MelesZenawi:




Cancelled it because what you wrote here is a load of Cambodian rubbish... recycled in Congo and dumped in Benin.

I have always tell people on this forum that points are not drawn from little papers when over thousands of technical papers existing...

What the hell is Benin kingdom or whatever rubbish you chose to call it...?


If you don't know much about people , you ask question instead of writing trash or moreover you research about Nri hegemony and where her fame starts and ends and another begins from there. Nri has people it is ascribed to and if you don't know you ask questions instead of exhibiting loads of Ignorance online.


Reloading Nonsense at this 21st century is simply animalistic and archaic...

This is 21st century and Today is 5th of March and as it stands today Igboland is Igboland, hausaland is hausaland, biniland is biniland like wise Yorubaland and others...

Revisionist theorist has never achieved anything with propaganda. You are in Igboland and your ancestors in Benin...what s theory of gigantic propose..and only psyche believes that..


The relationship any group has with anybody is simply that of trade infact businesses and nothing else.

Obi of onitsha has it's allegiance to Igboland. He doesn't answer any Bini name likewise his lineage. The man don't speak Bini or even hear the language.. What on Earth will lead to r/ship if not conquest by old kingdoms and business also.

Come and tell me also that Igboland is Bini ancestry. Relationship are seen by traces but in the case of Bini I am yet even a single drop of it if not unnecessary fictitious article...

Abeg carry this your Bini theory to Urhobo, Itshekiri...

Igbos has passed that nonsense in this 21st century. Even riding through thick of the forest, it was ends with title of either obi, eze or igwe..


The worst fabrication is this nonsense I read of nri to the glory of one nonsense kingdom.

Happy Sunday and good to know you are still around following the arguments and debates.

We don't have to agree all the time. We agree sometimes and disagree some other times.

Hope you are enjoying your Sunday and hiding from Covid-19.

samuk:


You are very right, that is the reason the Yorubas always come up with provocative threads, to draw the attention of Benin and learn new things with style as the debate goes on, all the new information they learn from the Benins are then used to correct their errors in future revised versions of their fabrications.

The Ife and Oduduwa myth were created to unite all Yorubas under one spiritual umbrella the way the Sultan of Sokoto is the religious and spiritual leader of all muslims and Hausa/Fulani.

Igbo also tried the Same with their Nri story.

Whilst the Hausa/Fulani succeeded, the Yorubas and Igbos are having problems with theirs because of the presence of kings of Benin descendants in these places that will not reduce themselves or submit themselves to those they think are royal and spiritual usurpers and inferior to themselves because of their Benin royal bloods

The same reason the Oba of Lagos will not subscribe to the supremacy of the Ooni even publicly disgracing him by refusing to shake his hand.

Oba of Lagos have severally said in public that the Oba of Benin is his father.

There is also the Alafin/Ooni supremacy tussle.

So trying to include Benin to their Ife/Oduduwa project is very important to those propagating the Yoruba spiritual unification project.

It allows them to extend their reach into all former Benin empire territories and those monarchies that claim Benin ancestry.

They can use it to claim Lagos, Itsekiri and other Benin descendant monarchies true the back door.

In the east, you have the Nri spiritual project having problems because the Arochukwus will not subscribe to it and the Obi of Onitsha, a descendant of Benin will not accept the supremacy of Nri over himself.

The Obi of Onitsha considers himself the true royal blood and the most senior king in Igbo land.

The west and east spiritual unification of the people would have succeeded like the North but because of the egos of the majority tribes.

In the North, the majority Hausa people unite under the leadership of the minority Fulani whilst the Fulani adopted the Hausa language as a common language.

The latter day Hausa majority are not trying to usurp the conquest and historical achievements of the Fulani or trying to rewrite their history.

The west could have done the same by having Yoruba/Benin west with the Oba of Benin as the spiritual leader because he is the one that have the conquest and historical achievements to ascend such a position, you wouldn't have had a situation of the Oba of Lagos publicly disrespecting the Oba of Benin and on exchange the Benin would have adopted the Yoruba language as a common language.

Same way the majority Igbos could have come under the spiritual leadership of the Obi of Onitsha rather than causing confusion with the Nri project.

Foreign historians believe ife and benin never had an connection

The Oghene the edo mentioned to the Portuguese has been traced to igala and we know in benin history that edo had a connection with igala people before even before the benin - igala war a bsnin chief had gone to seek the help of thier powerful neighbors the igala to help waged a war against benin fortunately benin came out victorious,
But no fucking records on ife than mere myth
They trying to steal the Oghene as ife two foreign historians had disprove this fact


The sly tao11 would take a rest from benin-ife history soon when all the truth is out


Benin had maintained ekeladeran had ran to ughoton and not ife in the earliest first record, it was the idiot egharevba that related the benin autonomous history and that ife oduduwa when benin was still part of former western region

Please lets start telling the stories correctly its a shamed foreign writters are the ones helping us to correct this notion we made up

Ekeladeran ran to ughoton at the time benin was still very autonomous and centralized like it was before the arrival of the Portuguese, i believed before the benin chiefs got to ughoton ekeladeran had moved from ughton to somewhere unknown or probably even died the son eweka he left behind at ughoton became the first oba, this is to show the word oba is a beni world influence by the benins to the yoruba people

samuk:


Happy Sunday and good to know you are still around following the arguments and debates.

