties in to my pointi!!

I'm not sure who how Igodomigodo ties in to my point.

And I'm not sure how Edo ties into my point!!

You remain your incoherent and irrelevant self, gregyboy.

Oh, or are you trying to relate all these to the phrase Orun Oba Ado.??

gregyboy:



I had already told you it's a lost battle for you before you even began

Benin was known as edo during oba ewuare reign and not during the time of ogiso when edo stepped into ife if any name could be use identify edo people in ife it would be ogodomigodo and not edo which is later
Arhun oba ado is a false conspiracy by tge yorubas to distort edo history

Good point, Benin was actually known as Igodomigodo when it came into contact with Ife and not Ado which was later derived from Edo, a name given to the kingdom by Oba Ewuare the great in the 1400s.

gregyboy:





Let me point out some misconceptions

[s]1. The Orun Oba Ado head claim was completely made up. It was ingenious, I admit, because Ado is definitely a Yoruba word for Benin (Edo). Unfortunately, it is simply not grounded in facts.
Igbo, for example, apart from being a word for forest or bush, is coincidentally the word for an ethnic group or nation that happens to be not too far from the Yoruba and also from the same language family. With the trend that the Ooni of Ife has advocated with regard to Orun Oba Ado, I wonder if he or his descendants will later start complaining if Igbo scholars at some later time exploit the abundance of the word Igbo (forest, bush, etc.) in ancient Yoruba sites, including Ife (Igbo Obameri, for an example of an Ife site) to start claiming that they (Igbos) laid these foundations in ancient times? See how distortion can backfire?

2. Egharevba introduced the claim that Eweka I ordered that upon his death his remains should be taken to Ife and that this was repeated in every third reign after him. There was never any reference to a head. The after death decapitation is precisely the abomination that makes the claim even sillier.
Orun Oba Ado, which supposedly means the spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin, is among the earliest – actually, the earliest – significant archaeological site in Ife, with radiocarbon dates going back to the 6th century AD, from one of Frank Willett’s numerous archaeological excavations in Ife (see 1968. Radiocarbon Dates, WAAN, IX, 73. and 1969. New Radiocarbon Dates for Ife, WAAN, XI, both by Frank Willett. Or, see Archaeology in Nigeria(1969) by Thurstan Shaw if you can’t access those articles.) The only comparable significant archaeological features of Ife are the ancient walls also dated to the 6th century. So 6th century Ife had earthen walls/ramparts and an important foundational site that was already or was to become the "spiritual domain" of Benin (whether on the initiative of Benin or Ife, doesn't really matter to me)?

So if you actually believe that Orun Oba Ado – the supposed spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin or the "the heaven of the kings of Benin"– which is at the heart of Ife near the Ife palace itself (by this I mean that is occupies a much more central location relative to the archaeological remains of Ife and the walls/ramparts of Ife, as contrasted with Ita Yemoo, for example, which is on the periphery) and is conspicuously close to Opa Oranmiyan, is tied to Benin, surely you can see the implications of this. Backfire #2. Once again, distortion bites the hand that feeds it .

3. You don’t seem to have grasped what a real burial of a king of Benin was like in olden times so let me give it to you in full detail and I hope you can use your immense knowledge of Ifa to divine the point at which the head is taken and enlighten the rest of us:

"Among others, there is in the kingdom of Benin an ancient custom, observed to the present day, that when the king dies, the people all assemble in a large field, in the centre of which is a very deep well, wider at the bottom than at the mouth. They cast the body of the dead king into this well, and all his friends and servants gather round, and those who are judged to have been most dear to and favoured by the king (this includes not a few, as all are anxious for the honour) voluntarily go down and keep him company. When they have done so, the people place a great stone over the mouth of the well, and remain by it day and night. On the second day a few deputies remove the stone, and ask those below what they know, and if any of them have already gone to serve the king; and the reply is, No. On the third day the same question is asked, and someone then replies that so-and-so, mentioning a name, has been the first to go, and so-and-so the second. It is considered highly praiseworthy to be the first, and he is spoken of with the greatest admiration by all the people, and considered happy and blessed. After four or five days all these unfortunate people die. When this is apparent to those above, since none reply to their questions, they inform their new king; who causes a great fire to be lit near the well, where numerous animals are roasted. These are given to the people to eat, and he with great ceremony is declared to be the true king, and takes the oath to govern well." - From the account of a 'Voyage from Lisbona to the island of San Thomé south of the Equator, described by a Portuguese pilot, and sent to his magnificence Count Rimondo della Torre, gentleman of Verona, and translated from the Portuguese into Italian', published in Giovanni Battista Ramusio (1550), and retranslated by Blake (1942), i, pp. 150-1. The account was written in about the year 1540, according to Blake, and 'the author may have been one of the scores of Portuguese pilots who at this time were familiar with the navigation from Lisbon to the island of São Thomé'. - From the book Nigerian Perspectives (2nd ed.) by Thomas Hodgkin

