samuk:


So the one gregyboy has been producing to show that the Benin/Ife story is a modern day fabricated history that was not previously known in early Benin history is not enough.

He has disproved and pointed out all the flaws in your sources and you still want me to produce more.

There are nothing to produce because there were nothing written/documented in Benin history about the Benin/Ife connections for the first 2 to 3 hundred years of European contact with Benin.

Do you want me to produce what is not there.

The Benin/Ife story is a lie stated here on nairaland by your Yoruba brother whose link I have already provided.

You guys are further propagating the lie using questionable sources.

Your Yoruba brother said that as of 2014 there were two physical sites in Ife bearing the inscriptions of Male and female Orun Oba Ado.

The guy is a clown he post links when it favours him unfortunately he posted a link that even disagree to whatever he was saying he was eager to prove a point,

Thesame link he criticize now was the same link he used to counter me

Funny fellow tao11

samuk:


So the one gregyboy has been producing to show that the Benin/Ife story is a modern day fabricated history that was not previously known in early Benin history is not enough.

He has disproved and pointed out all the flaws in your sources and you still want me to produce more.

There are nothing to produce because there were nothing written/documented in Benin history about the Benin/Ife connections for the first 2 to 3 hundred years of European contact with Benin.

Do you want me to produce what is not there.

The Benin/Ife story is a lie stated here on nairaland by your Yoruba brother whose links I have already provided.

You guys are further propagating the lie using questionable sources.

Your Yoruba brother said that as of 2014 there were two physical sites in Ife bearing the inscriptions of Male and female Orun Oba Ado.

I think you're replying to the wrong person on the request for evidence.

Drink some water to calm your self down and then go back to see what evidence I requested of you in this specific regard.

Having said that there is nothing which your gregyboy has written that I have not replied and debunked right here. Where have you been?

Regarding the Ife-Benin connection, you can keep belieing your Obas who have claimed otherwise.

In fact, you can continue to belie your surviving traditions such as the Oduduwa festival which is still important as a ritual featival in Benin till date.

So, the evidence I had asked of you is the evidence for the supposed Ife tradition which you, smauk, had alleged that it says Benin had some female Oba(s)

Moreover, your scholar whom you noted was my "brother" (who may in fact have been another Benin propagandist ) forgot to mention anywhere that the "female" were kings, or even king's mother, or any identification whatsoever.

You obviously lie for a living!

gregyboy:



The guy is a clown he post links when it favours him unfortunately he posted a link that even disagree to whatever he was saying he was eager to prove a point,

Thesame link he criticize now was the same link he used to counter me

Funny fellow tao11

What link was it and what point was it? You've been avoiding this question since yesterday.

Screenshot the comment where I posted the link here, or paste the link to my comment where I posted the so-called self contradictory argument.

I am eagerly waiting, and if you can't then know that you've just been exposed as a notorious unrepentant liar like samuk himself.

Cheers!

gregyboy:



What is oduduwa festival


Did you see me write

Orun oba edo

Youre fooling yourself bro go sleep

I had wrote orun oba ado and i mentioned the time benin was called edo and the time they changed from ogiso to oba, ife never encountered benin as edo or ado but Igodomigodo

To the Yoruba Brothers is this the best guy can bring to defend the yorubas

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
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geosegun

You're incredibly slow.

Anyways what you said you wrote about Orun Oba Edo has been addressed because no one in Ife calls it Orun Oba Edo.

Rather, what we call it is Orun Oba Ado.

And I have shown from historical documents that Ado is an endonym for Benin.

See here:
https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/4#88240324

Having said that, regarding Oduduwa festival:

I am simply asking you that why then do the Binis continue to celebrate Oduduwa ritual festival if there was no connection??

Are you saying that the elders and the Oba of Benin included are all insane??

I asked you thjs question since over about month now and you're still yet to return with one word.

Does the attachment below look familiar??

gregyboy:



Lol, you keep citing egharevba works even when you know its wrong

The cited afc ryder works to prove a point even when you knew it was incorrect work
But now you coming to form saint because its hitting you hard

I notice your mentions had drooped since we began to question benin-ife relationship

Here is a new work that reevaluated ryders work

It was Egharevba who gave the listing of Benin Obas in his work which has become the palace's official listing till date. So tell me again about he's wrong.

Oh I know why, because he was uneconomical with the truth, and because he did part of his primary school in Ondo.


Anyways, Egharevba's work is described by world-renowned historians of Benin history as a pioneering classic.

It is therefore only in your wildest imagination that his work is "wrong".

I have addressed your citation of Ryder1965 on the identification of the Ogane, and I have shown that he himself admitted the uncertainty of his own conclusion.

And it is understandably so, because he and others at the time (including Thornton1988 whose work you attached, and who also clearly admitted the uncertainty of his conclusion too) were writting at a time when their is no scholarly consensus on the subject.

And evidence that there wass no scholarly consensus at the time is shkwn in the same work by J. K. Thornton where he noted --- on page 352 --- that:

"Since Ryder's article a number of scholars have taken up the debate, looking for evidence and for the most part failing to come up with either decisive support for Ryder's position or a convincing demonstration against it."

In other words, the identification of the Ogane of d'Aveiro's document was at that time an ongoing debate among different scholars.

However, in very recent times, scholars have now come to the conclusion the Ogane im d'Aveiro's account is none other than the Ooni of Ife.

Adam Knobler2016 mentioned this in his work (not as his personal conclusion, or some other individaul conclusion) but as the conclusion "now" reached by "scholars" in our present time..