We don't have to agree all the time. We agree sometimes and disagree some other times.

Hope you are enjoying your Sunday and hiding from Covid-19.

You really cross boundary with such analysis. You are here arguing with Yorubas and suddenly how Igbos fly into the talk is what I am yet to fathom out...

Is that how you balance issues?

MelesZenawi:



You really cross boundary with such analysis. You are here arguing with Yorubas and suddenly how Igbos fly into the talk is what I am yet to fathom out...

Is that how you balance issues?

How does that answer my question about how your Sunday is going.

samuk:

How does that answer my question about how your Sunday is going.

No need answering. Necessity doesn't demand I give an answer.
I have never seen where Insult begots salutations...

gregyboy:



Foreign historians believe ife and benin never had an connection

The Oghene the edo mentioned to the Portuguese has been traced to igala and we know in benin history that edo had a connection with igala people before even before the benin - igala war a bsnin chief had gone to seek the help of thier powerful neighbors the igala to help waged a war against benin fortunately benin came out victorious,
But no fucking records on ife than mere myth
They trying to steal the Oghene as ife two foreign historians had disprove this fact


The sly tao11 would take a rest from benin-ife history soon when all the truth is out


Benin had maintained ekeladeran had ran to ughoton and not ife in the earliest first record, it was the idiot egharevba that related the benin autonomous history and that ife oduduwa when benin was still part of former western region

Please lets start telling the stories correctly its a shamed foreign writters are the ones helping us to correct this notion we made up

Ekeladeran ran to ughoton at the time benin was still very autonomous and centralized like it was before the arrival of the Portuguese, i believed before the benin chiefs got to ughoton ekeladeran had moved from ughton to somewhere unknown or probably even died the son eweka he left behind at ughoton became the first oba, this is to show the word oba is a beni world influence by the benins to the yoruba people

Are you familiar with the works of Osarẹn S B Ọmọregie and The age of Iso Norho. If you are not, find yourself a copy.

Benin Uhe is the mountainous area of Edo North and Kogi state. That is the area the Benins run to for refuge when must part of the low land was flooded with water due the rains that was possibly captured in the bible during the time of Noah/the last ice age.

gregyboy:



Foreign historians believe ife and benin never had an connection

The Oghene the edo mentioned to the Portuguese has been traced to igala and we know in benin history that edo had a connection with igala people before even before the benin - igala war a bsnin chief had gone to seek the help of thier powerful neighbors the igala to help waged a war against benin fortunately benin came out victorious,
But no fucking records on ife than mere myth
They trying to steal the Oghene as ife two foreign historians had disprove this fact


The sly tao11 would take a rest from benin-ife history soon when all the truth is out


Benin had maintained ekeladeran had ran to ughoton and not ife in the earliest first record, it was the idiot egharevba that related the benin autonomous history and that ife oduduwa when benin was still part of former western region

Please lets start telling the stories correctly its a shamed foreign writters are the ones helping us to correct this notion we made up

Ekeladeran ran to ughoton at the time benin was still very autonomous and centralized like it was before the arrival of the Portuguese, i believed before the benin chiefs got to ughoton ekeladeran had moved from ughton to somewhere unknown or probably even died the son eweka he left behind at ughoton became the first oba, this is to show the word oba is a beni world influence by the benins to the yoruba people

Lol. I bet that right now you must be thinking that you've stumpled upon gold-mine.

Anyways, why do you you choose to cite works from a time when scholars have conflicting vareity of uncertain opinions on the identification of certain historical personages or places??

Why do you love to choose that over the present time when scholars have now come to a consensus regarding the identification of the same personage and place??

First it was A. F. C. Ryder's 1965 admittedly uncertain identification of the Ogane.

And now it is John K. Thornton's 1988 erroneous identification of the Ogane and Yufi which is based heavily on Ryder's.

Is there any particular reason why you've chosen to cling to some past mistakes of some scholars, even when such mistakes have been improved upon and corrected in present times by the consensus of contemporary scholarship??

I guess it's whatever makes you sleep well at night.

I have cited you for the umpteenth time an important 2016 historical work of Adam Knobler from where you can see for yourself how the consensus of modern historical scholarship have improved on the errors from the past regarding the identification of the Ogane.

In case you missed it earlier, see below again:

samuk:


Are you familiar with the works of Osarẹn S B Ọmọregie and The age of Iso Norho. If you are not, find yourself a copy.

Benin Uhe is the mountainous area of Edo North and Kogi state. That is the area the Benins run to for refuge when must part of the low land was flooded with water due the rains that was possibly captured in the bible during the time of Noah/the last ice age.

We need start sourcing our history out, our forefathers had done well to lay a good history for us and what could do to pay them is telling the histories properly and sourcing them out


The idiot egharevba who was finding a way to merge edo to the western region created the false history of Oduduwa

Benin in earliest time maintained izoduwa escaped to ughoton and that is what benin referred to uhe
It was after the egharevba articles that benin historian began to follow the Oduduwa trend and it lead us nowhere than lies and confusion the foreign writters also admitted that this kingdom benin had contact with lost most of thier history after they became islamized,



Please post the link of the work of the benin historian you mentioned

TAO11:


Lol. I bet that right now you must be thinking that you've stumpled upon gold-mine.