4. “No human remains or artifacts of Benin culture were found in six burials excavated at Arun-Oba-Ado”

The source for this conclusion being Frank Willett’s article in the book The African Iron Age, P. L. SHINNIE, (ed.)[/s]

Lord of copy and paste!

The summary of your copy and paste is that no skulls were found.

Okay, thank you! Samuk has said that already.

Yet he seem not to have realized how that didn't help his claim until I pointed it out to him.

You are better off lurking in the background watching and reading his comments and following his lead.

He is obviously smarter than gregyboy and ghostwon combined.

TAO11:


I'm not sure how Ogiso ties in to my pointi!!

I'm not sure who how Igodomigodo ties in to my point.

And I'm not sure how Edo ties into my point!!

You remain your incoherent and irrelevant self, gregyboy.

Oh, or are you trying to relate all these to the phrase Orun Oba Ado.??

Don't you think it would have made more sense if the fabricators had simply called that site Oru Oba Igodomigodo because this was the name Benin was known by during the reign of Oba Eweka 1, son of Oranmiyan.

samuk:


Don't you think it would have made more sense if the fabricators had simply called that site Oru Oba Igodomigodo.

Are you wondering why Ado?

Ask and you shall be given.

TAO11:


Are you wondering why Ado?

Ask and you shall be given.

You have nothing say than beating round the bush

samuk:


[s]If you know what it takes and the process involve in the ancient burials of Obas of Benin, you guys will not come up with that fabrication that their bodies or head was taken all the way to Ife for burial.

Do you know the distance between Benin and Ife by foot to be transporting a decomposing body or head of the Oba of Benin, Benin people earthly God.[/s]

The site in question in Ife has been excavated and no human bones found.

Out of the 38 Benin Obas that have joined their ancestors, only 4 were not buried in Benin.

[s]1. Oba Ewuare the great, 13th Oba of Benin (1440AD - 1073AD) because he decreed that his body should be taken to his mother's villages of Esi, near Udo.

2. Oba Orhogbua 18th Oba of Benin (about 1550AD - 1575AD), a sailor king who drowned on his way back from the newly founded Eko (Lagos)

3. Oba Akenkpaye, 24th Oba of Benin (about 1675AD-1684AD)
His rebellious chiefs, for abuse of power, corruption, and selfishness, dethroned him. He was banished to his mother's village of Obanosa where he died and was buried.

4. Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi, 36th Oba of Benin (1888AD–1897AD) died and buried in Calabar.[/s]

The remaining 34 were all buried in Benin, no head was taken to Ife.

As for the Benin wall, you promised to get back to me but I decided to save you the embarrassment by sharing the link.

(1) Regarding your 1st boldened point, you seem to be repeating the same point about no skulls found. Refer to my reply on that which you've fled from without uttering a word.

See: https://www.nairaland.com/5713629/main-reasons-yoruba-not-enlisted/11#88003104

(2) Regarding your 2nd and 3rd boldened point, no historian worth the name has ever said that the bodies of the late Benin Obas were taken to Ife for burial.

Instead, the historical fact is that the their bodies were originally buried in Benin, and then their heads were later exhumed to be buried in Ife.

This is the historical fact, and it is what I am defending regardless of what you've heard from some Nairalanders before.

So, stop being repititive already.

(3) Regarding your 4th boldened point, I wanted to get back to you on what??

You seem to be successful already in achieving your distraction objective on this side point.