Refere below again, for the umpteenth, time to see how he has put it as the conclusion NOW reached by SCHOLARS.

TAO11:


You're incredibly slow.

Anyways what you said you wrote about Orun Oba Edo has been addressed because noo one calls it that, what we call it is Orun Oba Ado.

And I have shown from historical documents that Ado is an endonym for Benin.

See here:



Having said that, regarding Oduduwa festival:

I am simply asking you that why then do the Binis continue to celebrate Oduduwa ritual festival if there was no connection??

Are you saying that the elders and the Oba of Benin included are all insane??

I asked you thjs question since over about month now and you're still yet to return with one word.

Does the attachment below look familiar??

Good to know that Oduduwa is only celebrated as masquerade in Benin. There are also other masquerades such as Ekpo that are also celebrated as well.

When Oba Ewuare 11 visited Calabar earlier this year, he informed the Calabar people that he would like the Calabar carnival to become part of the annual celebrations of his coronation.

So celebrating Oduduwa masquerades in Benin doesn't mean it was always like that.

No doubt Benin had relationship with various Yoruba tribes at different times but the Benin/Ife connections is a modern day forgery.

TAO11:


It was Egharevba who gave the listing of Benin Obas in his work which has become the palace's official listing till date. So tell me again about he's wrong.

Oh I know why, because he was uneconomical with the truth, and because he did part of his primary school in Ondo.


Anyways, Egharevba's work is described by world-renowned historians of Benin history as a pioneering classic.

It is therefore only in your wildest imagination that his work is "wrong".

Are you serious by saying Egharevba gave the palace the official listing of Benin Obas.

I told you before how an average Benin person can walk into his ancestral altar and count for himself the numbers of his ancestors and the history behind them.

Do you know that after the coronation of every Oba, there are various shrines across the land that have to be updated with the information in various forms.

samuk:


Are you serious by saying Egharevba gave the palace the official listing of Benin Obas.

I told you before how an average Benin person can walk into his ancestral altar and count for himself the numbers of his ancestors and the history behind them.

Do you know that after the coronation of every Oba, there are various shrines across the land that have to be updated with the information in various forms.

Yes he is!

He was the first indigenois Edo to write anything down of your history.

Listing here = writing with names in a way that it can ne counted.

It's not just to count some objects or tombstone.

samuk:


Good to know that Oduduwa is only celebrated as masquerade in Benin. There are also other masquerades such as Ekpo that are also celebrated as well.

When Oba Ewuare 11 visited Calabar earlier this year, he informed the Calabar people that he would like the Calabar carnival to become part of the annual celebrations of his coronation.

So celebrating Oduduwa masquerades in Benin doesn't mean it was always like that.

No doubt Benin had relationship with various Yoruba tribes at different times but the Benin/Ife connections is a modern day forgery.

Celebrate Oduduwa as a ritual festival in honour of the Oba's paternal ancestors.

The boldened above are the key words that made all the difference from your damage control stunt.

But you 'mistakenly' missed out the key words.


The Ife connection is not only there, it is in fact jealously preserved by the people who matter in Benin kingdom till date.

TAO11:


Yes he is!

He was the first indigenois Edo to write anything down of your history.

Listing here = writing with names in a way that it can ne counted.

It's not just to count some objects or tombstone.

Where did he get the names from if they were just objects and tombstones.

I guess he must have lived through the ages of all the Obas.

A well established system was already in place that Egharevba copied from.

I don't need Egharevba to list and tell me the names of my forefathers.

gregyboy:



The guy is a clown he post links when it favours him unfortunately he posted a link that even disagree to whatever he was saying he was eager to prove a point,

Thesame link he criticize now was the same link he used to counter me

Funny fellow tao11

Ask any sensible Bini Nairalander the following question: (assuming there is any)

What must I do if my claims are to be taken seriously??

And they "should" (if reasonable) give you thw following reply:

You must always provide evidence, proof, or reason.


Now, the onus on me is to provide that, and which is what I've consistently been doing.

I however have the latitude to decide the form which my evidence, proof, and reason will take as long as it is sufficiently verifiable.

The incompetence of the interlocutor at the other end is not my business.

TAO11:


Ask any sensible Bini Nairalander the following question: (assuming there is any)

What must I do if my claims are to be taken seriously??

And they "should" (if reasonable) give you thw following reply:

You must always provide evidence, proof, or reason.


Now, the onus on me is to provide that, and which is what I've consistently been doing.

I however have the latitude to decide the form which my evidence, proof, and reason will take as long as it is sufficiently verifiable.

The incompetence of the interlocutor at the other end is not my business.

Nigga your grammer ehnn i nor understand you ooh u win use am intimidate me abi you won use win the argument oga calm down if you made a sentence and your vocabularies are not understood then you didnt communicate or pass any message so take it low


Why would you post a link to what you already criticize

Guy go sit down nairaland vocalbularist

samuk:


Where did he get the names from if they were just objects and tombstones.

I guess he must have lived through the ages of all the Obas.

A well established system was already in place that Egharevba copied from.

I don't need Egharevba to list and tell me the names of my forefathers.

If what you mean by well established system is a detailed comprehensive listing (=writting) of Benin rulers; then the answer is a NO.

But if what you meant is that there were older people in Benin (who could recollect certain past events from memory) whom Egharevba carefully chose as his indigenous sources from whom he pieces infornation together, then the answer is a YES.

In sum, he was the first indigenous historian to document on Benin.

The Esekhure, (palace historians) and the Ihogbe (the priests of Ani shrine), among other notable Binis were his indigenous sources.