Anyways, why do you you choose to cite works from a time when scholars have conflicting vareity of uncertain opinions on the identification of certain historical personages or places??

Why do you love to choose that over the present time when scholars have now come to a consensus regarding the identification of the same personage and place??

First it was A. F. C. Ryder's 1965 admittedly uncertain identification of the Ogane.

And now it is John K. Thornton's 1988 erroneous identification of the Ogane and Yufi which is based heavily on Ryder's.

Is there any particular reason why you've chosen to cling to some past mistakes of some scholars, even when such mistakes have been improved upon and corrected in present times by the consensus of contemporary scholarship??

I guess it's whatever makes you sleep well at night.

I have cited you for the umpteenth time an important 2016 historical work of Adam Knobler from where you can see for yourself how the consensus of modern historical scholarship have improved on the errors from the past regarding the identification of the Ogane.

In case you missed it earlier, see below again:

Lol, you keep citing egharevba works even when you know its wrong

The cited afc ryder works to prove a point even when you knew it was incorrect work
But now you coming to form saint because its hitting you hard

I notice your mentions had drooped since we began to question benin-ife relationship

Here is a new work that reevaluated ryders work

TAO11:


Lol. I bet that right now you must be thinking that you've stumpled upon gold-mine.

Anyways, why do you you choose to cite works from a time when scholars have conflicting vareity of uncertain opinions on the identification of certain historical personages or places??

Why do you love to choose that over the present time when scholars have now come to a consensus regarding the identification of the same personage and place??

First it was A. F. C. Ryder's 1965 admittedly uncertain identification of the Ogane.

And now it is John K. Thornton's 1988 erroneous identification of the Ogane and Yufi which is based heavily on Ryder's.

Is there any particular reason why you've chosen to cling to some past mistakes of some scholars, even when such mistakes have been improved upon and corrected in present times by the consensus of contemporary scholarship??

I guess it's whatever makes you sleep well at night.

I have cited you for the umpteenth time an important 2016 historical work of Adam Knobler from where you can see for yourself how the consensus of modern historical scholarship have improved on the errors from the past regarding the identification of the Ogane.

In case you missed it earlier, see below again:

This was written after ryders work

gregyboy:


This was written after ryders work

I already said that because I have the article!

Do you even read what you reply to??

gregyboy:



We need start sourcing our history out, our forefathers had done well to lay a good history for us and what could do to pay them is telling the histories properly and sourcing them out


The idiot egharevba who was finding a way to merge edo to the western region created the false history of Oduduwa

Benin in earliest time maintained izoduwa escaped to ughoton and that is what benin referred to uhe
It was after the egharevba articles that benin historian began to follow the Oduduwa trend and it lead us nowhere than lies and confusion the foreign writters also admitted that this kingdom benin had contact with lost most of thier history after they became islamized,



Please post the link of the work of the benin historian you mentioned

I am not sure if they are readily available online but if you are in Benin, some of the old bookshops may still have them, I got my copies shipped to me many years ago but don't know where they are now.

Try googling the author online.

Thousands of years ago Benin people also lived side by side with now extinct dwarf pygmies that were less than 5 feet in height.

The same dwarf pygmies are mentioned in the evergreen Sir Victor Uwaifo's song Jorome. Ivbie-ehivineka.

The Benin/Ida war you mentioned happened in 1500s, during the reign of Oba Esigie, centuries before the Benin/Ife stories were manufactured. Oba Esigie had problems with one of his chiefs and the chief instigated the Atta of Igala to invade Benin.

The Igala were stopped and repelled at the Emuemue statue at Ikpoba hill with help of guns that were supplied to Benin by the Portuguese.

The first know letter that was ever written from Benin was written during this war in the 1500s by a Portuguese man who was stationed in Benin and wrote back to his King the report of the ongoing war between Benin and Ida.

Emue-mue at Ikpoba hill is also referenced in another Sir Victor Uwaifo's song. Emue-mue was one of the tactics and tricks Benin used to defeat the Igala with the help of Oba Esigie's mother, the first Benin female military general.

Today the Atta of Igala still wears the Benin Idia (Festac) mask around his neck.

We sometimes like to dance and have fun with our Yoruba brothers online even though we know they are spewing rubbish as history.

Benin history is too vast, well established and documented.

Benin/Ife story is nothing but hogwash, that is why you hardly find anything in the numerous letters and documents that were written by Europeans stationed in Benin for centuries making any mention of it, except the later day revisionists.

samuk:


I am not sure if they are readily available online but if you are in Benin some of the old bookshops may still have them, I got my copies shipped to me many years ago but don't know where they are now.

Try googling the author online.

Thousands of years ago Benin people also lived side by side with now extinct dwarf pygmies that were less than 5 feet in height.

The same dwarf pygmies are mentioned in the evergreen Sir Victor Uwaifo's song Jorome. Ivbie-ehivineka.

We choose not to make personal research on our history we just leave it untill something comes up before the history will be told

All this research work will help us understand were we migrated from

Always try to post your findings so peoole like us can carryout our own research so that way the knowledge is not lost

MelesZenawi:


No need answering. Necessity doesn't demand I give an answer.

I have never seen where Insult begots salutations...