The issue here is about the burial, so let's stick to it.

gregyboy:


[s]You have nothing sayu than bitting round the bush[/s]

I have addressed all your points so far.

I need you to point out the contention you have with my replies to your arguments.

Moreover, you have to be direct about whatever contention you've got with Igodomigodo, Ado, Benin, or Edo.

If there's anyone beating about the bush in this regards, it's definitely you.

Cheers!

samuk:


Don't you think it would have made more sense if the fabricators had simply called that site Oru Oba Igodomigodo because this was the name Benin was known by during the reign of Oba Eweka 1, son of Oranmiyan.

I noticed you added a few more lines to your comment.

Anyways, it's Orun not Oru, but that's by the way.

Also, the word Oba and the name Igodomigodo cannot possibly appear on the same line, if you know what that means.

Moreover, provide me your evidence that the kingdom still remained Igodomigodo during the Oba dynasty. Lol.

You may as well argue that Eweka 1 took the title, Ogiso.

Cheers!

samuk:


Don't you think it would have made more sense if the fabricators had simply called that site Oru Oba Igodomigodo because this was the name Benin was known by during the reign of Oba Eweka 1, son of Oranmiyan.

The point is that many places Ìfẹ princes went to in those days were called Ado, Ido, etc (meaning, we establish, we arrive, etc). When Oranmiyan arrived Igodomigodo, The land and the people simply and naturally became Ado to the Ìfẹ/Yorubas. Notwithstanding, Oranmiyan himself called the land 'Ile Ibinu' when leaving the place, and that's where 'Bini, Benin' came from. Although the Igodomigodo people were not initially calling themselves the Oranmiyan given name; the Itsekiris told the Portuguese the name and they corrupted it to what we have today.

TAO11:


I noticed you added a few more lines to your comment.

Anyways, it's Orun not Oru, but that's by the way.

Also, the word Oba and the name Igodomigodo cannot possibly appear on the same line, if you know what that means.

Moreover, provide me your evidence that the kingdom still remained Igodomigodo during the Oba dynasty. Lol.

You may as well argue that Eweka 1 took the title, Ogiso.

Cheers!

Various periods of Benin history.

The people of the east who are now referred to as the Igbos still call Benin and the people of Benin, Idu and this shows a much ealier contact with Benin.

Benin / Edo have gone through various phases in her history and was called different names at different periods.

Idu period

The earliest recorded leader of the Edo people was Pa Idu and in his period, the land and people was referred to as Idu. I am sure some of you would have come in contact with the name Onitsha N' Idu.

There is the Idu shrine in Benin City that all Obas of Benin still go to propitiate the spirit/ancestors of Idu. Pa Idu is remembered is numerous other ways, in names of Streets, areas, people's names and surnames, etc.

Arka period

After the period of Idu was the Arka period, the Urhobos preferred to refer to Benin by this name. There is also the Ogbe-Laka areas of Benin City which existed from this period.

Igodomigodo period

Then the Igodomigodo period, this is the period the Benin came into contact with Ife through the last Ogiso Owodo's son who was banished and Igodomigodo people believe he went to Ife and became the Ooni.

Ubini period

The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan whose father the Ooni sent to Igodomigodo at the request of the people, left after just 3 months in anger because he couldn't cope with the constant quarrels and fighting in the land, calling it Ile-Ibinu which later became Ubini, there is another school of thought that disproves this origin of the name Ubini but I will no go into that.

Benin period

The Benin period, when the Portuguese visited Benin in th 1400s AD they anglicised Ubini to Benin.

Edo / Ado period

The Edo period which the Yorubas call Ado. Oba Ewuare the great changed the name of the land to Edo in the 1400s AD after he ascended the throne. Numerous contact were made with the people of the west who later become the Yorubas.

It was after this period, places such as Ado Ekiti became prominent.

Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos. He was son of Ashipa, whom the Oba of Benin appointed as the first ruler of Eko. Ado's son, Gabaro was the third Oba of Lagos.

Various people depending on the period of contact with Benin continue to refer to Benin and her people with different names.

Back to the Orun Oba Ado at Ife.

It would have made more sense and perhaps more convincing if the place was named Orun Oba Ile-Ibinu or Ubini because this is the name Benin was known by at this period in the 1100s AD by Yoruba people.

