LordReed:


No, the suggestion is for an interrelated social structure were cooperation is the key activity rather than a social order that creates stratification with all its attendant problems.

There is no social order that has no "stratification with all its attendant problems" my Lord. Friends fight, families too as do tribes, and scientists, it's afterall how humans resolve difference and create interrelated social structure, which is what "social order" is despite your veiled attempt to make it seem otherwise!

It is a pity evolution is slow but imagine no religion in the human dna. I bet "attendant problems" would have decimated more people than many claim religion has.

LordReed:
There were more than 12 disciples my dear buda but the 12 remained when things got tough. Indeed healers summon us to cooperate but are we listening?

As a wise person is written to have once said, "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+4%3A1-20&version=NIV]those with ears hear[/url]". Just that to hear is as camels in a needles eye.

Here's some reading. I resisted pointing bits out.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/137/Our_Nietzschean_Future

budaatum:

There is no social order that has no "stratification with all its attendant problems" my Lord. Friends fight, families too as do tribes, and scientists, it's afterall how humans resolve difference and create interrelated social structure, which is what "social order" is despite your veiled attempt to make it seem otherwise!

It is a pity evolution is slow but imagine no religion in the human dna. I bet "attendant problems" would have decimated more people than many claim religion has.


As a wise person is written to have once said, "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+4%3A1-20&version=NIV]those with ears hear[/url]". Just that to hear is as camels in a needles eye.

Here's some reading. I resisted pointing bits out.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/137/Our_Nietzschean_Future

You missed the point my dear buda. It is not that an interrelated social structure doesn't have problems, it's that it doesn't create stratification.

LordReed:


You missed the point my dear buda. It is not that an interrelated social structure doesn't have problems, it's that it doesn't create stratification.

I think it is you who misses the point, though I admit it will take patience to see what we mean.

Stratification is a societal norm that has existed from the beginning of time and not a thing humans created. It is a function of "Interrelated social structures" whether we participate in the creation of those structures or not, just that now, more people participate in the creation of the structures according to our individual preferences and prejudices, because, as is written, "we can only produce out of the abundances of our hearts".

My point is that you seem to blame religion (a destratificator, actually), for stratification, as if without religion (a never occured state of our being), we would not still be stratified.

Do you think Nigeria would be a better country if we had no religion to socially order us (as impossible as that is considering our historical development)? Or easier still. Are we not stratified by numerous religious unrelated things too?

budaatum:

I think it is you who misses the point, though I admit it will take patience to see what we mean.

Stratification is a societal norm that has existed from the beginning of time and not a thing humans created. It is a function of "Interrelated social structures" whether we participate in the creation of those structures or not, just that now, more people participate in the creation of the structures according to our individual preferences and prejudices, because, as is written, "we can only produce out of the abundances of our hearts".

My point is that you seem to blame religion (a destratificator, actually), for stratification, as if without religion (a never occured state of our being), we would not still be stratified.

Do you think Nigeria would be a better country if we had no religion to socially order us (as impossible as that is considering our historical development)? Or easier still. Are we not stratified by numerous religious unrelated things too?

Who says stratification has to be the norm? That is the point. You can create a social structure that is not stratified.

This is not about religion even though some religions have the capacity to be "destratifiers", the most popular ones however encourage stratification.

One thing is certain humans are adaptable. If we never even dreamt of religion we would have continued to progress as a social species. May be the federation called Nigeria would not have existed in such a world and may be it would have better for all of humanity generally speaking, I don't think it would be worse than what we have now.

LordReed:


Who says stratification has to be the norm? That is the point. You can create a social structure that is not stratified.

This is not about religion even though some religions have the capacity to be "destratifiers", the most popular ones however encourage stratification.

One thing is certain humans are adaptable. If we never even dreamt of religion we would have continued to progress as a social species. May be the federation called Nigeria would not have existed in such a world and may be it would have better for all of humanity generally speaking, I don't think it would be worse than what we have now.

There are no social structures in the absence of living things that socialize.
Hence,there is no stratification that has to do with social structures or there is simply no stratification in the absence of living things that socialize.

LordReed:


Who says stratification has to be the norm? That is the point. You can create a social structure that is not stratified.