Whilst the fun continues, every now and then, I have to check to see if you are still in the house enjoying the debate with us by writing something about the Igbos.

It will be unfair to leave my Igbo brothers in the cold.

TAO11:


I already said that because I have the article!

Do you even read what you reply to??

Igaa ogene never be ife are you that dumo or mischievous did you read any of the articles what made you believe the 2016 article was correct because its new"

The benins described oghene as one who carried cross does your ooni know what is cross

Historans even argue if those ife artwork was originally made in ife or they had bought it fron mechant or they even migrated to meet them m there


The ife art works were not made by ife they probably had bought them from mechant

gregyboy:



We choose not to make personal research on our history we just leave it untill something comes up before the history will be told

All this research work will help us understand were we migrated from

Always try to post your findings so peoole like us can carryout our own research so that way the knowledge is not lost

Trust me alot has been done and still being done interms of research into Benin history, you are probably not aware of them.

There are people still living in their 90s in Benin City who have been researching and writing about Benin history for over 50 years.

The reason you hear about Egharebva is the Yorubas who love his stories because it supports their fabrications.

There are volumes of unpublished works.

Check out Imaseun Izoduwa, leader of Great Benin Descendants (GBD) worldwide, online.

The guy is doing alot and working with great Benin researchers and authors.

The guy and his team have made numerous trips to those tribes across west Africa that claim Benin descents, they often invite him and his team to their celebrations.

He and his team have been invited and visited Benin descendants in Ghana, Rivers State, Delta State etc. You will see find videos of some of his visits online.

He even do live broadcast on Facebook on Benin history.

You can contact him.

samuk:


[s]I submitted in an earlier post that the reason it's difficult for the forgery and fabrications of Benin history to stand the test of time is because of the many reference points that may be unknown to the forger.[/s]

You based your calculations on the assumptions that all Obas of Benin finished their reigns, died and was buried in Benin according to customs and traditions of the land.

The list of the Obas you presented did not take into account the Obas that couldn't be buried in Benin for various reasons which included their body not being found for burial due to drowning.

Infact some of the Obas you cited as their heads being buried in Ife are in the list of Obas that couldn't have been buried in Benin let alone their heads being exhumed and taken to Ife.

If the Obas that where not or couldn't been buried in Benin for various reasons where taken into account, your calculations wouldn't add up.

[s]What you guys always do is to learn new things from the Benin and used the new information to adjust your future fabrications to make them look authentic.

The reason some Benin people are reluctant to debate you guys is because when your errors are pointed out, you take the new revelation/information and use them to come up with reversed fabrications.

There is one small piece of information you guys have since abandoned because of what you learned from the Benin.[/s]

Orun Oba Ado fallacy initially started with two sites, one for the remains of male Obas of Benin and another for female Obas of Benin.

This was as a result of the Yorubas thinking that Benin also had female Obas.

[s]Now you don't talk about the female site anymore.[/s]


The Orun Oba Ado is a fallacy.

Is this the best damage control stunt and excuses you can pull??

Even I myself am feeling pity for you right now. Sorry

Anyways, to knock of your self-inflicted delusions and excuses, get the following into your thick skull:

One of your two chief excuse and damage control attempt was of Oba Ewuare I's request to be burried at Esi.

Even if this is a historical information which you can substantiate, I will love to see your ingenious explanation of how it is a detterent to the tradition of exhumed the heads of third-reign Benin Obas for burial at Orun Oba Ado

You can do this!


The second chief excuse and damage control attempt you made was of the 18th king --- Oboa Orhogbua's alleged drowning and lost corpse.

And my response to this is simply that: This statement right here is false in its entirety.

Proceed to substantiate this statement in case you think you're correct.

In fact, the closest historical information that exists is of another Benin Oba who drowned. Yet, nothing is said (in any historical record) about the unwillingness of the Benin Navy to recover his floating body.


In summary, the underlying facts which deflate and undermine your overall excuses and damage control attempts are two, viz.

(1) The location of the Oba's burial (even if outside of Benin) is in no way a detterent to the tradition of exhuming their heads for burial at Ife.

(2) This tradition is done (according to historical information) only in every third-reign.

In light of this deconstruction and debunking of your chief excuses and damge control attempt, I will love to see how you come up with a similar enumeration which will result in other than eleven third-reign heads.


In response to your side-distraction, provide me your evidence for any Ife-Yoruba tradition which states that there is a burial site for some alleged female Obas of Benin.

And if you can't provide any such evidence (and certainly you can't as such evidence exists only in yoir wild imagination), then you may wan't to consider quitting your habitual lying as a matter of urgency.

I am always here to evsntuallu burst your lies no matter how cool those lies have initially made you appear.

In conlusion:
Contrary to your wishful-imagination about Orun Oba Ado, I have in contrast cited historical information showing that the heads of third-reign Benin Obas were exhumed and taken to Orun Oba Ado site in Ife for burial.

I have also adduced corroborating archaeological evidence from excavation quest at Orun Oba Ado which not only confirmed the circular "burial pits", but also found them to be "eleven" --- a number which matches the number of third-reigns at Benin kingdom with astonishing accuracy.

See here:

As an important appendix to the foregoing, it is important to note that that I stress here that Frank Willett himself had indicated elsewhere that to disprove a local tradition of olden burial, what archaeologists look out for is the absense of burial pits.