The name Edo/Ado did not come into existence until much later in the 1400s AD

The people trying to forge / twist Benin history to boost the relevance and histories of their former little villages and hamlets will always run into problems because Benin history is too vast and well established.

You can now see why the purported burial site of the Obas of Benin in Ife is fake and can't be true because the name of the site Orun Oba Ado could have only come into existence during or after the reign of Oba Ewuare the great, the 13th Oba of Benin.

Like I already told you Oba Ewuare the great himself decreed that he should be buried in his mother's village of Esi near Udo. His grave/shrine is still there for those interested in history.

Benin itself is history and history is Benin. There are too many reference points in Benin that forgery and fabrications can easily be verified and dismissed.

Almost every inch of Benin represents historical accounts of events with landmarks.

lx3as:


The point is that many places Ìfẹ princes went to in those days were called Ado, Ido, etc (meaning, we establish, we arrive, etc). When Oranmiyan arrived Igodomigodo, The land and the people simply and naturally became Ado to the Ìfẹ/Yorubas. Notwithstanding, Oranmiyan himself called the land 'Ile Ibinu' when leaving the place, and that's where 'Bini, Benin' came from. Although the Igodomigodo people were not initially calling themselves the Oranmiyan given name; the Itsekiris told the Portuguese the name and they corrupted it to what we have today.

Which of the Ife prince went and Established Lagos considering that Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos. He was son of Ashipa, whom the Oba of Benin appointed as the first ruler of Eko. Ado's son, Gabaro was the third Oba of Lagos.

samuk:


Which of the Ife prince went and Established Lagos considering that Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos. He was son of Ashipa, whom the Oba of Benin appointed as the first ruler of Eko. Ado's son, Gabaro was the third Oba of Lagos.

Olofin Ogunfuminire (the leader of Aworis) left Ìfẹ palace to establish what we call Lagos now. His children, great grandchildren are still the land owners of Lagos up till now. The great grandchild of Oranmiyan called Ado was brought to Lagos by Ilajes and Itsekiris, he and his grand children have very little land in Iga Idugaran (in Island lga out of 20 LGAs & 57 LCDAs in Lagos state)

lx3as:


Olofin Ogunfuminire (the leader of Aworis) left Ìfẹ palace to establish what we call Lagos now. His children, great grandchildren are still the land owners of Lagos up till now. The great grandchild of Oranmiyan called Ado was brought to Lagos by Ilajes and Itsekiris, he and his grand children have very little land in Iga Idugaran (in Island lga out of 20 LGAs & 57 LCDAs in Lagos state)

Are you saying the descendants of your Olofin gave birth to the Lagos monarchy and the second Oba of Lagos, Oba Ado. If not what are the names of Ife/Awori Obas of Lagos before the Benin annexed Eko/Lagos and established the monarchy.

Since according to your earlier submission, Ado is synonymous with the people and areas Ife princes established, why is Lagos and all other places in Yoruba land that claim Ife ancestry not called Ado

Does it not make more sense to you that any place in Yoruba land with the word or name Ado is referencing the past relationship that place had with Benin in the past. Towns such as Ado Ekiti and Oba Ado of Lagos. Same as Onitsha N' Idu reference of Benin.

The word Ado has nothing to do with Ife princes establishing anything.

And this your grandson of Oranmiyan the Itsekiri brought to Lagos that was given land by the Aworis. Where did he come from, who sent him to Lagos and to go and do what on whose order.

I believe we are now getting closer to my earlier submission, in which I stated that some of you latter day Yoruba historians think you are so versed in Yoruba revisionist history, that you are ready to argue the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos.

samuk:


Are you saying the descendants of your Olofin gave birth to the Lagos monarchy and the second Oba of Lagos, Oba Ado. If not what are the names of Ife/Awori Obas of Lagos before the Benin annexed Eko/Lagos and established the monarchy.

Since according to your earlier submission, Ado is synonymous with the people and areas Ife prince established, why is Lagos and all other places in Yoruba land that claim Ife ancestry not called Ado

I just know through your last comment that I'm dealing with an emotional dude. Yoruba language is a tonal language, 'Ado' may have different pronunciation and meaning; and if you'd read my earlier comment, I didn't say all established settlements are called 'Ado' or 'Ido', some retained the old names Obatala followers or earlier settlers gave the place. To 'tẹ̀dó' is 'to establish' (further forms are, Adó, ìdó, meaning - where we established). I also have a late uncle called Àdó - meaning, a kind of amulet.