Stratification does not have to be the norm. It just is. I will have my understandings of things, and you will have yours, and those possibly stratifying understandings will come into conflict as we decide to socialise.

Religion was one solution to stratification. If we get everyone in a society to believe the same, was the reasoning, things they will be less stratified. Education, which evolved out of religion, is another, intending to promote common history and understanding (or beliefs and assumption, in less developed societies). Another is what is called the Scientific Method. A common set of 'how we shall look at things' as adopted in the social structure of scienticist. But as we can see, they are not cures to stratification, but smootheners or means of handling stratification so we don't all annihilate ourselves.

Yes, we may one day be able to create a social structure that is not stratified, but we, or at least, I, obviously can't yet so must try harder.

budaatum:

Stratification does not have to be the norm. It just is. I will have my understandings of things, and you will have yours, and those possibly stratifying understandings will come into conflict as we decide to socialise.

Religion was one solution to stratification. If we get everyone in a society to believe the same, was the reasoning, things they will be less stratified. Education, which evolved out of religion, is another, intending to promote common history and understanding (or beliefs and assumption, in less developed societies). Another is what is called the Scientific Method. A common set of 'how we shall look at things' as adopted in the social structure of scienticist. But as we can see, they are not cures to stratification, but smootheners or means of handling stratification so we don't all annihilate ourselves.

Yes, we may one day be able to create a social structure that is not stratified, but we, or at least, I, obviously can't yet so must try harder.

Exactly my dear buda, we must try harder.

HellVictorinho:

There are no social structures in the absence of living things that socialize.
Hence,there is no stratification that has to do with social structures or there is simply no stratification in the absence of living things that socialize.

Thank you for this. Stratification is when I have no love for my neighbours and have enemies. If I but turn the other cheek that might change, but for now, we are stuck in the stratificated state of an eye for eye till Kingdom comes.

LordReed:


Exactly my dear buda, we must try harder.

But thats the problem. We, have not yet decided what we shall try, not to talk of trying it harder.

It's the reason for my adoption of religion. Its the only place love one another is being taught en mass, and on which every destrafication stands.

LordReed:


Exactly my dear buda, we must try harder.

Socialization also involves arguing, quarrelling and FIGHTING.
My friend is my enemy that pretends.
My enemy is my friend that pretends.

budaatum:

But thats the problem. We, have not yet decided what we shall try, not to talk of trying it harder.

It's the reason for my adoption of religion. Its the only place love one another is being taught en mass, and on which every destrafication stands.

Terrorists pray before killing.
That's religion too.
"Extremism" is just another English.

LordReed:


Exactly my dear buda, we must try harder.

Fighting is not always physical.
It doesn't always involve people harming themselves physically.
If two friends don't speak to each other for days,it means they are fighting.
But the matter could be settled by THEIR friend.
Then, they start all over again.

HellVictorinho:

Terrorists pray before killing.
That's religion too.
"Extremism" is just another English.

I bet you'd agree that one of the great human achievements is landing on the moon. Here's what those great scientists read when they got there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEmn0uaQCYc

Soldiers pray too before they go to war. Goes to show how humans call on greater powers than their own in order to achieve their goals. But are you perchance blaming the religion for the terrorist, Hell?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_8_Genesis_reading?wprov=sfla1

budaatum:


I bet you'd agree that one of the great human achievements is landing on the moon. Here's what those great scientists read when they got there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEmn0uaQCYc

Soldiers pray too before they go to war. Goes to show how humans call on greater powers than their own in order to achieve their goals. But are you perchance blaming the religion for the terrorist, Hell?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_8_Genesis_reading?wprov=sfla1

There are no greater powers.
But they terrorize in the name of these imaginary beings or in the name of religion.

God cares

HellVictorinho:

There are no greater powers.
But they terrorize in the name of these imaginary beings or in the name of religion.

Many actually seek, through religion, salvation from terror. Least I don't see the majority joining religion to terrorise.

Who are those you claim "terrorize in the name of these imaginary beings or in the name of religion"?