"Writing in 1960, R. E. Bradbury commended Egharevba for collecting his data "from well selected informants who had grown to maturity before 1897. The memories which they retained of past traditions had not had much time to be overlaid and distorted by pressing interest and the new problems of the modern world.""

Reference:
Uyilawa Usuanlele and Toyin Falola: "The Scholarship of Jacob Egharevba of Benin", History in Africa, Vol. 21 (1994), pp. 304.


So, not only did you need him, you already rely on him (without knowing) as there was no written documentation of your forefathers' name anywhere in Benin before he undertook the project in the 1930s.

gregyboy:



[s]Nigga your grammer ehnn i nor understand you ooh u win use am intimidate me abi you won use win the argument oga calm down if you made a sentence and your vocabularies are not understood then you didnt communicate or pass any message so take it low[/s]


Why would you post a link to what you already criticize.

Guy go sit down nairaland vocalbularist

This is the second day you've been parroting this lie despite the fact thet I've repeatedly disgraced you to provide evidence.

It must have become evident to all and sundry at this point that you lie for a living.

TAO11:


It was Egharevba who gave the listing of Benin Obas in his work which has become the palace's official listing till date. So tell me again about he's wrong.

Oh I know why, because he was uneconomical with the truth, and because he did part of his primary school in Ondo.


Anyways, Egharevba's work is described by world-renowned historians of Benin history as a pioneering classic.

It is therefore only in your wildest imagination that his work is "wrong".

I have addressed your citation of Ryder1965 on the identification of the Ogane, and I have shown that he himself admitted the uncertainty of his own conclusion.

And it is understandably so, because he and others at the time (including Thornton1988 whose work you attached, and who also clearly admitted the uncertainty of his conclusion too) were writting at a time when their is no scholarly consensus on the subject.

And evidence that there wass no scholarly consensus at the time is shkwn in the same work by J. K. Thornton where he noted --- on page 352 --- that:

"Since Ryder's article a number of scholars have taken up the debate, looking for evidence and for the most part failing to come up with either decisive support for Ryder's position or a convincing demonstration against it."

In other words, the identification of the Ogane kf d'Aveiro's work was at that time an ongoing debate among ddifferent scholars.

However, in very recent times, scholars have now come to the conclusion the Ogane im d'Aveiro's account is none other than the Ooni of Ife.

Adam Knobler2016 mentioned this in his work (not as his personal conclusion, or some other individaul conclusion) but as the conclusion "now" reached by "scholars" in our present time..

Refere below again, for the umpteenth, time to see how he has put it as the conclusion NOW reached by SCHOLARS.

The name of the scholars was not writing by adam knobler that would be a poor work you are citing my friend , scholars came into conclusion "
Who were the scholars not even one name did he cite, and you had the effontary to post such poor work for me as prove

Guy go sleep

The only thing meaniful in that article to you was that phrase and it is worthless to me because it is a poor work

Untill the writer list the other scholars who had disprove is work it is invalid


Post me the link of adam knobler article lets review it

Am calling your brothers in for this one


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

TAO11:


This is the second day you've been parroting this lie despite the fact thet I've repeatedly disgraced you to provide evidence.

It must have become evident to all and sundry at this point that you lie for a living.

Oga tell me


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

gregyboy:


Lol

(1) Post the link of the adam knobler article you so love this guy because is work was 2016 lol

Post me the link of the articles.


(2) And again who are te the scholars you assume came to a consensus please post they are various works with the links to thier articles attached thanks


(3) The artefact of the ife art work carrying crosses with helment and whiskers should also be posted

(1) You're so ignorant!

Adam Knobler's work which I cited is not an article. Gosh! It's a book for God's sake. I doubt if you know what the difference there is between either.

And I won't post you any link to the book, except a link to Amazon where you may pay the price for your copy of his copyrighted intellectual work.

https://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Diplomacy-Exploration-Expansion-Indigenous/dp/9004324895


And no, the identification of the Ogané in the work I referenced is accurate NOT MERELY because it was written in 2016 --- I think you're being deliberately ignorant now just to save face.

Rather, it is accurate because it describes the contemporary consensus reached today by scholars who have studied the subject.

This contrasts with all the different variety of opinions that have been put forward in the past, including Ryder1965's and Thornton1988's among many, many others.

For the umpteenth time, see how Adam Knobler puts it in the attachment below showing clearly that this is not his personal conclusion or some other individual conclusion.


(2) First of all: Contrary to your claim here, I did not assume that "scholars" have now come to that identification.

Rather, I was merely echoing the statement of a world-renowned scholar, Adam Knobler --- a statement which can still be seen in the attachment below.

It clearly didn't say "few scholars", neither did it say "some scholars", nor did it say "many" or "most" scholars. It simply puts it as "scholars" --- a direct expression of consensus and unanimity.

In the light of this, your request for the names of all present-day scholars (whom Adam Knobler alludes to) is not only a disgracefuly absurd face-saving attempt, it also makes no difference to the fact on ground.

And the fact on ground remains that scholars now in contemporary times identify the Ogané with the Ooni of Ife, as seen in the words of Adam knobler below.

(3) (i) No one mentioned that the the bronze artefacts depict people "carrying".

(ii) No one mentioned that these specific bronze artefacts are Ife's.

(iii) And lastly no one mentioned that these bronze artefacts has anything to do with the helmets.

You obviously need to urgently learn how to read!