In other words, archaeologists themselves understand that the absense of human remains is not the factor for absolute disproof, as they could have been put to other sacred use prior to modern times.

Cheers!

samuk:


Trust me alot has been done and still being done interms of research into Benin history, you are probably not aware of them.

There are people still living in their 90s in Benin City who have been researching and writing about Benin history for over 50 years.

The reason you hear about Egharebva is the Yorubas who love his stories because it supports their fabrications.

There are volumes of unpublished works.

Check out Imaseun Izoduwa, leader of Great Benin Descendants (GBD) worldwide, online.

The guy is doing alot and working with great Benin researchers and authors.

The guy and his team have made numerous trips to those tribes across west Africa that claim Benin descents, they often invite him and his team to their celebrations.

He and his team have been invited and visited Benin descendants in Ghana, Rivers State, Delta State etc. You will see find videos of some of his visits online.

He even do live broadcast on Facebook on Benin history.

You can contact him.

How do i contact him

TAO11:


Is this the best damage control stunt and excuses you can pull??

Even I myself am feeling pity for you right now. Sorry

Anyways, to knock of your self-inflicted delusions and excuses, get the following into your thick skull:

One of your two chief excuse and damage control attempt was of Oba Ewuare I's request to be burried at Esi.

Even if this is a historical information which you can substantiate, I will love to see your ingenious explanation of how it is a detterent to the tradition of exhumed the heads of third-reign Benin Obas for burial at Orun Oba Ado

You can do this!


The second chief excuse and damage control attempt you made was of the 18th king --- Oboa Orhogbua's alleged drowning and lost corpse.

And my response to this is simply that: This statement right here is false in its entirety.

Proceed to substantiate this statement in case you think you're correct.

In fact, the closest historical information that exists is of another Benin Oba who drowned. Yet, nothing is said (in any historical record) about the unwillingness of the Benin Navy to recover his floating body.


In summary, the underlying facts which deflate and undermine your overall excuses and damage control attempts are two, viz.

(1) The location of the Oba's burial (even if outside of Benin) is in no way a detterent to the tradition of exhuming their heads for burial at Ife.

(2) This tradition is done (according to historical information) only in every third-reign.

In light of this deconstruction and debunking of your chief excuses and damge control attempt, I will love to see how you come up with a similar enumeration which will result in other than eleven third-reign heads.


In response to your side-distraction, provide me your evidence for any Ife-Yoruba tradition which states that there is a burial site for some alleged female Obas of Benin.

And if you can't provide any such evidence (and certainly you can't as such evidence exists only in yoir wild imagination), then you may wan't to consider quitting your habitual lying as a matter of urgency.

I am always here to evsntuallu burst your lies no matter how cool those lies have initially made you appear.

In conlusion:
Contrary to your wishful-imagination about Orun Oba Ado, I have in contrast cited historical information showing that the heads of third-reign Benin Obas were exhumed and taken to Orun Oba Ado site in Ife for burial.

I have also adduced corroborating archaeological evidence from excavation quest at Orun Oba Ado which not only confirmed the circular "burial pits", but also found them to be "eleven" --- a number which matches the number of third-reigns at Benin kingdom with astonishing accuracy.

See here:

As an important appendix to the foregoing, it is important to note that that I stress here that Frank Willett himself had indicated elsewhere that to disprove a local tradition of olden burial, what archaeologists look out for is the absense of burial pits.

In other words, archaeologists themselves understand that the absense of human remains is not the factor for absolute disproof, as they could have been put to other sacred use prior to modern times.

Cheers!

Shut up!!!

Be ashamed, you are still saying orun oba ado
Wtf is wrong with your brain na
The name edo was giving during the 15century
The supposed fairytale of benin meeting ife folklore had happened in the 10c, when edo was known as Igodomigodo and has not taken the title oba" the kings titled remained ogiso and not yet oba


Guy ife and benin had no connection we never meant

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


ghostwon
davidnazee
samuk


Please the yoruba brothers i mentioned should helpe me beg tao11 to stop is delusion of ife and beni. Having any connections we didnt have any

Orun oba is a flat lie from hell

gregyboy:


How do i contact him

This is his WhatsApp no. +234 813 672 2162 or 0813 672 2162

You can also find and reach him on Facebook.

TAO11:


Is this the best damage control stunt and excuses you can pull??

Even I myself am feeling pity for you right now. Sorry

Anyways, to knock of your self-inflicted delusions and excuses, get the following into your thick skull:

One of your two chief excuse and damage control attempt was of Oba Ewuare I's request to be burried at Esi.

Even if this is a historical information which you can substantiate, I will love to see your ingenious explanation of how it is a detterent to the tradition of exhumed the heads of third-reign Benin Obas for burial at Orun Oba Ado

You can do this!


The second chief excuse and damage control attempt you made was of the 18th king --- Oboa Orhogbua's alleged drowning and lost corpse.

And my response to this is simply that: This statement right here is false in its entirety.

Proceed to substantiate this statement in case you think you're correct.

In fact, the closest historical information that exists is of another Benin Oba who drowned. Yet, nothing is said (in any historical record) about the unwillingness of the Benin Navy to recover his floating body.