Lemmyo:
God cares

....TO NOT EXIST.

budaatum:

Many actually seek, through religion, salvation from terror. Least I don't see the majority joining religion to terrorise.

Who are those you claim "terrorize in the name of these imaginary beings or in the name of religion"?

SHEKAU and co,Google the rest.

HellVictorinho:

SHEKAU and co,Google the rest.

A few bad apples makes apples bad?

budaatum:

A few bad apples makes apples bad?

I know people share some food and other necessities in the name of religion.
But that's terrible.
Generosity shouldn't be based on religious stuff.
It should be based on mere sympathy by those who have extra food and other necessities.

HellVictorinho:


I know people share some food and other necessities in the name of religion.
But that's terrible.
Generosity shouldn't be based on religious stuff.
It should be based on mere sympathy by those who have extra food and other necessities.

Why else would I feed the hungry if not out of sympathy that they might starve?

Is have "mere sympathy" not the exact meaning of the religious teaching to "love your neighbours and your enemies moreso"? Do you expect me to have "mere sympathy" if I were not taught to have any sympathy whatsoever?

budaatum:

Why else would I feed the hungry if not out of sympathy that they might starve?

Is have "mere sympathy" not the exact meaning of the religious teaching to "love your neighbours and your enemies moreso"? Do you expect me to have "mere sympathy" if I were not taught to have any sympathy whatsoever?

Yes,cos wild animals also have mere sympathy.
Ants are not left out.
Google others.

HellVictorinho:

Yes,cos wild animals also have mere sympathy.
Ants are not left out.
Google others.

So, you think animals have the sort of "mere sympathy" that humans have, and sympathy has not increased amongst humans because we learn it somewhere?

budaatum:

So, you think animals have the sort of "mere sympathy" that humans have, and sympathy has not increased amongst humans because we learn it somewhere?

Human sympathy is still sympathy.
But the sympathy is conditional,anyway.

HellVictorinho:

Human sympathy is still sympathy.
But the sympathy is conditional,anyway.

So, your feelings of sympathy are conditional?
On what, might I ask?

budaatum:

So, your feelings of sympathy are conditional?
On what, might I ask?

Yours are also conditional.
Will you feel sympathy for a person that raped your daughters,stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends?

HellVictorinho:

Yours are also conditional.
Will you feel sympathy for a person that raped your daughters,stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends?

Would an animal? Would anyone? Yet, I am [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=NIV]being taught to[/url], if only I could learn.

Or do you think that it is a bad thing that I am being taught to have "sympathy for a person that raped your daughters, stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends"?

budaatum:

Would an animal? Would anyone? Yet, I am [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=NIV]being taught to[/url], if only I could learn.

Or do you think that it is a bad thing that I am being taught to have "sympathy for a person that raped your daughters, stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends"?

Stop quoting Bibles.
You can't.
That's psychology.
That's reality.

HellVictorinho:

Stop quoting Bibles.
You can't.
That's psychology.
That's reality.

Good thing is you'd most likely not have to forgive someone who "raped your daughters, stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends", because no one is likely to "raped your daughters, stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends". So, imagine that you psychologically learn to forgive minor trespasses against you, would you think it would be fair to say you would be more sympathetic than someone who wasn't taught to forgive minor tresspasses against them?

Kindly do not deign to assume you can tell me what I can or cannot quote. You are not my God, and even that does not command what I do.

budaatum:

Good thing is you'd most likely not have to forgive someone who "raped your daughters, stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends", because no one is likely to "raped your daughters, stole a lot from you and killed your husband or wife as well as your friends". So, imagine that you psychologically learn to forgive minor trespasses against you, would you think it would be fair to say you would be more sympathetic than someone who wasn't taught to forgive minor tresspasses against them?

Kindly do not deign to assume you can tell me what I can or cannot quote. You are not my God, and even that does not command what I do.

Were humans unforgiving before religion entered their heads?

HellVictorinho:

Were humans unforgiving before religion entered their heads?

Humans were less sympathetic before they learnt to be more forgiving. We were "eye for an eye" before we "turned the other cheek". We would not have needed to be taught the Golden Rule if we did not have to learn it. And one, if not, the more universal of ways to teach it has been religion.