Anyways, the following are my precise words:

"Historians have examined the bronze figures featuring small crosses and have found interestingly that all the figures have cat whisker tribal markings at the corner of their mouth --- a specific kind of facial marking that has been shown by scholars "to depict messengers from Ife."."

And the statement that "Benin figures" with "cat whisker facial marks at the corner of the mouth ... depict messengers from Ife" can be found, for example, in S. P. Blier's "Art in Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Vol. 45 (4), Winter 2012, p.77.

Sew the attachment below for one of such Benin bronze artefact. works

In summary, we see the following here:

i. Certain Benin bronzes bear small crosses.

ii. All Benin cross bearing bronzes have cat-whiskers markings.

iii. Benin bronzes with cat-whiskers markings (with cross or no cross) represent messengers from Ife.

I leave it to you to draw the obvious conclusion of of whether or not that there is a Ife-Benin connection through the subject of crosses, which you brought up.

The foregoing is aside from the fact that there is an important historical documentation which describes how Oba Eweka II makes use of one such small brass cross in a daily sacred devotion which he connects with the "Oghene of Ife" (as he 'named' the Ooni to Ward-Price) and other Yoruba kings.

Yet, the Portuguese document talks of small brass cross which the Ogané dispatches to Benin (through messengers) as part of the official emblems of office for an incoming Oba of Benin.

In the light of all these, can it be clearer whom this Ogané is?

May be it can, because scholars have now specifically and unanimously identified the Ogané as the Ooni of Ife.

gregyboy:



Oga tell me

You had been repeatedly lying for 2 days now, and still counting, that I provided you with certain links which contradicted me.

And when disgraced to produce the evidence that any such link was ever provided, the best you could do is to type "Oga tell me".

With this, I think ghostwon told his first truth ever when he wrote the following about you:

"You have problems using your brain. And you have an incredibly low self esteem."

gregyboy:


[s]The name of the scholars was not writing by adam knobler that would be a poor work you are citing my friend , scholars came into conclusion "
Who were the scholars not even one name did he cite, and you had the effontary to post such poor work for me as prove

Guy go sleep

The only thing meaniful in that article to you was that phrase and it is worthless to me because it is a poor work

Untill the writer list the other scholars who had disprove is work it is invalid


Post me the link of adam knobler article lets review it

Am calling your brothers in for this one[/s]

I have long known known you to be the same dummy yesterday, today, and forever; but ghostwon also confirmed it yesterday when he wrote the following:

"You have problems using your brain. And you have an incredibly low self esteem."

Regarding your absurd request for a listing of the names of all historians who have studied the subject in present time (whom you noted that Adam Knobler should have listed instead of writing "scholars" ) refer to my comment here:

https://www.nairaland.com/5713629/main-reasons-yoruba-not-enlisted/17#88133778

TAO11:


(1) You're so ignorant!

Adam Knobler's work which I cited is not an article. Gosh! It's a book for God's sake. I doubt if you know what the difference there is between either.

And I won't post you any link to the book, except a link to Amazon where you may pay the price for your copy of his copyrighted intellectual work.

https://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Diplomacy-Exploration-Expansion-Indigenous/dp/9004324895


And no, the identification of the Ogané in the work I referenced is accurate NOT MERELY because it was written in 2016 --- I think you're being deliberately ignorant now just to save face.

Rather, it is accurate because it describes the contemporary consensus reached today by scholars who have studied the subject.

This contrasts with all the different variety of opinions that have been put forward in the past, including Ryder1965's and Thornton1988's among many, many others.

For the umpteenth time, see how Adam Knobler puts it in the attachment below showing clearly that this is not his personal conclusion or some other individual conclusion.


(2) First of all: Contrary to your claim here, I did not assume that "scholars" have now come to that identification.

Rather, I was merely echoing the statement of a world-renowned scholar, Adam Knobler --- a statement which can still be seen in the attachment below.

It clearly didn't say "few scholars", neither did it say "some scholars", nor did it say "many" or "most" scholars. It simply puts it as "scholars" --- a direct expression of consensus and unanimity.

In the light of this, your request for the names of all present-day scholars (whom Adam Knobler alludes to) is not only an disgracefuly absurd face-saving attempt, it also makes no difference to the fact on ground.

And the fact on ground remains that scholars now in contemporary times identify the Ogané with the Ooni of Ife, as seen in the words of Adam knobler below.

(3) (i) No one mentioned that the the bronze artefacts depict people "carrying".

(ii) No one mentioned that these specific bronze artefacts are Ife's.

(iii) And lastly no one mentioned that these bronze artefacts has anything to do with the helmets.

You obviously need to urgently learn how to read!

Anyways, the following are my precise words:

"Historians have examined the bronze figures featuring small crosses and have found interestingly that all the figures have cat whisker tribal markings at the corner of their mouth --- a specific kind of facial marking that has been shown by scholars "to depict messengers from Ife."."

And the statement that "Benin figures" with "cat whisker facial marks at the corner of the mouth ... depict messengers from Ife" can be found, for example, in S. P. Blier's "Art in Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Vol. 45 (4), Winter 2012, p.77.

Sew the attachment below for one of such Benin bronze artefact. works

In summary, we see the following here:

i. Certain Benin bronzes bear small crosses.

ii. All Benin cross bearing bronzes have cat-whiskers markings.

iii. Benin bronzes with cat-whiskers markings (with cross or no cross) represent messengers from Ife.

I leave it to you to draw the obvious conclusion of of whether or not that there is a Ife-Benin connection through the subject of crosses, which you brought up.