In summary, the underlying facts which deflate and undermine your overall excuses and damage control attempts are two, viz.

(1) The location of the Oba's burial (even if outside of Benin) is in no way a detterent to the tradition of exhuming their heads for burial at Ife.

(2) This tradition is done (according to historical information) only in every third-reign.

In light of this deconstruction and debunking of your chief excuses and damge control attempt, I will love to see how you come up with a similar enumeration which will result in other than eleven third-reign heads.


In response to your side-distraction, provide me your evidence for any Ife-Yoruba tradition which states that there is a burial site for some alleged female Obas of Benin.

And if you can't provide any such evidence (and certainly you can't as such evidence exists only in yoir wild imagination), then you may wan't to consider quitting your habitual lying as a matter of urgency.

I am always here to evsntuallu burst your lies no matter how cool those lies have initially made you appear.

In conlusion:
Contrary to your wishful-imagination about Orun Oba Ado, I have in contrast cited historical information showing that the heads of third-reign Benin Obas were exhumed and taken to Orun Oba Ado site in Ife for burial.

I have also adduced corroborating archaeological evidence from excavation quest at Orun Oba Ado which not only confirmed the circular "burial pits", but also found them to be "eleven" --- a number which matches the number of third-reigns at Benin kingdom with astonishing accuracy.

See here:

As an important appendix to the foregoing, it is important to note that that I stress here that Frank Willett himself had indicated elsewhere that to disprove a local tradition of olden burial, what archaeologists look out for is the absense of burial pits.

In other words, archaeologists themselves understand that the absense of human remains is not the factor for absolute disproof, as they could have been put to other sacred use prior to modern times.

Cheers!

Below is the link to the thread by one of your Yoruba compatriots here on nairaland who started the Orun Oba Ado fallacy in 2014.

It clearly states that there are two site, one for the Male Obas and the second for the female.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba

For a long time now, there has been the argument over the true rest place of the oba (kings) of Benin. While some, mostly of Yoruba descent believe the oba's decapitated heads are buried in Ile-Ife, hence the phrase, "orun oba Ado"; those of Benin descent believe their oba are buried in Benin.
I came across this two shrines in Gbelenkan Street, Ile-Ife recently with the inscription, "Orun Oba Ado" meaning the heaven of the kings of Ado (Benin). The one to the right when coming from Oduduwa College has the drawing of the head of a Benin oba with the inscription, owhviwo (male). The one opposite it that of the female.
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samuk:


This is his WhatsApp no. +234 813 672 2162

You can also find and reach him on Facebook.

You meam lancelot imaseun number

gregyboy:


(1) Igaa ogene never be ife are you that dumo or mischievous did you read any of the articles what made you believe the 2016 article was correct because its new"

(2) The benins described oghene as one who carried cross does your ooni know what is cross

(3) Historans even argue if those ife artwork was originally made in ife or they had bought it fron mechant or they even migrated to meet them m there

(4) The ife art works were not made by ife they probably had bought them from mechant

(1) Yes, I have read those articles since years ago. That's exactly how I know about the gradual trend of conclusions regarding the identification of the Ogane from the 1960s up till date.

You obviously just stumpled upon reading articles (thanks to the challenge from me), that's precisely why you think that solitary probabilistic conclusions from 35 to 50 years ago remains the same even till date among scholars.

No, there have since been a shift from the old conflicting conclusions. Scholars have now reached a consensus in present time.

In case you don't understand what is meant by consensus. It means that scholars have now stopped disagreeing with each other and have come to submit with one voice on an issue.

And the work I quoted is not an article. It is a book of history wherein the historian Adam Knobler did not merely put forward his opinion on the identification, but rather submits what "scholars" (plural) have now come to conclude --- that is, contemporary historical consensus.

See the work again below in case you missed something from how Adam Knobler puts it.

(2) No, the Oghene does not carry cross. No historian said that.

But yes, the Oghene (aka "Ooni of Ife" according to [i]Oba Eweka II[/I], according to [i]Oba Eradiauwa II[/I], et al.) --- in olden times --- dispatches a small brass cross, a brass helmet, among other things; as official emblems of office to the incoming Oba of Benin.

And evidence of the small brass crosses have survived both in bronze artefacts and and in history:

Historians have examined the bronze figures featuring small crosses and have found interestingly that all the figures have cat whisker tribal markings at the corner of their mouth --- a specific kind of facial marking that has been shown by scholars "to depict messengers from Ife."

Moreover, the actual use of the brass cross also featured even up till the reign of Oba Eweka II --- who makes use of the brass cross in a daily sacred devotion which he connects to the "Oghene of Ife" and other Yoruba kings.

Furthermore, evidence of the brass helmet mentioned in the early Portuguese account have also survived in artwork and in history.

The helmets constitute the corpus of Benin artefacts known today as Oduduwa helmet, and this helmets is still re-enacted till date during the important Benin ritual festival known as Oduduwa festival.


(3) Yes, historians have long, over time, debated each other on a variety of topics. Differences which they later came to reach a consensus on.

In fact, Leo Fronenius once concluded that Ile-Ife was, in fact, first inhabited by the ancient Greeks of the lost city of Atalantis.

He reached this conclusion because the Ife Art to him "eloquent of a symmetry, a vitality, a delicacy, of form directly reminiscent of ancient Greece".