I didn't also see where I discussed who becomes Oba of Lagos or not, you asked about founder of Lagos and I gave you his name and that his great grand children are the landowners in Lagos (not entire Lagos State because there are Remo/Ijebu, etc communities) till today. You seem confused a bit, you surely need rest. Ire o!

samuk:


Are you saying the descendants of your Olofin gave birth to the Lagos monarchy and the second Oba of Lagos, Oba Ado. If not what are the names of Ife/Awori Obas of Lagos before the Benin annexed Eko/Lagos and established the monarchy.

Since according to your earlier submission, Ado is synonymous with the people and areas Ife princes established, why is Lagos and all other places in Yoruba land that claim Ife ancestry not called Ado

Does it not make more sense to you that any place in Yoruba land with the word or name Ado is referencing the past relationship that place had with Benin in the past. Towns such as Ado Ekiti and Oba Ado of Lagos. Same as Onitsha N' Idu reference of Benin.

The word Ado has nothing to do with Ife princes establishing anything.

And this your grandson of Oranmiyan the Itsekiri brought to Lagos that was given land by the Aworis. Where did he come from, who sent him to Lagos and to go and do what on whose order.

You are joining them in the fairytale discussion ?
All these stories including oduduwa, oranmiyan, ogiso, igodomigodo...are mere fairytales which were created sometime in colonial Nigeria and had never been heard of before.
You should ask the guy to prove his claims rather than the questions which you are asking, it is very easy for the Yoruba guys to create spin off stories to fill in the gap and answer your question (with new lies).

You don't offer a liar the opportunity to tell more lies, you confront him about the absurdity of his stories and the lack of proof. You remain logical to the letter.

This their "olofin" story is just one of their spinoffs. Notice how it is very similar to "alafin", that shows that these Yoruba liars have a weak imagination.

ghostwon:


You are joining them in the fairytale discussion ?
All these stories including oduduwa, oranmiyan, ogiso, igodomigodo...are mere fairytales which were created sometime in colonial Nigeria and had never been heard of before.
You should ask the guy to prove his claims rather than the questions which you are asking, it is very easy for the Yoruba guys to create spin off stories to fill in the gap and answer your question (with new lies).

You don't offer a liar the opportunity to tell more lies, you confront him about the absurdity of his stories and the lack of proof. You remain logical to the letter.

I thought he would have realised that by now, at times, one is forced to engage because of those that may be interested in authentic history but are less informed.

The danger is, if you allow this guys to carry on unchallenged, their audiences may think they are saying the truth.

samuk:


I thought he would have realised that by now, at times, one is forced to engage because of those that may be interested in authentic history but are less informed.

The danger is, if you allow this guys to carry on unchallenged, their audiences may think they are saying the truth.

Yes, I get you.
I just wish the Nigerian educational system wasn't so backward and actually made people become smarter and more knowledgeable. That is not the case. History is absent from Nigerian schools (I mean impartial proof based history, not the usual story story Nigerians love to spread). If Nigerian schools taught history well, then all these Yoruba trolls would not be trying to rewrite history in broad daylight. All this is just a consequence of Nigeria's backwardness.

samuk:


Which of the Ife prince went and Established Lagos considering that Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos. He was son of Ashipa, whom the Oba of Benin appointed as the first ruler of Eko. Ado's son, Gabaro was the third Oba of Lagos.

The truth is the yorubas are themselves finding a source of history for themselves at the present world lucky Benin had interaction with, they saw it as a means to milk out any possible form of history to suit their aims and which they find it out not easy because esosa history is well detailed, I envy the toaf of a guy, tho he is left with empty and watering history by his people he had gone miles by reading both his people history and that of the esosa history to help him in his quest I acknowledged him for that if only we had an edo person who would do the-same it will go along way stopping any further misconceptions from distorters of edo history