The foregoing is aside from the fact that there is an important historical documentation which describes how [i]Oba Eweka II[/I] makes use of one such small brass cross in a daily sacred devotion which he connects with the "Oghene of Ife" (as he 'named' the Ooni to Ward-Price) and other Yoruba kings.

Yet, the Portuguese document talks of small brass cross which the Ogané dispatches to Benin (through messengers) as part of the official emblems of office for an incoming Oba of Benin.

In the light of all these, can it be clearer whom this Ogané is?

May be it can, because scholars have now specifically and unanimously identified the Ogané as the Ooni of Ife.

I told you to prove your point, by providing the book or article on hos work instead you came up
An amazon book, if yoy indeed want to prove your point, since you once read the book and you paid for it, then make screenshot of the pages

It wont hurt if you do it just do prove the point


For the record dummy i happened to just came across this mention now


Wtf that sculpture was not any messanger to ife benin never have any connections with any fucking ife

Get it go your fucking skul

TAO11:


I have long known known you to be the same dummy yesterday, today, and forever; but ghostwon also confirmed it yesterday when he wrote the following:

"You have problems using your brain. And you have an incredibly low self esteem."

Regarding your absurd request for a listing of the names of all historians who have studied the subject in present time (whom you noted that Adam Knobler should have listed instead of writing "scholars" ) refer to my comment here:

https://www.nairaland.com/5713629/main-reasons-yoruba-not-enlisted/17#88133778

ghostwon is just full of himself i try to maintain my cool, he said stupid things i didnt even want to drag with him, because i will be dealing with two fools you and him and that will be too much for me to handle,i decided not to respond to him afterward

Guy post screenshot of the works i guess you can even download the pages and send,
Exvept you are hiding something


If you aint send the pages for get it

TAO11, You are doing a wonderful job. You're not just giving them troubles by making them know the truth for what it is but also giving clearer picture of Ife/Benin connection to those who care to know.

What can be more interesting, you have pushed them so hard, lashed them so hard that they are now doubting what they used to think is a catholic truth. They now consider Ife/Benin relationship; the existence of Izeduwa, Oranmiyan, Eweka, as a subterfuge. What can be more hilarious! I guess in few months time, they will converge and come up with a fashion which will purport that Oranmiyan came from Igal/Nupe- after all, they are at ease knowing and accepting Ogene being referred to is an Igala/Nupe king.

Well done, bro.

gregyboy:

(1) [s]Fairytale boy... stop living in fairytale local and both foreign historians don’t agree that ife and Benin ever at one point had a connection the only connection we had with the yorubas are the ones we conquered, the prove is there for even the blind to see not the fairytale ife and Benin connections.[/s]

(2) Your fellow Yoruba brothers should ask you for pictures to make clarity easier let’s see it , atleast the excavation happened in the time of cameras so we get pictures from it

I missed this comment earlier.

(1) I have crossed out the first part of your comment because I have, on this thread today, done more than a debunking (if there is one word) of your revision of no connection.

On this same thread, I have repeatedly cited different testimonies and practices by some of your Obas which acknowledges early connection.

I have cited in relation to Eweka II when he told Ward-Price of hjs daily sacred devotion in connection who he called the "Oghene of Ife."

I have also also cited Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 "The Benin-Ife Connection" wherein he noted the Oghene of the time of Oromiyan and Eweka was the then Ooni of Ife; and that Ife is known as Uhe.

I have also attached a video where the reigning Oba Ewuare II is shown and heard to have said that "Oranmiyan from Ife ... (became) the first Oba of Benin"

May be I should add Oba Akenzua now (so that there is no gap in that genealogical line) where he attended what was termed "Conference of Yoruba Chiefs", in Oyo in the year 1937 with some other senior Yoruba Obas in attendance.

The introduction to the report of the conference notes:

"The chiefs were seated in horse-shoe formation with the Oni of Ife, as head lf the town from which all Yoruba have traditionally sprung, at the centre, and the Alafin of Oyo at the western and the Oba of Benin at the eastern end, an arrangement which gave general satisfaction."

Reference:
Conference of Yoruba Chiefs, Oyo, 31 March to 1 April 1937, mimeographed, n.d., p.1.

See attached below, a picture from that same day showing Oba Akenzua II and his brothers all seating to right and left sides of their dad, the Ooni.

Also important is the Oduduwa ritual festival which the Binis still enact till date in honour of the paternal ancestors of the Obas of Benin.

See 2nd attachment below, and stop see the reigning and past Obas of Benin idiots.

(2) samuk said Orun Oba Ado was excavated, and I (and my fellow Yoruba brothers have more reasonable evidence than pictures to) know that samuk is right on that specific statement.

Do you really insist that samuk is a fatuous liar?

TAO11:


I missed this comment earlier.

(1) I have crossed out the first part of your comment because I have, on this thread today, done more than a debunking (if there is one word) of your revision of no connection.

On this same thread, I have repeatedly cited different testimonies and practices by some of your Obas which acknowledges early connection.

I have cited in relation to Eweka II when he told Ward-Price of hjs daily sacred devotion in connection who he called the "Oghene of Ife."

I have also also cited Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 "The Benin-Ife no" wherein he noted the Oghene of the time of Oromiyan and Eweka was the then Ooni of Ife; and that Ife is known as Uhe.

I have also attached a video where the reigning Oba Ewuare II is shown and heard to have said that "Oranmiyan from Ife ... (became) the first Oba of Benin"

May be I should add Oba Akenzua now (so that there is no gap in that genealogical line) where he attended what was termed "Conference of Yoruba Chiefs", in Oyo in the year 1937 with some other senior Yoruba Obas in attendance.