However, scholars have long dismissed such care-free conclusions following a careful examination of the artefacts which shows them to be very reflective of an indigenois tradition.

In fact, further corroborating evidence has since come to light showing that the tradition existed in many other places throughout Yorubaland, e.g. Ijebu-Ode, Obo-Aiyegunle, Owo, etc.


Just to give you something to ponder on, some accounts of Benin history notes that the Benin kingdom had nothing to do with the Edos, but was esrablished by the son of a certain European.

Let me know why you will disagree with this account!


(5) Even though you yourself have admitted your cluelessness on your own assertion, I will like help you by affirming definitively that such view just doesn't exist anywhere in contemporary scholarship.

samuk:


Below is the link to the thread by one of your Yoruba compatriots here on nairaland who started the Orun Oba Ado fallacy in 2014.

It clearly states that there are two site, one for the Male Obas and the second for the female.

https://www.nairaland.com/1794927/ile-ife-final-rest-place-oba

For a long time now, there has been the argument over the true rest place of the oba (kings) of Benin. While some, mostly of Yoruba descent believe the oba's decapitated heads are buried in Ile-Ife, hence the phrase, "orun oba Ado"; those of Benin descent believe their oba are buried in Benin.
I came across this two shrines in Gbelenkan Street, Ile-Ife recently with the inscription, "Orun Oba Ado" meaning the heaven of the kings of Ado (Benin). The one to the right when coming from Oduduwa College has the drawing of the head of a Benin oba with the inscription, owhviwo (male). The one opposite it that of the female.
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How do you even dare bring a Nairaland thread before me and call it evidence --- regrdless of the tribe of whoever is there??

Hello, I asked for evidence of the tradition.

And by now (given the time you've spent with me) you should have realized that what you should produce is an academic documentation of such tradition. Gosh!

Oh, the Oba of Benin truly doesn't leave the Palace because every Tom, Dick, and Harry from Benin says that??

C'mon, that's a very weak and low one there from you samuk, you should do better than that.

gregyboy:


You meam lancelot imaseun number

No he is different from Lancelot Imaseun, the Nollywood movie maker.

His name is Imaseun Izoduwa. He is the leader of the group called Great Benin descendants (GBD) worldwide.

The group was created to unite and reconnect all those tribes that claim Benin descent across West Africa and rest of the world with Benin.

There were various tribes who didn't know how to reconnect with their Benin roots. This body is that bridge.

Him and his group are often invited by these various tribes for seminars and lectures.

He is easy to find online. Add his number to your WhatsApp and see his photo and use it to locate him on Facebook.

gregyboy:


Igaa ogene never be ife are you that dumo or mischievous did you read any of the articles what made you believe the 2016 article was correct because its new"

The benins described oghene as one who carried cross does your ooni know what is cross

Historans even argue if those ife artwork was originally made in ife or they had bought it fron mechant or they even migrated to meet them m there


The ife art works were not made by ife they probably had bought them from mechant

.
If you're conversant with linguistics you will know that 'Oghene' is the same thing as 'Ooni'. In some of the eastern Yoruba dialects, the 'gh' is silent or pronounced as 'h', for example, 'egho' is pronounced as 'eo', 'eho' which is money; 'ini' or 'ine' is 'one'; with the 'i' changed to 'ẹ́' in Yoruboid Igala.

if an Igala man or Edo person was asked to pronounce 'Ooni' and a European was asked to write it down in some centuries back, what you would get is 'Oghene'. One thing I noticed here is that we allow emotions to cloud our reasoning and judgement. @TAO11, you're doing wonderfully great with your submissions.

gregyboy:




[s]Shut up!!!

Be ashamed, you are still saying orun oba ado
Wtf is wrong with your brain na.
The name edo was giving during the 15century
The supposed fairytale of benin meeting ife folklore had happened in the 10c, when edo was known as Igodomigodo and has not taken the title oba" the kings titled remained ogiso and not yet oba.


Guy ife and benin had no connection we never meant[/s]

Is this the best contenion you Binis can put forward??

First of all no body said Orun Oba Edo.

What it's called is Orun Oba Ado.

And if you need evidence to prove that Benin[/b]used to be known as [b]Ado by the Binis themselves, then refer to the link below:


Regarding your contention on the Ife-Benin connection:

I am still waiting on you to explain why Oduduwa festival continues to be an important Benin ritual festival till date.

Also let's listen to what the currently reigning Oba Ewuare II has to say on whether or not there is an Ife connection:

TAO11:


(1) Yes, I have read those articles since years ago. That's exactly how I know about the gradual trend of conclusions regarding the identification of the Ogane from the 1960s up till date.

You obviously just stumpled upon reading articles (thanks to the challenge from me), that's precisely why you think that solitary probabilistic conclusions from 35 to 50 years ago remains the same even till date among scholars.

No, there have since been a shift from the old conflicting conclusions. Scholars have now reached a consensus in present time.

In case you don't understand what is meant by consensus. It means that scholars have now stopped disagreeing with each other and have come to submit with one voice on an issue.

And the work I quoted is not an article. It is a book of history wherein the historian Adam Knobler did not merely put forward his opinion on the identification, but rather submits what "scholars" (plural) have now come to conclude --- that is, contemporary historical consensus.