2) ife only became popular in Yoruba history because of the connection with Benin same would be said by oduduwa the way the yorubas adorn oduduwa without any tangible credit than having a connection with Benin , oduduwa was not the first king or the last or even the progenitor of the Yoruba race but its popularity can only be attributed to Benin connection amongst the Yoruba if he had no connection with edo people he would have never have an history on his own

3) the issue of every Yoruba clan coming directly from ife speaks nothing but rewriting and a watery history of the Yoruba people , no sort of interclan migration amongst them

4) Orun oba ado which is scientifically and literally wrong the excavation on the site of Orun oba ado was empty no heads or body was found on the site and yet they still parade it , when it’s al cleared out

ghostwon:

Yes, I get you.
I just wish the Nigerian educational system wasn't so backward and actually made people become smarter and more knowledgeable. That is not the case. History is absent from Nigerian schools (I mean impartial proof based history, not the usual story story Nigerians love to spread). If Nigerian schools taught history well, then all these Yoruba trolls would not be trying to rewrite history in broad daylight. All this is just a consequence of Nigeria's backwardness.

At times all you have to do is throw in few baits here and there, draw them in and then give them the rope to hang themselves.

gregyboy:



The truth is the yorubas are themselves finding a source of history for themselves at the present world lucky Benin had interaction with, they saw it as a means to milk out any possible form of history to suit their aims and which they find it out not easy because esosa history is well detailed, I envy the toaf of a guy, tho he is left with empty and watering history by his people he had gone miles by reading both his people history and that of the esosa history to help him in his quest I acknowledged him for that if only we had an edo person who would do the-same it will go along way stopping any further misconceptions from distorters of edo history

2) ife only became popular in Yoruba history because of the connection with Benin same would be said by oduduwa the way the yorubas adorn oduduwa without any tangible credit than having a connection with Benin , oduduwa was not the first king or the last or even the progenitor of the Yoruba race but its popularity can only be attributed to Benin connection amongst the Yoruba if he had no connection with edo people he would have never have an history on his own

3) the issue of every Yoruba clan coming directly from ife speaks nothing but rewriting and a watery history of the Yoruba people , no sort of interclan migration amongst them

4) Orun oba ado which is scientifically and literally wrong the excavation on the site of Orun oba ado was empty no heads or body was found on the site and yet they still parade it , when it’s al cleared out

It's laughable that their supposed past glories and greatness is always based on their the Benin told the European so. No written documentation of eye witness accounts. No evidence to reference other than fabrications.

When I stated that the Benin people built the greatest man made structure on earth, the Benin moat, 4 times the great wall of China, I provided a link to the Guinness book of world records as evidence.

If you asked for concrete evidence of their past exploits, they will be looking for Benin history to spin out of context.

They hardly say anything tangible without the mention of Benin in some ways for validity.

They believe that the authenticity of ones history is based on land mass and population size.

samuk:


(1). Ubini period

The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan ... , left ... in anger ..., calling it Ile-Ibinu which later became Ubini, there is another school of thought that disproves this origin of the name Ubini but I will no go into that.


(2) Edo / Ado period

The Edo period which the Yorubas call Ado ...

[s]It was after this period, places such as Ado Ekiti became prominent.[/s]


(3) Oba Ado who reigned from 1630-1669 was the second Oba of Lagos.

[s]Various people depending on the period of contact with Benin continue to refer to Benin and her people with different names.[/s]


Back to the Orun Oba Ado at Ife.

It would have made more sense and perhaps more convincing if the place was named Orun Oba Ile-Ibinu or Ubini ... because this is the name Benin was known by at this period in the 1100s AD by Yoruba people.

(1) Your argument which you're trying hard to defend here is as follows:

"Igodomigodo ... was the name (of the land) ... during the reign of Oba Eweka 1".

But the so-called evidence you're now bringing forward to supposedly defend it is as follows:

"The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan ... , left ... in anger ..., calling it Ile-Ibinu ..."

How do you not see that your so-called evidence contradicts what you had intended it to support??

In other words, you just admitted (without knowing) that I was right when I rubbished your "Orun Oba Igodomigodo" proposition. Lol


(2) Regarding your second point:

Wait, why do you Edo Nairalanders often assume that the Yorubas originally meant to say Edo when we talk of Orun Oba Ado??

This assumption is annoying, sickening, and nauseous. Y'all should stop assuming!