The introduction to the report of the conference notes:

"The chiefs were seated in horse-shoe formation with the Oni of Ife, as head lf the town from which all Yoruba have traditionally sprung, at the centre, and the Alafin of Oyo at the western and the Oba of Benin at the eastern end, an arrangement which gave general satisfaction."

Reference:
Conference of Yoruba Chiefs, Oyo, 31 March to 1 April 1937, mimeographed, n.d., p.1.

See attached below, a picture from that same day showing Oba Akenzua II and his brothers all seating to right and left sides of their dad, the Ooni.

Also important is the Oduduwa ritual festival which the Binis still enact till date in honour of the paternal ancestors of the Obas of Benin.

See 2nd attachment below, and stop see the reigning and past Obas of Benin idiots.

(2) samuk said Orun Oba Ado was excavated, and I (and my fellow Yoruba brothers have more reasonable evidence than pictures to) know that samuk is right on that specific statement.

Do you really insist that samuk is a fatuous liar?

TAO11:


(1) You're so ignorant!

Adam Knobler's work which I cited is not an article. Gosh! It's a book for God's sake. I doubt if you know what the difference there is between either.

And I won't post you any link to the book, except a link to Amazon where you may pay the price for your copy of his copyrighted intellectual no work.




https://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Diplomacy-Exploration-Expansion-Indigenous/dp/9004324895


And no, the identification of the Ogané in the work I referenced is accurate NOT MERELY because it was written in 2016 --- I think you're being deliberately ignorant now just to save face.

Rather, it is accurate because it describes the contemporary consensus reached today by scholars who have studied the subject.

This contrasts with all the different variety of opinions that have been put forward in the past, including Ryder1965's and Thornton1988's among many, many others.

For the umpteenth time, see how Adam Knobler puts it in the attachment below showing clearly that this is not his personal conclusion or some other individual conclusion.


(2) First of all: Contrary to your claim here, I did not assume that "scholars" have now come to that identification.

Rather, I was merely echoing the statement of a world-renowned scholar, Adam Knobler --- a statement which can still be seen in the attachment below.

It clearly didn't say "few scholars", neither did it say "some scholars", nor did it say "many" or "most" scholars. It simply puts it as "scholars" --- a direct expression of consensus and unanimity.

In the light of this, your request for the names of all present-day scholars (whom Adam Knobler alludes to) is not only an disgracefuly absurd face-saving attempt, it also makes no difference to the fact on ground.

And the fact on ground remains that scholars now in contemporary times identify the Ogané with the Ooni of Ife, as seen in the words of Adam knobler below.

(3) (i) No one mentioned that the the bronze artefacts depict people "carrying".

(ii) No one mentioned that these specific bronze artefacts are Ife's.

(iii) And lastly no one mentioned that these bronze artefacts has anything to do with the helmets.

You obviously need to urgently learn how to read!

Anyways, the following are my precise words:

"Historians have examined the bronze figures featuring small crosses and have found interestingly that all the figures have cat whisker tribal markings at the corner of their mouth --- a specific kind of facial marking that has been shown by scholars "to depict messengers from Ife."."

And the statement that "Benin figures" with "cat whisker facial marks at the corner of the mouth ... depict messengers from Ife" can be found, for example, in S. P. Blier's "Art in Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Vol. 45 (4), Winter 2012, p.77.

Sew the attachment below for one of such Benin bronze artefact. works

In summary, we see the following here:

i. Certain Benin bronzes bear small crosses.

ii. All Benin cross bearing bronzes have cat-whiskers markings.

iii. Benin bronzes with cat-whiskers markings (with cross or no cross) represent messengers from Ife.

I leave it to you to draw the obvious conclusion of of whether or not that there is a Ife-Benin connection through the subject of crosses, which you brought up.

The foregoing is aside from the fact that there is an important historical documentation which describes how [i]Oba Eweka II[/I] makes use of one such small brass cross in a daily sacred devotion which he connects with the "Oghene of Ife" (as he 'named' the Ooni to Ward-Price) and other Yoruba kings.

Yet, the Portuguese document talks of small brass cross which the Ogané dispatches to Benin (through messengers) as part of the official emblems of office for an incoming Oba of Benin.

In the light of all these, can it be clearer whom this Ogané is?

May be it can, because scholars have now specifically and unanimously identified the Ogané as the Ooni of Ife.

That wss not an ife messanger ooh guy i go shout ooh

That sculpture is a 15century sculpture made by the benins at the time the Portuguese had made contact with the benins, the Portuguese never recorded account of benin and ife interactions

The Portuguese were told by the benins about oghene to be a powerful priest and this sculpture was made in 15c were the Portuguese never experienced any ife - benin interactions
The Portuguese noted kingdom benins had interactions with never at one tims theg mentioned uhe or ife in thief texf


Again afc ryder did wrote is works on document from Portuguese account and had discovered were the Oghene they benins mentioned could be located if anything was wrong in ryders work definitely no his location

Oga download pages of the book and send here
Accept thesame book would bite you if you post it lol like it did in ryders article


Atleast lets see three or four scholars who had agreed to adam knobler write up i never said you should post all scholars


Again how did Adam himself get into the conclusion that ife was oghene if its on that sculpture then is entire work was wrong, if we are to follow the Oduduwa myth benin only had connections with ife at 10c


Again why would benin call ooni oghene in the first place is ooni that hard to prononce, get it benin dont only reffered to ife as uhe strangers outside benin are calked uhe so oghene n uhe meant a different stranger from ife

TAO11:


I missed this comment earlier.