See the work again below in case you missed something from how Adam Knobler puts it.

(2) No, the Oghene does not carry cross. No historian said that.

But yes, the Oghene (aka "Ooni of Ife" according to [i]Oba Eweka II[/I], according to [i]Oba Eradiauwa II[/I], et al.) --- in olden times --- dispatches a small brass cross, a brass helmet, among other things; as official emblems of office to the incoming Oba of Benin.

And evidence of the small brass crosses have survived both in bronze artefacts and and in history:

Historians have examined the bronze figures featuring small crosses and have found interestingly that all the figures have cat whisker tribal markings at the corner of their mouth --- a specific kind of facial marking that has been shown by scholars "to depict messengers from Ife."

Moreover, the actual use of the brass cross also featured even up till the reign of Oba Eweka II --- who makes use of the brass cross in a daily sacred devotion which he connects to the "Oghene of Ife" and other Yoruba kings.

Furthermore, evidence of the brass helmet mentioned in the early Portuguese account have also survived in artwork and in history.

The helmets constitute the corpus of Benin artefacts known today as Oduduwa helmet, and this helmets is still re-enacted till date during the important Benin ritual festival known as Oduduwa festival.


(3) Yes, historians have long, over time, debated each other on a variety of topics. Differences which they later came to reach a consensus on.

In fact, Leo Fronenius once concluded that Ile-Ife was, in fact, first inhabited by the ancient Greeks of the lost city of Atalantis.

He reached this conclusion because the Ife Art to him "eloquent of a symmetry, a vitality, a delicacy, of form directly reminiscent of ancient Greece".

However, scholars have long dismissed such care-free conclusions following a careful examination of the artefacts which shows them to be very reflective of an indigenois tradition.

In fact, further corroborating evidence has since come to light showing that the tradition existed in many other places throughout Yorubaland, e.g. Ijebu-Ode, Obo-Aiyegunle, Owo, etc.


Just to give you something to ponder on, some accounts of Benin history notes that the Benin kingdom had nothing to do with the Edos, but was esrablished by the son of a certain European.

Let me know why you will disagree with this account!


(5) Even though you yourself have admitted your cluelessness on your own assertion, I will like help you by affirming definitively that such view just doesn't exist anywhere in contemporary scholarship.

Lol

Post the link of the adam knobler article you so love this guy because is work was 2016 lol

Post me the link of the articles


And again who are te the scholars you assume came to a consensus please post they are various works with the links to thier articles attached thanks


3. The artefact of the ife art work carrying crosses with helment and whiskers should also be posted

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

TAO11:


How do you even dare bring a Nairaland thread before me and call it evidence --- regrdless of the tribe of whoever is there??

Hello, I asked for evidence of the tradition.

And by now (given the time you've spent with me) you should have realized that what you should produce is an academic documentation of such tradition. Gosh!

Oh, the Oba of Benin truly doesn't leave the Palace because every Tom, Dick, and Harry from Benin says that??

C'mon, that's a very weak and low one there from you samuk, you should do better than that.

So the one gregyboy has been producing to show that the Benin/Ife story is a modern day fabricated history that was not previously known in early Benin history is not enough.

He has disproved and pointed out all the flaws in your sources and you still want me to produce more.

There are nothing to produce because there were nothing written/documented in Benin history about the Benin/Ife connections for the first 2 to 3 hundred years of European contact with Benin.

Do you want me to produce what is not there.

The Benin/Ife story is a lie stated here on nairaland by your Yoruba brother whose link I have already provided.

You guys are further propagating the lie using questionable sources.

Your Yoruba brother said that as of 2014 there were two physical sites in Ife bearing the inscriptions of Male and female Orun Oba Ado.

TAO11:


Is this the best contenion you Binis can put forward??

First of all no body said Orun Oba Edo.

What it's called is Orun Oba Ado.

And if you need evidence to prove that Benin[/b]used to be known as [b]Ado by the Binis themselves, then refer to the link below:


Regarding your contention on the Ife-Benin connection:

I am still waiting on you to explain why Oduduwa festival continues to be an important Benin ritual festival till date.

Also let's listen to what the currently reigning Oba Ewuare II has to say on whether or not there is an Ife connection:

What is oduduwa festival


Did you see me write

Orun oba edo

Youre fooling yourself bro go sleep

I had wrote orun oba ado and i mentioned the time benin was called edo and the time they changed from ogiso to oba, ife never encountered benin as edo or ado but Igodomigodo

To the Yoruba Brothers is this the best guy can bring to defend the yorubas

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

gregyboy:



Lol

Post the link of the adam knobler article you so love this guy because is work was 2016 lol

Post me the link of the articles


And again who are te the scholars you assume came to a consensus please post they are various works with the links to thier articles attached thanks


3. The artefact of the ife art work carrying crosses with helment and whiskers should also be posted

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

No matter all the sources you produce to disclaim the Benin/Ife modern day story, the Yorubas are not going to let go because it means the world to them.

Take Benin out of Yoruba history, what would they have as history.

But Benin can do without Benin/Yoruba/Ife stories but the Yorubas cannot.

The Benin history have so much more without the Yoruba connection but what do the the Yoruba have without Benin being infused into their history

You are literally begging them to drop the Benin/Ife story because it's a lie but they are not having it and letting go.