Now listen carefully: When the Yorubas say Ado in relation to your land, we do not intend to say Edo. Ado is what we just said. Gosh!

If you want to know why, then that's a separate issue. You ask!

Moreover, I will be patiently waiting for the historical evidence with which you supported your imaginative side point on Ado-Ekiti.


(3) The Ado you mentioned in your point (3) here is not even the name of a place, but of a person.

The point you've brought up here is so unrelated to the issue at hand by humdreds of years.

How did you even get to this?

Oh, just in case you didn't know, the King Ado of Lagos here is not even a Bini. To be emphatic, he is Yoruba --- full blooded Awori-Yoruba man of direct Ife royal descent.

But this is a side-point. Do not cease this as an opportunity to distract.

Let's face the burial issue squarely for now!

samuk:


At times all you have to do is throw in few baits here and there, draw them in and then give them the rope to hang themselves.

They (the yar.riba) already hanged themselves the moment they started discussing fairytales in the middle of a history discussion.
Refuse to be dragged to their level, refuse to discuss fairytales.
The fact is the yar.iba have no facts, no actual history, so they can't have a rational, logical, proof based debate about history.
Their only survival line is to drag the debate into illogical territory. Sentiments and fairytales.
These guys are a result of Nigeria's poor educational system, tribal biggotry and unlimited internet access which allows fools to speak with confidence and to be heard way more than they used to in the pre-internet world.

cc: samuk

So facing the burial issue squarely and back to your point on no skulls found:

Refer here and address my argument. Stop shying away. You can do this! Lol

https://www.nairaland.com/5713629/main-reasons-yoruba-not-enlisted/11#88003104

TAO11:


(1) Your argument which you're trying hard to defend here is as follows:

"Igodomigodo ... was the name (of the land) ... during the reign of Oba Eweka 1".

The so-called evidence you're now bringing forward to supposedly defend it is as follows:

"The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan ... , left ... in anger ..., calling it Ile-Ibinu ..."

How do you not see that your so-called evidence contradicts what you had intend it to support??

In other words, you just admitted (without knowing) that I was right when I rubbished your "Orun Oba Igodomigodo" proposition. Lol


(2) Regarding your second point:

Wait, why do you Edo Nairalanders often assume that the Yorubas originally meant to say Edo when we talk of Orun Oba Ado??

This assumption is annoying, sickening, and nauseous. Y'all should stop assuming!

Now listen carefully: When the Yorubas say Ado in relation to your land, we do not intend to say Edo. Ado is what we just said. Gosh!

If you want to know why, then that's a separate issue. You ask!

Moreover, I will be patiently waiting for the historical evidence with which you supported your imaginatibe side point on Ado-Ekiti.


(3) The Ado you mentioned in your point (3) here is not even the name of a place of a person.

The point you've brought up here is so unrelated to the issue at hand by humdreds of years.

How did you even get to this?

Oh, just in case you didn't know, the King Ado of Lagos here is not even a Bini. To be emphatic, he is Yoruba --- full blooded Awori-Yoruba man of direct Ife royal descent.

But this is a side-point. Do not cease this as an opportunity to distract.

Lets face the burial issue squarely for now!

I believe we have now finally gotten to the point that you are now arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos. I believe we have now come full circle.

samuk:


Since according to your earlier submission, Ado is synonymous with the people and areas Ife princes established, why is Lagos and all other places in Yoruba land that claim Ife ancestry not called Ado

Does it not make more sense to you that any place in Yoruba land with the word or name Ado is referencing the past relationship that place had with Benin in the past. Towns such as Ado Ekiti and Oba Ado of Lagos. Same as Onitsha N' Idu reference of Benin.

The word Ado has nothing to do with Ife princes establishing anything.

And this your grandson of Oranmiyan the Itsekiri brought to Lagos that was given land by the Aworis. Where did he come from, who sent him to Lagos and to go and do what on whose order.

You are muddling up lots of things hence your confusion!

I'm related to the Ado you just mentioned and I would give you a little history about my place. A PhD holder once made the same silly statement 'Ado-Ekiti people are from Bini' and I sat him down and told him our history since I share same with Ado, I will only tell you the abridged one since I don't believe I'm dealing with sound fellow.

The Ewi, Oluda, and their brother, Tewogbade were the children of Olofin (another name for Ìfẹ ruler) who left Ìfẹ to establish their kingdoms. They settled in different territories like ilésà, Owena before leaving for a place in present Edo state. After some time they re-traced their steps and settled in Ido-Ani in present Ondo State. After many years and to cut the story short, they left Ido-Ani and settled in many other communities like present Oba-Ile, Emure, Àgbádó, etc before finally arrived Ado. At Ado, they met ancient people and also Obatala followers who had settled earlier. We call these people 'Ulesun, Urahurẹ́ people'.

Most communities those days had priests leadership and they were like further extension of Ìfẹ; they revered Ìfẹ, its gods and rulers. Immediately a prince came with any Ìfẹ palace regalia, crown, Ida, beats, etc the older leadership gave way for them to become king. It's not always through war... to cut long story short, Oduduwa children from Ori-Eguru, Ile Ìfẹ, the Ọmọ Ọwá, Ewi became king over Ado people while Oluda became king of Iyin-Ekiti. They have nothing to do with Bini.

Although settled people in eastern Yoruba settlements accord Bini princes same honour given to those of Ìfẹ (they accepted Bini, through Oranmiyan, as an extension of Ìfẹ). That's why towns like Ikare, Ikere have two obas till this day. Reason people of Iwerre who were mainly from Ikale, Ilaje and Ijebu installed Ginuwa from Bini as their king.

Most Bini influence in the eastern Yoruba territories were not through Bini soldiers but through Yoruba lords & territories who were loyal to the Oba being from Oranmiyan, the revered Ìfẹ prince and ruler. for instance, Ikere waged lots of war on Ado to maintain Bini trading influence.

I will repeat here, whatever past glory of Bini was due to its Ìfẹ connection in blood (people), culture, religion, arts, etc.

Can you now tell me the meaning of Ado in Igodomigodo language?

samuk:


I believe we have now finally gotten to the point that you are now arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos. I believe we have now come full circle.

Hahah ... You're happy to run away from the burial argument buy attempting to distract to a side point.

No, we shall discuss everything if you please. But one after another.

That's the most sensible approach, don't you think?

TAO11:


(1) Your argument which you're trying hard to defend here is as follows:

"Igodomigodo ... was the name (of the land) ... during the reign of Oba Eweka 1".

The so-called evidence you're now bringing forward to supposedly defend it is as follows:

"The Ubini period, this is the period beginning with Eweka the first in 1100s AD. Some people believe that the name came about when Oranmiyan ... , left ... in anger ..., calling it Ile-Ibinu ..."

How do you not see that your so-called evidence contradicts what you had intend it to support??

In other words, you just admitted (without knowing) that I was right when I rubbished your "Orun Oba Igodomigodo" proposition. Lol


(2) Regarding your second point:

Wait, why do you Edo Nairalanders often assume that the Yorubas originally meant to say Edo when we talk of Orun Oba Ado??

This assumption is annoying, sickening, and nauseous. Y'all should stop assuming!

Now listen carefully: When the Yorubas say Ado in relation to your land, we do not intend to say Edo. Ado is what we just said. Gosh!

If you want to know why, then that's a separate issue. You ask!

Moreover, I will be patiently waiting for the historical evidence with which you supported your imaginatibe side point on Ado-Ekiti.


(3) The Ado you mentioned in your point (3) here is not even the name of a place of a person.

The point you've brought up here is so unrelated to the issue at hand by humdreds of years.

How did you even get to this?

Oh, just in case you didn't know, the King Ado of Lagos here is not even a Bini. To be emphatic, he is Yoruba --- full blooded Awori-Yoruba man of direct Ife royal descent.

But this is a side-point. Do not cease this as an opportunity to distract.

Lets face the burial issue squarely for now!

He's trying hard to distract with the issue of Ado.

lx3as:


He's trying hard to distract with the issue of Ado.

Whatever he brings, in as much as it's about the burial issue, then I am more than capable to chew him and spit out his remains.

I actually warned him (and gave him opportunities to leave) at the outset because I understand that the issue is quite sentitive.


But since he reluctantly proceeded, then he is not allowed at this time to run away to a separate topic, or run away from discussing altogether.