(1) I have crossed out the first part of your comment because I have, on this thread today, done more than a debunking (if there is one word) of your revision of no connection.

On this same thread, I have repeatedly cited different testimonies and practices by some of your Obas which acknowledges early connection.

I have cited in relation to Eweka II when he told Ward-Price of hjs daily sacred devotion in connection who he called the "Oghene of Ife."

I have also also cited Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 "The Benin-Ife Connection" wherein he noted the Oghene of the time of Oromiyan and Eweka was the then Ooni of Ife; and that Ife is known as Uhe.

I have also attached a video where the reigning Oba Ewuare II is shown and heard to have said that "Oranmiyan from Ife ... (became) the first Oba of Benin"

May be I should add Oba Akenzua now (so that there is no gap in that genealogical line) where he attended what was termed "Conference of Yoruba Chiefs", in Oyo in the year 1937 with some other senior Yoruba Obas in attendance.

The introduction to the report of the conference notes:

"The chiefs were seated in horse-shoe formation with the Oni of Ife, as head lf the town from which all Yoruba have traditionally sprung, at the centre, and the Alafin of Oyo at the western and the Oba of Benin at the eastern end, an arrangement which gave general satisfaction."

Reference:
Conference of Yoruba Chiefs, Oyo, 31 March to 1 April 1937, mimeographed, n.d., p.1.

See attached below, a picture from that same day showing Oba Akenzua II and his brothers all seating to right and left sides of their dad, the Ooni.

Also important is the Oduduwa ritual festival which the Binis still enact till date in honour of the paternal ancestors of the Obas of Benin.

See 2nd attachment below, and stop see the reigning and past Obas of Benin idiots.

(2) samuk said Orun Oba Ado was excavated, and I (and my fellow Yoruba brothers have more reasonable evidence than pictures to) know that samuk is right on that specific statement.

Do you really insist that samuk is a fatuous liar?

Guy you need serious slap and beating lol

So you agreed you misssd my mentioned, the mentioned i missed from gou, you resulted in raining insult on me, a fool indeed thats what i will call you

You need to slaps one for attributing oba ewuares end of year festival to Oduduwa festival
It is a festival we celebrate with new yams and end of raining season

3, our oba had be going on the history wrongly they have been mistaken another town thier ancestor had connection with as ife
Egharevba was the one who bought the ife story up just to merge edo history with yoruba as we were in the former western region


Send the book as pdf to me i wanna read the adam knobler book myself

babtoundey:
TAO11, You are doing a wonderful job. You're not just giving them troubles by making them know the truth for what it is but also giving clearer picture of Ife/Benin connection to those who care to know.

What can be more interesting, you have pushed them so hard, lashed them so hard that they are now doubting what they used to think is a catholic truth. They now consider Ife/Benin relationship; the existence of Izeduwa, Oranmiyan, Eweka, as a subterfuge. What can be more hilarious! I guess in few months time, they will converge and come up with a fashion which will purport that Oranmiyan came from Igal/Nupe- after all, they are at ease knowing and accepting Ogene being referred to is an Igala/Nupe king.

Well done, bro.

Alk goy saying his trash telk the tso11 to send me the book of afam knobler the book he attest to reffered ogene as ife

And yea we had no connection with ife, foreign account agreed to it
If you wanna argue it am here

You just came to say trash please go back and hide yourself in the background

TAO11:


(1) You're so ignorant!

Adam Knobler's work which I cited is not an article. Gosh! It's a book for God's sake. I doubt if you know what the difference there is between either.

And I won't post you any link to the book, except a link to Amazon where you may pay the price for your copy of his copyrighted intellectual work.

https://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Diplomacy-Exploration-Expansion-Indigenous/dp/9004324895


And no, the identification of the Ogané in the work I referenced is accurate NOT MERELY because it was written in 2016 --- I think you're being deliberately ignorant now just to save face.

Rather, it is accurate because it describes the contemporary consensus reached today by scholars who have studied the subject.

This contrasts with all the different variety of opinions that have been put forward in the past, including Ryder1965's and Thornton1988's among many, many others.

For the umpteenth time, see how Adam Knobler puts it in the attachment below showing clearly that this is not his personal conclusion or some other individual conclusion.


(2) First of all: Contrary to your claim here, I did not assume that "scholars" have now come to that identification.

Rather, I was merely echoing the statement of a world-renowned scholar, Adam Knobler --- a statement which can still be seen in the attachment below.

It clearly didn't say "few scholars", neither did it say "some scholars", nor did it say "many" or "most" scholars. It simply puts it as "scholars" --- a direct expression of consensus and unanimity.

In the light of this, your request for the names of all present-day scholars (whom Adam Knobler alludes to) is not only an disgracefuly absurd face-saving attempt, it also makes no difference to the fact on ground.

And the fact on ground remains that scholars now in contemporary times identify the Ogané with the Ooni of Ife, as seen in the words of Adam knobler below.

(3) (i) No one mentioned that the the bronze artefacts depict people "carrying".

(ii) No one mentioned that these specific bronze artefacts are Ife's.

(iii) And lastly no one mentioned that these bronze artefacts has anything to do with the helmets.

You obviously need to urgently learn how to read!

Anyways, the following are my precise words:

"Historians have examined the bronze figures featuring small crosses and have found interestingly that all the figures have cat whisker tribal markings at the corner of their mouth --- a specific kind of facial marking that has been shown by scholars "to depict messengers from Ife."."

And the statement that "Benin figures" with "cat whisker facial marks at the corner of the mouth ... depict messengers from Ife" can be found, for example, in S. P. Blier's "Art in Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Vol. 45 (4), Winter 2012, p.77.

Sew the attachment below for one of such Benin bronze artefact. works

In summary, we see the following here:

i. Certain Benin bronzes bear small crosses.

ii. All Benin cross bearing bronzes have cat-whiskers markings.

iii. Benin bronzes with cat-whiskers markings (with cross or no cross) represent messengers from Ife.

I leave it to you to draw the obvious conclusion of of whether or not that there is a Ife-Benin connection through the subject of crosses, which you brought up.

The foregoing is aside from the fact that there is an important historical documentation which describes how [i]Oba Eweka II[/I] makes use of one such small brass cross in a daily sacred devotion which he connects with the "Oghene of Ife" (as he 'named' the Ooni to Ward-Price) and other Yoruba kings.

Yet, the Portuguese document talks of small brass cross which the Ogané dispatches to Benin (through messengers) as part of the official emblems of office for an incoming Oba of Benin.

In the light of all these, can it be clearer whom this Ogané is?

May be it can, because scholars have now specifically and unanimously identified the Ogané as the Ooni of Ife.

Ryder admmited they were similar sculpture nupe areas that was embedded with cross
I guess you are using the facial markings to assume it was an ife sculpture

Lemme also show you a tribal mark of an igala man or the nupe tribal mark so believe me ryder was right to assume it was probably igala or nupe

gregyboy:



(1) [s]I told you to prove your point, by providing the book or article on hos work instead you came up
An amazon book, if yoy indeed want to prove your point, since you once read the book and you paid for it, then make screenshot of the pages

It wont hurt if you do it just do prove the point


(2) [s]For the record dummy i happened to just came across this mention now.[/s]


(3) Wtf that sculpture was not any messanger to ife benin never have any connections with any fucking ife.

Get it go your fucking skul[/s]

You're slow!

(1) I already made it clear in the comment to you that it's not an article but a book. And I noted that the only help I will offer you is to provide an Amazon link where you can pay for thw book.

Make sure you're reading what you're replying to. It makes you look m0r0nic for typing responses to comments you didn't read

Despite telling you that it's not an article, you are still here, for your gross and undiluted ignorance, typing "book or article" as you're still confused telling the difference.

You have to pay to access such works. If you do not want to pay, then your name is simply THIEF aka OLÈ!

And sending you links is not what proves a point.

I wonder who thought you in Benin that sending you links so you can fraudulently access copyrighted materials is how to prove a point.

No, I refuse to be lart lf that! Pay the price.

And no, to prove a point, the minimum required is to provide the quotes and the full reference.

But if you insist on being a poor church rat, then the most I can sort you with is a link to google books where you can access limited preview pages.

Luckily for you, it will also allow you to search only one small section at a time, for each time you type in keywords from your quote.

See quote attached below for a reminder. And let me know if you don't mind that, or you will wait till when you have enough spare money to access it legally.

(2) Well there are many money you need to find. I will be waiting for your responses.

(3) eeerrrrrmm, I think making a claim is different and distinct from proving the said claim.

May be you want to consider proving this claim despite the fact that scholarship have identified bronzes like these to be depicting messengers from Ife.

And for your imagination that there are no Benin and Ife connection, refer to one of the tons of debunking I have given you on this same thread on that point.

Sew this for example:

gregyboy:


[s]Guy you need serious slap and beating lol

So you agreed you misssd my mentioned, the mentioned i missed from gou, you resulted in raining insult on me, a fool indeed thats what i will call you

You need to slaps one for attributing oba ewuares end of year festival to Oduduwa festival
It is a festival we celebrate with new yams and end of raining season

3, our oba had be going on the history wrongly they have been mistaken another town thier ancestor had connection with as ife
Egharevba was the one who bought the ife story up just to merge edo history with yoruba as we were in the former western region


Send the book as pdf to me i wanna read the adam knobler book myself[/s]

Regarding Oduduwa festival in Benin kingdom, scholars said you are stupidly wrong.


They said it is a ritual festival in honour of the paternal ancestors of the Oba of Benin. See attacment below.

No contrary to your opinion that your ancestors are stupid. No, I think they're not.

It is you who are obviously stupid, not your ancestors.

gregyboy:



That messanger over there describe a typical benin dressing and it had no sign of Yorubaness in it, if indeed oni was ogene and he dispatch his servant to benin, then the servant shouldn't be dressed like that, like a benin towncrier, dont you think

No the facial marks is of the Yagba-Yoruba subgroup.

And according to Andrew Apter, a group of Yagba Yoruba occupy an Ife ward where the Iyagba dialect is still sometimes spoken.

Such cat-whisker marking is alien to Benin.

Moreover their is nothing Benin about a wrapper and a top. In fact.

Benin messengers go about naked without clothes.

Ijebu (at least) introduced a heavy presence of clothes to ancient Benin.

gregyboy:



Ryder admmited they were similar sculpture nupe areas that was embedded with cross
I guess you are using the facial markings to assume it was an ife sculpture

Lemme also show you a tribal mark of an igala man or the nupe tribal mark so believe me ryder was right to assume it was probably igala or nupe

That Mr. A has certain items, etc. is no evidence that such items is not foumd elsewhere.

And as I have shown such cat whisker marking are also common among the Yagba-Yoruba some group of which are said to occupy an Ife ward.

See my foregoing comment.

What is certain at least is that such marking is alien to Benin.

See also the Ife terracota head below: